Knicks · If you could start your team off with one of these players who would you start with in their prime? (page 2)

BRIGGS wrote:

callmened wrote:anthony, vince - no defense just scoring/losers
stockton - i only saw the end of his career and he wasnt too impressive/but i appreciate a passer who makes their teams better
mchale = im only picking kevin cuz i wasnt around to know his ups and downs/i only know that he won 3 rings/barkley calls him the best big man hes ever played

slight edge of McHale over stockton simply due to the myth

wow no myth--Kevin Mchale was great--he mightve been better on a different team--he couldve easily averaged 25-30 points elsewhere. When people say great footwork in the post--they are not talking about Tim Duncan--they are talking to the master Kevin Mchale. The only guy who was better than Mchale in the post was Hakeem.

exzctly people voting Stockton never seen Mchale play. What's the point of this anyway. Random group of players

And if you are doing to going to say Mchale had Bird then Stockton had Malone

jrodmc wrote:Interesting.

McHale plays almost his entire career with Bird, and also gets to be a "legend". I saw him play regularly. Nothing incredible.
Stockton played his entire career with Malone. Tough, dirty, gritty guard. If he's not playing with an all time great PF, what separates him from Scott
Skiles?

Nice list, BRIGGS. What exactly was the agenda here?

Do you even watch basketball? Scott Skiles lol!

jrodmc wrote:Interesting.

McHale plays almost his entire career with Bird, and also gets to be a "legend". I saw him play regularly. Nothing incredible.
Stockton played his entire career with Malone. Tough, dirty, gritty guard. If he's not playing with an all time great PF, what separates him from Scott
Skiles?

Nice list, BRIGGS. What exactly was the agenda here?

maybe that all time great PF was great because of him?

this guy made shandon anderson and eisley look great too.

You comparing him to skiles if funny.

Stockton was more like steve nash with much better defense.

To me, stockton is one of the most underrated players of all time.

gunsnewing wrote:And if you are doing to going to say Mchale had Bird then Stockton had Malone

I was watching Houston and Im thinking to myself--how many people know how good Kevin Mchale was or do they even know he played basketball? I don't view Mchale as a superstar of his era kind of like Vince Carter or Carmelo now--really good players but not the elite but really he was a top 50 player of all time--well deserved. Then a John Stockton ad came on and the question came out. Like I said its really close--I think the difference is two top 50 players vs two multi all stars. How can anyone watch 5 minutes of basketball and compare John Stockton to Scott Skiles or say I watched Kevin Mchale regularly and he was nothing special? Kevin Mchale basically was the foundational player for post moves in the NBA. You say Mchale and hakeem and then everyone else even Duncan are below. Do people know that John Stockton played 18 years and still averaged .54 on 2pg FG for his career? That he was the leading steals leader of all time besides assists? John Stockton couldve played until he was 45 easily.

Briggs in your poll, you selected only one Champion which has 3 rings, and NO ONE else on there has any rings, thoguh I do not think rings should be a huge factor on evaluating talent it measures how well one could contribute when the game changes in the clutch moments...

Did you select only 1 BIG on purpose to try to prove a point?

It is hard to put McHale and Stockton there as many have not watched them play, especially in their primes...

When evaluating talent, you still have to evaluate the talent that they have in their respective teams as well, you simply you need talent to win a RING
Vince Carter was an amazing talent if you are talking about in their prime that I think was better personally better than CA

Stockton lead a bunch of role players with Malone to as far as they could possibly go, it shows how role players are actually important, in the right system, with the right role players that fit those roles, can make a difference
And Jeff Horneck with Stockton were 2 defensive liabilities though Hornececk did pretty well considering their lack of size, with Jeff playing the 2 while Jordan was playing the 2....

I think it has to go with McHale, though I didn't watch him, I do not he was one of the better BIGS and SOLID ROLE PLAYERS at his time, that had a little unorthadox movememnt in him that made him hard to defend with his size/athleticism/post skills/and rebounding/defense

In picking a piece to start out with you also have to consider which talents you can select to play with them
in their primes, in my opinion,

McHale *with Bird and many very good role players and a solid defender in their Center to pair with him*

Stockton *just initiated a lot of the OFFENSE and facilitated for many role players that lead to good % shots, and was under rated on DEFENSE/setting screens/ and though some were dirty and he did a lot of dirty/tough plays with leadership/controlling tempo/intangibles that were under rated*

Vince Carter *could argue that he could go higher if he played with another STAR in his prime in Toronto, though he should have been a better defender consdering he had the combination of size/athleticism/strength to play better DEFENSE*

By far CA is the worse on the list...

BRIGGS wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Interesting.

McHale plays almost his entire career with Bird, and also gets to be a "legend". I saw him play regularly. Nothing incredible.
Stockton played his entire career with Malone. Tough, dirty, gritty guard. If he's not playing with an all time great PF, what separates him from Scott
Skiles?

Nice list, BRIGGS. What exactly was the agenda here?

Do you even watch basketball? Scott Skiles lol!

Stockton probably would have been just another Raymond Felton if it wasn't for Malone

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Interesting.

McHale plays almost his entire career with Bird, and also gets to be a "legend". I saw him play regularly. Nothing incredible.
Stockton played his entire career with Malone. Tough, dirty, gritty guard. If he's not playing with an all time great PF, what separates him from Scott
Skiles?

Nice list, BRIGGS. What exactly was the agenda here?

Do you even watch basketball? Scott Skiles lol!

Stockton probably would have been just another Raymond Felton if it wasn't for Malone

Scott Skiles and Ray Felton are somewhat close maybe Felton was better from start of career to end. Stockton was a freak -- one of the quickest players of all time with the ball in his hands. Its a hard judgement call between Mchale and Stockton--great debate there.

BRIGGS wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:And if you are doing to going to say Mchale had Bird then Stockton had Malone

I was watching Houston and Im thinking to myself--how many people know how good Kevin Mchale was or do they even know he played basketball? I don't view Mchale as a superstar of his era kind of like Vince Carter or Carmelo now--really good players but not the elite but really he was a top 50 player of all time--well deserved. Then a John Stockton ad came on and the question came out. Like I said its really close--I think the difference is two top 50 players vs two multi all stars. How can anyone watch 5 minutes of basketball and compare John Stockton to Scott Skiles or say I watched Kevin Mchale regularly and he was nothing special? Kevin Mchale basically was the foundational player for post moves in the NBA. You say Mchale and hakeem and then everyone else even Duncan are below. Do people know that John Stockton played 18 years and still averaged .54 on 2pg FG for his career? That he was the leading steals leader of all time besides assists? John Stockton couldve played until he was 45 easily.

Well I don't value any of Jrod's opinions so it is no surprise to me he would make that comment

BRIGGS wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Interesting.

McHale plays almost his entire career with Bird, and also gets to be a "legend". I saw him play regularly. Nothing incredible.
Stockton played his entire career with Malone. Tough, dirty, gritty guard. If he's not playing with an all time great PF, what separates him from Scott
Skiles?

Nice list, BRIGGS. What exactly was the agenda here?

Do you even watch basketball? Scott Skiles lol!

Stockton probably would have been just another Raymond Felton if it wasn't for Malone

Scott Skiles and Ray Felton are somewhat close maybe Felton was better from start of career to end. Stockton was a freak -- one of the quickest players of all time with the ball in his hands. Its a hard judgement call between Mchale and Stockton--great debate there.

Yeah but Felton has a much more impressive criminal profile

Stockton, in his prime, in today's NBA would be unstoppable. Don't forget, he played a lot of his prime years when handchecking was allowed and he still got to the rim whenever he wanted. He could easily average 15apg or more.

I think with the focus on PG play now, I'd start with Stockton.

Which is one reason I'd consider drafting D'Angelo Russell even if I had the first pick in this draft.

crzymdups wrote:Stockton, in his prime, in today's NBA would be unstoppable. Don't forget, he played a lot of his prime years when handchecking was allowed and he still got to the rim whenever he wanted. He could easily average 15apg or more.

I think with the focus on PG play now, I'd start with Stockton.

Which is one reason I'd consider drafting D'Angelo Russell even if I had the first pick in this draft.

He'd get the hoops at will in an era where defense was MUCH harder to deal with and shot 57% or better from 2 5 different times--just unheard of numbers. No other PG did those numbers.

just a random question...and again folks, im not sure of the average age here...im 30 and started watching bball in the mid 90s

but if the 80s were so much more harder (with handchecking) why were scores always in the 120s? lol.

callmened wrote:just a random question...and again folks, im not sure of the average age here...im 30 and started watching bball in the mid 90s

but if the 80s were so much more harder (with handchecking) why were scores always in the 120s? lol.

I think defenses were just much more physical and the fouls called were less touch fouls and more actual hard fouls. Some of the fouls the Pistons and Knicks used to hit guys with would definitely be flagrants now.

I started watching in the late 80s and didn't really pay close attention til Riley got to NY, so I don't know quite as much about the league.

It could be one of those things were memories were playing tricks - but the Knicks used to basically hold the opposing PG. They'd definitely always just have a hand resting on the point guard at all times at the top of the key which isn't allowed any more.

With all the spacing and pick and rolls and lack of hand checking, I think Stockton would put up some crazy numbers. Though maybe pick and roll defense is better now? Back then it seemed like the Jazz were the only team that understood that pick and roll could be run every single time down the floor.

crzymdups wrote:

callmened wrote:just a random question...and again folks, im not sure of the average age here...im 30 and started watching bball in the mid 90s

but if the 80s were so much more harder (with handchecking) why were scores always in the 120s? lol.

I think defenses were just much more physical and the fouls called were less touch fouls and more actual hard fouls. Some of the fouls the Pistons and Knicks used to hit guys with would definitely be flagrants now.

I started watching in the late 80s and didn't really pay close attention til Riley got to NY, so I don't know quite as much about the league.

It could be one of those things were memories were playing tricks - but the Knicks used to basically hold the opposing PG. They'd definitely always just have a hand resting on the point guard at all times at the top of the key which isn't allowed any more.

With all the spacing and pick and rolls and lack of hand checking, I think Stockton would put up some crazy numbers. Though maybe pick and roll defense is better now? Back then it seemed like the Jazz were the only team that understood that pick and roll could be run every single time down the floor.

also looking at this is interesting: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leag...

Look at the league average Pace - the game used to be played so much faster in the 80s and early 90s. so higher scores didn't necessarily mean worse defense, just more running and games played at a faster pace. Fg attempts per game were like 90 as opposed to closer to 80 now. And there were a lot more FTs back in the late 80s, early 90s too. just more possessions because of the faster pace. i don't know how to adjust for that to say whether defense is "better" or "worse" now.

gotcha...thanks for that explanation. makes sense

BRIGGS wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:And if you are doing to going to say Mchale had Bird then Stockton had Malone

I was watching Houston and Im thinking to myself--how many people know how good Kevin Mchale was or do they even know he played basketball? I don't view Mchale as a superstar of his era kind of like Vince Carter or Carmelo now--really good players but not the elite but really he was a top 50 player of all time--well deserved. Then a John Stockton ad came on and the question came out. Like I said its really close--I think the difference is two top 50 players vs two multi all stars. How can anyone watch 5 minutes of basketball and compare John Stockton to Scott Skiles or say I watched Kevin Mchale regularly and he was nothing special? Kevin Mchale basically was the foundational player for post moves in the NBA. You say Mchale and hakeem and then everyone else even Duncan are below. Do people know that John Stockton played 18 years and still averaged .54 on 2pg FG for his career? That he was the leading steals leader of all time besides assists? John Stockton couldve played until he was 45 easily.

I think McHale is kind of overrated and Parrish is underrated. In no particular order, I have Barkley, nowitzki, Garnett, Malone, Duncan and Petit over him. McHale is on that next tier with Elvin Hayes, Pau, Dolph Schayes, Webber, Rodman etc. I expect Griffin and Anthony to make that list barring injury. Chris Bosh is another who has been putting in work.

I chose McHale. If you think about it out all those guys McHale won a championship. Stockton is an HOF player he is second on my list. Vince should never have left Raptors that was his team his country. Melo is a good player but if he played in the 80s he would be in the shadows of some great players. Players like Bird, Dr. J, Jordan, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Malone, English, Gervin, Wilkins, Magic, Worthy, Kareem, Agguire, Dantley, King. Does Melo even get consideration. The thing is Vince would have made a name for himself because he can dunk like Wilkins. What would Melo's claim to fame be in that time period.

BRIGGS wrote:I have Stockton slightly in front of Mchale with Carmelo third and Vince 4th.

I agree Briggs.

I walked past McHale a few years ago at the Vegas Summer League --- the guy is huge.

He could barely get his head and shoulders under/thru the door.