Knicks · Melo: "a 19-year old PG might not fit the plan right now." (page 3)

Melo should have zero input on who we draft period. If he wants to help scout Free agents along with Phil i have no problem with that. However we shouldnt draft a player to help melo needs, we should draft the best player available. If Okafor and Towns are gone but Russell and Mudiay are sitting their then you have to take those two because they are the best available. I dont care if they are 19

Anthony said it’s time to win now, but doesn’t want Jackson to trade the pick for a veteran. The Knicks have a 19.9 percent of landing the top pick as the lottery’s second seed behind the Timberwolves.

Anthony said the Knicks “have to” explore trading the pick, but said they can get enough veterans in free agency.

http://nypost.com/2015/04/16/carmelo-ant...

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:
http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball...

that article is 3 years old.

I think taking interview comments and translating those comments into "Melo as the same pull as Phil" is beyond a stretch. He's a max guy with a no trade clause on sport/team where a dozen guys make up the roster. I mean of course he's going to have say.

Likability and chemistry have never been Melo's problems. The year he took the 2nd most shots on his team (Iverson #1) was always his most EF% year. Go find an a quote from a former player saying they didnt like playing with Melo. I can show you plenty from guys who says they did.. from Jason Kidd to Langston Galloway. His leadership problems stem from him wanting to be more buddy buddy with teammates rather then being the tough guy who challenges and brings it. Listen to any of the old vets they all say the same.. they loved playing with him.

There it is in black and white.. the guy says he would take a #2 role.

It's from 18 months ago.

Who are we going to get that Melo would play #2 to? Realistically - who is that person?

My worry for a while is that off-season would boil down to - trade the pick for Kevin Love and sign Rondo.

Who else is out there that Melo would play second fiddle to?

Here's my beef with this school of thought. Your calling Phil both dumb and inpatient, two things he's said he wont be. He's talked about grooming a cornerstone player with this pick. He's talked about building a foundation I believe once his exact words if they dont win a title under him thats fine, he's more focused on setting up a culture that can win titles for years whether he is there or not.

So my thought is simply this. Phi has coached 11 title teams. He's been beaten as well. Detroit dismanted him. Boston beat him.. I mean dont you think Phil has an idea of what it takes to be elite in this league? Dont you know he's aware of the talent he had in these guys he won titles with? If you think he's got one tenth of a clue how can you suggest he would build his next title team run around Rondo, KLove and MElo? It just doesnt add up...
C Stein
PF Love
SF Melo
SG Langston
PG Rondo
Bench: Shved, Cole, etc... something like that? Does that look like Phil's blueprint for his legacy? Ill believe it when I see it, but some guys on here have a tendancy to continually post a terrible scenario, then refer to that scenario like its been talked about for time now and has plausibility. Briggs and his Stein pick is a miserable fantasy that has no bearing on reality

You need to take the bpa regardless of position and regardless of age. The player the Knicks scouting staff believes is the best long term player. OR if they find a multi faceted asset trade down that made tremendous sense-- either or. You can't say we won't take a 19 year old pg what if it's determined that this player is bpa. This pick is worth more than a 3 year timeframe melo might have. This is for the next wave

BRIGGS wrote:You need to take the bpa regardless of position and regardless of age. The player the Knicks scouting staff believes is the best long term player. OR if they find a multi faceted asset trade down that made tremendous sense-- either or. You can't say we won't take a 19 year old pg what if it's determined that this player is bpa. This pick is worth more than a 3 year timeframe melo might have. This is for the next wave

And Phil has said exactly that. Almost to a tee. So lets see how it plays out yea?

The Knicks position is not yet revealed by the league. But if they draft at 3-5 it should be the best available player. It should not be based on age. Melo should know this better than most he was a 19 year old coming into the league. But from Melo's stand point he know PGs have a longer learning curve and time is something he is running out of.

franco12 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Just trying to read the "tea leaves."

Start with the comment about Town's butt by Phil's friend...

add Anthony's comment about a 19 yr old PG...

and top with this photofrom January.

Draw your own conclusions.

Is that Okafor and Melo?

Makes sense that he'd be their top pick for the Triangle... but they have to be in range for him.

If they take OK4, I can't see how signing Greg Monroe makes any sense.

I could see OK4 working super well for them in the Triangle.

But where does having the top one-way center in the NBA get you these days? OKC didn't even make the playoffs with Kanter AND Russ. The Nets are the 8 seed under .500 with Brook Lopez.

Anyway, they have to get a top 2 or maybe top 3 pick to be able to take Okafor. So. We'll see.

I'd love it if we can grab Okafor - no idea who the pic is, bad eyes.

But what is problematic is that we might rule out talented players simply because of our desire to jump start the corpse that is this roster.

And if we miss the next Jordan because we wanted the next Sam Bowie because Phil & Melo couldn't wait, then Phil sure as heck needs to give up his 2 championship rings from his Knick days, unretire his number and kick him out of the HOF.

Anthony/OK4 at the Duke victory over St. Johns.

Couple of photos taken that day.

WaltLongmire wrote:

franco12 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Just trying to read the "tea leaves."

Start with the comment about Town's butt by Phil's friend...

add Anthony's comment about a 19 yr old PG...

and top with this photofrom January.

Draw your own conclusions.

Is that Okafor and Melo?

Makes sense that he'd be their top pick for the Triangle... but they have to be in range for him.

If they take OK4, I can't see how signing Greg Monroe makes any sense.

I could see OK4 working super well for them in the Triangle.

But where does having the top one-way center in the NBA get you these days? OKC didn't even make the playoffs with Kanter AND Russ. The Nets are the 8 seed under .500 with Brook Lopez.

Anyway, they have to get a top 2 or maybe top 3 pick to be able to take Okafor. So. We'll see.

I'd love it if we can grab Okafor - no idea who the pic is, bad eyes.

But what is problematic is that we might rule out talented players simply because of our desire to jump start the corpse that is this roster.

And if we miss the next Jordan because we wanted the next Sam Bowie because Phil & Melo couldn't wait, then Phil sure as heck needs to give up his 2 championship rings from his Knick days, unretire his number and kick him out of the HOF.

Anthony/OK4 at the Duke victory over St. Johns.

Couple of photos taken that day.

That pic is from Jordan classic when Okafor was in High School.

franco12 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Just trying to read the "tea leaves."

Start with the comment about Town's butt by Phil's friend...

add Anthony's comment about a 19 yr old PG...

and top with this photofrom January.

Draw your own conclusions.

Is that Okafor and Melo?

Makes sense that he'd be their top pick for the Triangle... but they have to be in range for him.

If they take OK4, I can't see how signing Greg Monroe makes any sense.

I could see OK4 working super well for them in the Triangle.

But where does having the top one-way center in the NBA get you these days? OKC didn't even make the playoffs with Kanter AND Russ. The Nets are the 8 seed under .500 with Brook Lopez.

Anyway, they have to get a top 2 or maybe top 3 pick to be able to take Okafor. So. We'll see.

I'd love it if we can grab Okafor - no idea who the pic is, bad eyes.

But what is problematic is that we might rule out talented players simply because of our desire to jump start the corpse that is this roster.

And if we miss the next Jordan because we wanted the next Sam Bowie because Phil & Melo couldn't wait, then Phil sure as heck needs to give up his 2 championship rings from his Knick days, unretire his number and kick him out of the HOF.

Yes that is OK4 in that pic.

Phil has made it clear he's not looking at the draft solely for immediate impact tho that would be great. He's using Free Agency for proven talent. People need to freakin relax on the freakout over what Melo said. Phil has been down this road before with young player like Bynum and he won. He was fearful of having Bynum in the mix but he saw that he could still win with a young prospect in the mix.

Phil said that he wants the team to have a future component as well as a current component. He'll draft according to talent and then go from there. The Draft comes 1st. If the best player left when the Knicks draft is not ready to be an immediate impact I don't think that would stop Phil from drafting him. Remember tho we're talking top 5 picks here. Those are all good players.

fishmike wrote:Here's my beef with this school of thought. Your calling Phil both dumb and inpatient, two things he's said he wont be. He's talked about grooming a cornerstone player with this pick. He's talked about building a foundation I believe once his exact words if they dont win a title under him thats fine, he's more focused on setting up a culture that can win titles for years whether he is there or not.

So my thought is simply this. Phi has coached 11 title teams. He's been beaten as well. Detroit dismanted him. Boston beat him.. I mean dont you think Phil has an idea of what it takes to be elite in this league? Dont you know he's aware of the talent he had in these guys he won titles with? If you think he's got one tenth of a clue how can you suggest he would build his next title team run around Rondo, KLove and MElo? It just doesnt add up...
C Stein
PF Love
SF Melo
SG Langston
PG Rondo
Bench: Shved, Cole, etc... something like that? Does that look like Phil's blueprint for his legacy? Ill believe it when I see it, but some guys on here have a tendancy to continually post a terrible scenario, then refer to that scenario like its been talked about for time now and has plausibility. Briggs and his Stein pick is a miserable fantasy that has no bearing on reality

I'm legit asking who is out there for Melo to actually play second fiddle to? Who would it be? M Gasol?

Look, Love and Rondo aren't terrible players at all. I'd prefer Love to Greg Monroe, for instance.

But to your other point - nothing Phil has done has given me much hope. He gave away Tyson Chandler and said he thought this team could make the playoffs. He gave away Shumpert and JR Smith in a move that made the Cavs a title contender and didn't even get a first round pick.

Positives: he found Galloway, Shved has been nice, Lance Thomas and Lou Amundson are quality role players.

But the negatives are huge team building negatives: He took on three years of Jose Calderon, he gave away a defensive anchor and got no draft picks out of it, he gave away a young wing defender on a rookie deal - partially to get rid of JR Smith, who is now starting at SG for the best team in the East...

The negatives of Phil's tenure here show impatience and poor team building instincts.

I'm not rooting against him - I'm taking what I know of Phil and what I know of Melo and hearing what they say and I am worried.

gunsnewing wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Melo the GM doubting Melo the GM?

@Al_Iannazzone: Melo said there were times when he second-guessed himself about whether he made the right decision re-signing with Knicks.

LOL

The gift that keeps on giving

dear melo please please PLEASE take your talents away from MSG this summer

LOL here comes the Melo hate brigade. What's really funny is Melo has a no trade and isn't going anywhere so his haters have to gulp that down for years to come. HA!

How about you guys spend some time thinking about how this team can be revamped this summer rather than bytch about a player who is pretty much locked in unless he decides he doesn't want to be here and that doesn't seem likely given his interest in how the team rebuilds. Melo sounds like he's getting excited about the future of the team so buckle up boys.

franco12 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Just trying to read the "tea leaves."

Start with the comment about Town's butt by Phil's friend...

add Anthony's comment about a 19 yr old PG...

and top with this photofrom January.

Draw your own conclusions.

Is that Okafor and Melo?

Makes sense that he'd be their top pick for the Triangle... but they have to be in range for him.

If they take OK4, I can't see how signing Greg Monroe makes any sense.

I could see OK4 working super well for them in the Triangle.

But where does having the top one-way center in the NBA get you these days? OKC didn't even make the playoffs with Kanter AND Russ. The Nets are the 8 seed under .500 with Brook Lopez.

Anyway, they have to get a top 2 or maybe top 3 pick to be able to take Okafor. So. We'll see.

I'd love it if we can grab Okafor - no idea who the pic is, bad eyes.

But what is problematic is that we might rule out talented players simply because of our desire to jump start the corpse that is this roster.

And if we miss the next Jordan because we wanted the next Sam Bowie because Phil & Melo couldn't wait, then Phil sure as heck needs to give up his 2 championship rings from his Knick days, unretire his number and kick him out of the HOF.

judging on how uncut the arms are and how short he is, it looks to be okafor.

nixluva wrote:LOL here comes the Melo hate brigade. What's really funny is Melo has a no trade and isn't going anywhere so his haters have to gulp that down for years to come. HA!

How about you guys spend some time thinking about how this team can be revamped this summer rather than bytch about a player who is pretty much locked in unless he decides he doesn't want to be here and that doesn't seem likely given his interest in how the team rebuilds. Melo sounds like he's getting excited about the future of the team so buckle up boys.

melo is a selfish moron who should have no say-- zero, nada, zilch-- in the direction of the team. if he doesn't like the direction then he should leave.

the end.

BRIGGS wrote:You need to take the bpa regardless of position and regardless of age. The player the Knicks scouting staff believes is the best long term player. OR if they find a multi faceted asset trade down that made tremendous sense-- either or. You can't say we won't take a 19 year old pg what if it's determined that this player is bpa. This pick is worth more than a 3 year timeframe melo might have. This is for the next wave

The differences between/among some of the players in this draft are minimal, IMO- and who is to say how any particular team ranks players on their draft board.

As some have pointed out, at one time it was easier to evaluate a player because they had a track record during their 4 years of college. Now you are trying to predict how kids who are one year out of HS will perform in the NBA.

Who is to say that Kaminsky might not be a more productive player than Towns or OK4? Does anyone really know whether Mudiay is better than Russell, or vice versa? How long will it take the two Euros to develop (and what will they develop into), and do you take that into consideration when you are drafting them? Can either Winslow or Russell eventually be the best player to come out of this draft, as some have said- and if one is, how much better will he really be than Towns or OK4?

This player evaluation process ain't science, folks. 30 teams (including the Knicks) passed on the 22 year old/4 year player at a good BB program, Langston Galloway, who is now poised to be a second team All-NBA rookie.

Its not a crapshoot- more like a pseudo-science.

Thabeet and Beasley were the 2nd picks in their respective drafts. Wesley Johnson, Epke Udoh and Flynn were picked in the top 6, Derrick Williams was a #2 pick, and OJ Mayo was a #3. Jan Vesely and Bismack Biyombo were chosen ahead of Klay Thompson.

Yup, it sure is easy to pick the BPA when its your time on the clock.

dk7th wrote:

franco12 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Just trying to read the "tea leaves."

Start with the comment about Town's butt by Phil's friend...

add Anthony's comment about a 19 yr old PG...

and top with this photofrom January.

Draw your own conclusions.

Is that Okafor and Melo?

Makes sense that he'd be their top pick for the Triangle... but they have to be in range for him.

If they take OK4, I can't see how signing Greg Monroe makes any sense.

I could see OK4 working super well for them in the Triangle.

But where does having the top one-way center in the NBA get you these days? OKC didn't even make the playoffs with Kanter AND Russ. The Nets are the 8 seed under .500 with Brook Lopez.

Anyway, they have to get a top 2 or maybe top 3 pick to be able to take Okafor. So. We'll see.

I'd love it if we can grab Okafor - no idea who the pic is, bad eyes.

But what is problematic is that we might rule out talented players simply because of our desire to jump start the corpse that is this roster.

And if we miss the next Jordan because we wanted the next Sam Bowie because Phil & Melo couldn't wait, then Phil sure as heck needs to give up his 2 championship rings from his Knick days, unretire his number and kick him out of the HOF.

judging on how uncut the arms are and how short he is, it looks to be okafor.

Funny, but he looks much taller in another photo they took together. The one I chose did make me pause a bit when I saw it. His arms look more cut in this one, too.

Melo is further back in that one but Jahlil is a legit 6'10

Haters can relax...Melo is just out there acting as the face of the organization for one day answering questions..I think Knick fans and the media have heard enough from Phil and Fish, it's been a tough year...Melo isn't making decisions, that's Phil's job...

Exerpt from Ian O'connor piece:

Anthony said he hasn't lost any faith in his boss, and perhaps he wasn't quite as candid on that one as he was when confirming he's second-guessed his decision last year to pick the Knicks over the Bulls, who now carry a 50-32 record into the playoffs. Melo also said he'd be definitely willing to "be the second option" if Jackson signed a superstar to lighten the offensive load.

"Now we really get a chance, and he really gets a chance, to put a stamp on what he wants this organization to be about," Anthony said. "What he wants this team to be about, what players he wants in here. This is the time he steps up to the plate."

The team president needs to hit one over the wall, at least one, and the evidence so far suggests that's a long shot. As far as recovering Knicks stars go, fans should be less worried about Carmelo Anthony's knee than they are about Phil Jackson's eye.

WaltLongmire wrote:

dk7th wrote:

franco12 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Just trying to read the "tea leaves."

Start with the comment about Town's butt by Phil's friend...

add Anthony's comment about a 19 yr old PG...

and top with this photofrom January.

Draw your own conclusions.

Is that Okafor and Melo?

Makes sense that he'd be their top pick for the Triangle... but they have to be in range for him.

If they take OK4, I can't see how signing Greg Monroe makes any sense.

I could see OK4 working super well for them in the Triangle.

But where does having the top one-way center in the NBA get you these days? OKC didn't even make the playoffs with Kanter AND Russ. The Nets are the 8 seed under .500 with Brook Lopez.

Anyway, they have to get a top 2 or maybe top 3 pick to be able to take Okafor. So. We'll see.

I'd love it if we can grab Okafor - no idea who the pic is, bad eyes.

But what is problematic is that we might rule out talented players simply because of our desire to jump start the corpse that is this roster.

And if we miss the next Jordan because we wanted the next Sam Bowie because Phil & Melo couldn't wait, then Phil sure as heck needs to give up his 2 championship rings from his Knick days, unretire his number and kick him out of the HOF.

judging on how uncut the arms are and how short he is, it looks to be okafor.

Funny, but he looks much taller in another photo they took together. The one I chose did make me pause a bit when I saw it. His arms look more cut in this one, too.

okay much better but okafor has put on a lot of weight since these two fotos. look he's going to be a decent pro i have no problems with that. the main issue is how much melo is going to be marginalized-- or whether he IS going to be marginalized-- the next several seasons.

i don't agree with the accumulate talent for its own sake approach, especially if it's win now. funny thing it's been win now ever since february 20 2011...............

dk7th wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

dk7th wrote:

franco12 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Just trying to read the "tea leaves."

Start with the comment about Town's butt by Phil's friend...

add Anthony's comment about a 19 yr old PG...

and top with this photofrom January.

Draw your own conclusions.

Is that Okafor and Melo?

Makes sense that he'd be their top pick for the Triangle... but they have to be in range for him.

If they take OK4, I can't see how signing Greg Monroe makes any sense.

I could see OK4 working super well for them in the Triangle.

But where does having the top one-way center in the NBA get you these days? OKC didn't even make the playoffs with Kanter AND Russ. The Nets are the 8 seed under .500 with Brook Lopez.

Anyway, they have to get a top 2 or maybe top 3 pick to be able to take Okafor. So. We'll see.

I'd love it if we can grab Okafor - no idea who the pic is, bad eyes.

But what is problematic is that we might rule out talented players simply because of our desire to jump start the corpse that is this roster.

And if we miss the next Jordan because we wanted the next Sam Bowie because Phil & Melo couldn't wait, then Phil sure as heck needs to give up his 2 championship rings from his Knick days, unretire his number and kick him out of the HOF.

judging on how uncut the arms are and how short he is, it looks to be okafor.

Funny, but he looks much taller in another photo they took together. The one I chose did make me pause a bit when I saw it. His arms look more cut in this one, too.

okay much better but okafor has put on a lot of weight since these two fotos. look he's going to be a decent pro i have no problems with that. the main issue is how much melo is going to be marginalized-- or whether he IS going to be marginalized-- the next several seasons.

i don't agree with the accumulate talent for its own sake approach, especially if it's win now. funny thing it's been win now ever since february 20 2011...............

Actually its been win now here since 1986. They did ok until about 2000, then spent 15 years under Dolan's wise ownership in the cellar!

WaltLongmire wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:You need to take the bpa regardless of position and regardless of age. The player the Knicks scouting staff believes is the best long term player. OR if they find a multi faceted asset trade down that made tremendous sense-- either or. You can't say we won't take a 19 year old pg what if it's determined that this player is bpa. This pick is worth more than a 3 year timeframe melo might have. This is for the next wave

The differences between/among some of the players in this draft are minimal, IMO- and who is to say how any particular team ranks players on their draft board.

As some have pointed out, at one time it was easier to evaluate a player because they had a track record during their 4 years of college. Now you are trying to predict how kids who are one year out of HS will perform in the NBA.

Who is to say that Kaminsky might not be a more productive player than Towns or OK4? Does anyone really know whether Mudiay is better than Russell, or vice versa? How long will it take the two Euros to develop (and what will they develop into), and do you take that into consideration when you are drafting them? Can either Winslow or Russell eventually be the best player to come out of this draft, as some have said- and if one is, how much better will he really be than Towns or OK4?

This player evaluation process ain't science, folks. 30 teams (including the Knicks) passed on the 22 year old/4 year player at a good BB program, Langston Galloway, who is now poised to be a second team All-NBA rookie.

Its not a crapshoot- more like a pseudo-science.

Thabeet and Beasley were the 2nd picks in their respective drafts. Wesley Johnson, Epke Udoh and Flynn were picked in the top 6, Derrick Williams was a #2 pick, and OJ Mayo was a #3. Jan Vesely and Bismack Biyombo were chosen ahead of Klay Thompson.

Yup, it sure is easy to pick the BPA when its your time on the clock.

Yes, I think the analysis of draft picks is slightly skewed -- with a bias toward projects and stashes.

A draft pick earns a team a 2 year contract, an option for a 3rd, an option for a 4th and then a right of first refusal on the next contract in the fifth year based upon a qualifying offer.

Any draft pick that is a max player by the end of the fourth year creates additional value in the right of first refusal/extension -- or at least the 5th year by acceptance of the QO which makes it a winning draft pick.

Any draft pick that is not a max player is only worth valuating during the first 4 years because the 5th year will be set at the fair market value of the player (i.e. no net benefit based on the rookie contract) and anyone can overpay for your player.

Basically, to draft a project over an established player, you must believe that they will be a max player by the end of year 4. Otherwise, you risk losing them to another team willing to overpay based on future upside. At the end of year 4, as an RFA, a team should match the offer if it appears to have long term value or reject the offer if it overpays -- and make a decision if it is cost neutral by virtue of the balance of the team. So, unless your draft pick projects as a max player by the end of year 4, you should instead take the best player now to maximize the value of the rookie scale contract in the first 4 years. By this analysis, the Thabeet, Biyambo and most other height not talent based picks are flawed, unless they can be stashed overseas.

Guys like Ok4, Stein and Kaminsky will have tremendous value in their rookie contracts. Of these three, I would only project OK4 to be a max contract by the end of year 4 - but they all have potential. Towns, is not as ready as the above 3 today, but I think will have much higher upside in year 4 than any of the above. Some might argue by defense and FT shooting that Towns is better than OK4 now though -- either way, he is not 4 years off. I think he just projects higher later. I do not expect Stein to ever be a max player. Russell, Mudiay, Winslow, Herzonga, Porzingis all have potential to be max players by year 4, I am less convinced they each will be than OK4 or Towns. Not all of them will be.

I'm not saying we should not draft the player with the highest potential -- all I am saying is that once you get past the player that project as sure thing max players at year 4, teams should filter into two categories -- best player now vs projects/stashes - but more accurately based on need.

Here's the thing. In 2016 the salary cap will jump. Meaning the valuation on the rookie max contract (calculated at 25% of the then cap) will shoot up as well. What this means to me is that there will be a lot more room for contract pricing between good players and max players (a player worth $15MM today may not be a 'max' player after 2016, where the rookie max contract projects to be over 20mm.

That puts a lot of players into the category of the 'not max' players, meaning that the comparison between them should be based on only the first 4 years of action - with some discounted valuation for their probability of becoming a max player. I think this means the value of more ready players should increase in this draft and many 'projects' should be passed over because teams will likely NOT be able to reap the benefit of their development UNLESS, they are stashed overseas.

I don't think this means ANYTHING for the Knicks in this draft. I think this analysis really only kicks in after the to 7 or 8. Stein should go higher this year than he would have in prior years, but unlike Briggs, I don't think he goes as high as the Knicks will draft (Top 5)