Knicks · Why? (Will Leitch, NY Magazine) (page 1)

Why pay max value for an inefficient “star” like Carmelo Anthony when you can get a more streamlined, less possession-hogging player for far cheaper and surround him with more talented role players? The idea of depending on a star makes sense in a playground game, but with the NBA’s increased specialization, access to and understanding of video data, and reallotment of resources, stars just get in the way of the flow.

The old-school Real Men Take the Big Shot Even If They’re Double-­Teamed model may have felt more “masculine” (or something), and made Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant feel like alpha dogs, but having your best player throw up any old shot just because he’s your best player, rather than surrounding him with complementary pieces, is becoming as passé as the peach basket.

(Ask Knicks fans how having a shot-happy star has turned out.) The game has returned to its roots: It’s not supposed to be about the stars. It’s supposed to be about the game.

Our Prez is a firm believer in the idea that teams need to share the ball and not just rely on one player all the time. I think he also knows that it's important to have that Wild card in a Star player who can carry a team at any moment or stretches of a game or season. It's an X factor that can't be underestimated. Now in terms of building a very efficient team around a player like Melo that is already under way. We all know the parameters of what Phil is likely to be looking for. We know his history and his system as well as his philosophy on players. Now we have to wait and see who he's able to actually get.

In Phil's own words he doesn't want Melo to be a one man show. Phil has expressed quite clearly that he wants a well balanced roster that can function on a high level similar to the Spurs or Hawks. That's a process that will take time since it's also about developing players within the system and culture. Phil has already started this process and hopefully it will produce good results down the line. However, it's a long view of team building and building sustainability in an organization. Phil is doing more for this franchise than just collecting a check. It may not all be visible right now but it should pay dividends over time.

misterearl wrote:Why pay max value for an inefficient “star” like Carmelo Anthony when you can get a more streamlined, less possession-hogging player for far cheaper and surround him with more talented role players? The idea of depending on a star makes sense in a playground game, but with the NBA’s increased specialization, access to and understanding of video data, and reallotment of resources, stars just get in the way of the flow.

The old-school Real Men Take the Big Shot Even If They’re Double-­Teamed model may have felt more “masculine” (or something), and made Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant feel like alpha dogs, but having your best player throw up any old shot just because he’s your best player, rather than surrounding him with complementary pieces, is becoming as passé as the peach basket.

(Ask Knicks fans how having a shot-happy star has turned out.) The game has returned to its roots: It’s not supposed to be about the stars. It’s supposed to be about the game.

The game has always been about its stars..When did it change?.How many times did Bron go to the finals the last 7/8 years?

And what's the point of the article..What GM on this planet is trying to build around one star and have one guy take all the shots..like Phil's goal to to surround Melo with d-leaguers and watch him shoot...

misterearl wrote:Why pay max value for an inefficient “star” like Carmelo Anthony when you can get a more streamlined, less possession-hogging player for far cheaper and surround him with more talented role players? The idea of depending on a star makes sense in a playground game, but with the NBA’s increased specialization, access to and understanding of video data, and reallotment of resources, stars just get in the way of the flow.

The old-school Real Men Take the Big Shot Even If They’re Double-­Teamed model may have felt more “masculine” (or something), and made Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant feel like alpha dogs, but having your best player throw up any old shot just because he’s your best player, rather than surrounding him with complementary pieces, is becoming as passé as the peach basket.

(Ask Knicks fans how having a shot-happy star has turned out.) The game has returned to its roots: It’s not supposed to be about the stars. It’s supposed to be about the game.

i do think we can win with melo but i dont think it can be built around him. Ive said before i think he is the perfect second guy who can provide the scoring. The problem with melo is that its tough to convince him to take a step back

during his tenure here, if the knicks are to improve, it will be because this dude will be coming off the bench. not in a ginobili or havlicek sense but in a mark aguirre, vinnie johnson sense.

Could you post a link to the article. Thanks.

dk7th wrote:during his tenure here, if the knicks are to improve, it will be because this dude will be coming off the bench. not in a ginobili or havlicek sense but in a mark aguirre, vinnie johnson sense.

The team will improve when Phil can bring in starting quality players to play next to Melo. We need a starting unit which currently we don't have. We have role players who are in the SL but they aren't starting caliber players. It's just that simple. All the Melo hate is just stupid. It's gonna be up to Phil to draft well and bring in quality players to build an NBA level starting 5. If we're fortunate in the draft we can get a player who can contribute even in their rookie season. Then we're talking about 3 more guys who deserve to start on an NBA roster. We have the Cap Space to bring in 2-3 quality Free Agents. People can keep talking like this is some kind of impossible project just cuz Melo is here, but it's really not.

nixluva wrote:Our Prez is a firm believer in the idea that teams need to share the ball and not just rely on one player all the time. I think he also knows that it's important to have that Wild card in a Star player who can carry a team at any moment or stretches of a game or season. It's an X factor that can't be underestimated. Now in terms of building a very efficient team around a player like Melo that is already under way. We all know the parameters of what Phil is likely to be looking for. We know his history and his system as well as his philosophy on players. Now we have to wait and see who he's able to actually get.

In Phil's own words he doesn't want Melo to be a one man show. Phil has expressed quite clearly that he wants a well balanced roster that can function on a high level similar to the Spurs or Hawks. That's a process that will take time since it's also about developing players within the system and culture. Phil has already started this process and hopefully it will produce good results down the line. However, it's a long view of team building and building sustainability in an organization. Phil is doing more for this franchise than just collecting a check. It may not all be visible right now but it should pay dividends over time.

Could not agree more. Thanks for spelling it out so plainly and clearly. Looking forward to this rebuild. Starting off with a top 3 pick will be amazing. Melo's "X" factor will be important in playoffs.

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:during his tenure here, if the knicks are to improve, it will be because this dude will be coming off the bench. not in a ginobili or havlicek sense but in a mark aguirre, vinnie johnson sense.

The team will improve when Phil can bring in starting quality players to play next to Melo. We need a starting unit which currently we don't have. We have role players who are in the SL but they aren't starting caliber players. It's just that simple. All the Melo hate is just stupid. It's gonna be up to Phil to draft well and bring in quality players to build an NBA level starting 5. If we're fortunate in the draft we can get a player who can contribute even in their rookie season. Then we're talking about 3 more guys who deserve to start on an NBA roster. We have the Cap Space to bring in 2-3 quality Free Agents. People can keep talking like this is some kind of impossible project just cuz Melo is here, but it's really not.

If it's not impossible please identify the three, realistic free agents we'll sign with $27M-ish in cap space.

VCoug wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:during his tenure here, if the knicks are to improve, it will be because this dude will be coming off the bench. not in a ginobili or havlicek sense but in a mark aguirre, vinnie johnson sense.

The team will improve when Phil can bring in starting quality players to play next to Melo. We need a starting unit which currently we don't have. We have role players who are in the SL but they aren't starting caliber players. It's just that simple. All the Melo hate is just stupid. It's gonna be up to Phil to draft well and bring in quality players to build an NBA level starting 5. If we're fortunate in the draft we can get a player who can contribute even in their rookie season. Then we're talking about 3 more guys who deserve to start on an NBA roster. We have the Cap Space to bring in 2-3 quality Free Agents. People can keep talking like this is some kind of impossible project just cuz Melo is here, but it's really not.

If it's not impossible please identify the three, realistic free agents we'll sign with $27M-ish in cap space.

I don't think that is possible in February.

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:during his tenure here, if the knicks are to improve, it will be because this dude will be coming off the bench. not in a ginobili or havlicek sense but in a mark aguirre, vinnie johnson sense.

The team will improve when Phil can bring in starting quality players to play next to Melo. We need a starting unit which currently we don't have. We have role players who are in the SL but they aren't starting caliber players. It's just that simple. All the Melo hate is just stupid. It's gonna be up to Phil to draft well and bring in quality players to build an NBA level starting 5. If we're fortunate in the draft we can get a player who can contribute even in their rookie season. Then we're talking about 3 more guys who deserve to start on an NBA roster. We have the Cap Space to bring in 2-3 quality Free Agents. People can keep talking like this is some kind of impossible project just cuz Melo is here, but it's really not.

there is no hate in my post. i have seen him play and have understood quite clearly both from the eye test and the advanced stats: he is best-suited to come off the bench for the sake of the overall health of a championship-caliber team. the larger his role the greater the burden he puts on his "supporting cast." therefore he needs to be the supporting cast in order to minimize the negative effect he has on others.

the only problem is he is being paid like a marquee player, which is going to make it almost impossible to assemble a team that can truly contend during the course of his latest windfall. he should have taken a significant paycut if he wanted to win here in the next several years, and even then it would be an uphill battle.

CrushAlot wrote:

VCoug wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:during his tenure here, if the knicks are to improve, it will be because this dude will be coming off the bench. not in a ginobili or havlicek sense but in a mark aguirre, vinnie johnson sense.

The team will improve when Phil can bring in starting quality players to play next to Melo. We need a starting unit which currently we don't have. We have role players who are in the SL but they aren't starting caliber players. It's just that simple. All the Melo hate is just stupid. It's gonna be up to Phil to draft well and bring in quality players to build an NBA level starting 5. If we're fortunate in the draft we can get a player who can contribute even in their rookie season. Then we're talking about 3 more guys who deserve to start on an NBA roster. We have the Cap Space to bring in 2-3 quality Free Agents. People can keep talking like this is some kind of impossible project just cuz Melo is here, but it's really not.

If it's not impossible please identify the three, realistic free agents we'll sign with $27M-ish in cap space.

I don't think that is possible in February.

It's not impossible. Just name three guys you think we have a chance to sign this Summer with the cap space we have.

VCoug wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

VCoug wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:during his tenure here, if the knicks are to improve, it will be because this dude will be coming off the bench. not in a ginobili or havlicek sense but in a mark aguirre, vinnie johnson sense.

The team will improve when Phil can bring in starting quality players to play next to Melo. We need a starting unit which currently we don't have. We have role players who are in the SL but they aren't starting caliber players. It's just that simple. All the Melo hate is just stupid. It's gonna be up to Phil to draft well and bring in quality players to build an NBA level starting 5. If we're fortunate in the draft we can get a player who can contribute even in their rookie season. Then we're talking about 3 more guys who deserve to start on an NBA roster. We have the Cap Space to bring in 2-3 quality Free Agents. People can keep talking like this is some kind of impossible project just cuz Melo is here, but it's really not.

If it's not impossible please identify the three, realistic free agents we'll sign with $27M-ish in cap space.

I don't think that is possible in February.

It's not impossible. Just name three guys you think we have a chance to sign this Summer with the cap space we have.

I wasn't aware that hoopshype had a list of upcoming free agents along with rumors specific to each player. Sounds like Tobias Harris could be one of the three if the knicks want him.

http://hoopshype.com/free_agency_2015.htm

http://hoopshype.com/free_agency_2015.ht...

CrushAlot wrote:

VCoug wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

VCoug wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:during his tenure here, if the knicks are to improve, it will be because this dude will be coming off the bench. not in a ginobili or havlicek sense but in a mark aguirre, vinnie johnson sense.

The team will improve when Phil can bring in starting quality players to play next to Melo. We need a starting unit which currently we don't have. We have role players who are in the SL but they aren't starting caliber players. It's just that simple. All the Melo hate is just stupid. It's gonna be up to Phil to draft well and bring in quality players to build an NBA level starting 5. If we're fortunate in the draft we can get a player who can contribute even in their rookie season. Then we're talking about 3 more guys who deserve to start on an NBA roster. We have the Cap Space to bring in 2-3 quality Free Agents. People can keep talking like this is some kind of impossible project just cuz Melo is here, but it's really not.

If it's not impossible please identify the three, realistic free agents we'll sign with $27M-ish in cap space.

I don't think that is possible in February.

It's not impossible. Just name three guys you think we have a chance to sign this Summer with the cap space we have.

I wasn't aware that hoopshype had a list of upcoming free agents along with rumors specific to each player. Sounds like Tobias Harris could be one of the three if the knicks want him.

http://hoopshype.com/free_agency_2015.htm

http://hoopshype.com/free_agency_2015.ht...

Harris will be a restricted free agent; how much are you going to offer so Orlando doesn't match?

VCoug wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

VCoug wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

VCoug wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:during his tenure here, if the knicks are to improve, it will be because this dude will be coming off the bench. not in a ginobili or havlicek sense but in a mark aguirre, vinnie johnson sense.

The team will improve when Phil can bring in starting quality players to play next to Melo. We need a starting unit which currently we don't have. We have role players who are in the SL but they aren't starting caliber players. It's just that simple. All the Melo hate is just stupid. It's gonna be up to Phil to draft well and bring in quality players to build an NBA level starting 5. If we're fortunate in the draft we can get a player who can contribute even in their rookie season. Then we're talking about 3 more guys who deserve to start on an NBA roster. We have the Cap Space to bring in 2-3 quality Free Agents. People can keep talking like this is some kind of impossible project just cuz Melo is here, but it's really not.

If it's not impossible please identify the three, realistic free agents we'll sign with $27M-ish in cap space.

I don't think that is possible in February.

It's not impossible. Just name three guys you think we have a chance to sign this Summer with the cap space we have.

I wasn't aware that hoopshype had a list of upcoming free agents along with rumors specific to each player. Sounds like Tobias Harris could be one of the three if the knicks want him.

http://hoopshype.com/free_agency_2015.htm

http://hoopshype.com/free_agency_2015.ht...

Harris will be a restricted free agent; how much are you going to offer so Orlando doesn't match?

There is so much that has to shake out that I don't think you can predict who the Knicks are going to pursue as I posted earlier. I think after the draft things will become more clear. I mentioned Harris because on the link I posted he had friends quoted twice that said he wants to be in NY. Not even sure if he is a good fit with Melo. Who are you thinking they are going to sign?

VCoug wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

VCoug wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

VCoug wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:during his tenure here, if the knicks are to improve, it will be because this dude will be coming off the bench. not in a ginobili or havlicek sense but in a mark aguirre, vinnie johnson sense.

The team will improve when Phil can bring in starting quality players to play next to Melo. We need a starting unit which currently we don't have. We have role players who are in the SL but they aren't starting caliber players. It's just that simple. All the Melo hate is just stupid. It's gonna be up to Phil to draft well and bring in quality players to build an NBA level starting 5. If we're fortunate in the draft we can get a player who can contribute even in their rookie season. Then we're talking about 3 more guys who deserve to start on an NBA roster. We have the Cap Space to bring in 2-3 quality Free Agents. People can keep talking like this is some kind of impossible project just cuz Melo is here, but it's really not.

If it's not impossible please identify the three, realistic free agents we'll sign with $27M-ish in cap space.

I don't think that is possible in February.

It's not impossible. Just name three guys you think we have a chance to sign this Summer with the cap space we have.

I wasn't aware that hoopshype had a list of upcoming free agents along with rumors specific to each player. Sounds like Tobias Harris could be one of the three if the knicks want him.

http://hoopshype.com/free_agency_2015.htm

http://hoopshype.com/free_agency_2015.ht...

Harris will be a restricted free agent; how much are you going to offer so Orlando doesn't match?

6-8 million per? ... but only if phil believes that he can make him far more productive.

now, I don't really see anything that he excels at.

This is the kind of player that if a GM signs, it could make or break him.

right now, it seems like he is a big question mark that I personally would not take a chance on.

mreinman wrote:

VCoug wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

VCoug wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

VCoug wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:during his tenure here, if the knicks are to improve, it will be because this dude will be coming off the bench. not in a ginobili or havlicek sense but in a mark aguirre, vinnie johnson sense.

The team will improve when Phil can bring in starting quality players to play next to Melo. We need a starting unit which currently we don't have. We have role players who are in the SL but they aren't starting caliber players. It's just that simple. All the Melo hate is just stupid. It's gonna be up to Phil to draft well and bring in quality players to build an NBA level starting 5. If we're fortunate in the draft we can get a player who can contribute even in their rookie season. Then we're talking about 3 more guys who deserve to start on an NBA roster. We have the Cap Space to bring in 2-3 quality Free Agents. People can keep talking like this is some kind of impossible project just cuz Melo is here, but it's really not.

If it's not impossible please identify the three, realistic free agents we'll sign with $27M-ish in cap space.

I don't think that is possible in February.

It's not impossible. Just name three guys you think we have a chance to sign this Summer with the cap space we have.

I wasn't aware that hoopshype had a list of upcoming free agents along with rumors specific to each player. Sounds like Tobias Harris could be one of the three if the knicks want him.

http://hoopshype.com/free_agency_2015.htm

http://hoopshype.com/free_agency_2015.ht...

Harris will be a restricted free agent; how much are you going to offer so Orlando doesn't match?

6-8 million per? ... but only if phil believes that he can make him far more productive.

now, I don't really see anything that he excels at.

This is the kind of player that if a GM signs, it could make or break him.

right now, it seems like he is a big question mark that I personally would not take a chance on.

But if we're only paying him $6M-$8M isn't Orlando just going to match? That looks like a pretty reasonable salary to me. In my mind, if we want to sign Tobias Harris we need to give him something like $12M/year.

VCoug wrote:

mreinman wrote:

VCoug wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

VCoug wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

VCoug wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:during his tenure here, if the knicks are to improve, it will be because this dude will be coming off the bench. not in a ginobili or havlicek sense but in a mark aguirre, vinnie johnson sense.

The team will improve when Phil can bring in starting quality players to play next to Melo. We need a starting unit which currently we don't have. We have role players who are in the SL but they aren't starting caliber players. It's just that simple. All the Melo hate is just stupid. It's gonna be up to Phil to draft well and bring in quality players to build an NBA level starting 5. If we're fortunate in the draft we can get a player who can contribute even in their rookie season. Then we're talking about 3 more guys who deserve to start on an NBA roster. We have the Cap Space to bring in 2-3 quality Free Agents. People can keep talking like this is some kind of impossible project just cuz Melo is here, but it's really not.

If it's not impossible please identify the three, realistic free agents we'll sign with $27M-ish in cap space.

I don't think that is possible in February.

It's not impossible. Just name three guys you think we have a chance to sign this Summer with the cap space we have.

I wasn't aware that hoopshype had a list of upcoming free agents along with rumors specific to each player. Sounds like Tobias Harris could be one of the three if the knicks want him.

http://hoopshype.com/free_agency_2015.htm

http://hoopshype.com/free_agency_2015.ht...

Harris will be a restricted free agent; how much are you going to offer so Orlando doesn't match?

6-8 million per? ... but only if phil believes that he can make him far more productive.

now, I don't really see anything that he excels at.

This is the kind of player that if a GM signs, it could make or break him.

right now, it seems like he is a big question mark that I personally would not take a chance on.

But if we're only paying him $6M-$8M isn't Orlando just going to match? That looks like a pretty reasonable salary to me. In my mind, if we want to sign Tobias Harris we need to give him something like $12M/year.

I think that would be a terrible move. If we are gonna give a guy 12 million per than he better have proved himself already.

Harris has not proven anything yet.