Which is why I said you need to surround Melo with high efficiency 2way metric players. Billups is certianly a great example
mreinman wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:mreinman wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Melo averaged 27 pts and 6 boards in that playoff run and you are telling me Billups led that team...Come on...
Actually Billups was widely recognized as the leader of that team. He even finished well ahead of Melo in MVP voting that year.
does not really make a diff ... they both needed each other.
No one can play without teammates if that's what you're saying.
It was obvious to everyone who the most important player on that team was though.
I don't think that billups gets the team that far without Melo. He was pivotal to that run.
It is obvious that Melo needs a billups to succeed.
You mean if Melo had been replaced with a league min player? Of course they wouldn't have gotten that far. If Melo had been replaced with a smart max contract signing, who knows? If you look at Billups' career, his success clearly didn't depend on Melo.
gunsnewing wrote:Which is why I said you need to surround Melo with high efficiency metric players. Billups is certianly a great example
Another player comes to mind too!
gunsnewing wrote:Which is why I said you need to surround Melo with high efficiency 2way metric players. Billups is certianly a great example
Billups is/was a horrible defensive player..
Bonn1997 wrote:mreinman wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:mreinman wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Melo averaged 27 pts and 6 boards in that playoff run and you are telling me Billups led that team...Come on...
Actually Billups was widely recognized as the leader of that team. He even finished well ahead of Melo in MVP voting that year.
does not really make a diff ... they both needed each other.
No one can play without teammates if that's what you're saying.
It was obvious to everyone who the most important player on that team was though.
I don't think that billups gets the team that far without Melo. He was pivotal to that run.
It is obvious that Melo needs a billups to succeed.
You mean if Melo had been replaced with a league min player? Of course they wouldn't have gotten that far. If Melo had been replaced with a smart max contract signing, who knows? If you look at Billups' career, his success clearly didn't depend on Melo.
no ... but his success did not depend on league mins. When he won, he was surrounded by very good players.
during that Melo run, he was an excellent player and shined when paired with a smart and efficient leader.
Melo really does not make other better, he needs to be made better by others. That is not a knock on him as a player but as a leader. He is not a leader and needs to be led.
Analytics is over hyped...Is there is place for it, maybe but it's not the end all be all...It's doesn't paint a complete picture of who a player is..U have to see a player play his game and try to determine how he fits with other pieces based on your style of play..How anaytics play a role in that I'm just not sure...
holfresh wrote:Analytics is over hyped...Is there is place for it, maybe but it's not the end all be all...It's doesn't paint a complete picture of who a player is..U have to see a player play his game and try to determine how he fits with other pieces based on your style of play..How anaytics play a role in that I'm just not sure...
So that was the whole point you were trying to make? You're not really disagreeing with anyone here (maybe with the exception of the overhyped comment). With the exception of a couple of bad teams, everyone has analytics departments now and the only real discussion is which ones to use and how (not whether to use them)
holfresh wrote:Analytics is over hyped...Is there is place for it, maybe but it's not the end all be all...It's doesn't paint a complete picture of who a player is..U have to see a player play his game and try to determine how he fits with other pieces based on your style of play..How anaytics play a role in that I'm just not sure...
if a player has bad metrics such as tony allen, you need to watch him to figure out why his still has value.
most good players show good metrics.
And, players know how closely this is being tracked and they are adjusting their games accordingly.
mreinman wrote:holfresh wrote:Analytics is over hyped...Is there is place for it, maybe but it's not the end all be all...It's doesn't paint a complete picture of who a player is..U have to see a player play his game and try to determine how he fits with other pieces based on your style of play..How anaytics play a role in that I'm just not sure...
if a player has bad metrics such as tony allen, you need to watch him to figure out why his still has value.
most good players show good metrics.
And, players know how closely this is being tracked and they are adjusting their games accordingly.
Yeah players and the entire league has dramatically changed their shot selection because of the analytics movement.
mreinman wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Which is why I said you need to surround Melo with high efficiency metric players. Billups is certianly a great example
Another player comes to mind too!
Who's that?
JKidd
Don't know if you can quantify his impact on the 54 win team with metrics and stats. There's an example of metrics not being everything
mreinman wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Which is why I said you need to surround Melo with high efficiency metric players. Billups is certianly a great example
Another player comes to mind too!
Who's that?
JKidd
I meant Tyson but Novak and Kidd had good advanced stats that year too.
Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Analytics is over hyped...Is there is place for it, maybe but it's not the end all be all...It's doesn't paint a complete picture of who a player is..U have to see a player play his game and try to determine how he fits with other pieces based on your style of play..How anaytics play a role in that I'm just not sure...
So that was the whole point you were trying to make? You're not really disagreeing with anyone here (maybe with the exception of the overhyped comment). With the exception of a couple of bad teams, everyone has analytics departments now and the only real discussion is which ones to use and how (not whether to use them)
It's seems like the first thing you go to when evaluating a player..For me, its more important to know that Harden compiled his stats at the free throw line than during game action...Or he doesn't play well in the playoffs when faced with better defenders who had time to study his game...
gunsnewing wrote:mreinman wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Which is why I said you need to surround Melo with high efficiency metric players. Billups is certianly a great example
Another player comes to mind too!
Who's that?
JKidd
Don't know if you can quantify his impact on the 54 win team with metrics and stats. There's an example of metrics not being everything
he was the perfect metrics example ... he started the year and had a WS48 that was off the charts ... then, as he started stinking and his metrics sagged, so did the knicks ...
Bonn1997 wrote:mreinman wrote:holfresh wrote:Analytics is over hyped...Is there is place for it, maybe but it's not the end all be all...It's doesn't paint a complete picture of who a player is..U have to see a player play his game and try to determine how he fits with other pieces based on your style of play..How anaytics play a role in that I'm just not sure...
if a player has bad metrics such as tony allen, you need to watch him to figure out why his still has value.
most good players show good metrics.
And, players know how closely this is being tracked and they are adjusting their games accordingly.
Yeah players and the entire league has dramatically changed their shot selection because of the analytics movement.
I think that has more to do with the high school AAU level than the anytics crowd. High school prospects just don't focus on the mid-range game as much. Its more dunks and three point shots. The NBA has become an extension of that. That's why so many of these kids look lost when they're presented with structured offenses in the college and pro level. Tyreke Evans still hasn't learned to play without the ball in his hands. Those Pitino coached Knicks and Kentucky teams also showed how you could leverage the three point line to close large gaps of talent.
Bonn1997 wrote:mreinman wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Which is why I said you need to surround Melo with high efficiency metric players. Billups is certianly a great example
Another player comes to mind too!
Who's that?
JKidd
I meant Tyson but Novak and Kidd had good advanced stats that year too.
yeah ... I know what you meant :-)
Tyson did not help them much the following year with his uber stats.
I know .400 to .200
holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Analytics is over hyped...Is there is place for it, maybe but it's not the end all be all...It's doesn't paint a complete picture of who a player is..U have to see a player play his game and try to determine how he fits with other pieces based on your style of play..How anaytics play a role in that I'm just not sure...
So that was the whole point you were trying to make? You're not really disagreeing with anyone here (maybe with the exception of the overhyped comment). With the exception of a couple of bad teams, everyone has analytics departments now and the only real discussion is which ones to use and how (not whether to use them)
It's seems like the first thing you go to when evaluating a player..For me, its more important to know that Harden compiled his stats at the free throw line than during game action...Or he doesn't play well in the playoffs when faced with better defenders who had time to study his game...
Well I don't think I'll ever understand why you devalue points from the line. Points are points.
The playoff drop-off for Harden is a legitimate comment. It could be made for Melo too though.
mreinman wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:mreinman wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Which is why I said you need to surround Melo with high efficiency metric players. Billups is certianly a great example
Another player comes to mind too!
Who's that?
JKidd
I meant Tyson but Novak and Kidd had good advanced stats that year too.
yeah ... I know what you meant :-)
Tyson did not help them much the following year with his uber stats.
I know .400 to .200
.450 to .190 is a gigantic drop. I'm not saying it's 100% Tyson but you can't just dismiss the drop either
Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Analytics is over hyped...Is there is place for it, maybe but it's not the end all be all...It's doesn't paint a complete picture of who a player is..U have to see a player play his game and try to determine how he fits with other pieces based on your style of play..How anaytics play a role in that I'm just not sure...
So that was the whole point you were trying to make? You're not really disagreeing with anyone here (maybe with the exception of the overhyped comment). With the exception of a couple of bad teams, everyone has analytics departments now and the only real discussion is which ones to use and how (not whether to use them)
It's seems like the first thing you go to when evaluating a player..For me, its more important to know that Harden compiled his stats at the free throw line than during game action...Or he doesn't play well in the playoffs when faced with better defenders who had time to study his game...
Well I don't think I'll ever understand why you devalue points from the line. Points are points.
The playoff drop-off for Harden is a legitimate comment. It could be made for Melo too though.
Points at the line cannot always be counted on...He is also a flopper, which can't always be counted on...He seems mentally weak in a sense because his game changes in the playoffs against good defenders...Well for me, Melo needs help in the playoffs..He is often double teamed in the playoffs...This is what I see..When he had help in Denver his team went further..He had some help in NY we got to the second round before everyone else imploded...I would love to see Melo with two more players like LeBron and Durant has...
mreinman wrote:gunsnewing wrote:mreinman wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Which is why I said you need to surround Melo with high efficiency metric players. Billups is certianly a great example
Another player comes to mind too!
Who's that?
JKidd
Don't know if you can quantify his impact on the 54 win team with metrics and stats. There's an example of metrics not being everything
he was the perfect metrics example ... he started the year and had a WS48 that was off the charts ... then, as he started stinking and his metrics sagged, so did the knicks ...
Fair enough. You saw how valuable his 48ws was early on unfortunaty it wasn't sustainable from a 49yr old
