Knicks · Optimism Only Thread (page 2)

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Splat wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Splat wrote:If there was ever a real plan to rebuild, the agenda would have been to tell Melo you get $16M a year from us or you can go elsewhere. Then he'd get to choose us or Chicago at roughly the same rate.

Then you'd have a player you could still possibly trade if you need to. But you're stuck with Melo now.

AND WE GAVE HIM A NO-TRADE CLAUSE. Phil is in charge? BS

If there had been a real rebuild plan in mind, then sign and trade deals to get assets for Melo would have been explored or we'd have held firm at a much lower salary.

But what Melo got was not a rebuild move. Not even close.

No amount of tap dancing can call this a rebuild now.

I think Phil did urge Melo to take a paycut publicly. However lets face it dolan pretty much made the melo decision so Phil had no leverage.

Yes, that is what I said. It was all lip service and quite phony. Phil is not in charge.

Well i do think he is in charge of everything else, However when it comes to melo the buck stops with dolan

That's like saying other than the hole in the side of the ship the Titanic is still a seaworthy vessel.

Splat wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Splat wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Splat wrote:If there was ever a real plan to rebuild, the agenda would have been to tell Melo you get $16M a year from us or you can go elsewhere. Then he'd get to choose us or Chicago at roughly the same rate.

Then you'd have a player you could still possibly trade if you need to. But you're stuck with Melo now.

AND WE GAVE HIM A NO-TRADE CLAUSE. Phil is in charge? BS

If there had been a real rebuild plan in mind, then sign and trade deals to get assets for Melo would have been explored or we'd have held firm at a much lower salary.

But what Melo got was not a rebuild move. Not even close.

No amount of tap dancing can call this a rebuild now.

I think Phil did urge Melo to take a paycut publicly. However lets face it dolan pretty much made the melo decision so Phil had no leverage.

Yes, that is what I said. It was all lip service and quite phony. Phil is not in charge.

Well i do think he is in charge of everything else, However when it comes to melo the buck stops with dolan

That's like saying other than the hole in the side of the hull the Titanic is still a highly seaworthy ship.

I wasnt trying to make it a positive man. I think it sucks that Dolan cant keep out of Knicks affairs. He lets Glen Sather handle the Rangers and surprise surprise the Rangers are a playoff team every year

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Splat wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Splat wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Splat wrote:If there was ever a real plan to rebuild, the agenda would have been to tell Melo you get $16M a year from us or you can go elsewhere. Then he'd get to choose us or Chicago at roughly the same rate.

Then you'd have a player you could still possibly trade if you need to. But you're stuck with Melo now.

AND WE GAVE HIM A NO-TRADE CLAUSE. Phil is in charge? BS

If there had been a real rebuild plan in mind, then sign and trade deals to get assets for Melo would have been explored or we'd have held firm at a much lower salary.

But what Melo got was not a rebuild move. Not even close.

No amount of tap dancing can call this a rebuild now.

I think Phil did urge Melo to take a paycut publicly. However lets face it dolan pretty much made the melo decision so Phil had no leverage.

Yes, that is what I said. It was all lip service and quite phony. Phil is not in charge.

Well i do think he is in charge of everything else, However when it comes to melo the buck stops with dolan

That's like saying other than the hole in the side of the hull the Titanic is still a highly seaworthy ship.

I wasnt trying to make it a positive man. I think it sucks that alcoholic Dolan cant keep out of Knicks affairs. He lets Glen Sather handle the Rangers and surprise surprise the Rangers are a playoff team every year

Yes, it is a bad situation. My metaphor was my way of saying that one bad thing can't be firewalled from everything else. If Phil was a puppet in the Melo deal, then I don't see how you can say he still has full autonomy in other matters. If he started off compromised that easily, then he is compromised through and through.

And even if Dolan is not involved on a regular basis, the precedent remains solidly in place now for him to pull the rug out from under Jax any time. Jax acted like he was a big chief, but he's nothing more than another overpaid little indian.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Splat wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Splat wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Splat wrote:If there was ever a real plan to rebuild, the agenda would have been to tell Melo you get $16M a year from us or you can go elsewhere. Then he'd get to choose us or Chicago at roughly the same rate.

Then you'd have a player you could still possibly trade if you need to. But you're stuck with Melo now.

AND WE GAVE HIM A NO-TRADE CLAUSE. Phil is in charge? BS

If there had been a real rebuild plan in mind, then sign and trade deals to get assets for Melo would have been explored or we'd have held firm at a much lower salary.

But what Melo got was not a rebuild move. Not even close.

No amount of tap dancing can call this a rebuild now.

I think Phil did urge Melo to take a paycut publicly. However lets face it dolan pretty much made the melo decision so Phil had no leverage.

Yes, that is what I said. It was all lip service and quite phony. Phil is not in charge.

Well i do think he is in charge of everything else, However when it comes to melo the buck stops with dolan

That's like saying other than the hole in the side of the hull the Titanic is still a highly seaworthy ship.

I wasnt trying to make it a positive man. I think it sucks that Dolan cant keep out of Knicks affairs. He lets Glen Sather handle the Rangers and surprise surprise the Rangers are a playoff team every year

Even let Sather fire that coach whom Dolan really liked. Supposedly he's giving Phil the Sather power and stepping away, it should be a very telling offseason. Lets see what the man can do.

Or like splat post pics of pigs with giant balls. Im sure he enjoyed everything that came up during that search.

fishmike wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Splat wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Splat wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Splat wrote:If there was ever a real plan to rebuild, the agenda would have been to tell Melo you get $16M a year from us or you can go elsewhere. Then he'd get to choose us or Chicago at roughly the same rate.

Then you'd have a player you could still possibly trade if you need to. But you're stuck with Melo now.

AND WE GAVE HIM A NO-TRADE CLAUSE. Phil is in charge? BS

If there had been a real rebuild plan in mind, then sign and trade deals to get assets for Melo would have been explored or we'd have held firm at a much lower salary.

But what Melo got was not a rebuild move. Not even close.

No amount of tap dancing can call this a rebuild now.

I think Phil did urge Melo to take a paycut publicly. However lets face it dolan pretty much made the melo decision so Phil had no leverage.

Yes, that is what I said. It was all lip service and quite phony. Phil is not in charge.

Well i do think he is in charge of everything else, However when it comes to melo the buck stops with dolan

That's like saying other than the hole in the side of the hull the Titanic is still a highly seaworthy ship.

I wasnt trying to make it a positive man. I think it sucks that Dolan cant keep out of Knicks affairs. He lets Glen Sather handle the Rangers and surprise surprise the Rangers are a playoff team every year

Even let Sather fire that coach whom Dolan really liked. Supposedly he's giving Phil the Sather power and stepping away, it should be a very telling offseason. Lets see what the man can do.

Or like splat post pics of pigs with giant balls. Im sure he enjoyed everything that came up during that search.

Its funny i keep hearing supposedly he is letting all these GM's he hires to do their thing yet he ends sticking his nose where it doenst belong and screwing us more. Look i understand this is the "optimistic" thread but i try to be real. Im very happy that we have a chance to get a good player in the draft and im also happy we have cap space but its still a LONG road ahead and it will be even longer if Dolan pops up again

JSmith, Galloway and Early might be guys that can be bench players. Acy too. I can't believe I am saying this but Bargnani might actually be able to play in this system.

Hardaway Jr is an asset that may get us something of value back.

There is cap space and a pick, Melo and the guy running the franchise has 11 rings!!

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:JSmith, Galloway and Early might be guys that can be bench players. Acy too. I can't believe I am saying this but Bargnani might actually be able to play in this system.

Hardaway Jr is an asset that may get us something of value back.

There is cap space and a pick, Melo and the guy running the franchise has 11 rings!!

As much as i am a fan of Phil there is a difference getting 11 rings as a coach(with 3 of the best players in our generation) and winning as a executive. Not saying he cant do it but i need to see it first

TripleThreat wrote:

fin89 wrote:Optimism Only Thread

1) Langston Galloway has been a relatively pleasant surprise. He has a chance to be part of the team's long term future.

2) I might be in the minority here on this, but I think Derek Fisher will end up a very good coach. ( Though it remains to be seen if it's here or if the Triangle will stifle his learning curve)

3) If a team hits rock bottom, clearly the only direction left is up. I still think the next four years will be a treadmill team, but I'm hoping that the Knicks can at least play some entertaining basketball if nothing else. At some level, the baseline has to be giving fans their money's worth when they buy a ticket.

I think Galloway is the kind of guy who is going to look fantastic if we can upgrade the talent around him. He's a guy who will really fill out the stat sheet. Agree 100% and I think Fisher will be just fine also.

fishmike wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

fin89 wrote:Optimism Only Thread

1) Langston Galloway has been a relatively pleasant surprise. He has a chance to be part of the team's long term future.

2) I might be in the minority here on this, but I think Derek Fisher will end up a very good coach. ( Though it remains to be seen if it's here or if the Triangle will stifle his learning curve)

3) If a team hits rock bottom, clearly the only direction left is up. I still think the next four years will be a treadmill team, but I'm hoping that the Knicks can at least play some entertaining basketball if nothing else. At some level, the baseline has to be giving fans their money's worth when they buy a ticket.

I think Galloway is the kind of guy who is going to look fantastic if we can upgrade the talent around him. He's a guy who will really fill out the stat sheet. Agree 100% and I think Fisher will be just fine also.

Galloway has shown some real good flashes but still a ways to go. I like his energy but the real test is when other teams start paying him more attention

StarksEwing1 wrote:

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:JSmith, Galloway and Early might be guys that can be bench players. Acy too. I can't believe I am saying this but Bargnani might actually be able to play in this system.

Hardaway Jr is an asset that may get us something of value back.

There is cap space and a pick, Melo and the guy running the franchise has 11 rings!!

As much as i am a fan of Phil there is a difference getting 11 rings as a coach(with 3 of the best players in our generation) and winning as a executive. Not saying he cant do it but i need to see it first

This is a positive only thread.

TripleThreat wrote:

fin89 wrote:Optimism Only Thread

1) Langston Galloway has been a relatively pleasant surprise. He has a chance to be part of the team's long term future.

2) I might be in the minority here on this, but I think Derek Fisher will end up a very good coach. ( Though it remains to be seen if it's here or if the Triangle will stifle his learning curve)

3) If a team hits rock bottom, clearly the only direction left is up. I still think the next four years will be a treadmill team, but I'm hoping that the Knicks can at least play some entertaining basketball if nothing else. At some level, the baseline has to be giving fans their money's worth when they buy a ticket.

I like Fisher too. He has the right demeanor.

Melo averaged 24/6/3 on one leg. Who knows how long that has been hurting him. He will come back healthy and go for 28/10/5 next year!

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:JSmith, Galloway and Early might be guys that can be bench players. Acy too. I can't believe I am saying this but Bargnani might actually be able to play in this system.

Hardaway Jr is an asset that may get us something of value back.

There is cap space and a pick, Melo and the guy running the franchise has 11 rings!!

As much as i am a fan of Phil there is a difference getting 11 rings as a coach(with 3 of the best players in our generation) and winning as a executive. Not saying he cant do it but i need to see it first

This is a positive only thread.

I didnt say anything negative man. But hey i'll play along. next year we will go 82-0 in the regular season 16-0 in the playoffs. Melo(the greatest player on earth) will win his long deserved MVP and Phil will be executive of the year. That better

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

fin89 wrote:Optimism Only Thread

1) Langston Galloway has been a relatively pleasant surprise. He has a chance to be part of the team's long term future.

2) I might be in the minority here on this, but I think Derek Fisher will end up a very good coach. ( Though it remains to be seen if it's here or if the Triangle will stifle his learning curve)

3) If a team hits rock bottom, clearly the only direction left is up. I still think the next four years will be a treadmill team, but I'm hoping that the Knicks can at least play some entertaining basketball if nothing else. At some level, the baseline has to be giving fans their money's worth when they buy a ticket.

I think Galloway is the kind of guy who is going to look fantastic if we can upgrade the talent around him. He's a guy who will really fill out the stat sheet. Agree 100% and I think Fisher will be just fine also.

Galloway has shown some real good flashes but still a ways to go. I like his energy but the real test is when other teams start paying him more attention

I think they are paying attention now... I mean nobobdy on the Knicks scares you, and Galloway can score it pretty well. When Galloway is the 4th or 5th option behind Melo, OK4, etc etc he will look like a really good player.

fishmike wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

fin89 wrote:Optimism Only Thread

1) Langston Galloway has been a relatively pleasant surprise. He has a chance to be part of the team's long term future.

2) I might be in the minority here on this, but I think Derek Fisher will end up a very good coach. ( Though it remains to be seen if it's here or if the Triangle will stifle his learning curve)

3) If a team hits rock bottom, clearly the only direction left is up. I still think the next four years will be a treadmill team, but I'm hoping that the Knicks can at least play some entertaining basketball if nothing else. At some level, the baseline has to be giving fans their money's worth when they buy a ticket.

I think Galloway is the kind of guy who is going to look fantastic if we can upgrade the talent around him. He's a guy who will really fill out the stat sheet. Agree 100% and I think Fisher will be just fine also.

Galloway has shown some real good flashes but still a ways to go. I like his energy but the real test is when other teams start paying him more attention

I think they are paying attention now... I mean nobobdy on the Knicks scares you, and Galloway can score it pretty well. When Galloway is the 4th or 5th option behind Melo, OK4, etc etc he will look like a really good player.

I do like Galloway and if we get Okafor then melo is gonna have to sacrifice his game to get those guys involved

After many, many years, the Knicks aren't giving away draft picks like candy anymore. Whether or not you believe that Phil should have made better deals for the picks he acquired, this change in philosophy should be welcome news for Knicks fans.

GustavBahler wrote:After many, many years, the Knicks aren't giving away draft picks like candy anymore. Whether or not you believe that Phil should have made better deals for the picks he acquired, this change in philosophy should be welcome news for Knicks fans.

Thats the biggest positive for me. But to be fair we werent allowed to trade our 2015 pick so thats the only reason we still have it. The one time i want to thank the NBA

StarksEwing1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:After many, many years, the Knicks aren't giving away draft picks like candy anymore. Whether or not you believe that Phil should have made better deals for the picks he acquired, this change in philosophy should be welcome news for Knicks fans.

Thats the biggest positive for me. But to be fair we werent allowed to trade our 2015 pick so thats the only reason we still have it. The one time i want to thank the NBA

If Phil sticks around, I don't see him being overly generous with draft picks like his predecessors.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:After many, many years, the Knicks aren't giving away draft picks like candy anymore. Whether or not you believe that Phil should have made better deals for the picks he acquired, this change in philosophy should be welcome news for Knicks fans.

Thats the biggest positive for me. But to be fair we werent allowed to trade our 2015 pick so thats the only reason we still have it. The one time i want to thank the NBA

he's added picks since being here and could have swapped the draft position to get a player at the deadline. If we offered THjr and the right to swap picks we probably could have been in the Dragic running or other deals.

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:JSmith, Galloway and Early might be guys that can be bench players. Acy too. I can't believe I am saying this but Bargnani might actually be able to play in this system.

Hardaway Jr is an asset that may get us something of value back.

There is cap space and a pick, Melo and the guy running the franchise has 11 rings!!

As much as i am a fan of Phil there is a difference getting 11 rings as a coach(with 3 of the best players in our generation) and winning as a executive. Not saying he cant do it but i need to see it first

This is a positive only thread.

Buddy, this is about as positive as it's going to get around here until things turn around.
The melohate/Dolanitis has metastasized and is now a full blown imploding, radiating hack wound.

Splat's no longer a fan, but he posts 5 times as much as anyone else, and before 7am, even. Impressive. He hates it all because he cares so much.

+ I'm not sure why, but I haven't seen an F500NE double-spaced sonnet post in quite some time. And I don't really care to figure it out, either.
+ Langston Galloway is not the next Lin. Hopefully this means he will grow into a great player for us, and not become the next 2 week wonder that goes somewhere else.
+ The site seems to just load faster the more we get blown out.
+ There are sure to be posts about how Melo is responsible for all the blowout games he doesn't play in.

The positive is we "should" get a nice player from the draft--and if its top 2 SUPER nice. I urge the Knicks do be smart with money. IF its available-- if they can look for asset-laden deal such as the one I out-lined with David Lee coming back--we need to atleast look at it. We CAN be competitive while rebuilding with Melo a new power frontline getting RID of Calderon and finding some speed and skill in the backcourt. We can rebuild the frontline this year AND we can rebuild the backcourt next year. We need to have cap flexibility. ONLY under special circumstance should we "use it all".

Special circumstance is signing two players at or near max BUT those players would have to be special. I view this as a 25% possibility. I DO not under ANY circumstance think that Greg Monroe Rajon Rondo Wes Matthews etc.. are special players worthy of being paid more than 10mm--

There are different avenues of which to go and it also depends what Phil J does in the draft.

What we "know" is that we DO NOT have many players on this current roster we can move forward with. The differential we have started to lose with tells you all you need to know about the current roster. When people start writing that Jose Calderon should be our starting PG next year--throw up enters my mouth. We have an aging slow point guard who CANNOT put ball pressure on the opponent nor can he even get to the rim. Even if we load up our frontcourt with some good new and older players--we need better play out of the G position to make it work in a reasonable way.
I absolutely do NOT agree with Splat that Melo scks--simply NOT the case. We can WORK with melo(and we have no choice so if this is a positive thread than we start there really)--he has shown he can be part of a team and still a vital cog. At WORST if we are shallow and we are not winning--as long as Melo becomes healthy and he is back to 25-6-4 45%+ we can talk with him about the potential of moving elsewhere IF it comes to that.

The ONLY guys I want back are Langston Galloway as a back up (and he has to learn to PASS the ball a LOT more and make a 3 when he is OPEN) Lou Admundson as a mentor back up because he has actually EARNED the spot. Lance Thomas is still up in the air and Early needs to show he can drive the ball and make a three over the next 25 games and SL--since he is a minimum player I think he should get the SUMMER league and a second year invitation to camp since he was hurt this year. And I would consider keeping J Smith for the vets minimum only anything more for his inconsistent play--Id rather spend elsewhere.

Gone Bargs Calderon Shveyd Acy probably Smith Wear Larkin Ald rich at while I think he needs to be gone I still think we can get some value from TimmY H

Splat wrote:
Nooo. I'm saying there is a whole lot of cognitive dissonance occurring in the Knicks fan base right now where people expect to land a star in this draft + land significant free agents and this is will gel with Melo and other stray pick-ups into something competitive.

I fail to see the conflict. Where is the contradiction?

Splat wrote:Tanking now is really the only option and even if Phil has mostly eff'd things up so far, as least he showed a modicum of common sense and said it's on me and basically conceded they are now tanking.

Can we concede that Jackson recognized that this core of players did not understand the triangle and could not operate in his system? No one says that JR Smith is a bad player, but it is clear his basketball IQ is lacking. The tank has been on for a while.

Splat wrote:But it is not a rebuild. That's what I said. It's the same old disorganized scrambling and band-aid BS approach this organization has always had. Phil was a spineless toad when he puffed up his chest about not overpaying Melo and then caved like a wimp and overpaid a really ineffectual player whose sole attribute is volume scoring.

Define a rebuild. How many core pieces can you retain and still rebuild. Did you witness the negotiations between Jackson and Leon Rose? How would you react if he allowed Melo to walk and got nothing in return? The mistake for me is not the signing, its the no trade clause. And Melo's secondary asset is shooting in the clutch. He is your finisher. Do not undervalue that.

Splat wrote:Giving a player whose career has already peaked the top salary in the league is not rebuilding my friend. It's Dolan redux.

Are you contesting Melo is a max player? Most of us don't contend he is a max player. We contend that in this league where players team up to win championships, if you want to win you have to take less so the team can afford more stars. As Phil said, the standard has been set by Lebron. He never said he wouldn't pay him, he said he should give a hometown discount if he wants to win.

Splat wrote:Plus a rebuild doesn't center itself around a 30 year old with a dozen years of wear and tear who has led the league in minutes.

Says who? Do you not count 1996 as a "rebuild" where we brought in Houston and Childs from free agency, traded Mason for Johnson and made Jeff Van Gundy head coach? What was that? I would say that was centered around a 34 year old Ewing with lots of minutes on those knees. Are you talking from fact or from feeling? Or you assuming a "rebuild" must happen through some very limited rules that you have not yet identified?

Splat wrote:I said from the very beginning Melo would break down. Here we are. We're breaking down already and people want to call it a rebuild?

All players break down, eventually. I call it a rebuild because our roster has 1 starter from this year that will be here next year. We are turning over the roster and building around Melo. Did you predict Durant would 'break down' too? Would you not sign him? Yes, I would prefer to rebuild around Lebron. Or Steph Curry even.

You don't forfeit your rook simply because it isn't a queen. You put the pieces in place around that rook to get checkmate anyway (knowing its limited abilities). Place your knight and bishop and hope your pawn makes it to be a queen. Seems like a good metaphor to me.

Splat wrote:Jackson is not the master of this situation, so the hook in the storyline some are still biting on like sucker fish about Phil having a plan is a laugh riot. Jackson showed his hand early on he's all bluster and little sense and Dolan remains his master.

If you don't have the players to fit your proven model of how to win 11 championships, do you change your players or your proven plan? Jackson has 11 rings. That's more than Bill Russell and every other person on the planet. I'm not saying that's the end of discussion, but it does make me give the guy some faith. Lets change the players and see what happens. I won't promise a chip, but I am accepting of this plan.