Knicks · Realistically - can we get a late first rounder for THjr? Early second rounder? (page 2)

crzymdups wrote:

holfresh wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

holfresh wrote:Why do we always want to run our young players out of town without giving them the chance to grow..It doesn't happen overnight..

So we can complain when they perform well on another team

I was highly, vocally against trading Shumpert. I knew it was going to happen, but I always thought it'd be a mistake. I was against trading Ariza. I hated that move. It's not about giving up too early on young guys - it's about making the right trades and getting value for assets. Like how the Mavs are trying to get DEANDRE JORDAN for Tyson Chandler instead of Jose Calderon.

Anyway. Whatever.

But you are trying to line up Tim Jr for a trade...

All players are not created equal.

I would have kept Tyson and Shump.

I don't have much faith in Timmy.

holfresh wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

holfresh wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

holfresh wrote:Why do we always want to run our young players out of town without giving them the chance to grow..It doesn't happen overnight..

So we can complain when they perform well on another team

I was highly, vocally against trading Shumpert. I knew it was going to happen, but I always thought it'd be a mistake. I was against trading Ariza. I hated that move. It's not about giving up too early on young guys - it's about making the right trades and getting value for assets. Like how the Mavs are trying to get DEANDRE JORDAN for Tyson Chandler instead of Jose Calderon.

Anyway. Whatever.

But you are trying to line up Tim Jr for a trade...

All players are not created equal.

I would have kept Tyson and Shump.

I don't have much faith in Timmy.

Tim has been here two years..Way too soon to pull the trigger given how the triangle screwed guys up last year..Tim had a good rookie year...There is no reason to give up on him so soon..

Timmy has had flashes, just like Shump. I'd trade him for a first rounder this year (or next) in a heart beat. You're not giving up on youth, just rolling the dice again.

Our problem is we've got a back court that is stocked with marginal talent - we need 2-3 really good players instead of 4 ok players.

Gallo
Jose
Hardaway
Shved
Larkin
Ledo.

Larkin is in all likelihood gone.

Which of those are starters on any play off team?

Fishmike will rightly point out Jose. He's probably not going anywhere and is the veteran presence for a youth movement. FO will hope he bounces back- stays healthy and shoots better.

Out of the rest, who is the starting SG? Timmy? At best, he is a spark off the bench like Jamal Crawford. Out worst, he's out of the league in another year or two.

I think the question is do you trade him for a second round pick this year? I don't think any teams will give up a first in this draft.

franco12 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

holfresh wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

holfresh wrote:Why do we always want to run our young players out of town without giving them the chance to grow..It doesn't happen overnight..

So we can complain when they perform well on another team

I was highly, vocally against trading Shumpert. I knew it was going to happen, but I always thought it'd be a mistake. I was against trading Ariza. I hated that move. It's not about giving up too early on young guys - it's about making the right trades and getting value for assets. Like how the Mavs are trying to get DEANDRE JORDAN for Tyson Chandler instead of Jose Calderon.

Anyway. Whatever.

But you are trying to line up Tim Jr for a trade...

All players are not created equal.

I would have kept Tyson and Shump.

I don't have much faith in Timmy.

Tim has been here two years..Way too soon to pull the trigger given how the triangle screwed guys up last year..Tim had a good rookie year...There is no reason to give up on him so soon..

Timmy has had flashes, just like Shump. I'd trade him for a first rounder this year (or next) in a heart beat. You're not giving up on youth, just rolling the dice again.

Our problem is we've got a back court that is stocked with marginal talent - we need 2-3 really good players instead of 4 ok players.

Gallo
Jose
Hardaway
Shved
Larkin
Ledo.

Larkin is in all likelihood gone.

Which of those are starters on any play off team?

Fishmike will rightly point out Jose. He's probably not going anywhere and is the veteran presence for a youth movement. FO will hope he bounces back- stays healthy and shoots better.

Out of the rest, who is the starting SG? Timmy? At best, he is a spark off the bench like Jamal Crawford. Out worst, he's out of the league in another year or two.

I think the question is do you trade him for a second round pick this year? I don't think any teams will give up a first in this draft.

At he end of the year, Ledo could not get off the bench because of Timmy's good play..

holfresh wrote:

At he end of the year, Ledo could not get off the bench because of Timmy's good play..

All that cost us was Karl Anthony Towns.

crzymdups wrote:

holfresh wrote:

At he end of the year, Ledo could not get off the bench because of Timmy's good play..

All that cost us was Karl Anthony Towns.

It may well have..

holfresh wrote:

franco12 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

holfresh wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

holfresh wrote:Why do we always want to run our young players out of town without giving them the chance to grow..It doesn't happen overnight..

So we can complain when they perform well on another team

I was highly, vocally against trading Shumpert. I knew it was going to happen, but I always thought it'd be a mistake. I was against trading Ariza. I hated that move. It's not about giving up too early on young guys - it's about making the right trades and getting value for assets. Like how the Mavs are trying to get DEANDRE JORDAN for Tyson Chandler instead of Jose Calderon.

Anyway. Whatever.

But you are trying to line up Tim Jr for a trade...

All players are not created equal.

I would have kept Tyson and Shump.

I don't have much faith in Timmy.

Tim has been here two years..Way too soon to pull the trigger given how the triangle screwed guys up last year..Tim had a good rookie year...There is no reason to give up on him so soon..

Timmy has had flashes, just like Shump. I'd trade him for a first rounder this year (or next) in a heart beat. You're not giving up on youth, just rolling the dice again.

Our problem is we've got a back court that is stocked with marginal talent - we need 2-3 really good players instead of 4 ok players.

Gallo
Jose
Hardaway
Shved
Larkin
Ledo.

Larkin is in all likelihood gone.

Which of those are starters on any play off team?

Fishmike will rightly point out Jose. He's probably not going anywhere and is the veteran presence for a youth movement. FO will hope he bounces back- stays healthy and shoots better.

Out of the rest, who is the starting SG? Timmy? At best, he is a spark off the bench like Jamal Crawford. Out worst, he's out of the league in another year or two.

I think the question is do you trade him for a second round pick this year? I don't think any teams will give up a first in this draft.

At he end of the year, Ledo could not get off the bench because of Timmy's good play..

And if you think Timmy can do that for 82 games, you're crazy.

Shump started the year off strong, then faded.

Timmy at best is your instant offense guard off the bench.

We need starters. You might develop one from a late first round pick this year.

the dude has ability he just doesnt play defense. theres alot of players like that. i think hes the type (like JR) that excels when there are better players around him. so that hes the #4 or 5 option. he just needs to be a spot up shooter. the kid has a gift...he cant shoot (i dont care about his shooting %s..thats a product of being around bad player and bad ball movement). im hesistant about trading that away

franco12 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

franco12 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

holfresh wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

holfresh wrote:Why do we always want to run our young players out of town without giving them the chance to grow..It doesn't happen overnight..

So we can complain when they perform well on another team

I was highly, vocally against trading Shumpert. I knew it was going to happen, but I always thought it'd be a mistake. I was against trading Ariza. I hated that move. It's not about giving up too early on young guys - it's about making the right trades and getting value for assets. Like how the Mavs are trying to get DEANDRE JORDAN for Tyson Chandler instead of Jose Calderon.

Anyway. Whatever.

But you are trying to line up Tim Jr for a trade...

All players are not created equal.

I would have kept Tyson and Shump.

I don't have much faith in Timmy.

Tim has been here two years..Way too soon to pull the trigger given how the triangle screwed guys up last year..Tim had a good rookie year...There is no reason to give up on him so soon..

Timmy has had flashes, just like Shump. I'd trade him for a first rounder this year (or next) in a heart beat. You're not giving up on youth, just rolling the dice again.

Our problem is we've got a back court that is stocked with marginal talent - we need 2-3 really good players instead of 4 ok players.

Gallo
Jose
Hardaway
Shved
Larkin
Ledo.

Larkin is in all likelihood gone.

Which of those are starters on any play off team?

Fishmike will rightly point out Jose. He's probably not going anywhere and is the veteran presence for a youth movement. FO will hope he bounces back- stays healthy and shoots better.

Out of the rest, who is the starting SG? Timmy? At best, he is a spark off the bench like Jamal Crawford. Out worst, he's out of the league in another year or two.

I think the question is do you trade him for a second round pick this year? I don't think any teams will give up a first in this draft.

At he end of the year, Ledo could not get off the bench because of Timmy's good play..

And if you think Timmy can do that for 82 games, you're crazy.

Shump started the year off strong, then faded.

Timmy at best is your instant offense guard off the bench.

We need starters. You might develop one from a late first round pick this year.

U are prepared to trade him for an unknown quantity, not knowing what he is fully capable of..U have no idea what type of player he could be...Trading Tim Jr won't bring you a starter..

callmened wrote:i would prefer to keep timmy. why? young a dn cheap and the knicks tend to give up on their young.

the dude has ability he just doesnt play defense. theres alot of players like that. i think hes the type (like JR) that excels when there are better players around him. so that hes the #4 or 5 option. he just needs to be a spot up shooter. the kid has a gift...he cant shoot (i dont care about his shooting %s..thats a product of being around bad player and bad ball movement). im hesistant about trading that away

I'd be willing to give him a shot. But his play this past year was truly terrible.

Probably worth keeping him around to see if he can either improve to the point he fetches a 2016 first rounder or can be a steady rotation player here.

My main issue with him is I just think he's dumb.

holfresh wrote:

franco12 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

franco12 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

holfresh wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

holfresh wrote:Why do we always want to run our young players out of town without giving them the chance to grow..It doesn't happen overnight..

So we can complain when they perform well on another team

I was highly, vocally against trading Shumpert. I knew it was going to happen, but I always thought it'd be a mistake. I was against trading Ariza. I hated that move. It's not about giving up too early on young guys - it's about making the right trades and getting value for assets. Like how the Mavs are trying to get DEANDRE JORDAN for Tyson Chandler instead of Jose Calderon.

Anyway. Whatever.

But you are trying to line up Tim Jr for a trade...

All players are not created equal.

I would have kept Tyson and Shump.

I don't have much faith in Timmy.

Tim has been here two years..Way too soon to pull the trigger given how the triangle screwed guys up last year..Tim had a good rookie year...There is no reason to give up on him so soon..

Timmy has had flashes, just like Shump. I'd trade him for a first rounder this year (or next) in a heart beat. You're not giving up on youth, just rolling the dice again.

Our problem is we've got a back court that is stocked with marginal talent - we need 2-3 really good players instead of 4 ok players.

Gallo
Jose
Hardaway
Shved
Larkin
Ledo.

Larkin is in all likelihood gone.

Which of those are starters on any play off team?

Fishmike will rightly point out Jose. He's probably not going anywhere and is the veteran presence for a youth movement. FO will hope he bounces back- stays healthy and shoots better.

Out of the rest, who is the starting SG? Timmy? At best, he is a spark off the bench like Jamal Crawford. Out worst, he's out of the league in another year or two.

I think the question is do you trade him for a second round pick this year? I don't think any teams will give up a first in this draft.

At he end of the year, Ledo could not get off the bench because of Timmy's good play..

And if you think Timmy can do that for 82 games, you're crazy.

Shump started the year off strong, then faded.

Timmy at best is your instant offense guard off the bench.

We need starters. You might develop one from a late first round pick this year.

U are prepared to trade him for an unknown quantity, not knowing what he is fully capable of..U have no idea what type of player he could be...Trading Tim Jr won't bring you a starter..

If I could trade Timmy for a first rounder this year - you're right - that is an unknown quantity. But you're wrong to think that pick can't become a starter.

The draft is a roll of the dice, a spin of the wheel.

Timmy JR at best is - instant offense off the bench guard. Maybe he becomes Jamal Crawford/JR Smith good in a few years. But there is just as much chance that he is out of the league.

A first round pick this year is a roll of the dice. I rolled with Timmy and he is a '4'. I need 7 or 11. Might I roll snake eyes? Heck yes. But if I stand, then I know my back court is pathetic next year:

Calderon
Gallo
Timmy
Shved

1 undrafted player
1 player wrong side of 30 who should be released and stretched
1 nice player who is thinner than my soon to be 9 year old daughter
1 player who has great parentage and has shown flashes

And that is the back court you want to win how many games with?

Hardy for Atlanta's Jenkins works straight up.

crzymdups wrote:I don't believe in THjr from what I've seen. He has skills, but I think he's got rocks bouncing around in his head.

I'm willing to give Early more time to develop - I think he showed positive flashes. I think he needs to adapt to the speed of the NBA.

holfresh wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

holfresh wrote:Why do we always want to run our young players out of town without giving them the chance to grow..It doesn't happen overnight..

The problem is THjr is getting worse as time goes on. Whether this is endemic to the Knicks development strategies or if THjr just isnt that good is not clear but regardless the kid isn't worth much at this point. He is a streaky, volume scorer who sucks at defending and passing and rebounding and basically everything besides hitting shots *WHEN he is hot. That doesn't have much value.

No, the triangle screwed everyone up...They stopped fully implementing it when the kids took over..Tim Jr was going to the hole and looked like a different player after he returned from injury..It cost us nothing to keep him around..Lets do something different for a change, leave our kids alone...Doesn't watching Shump hurt enough???

Knicks1969 wrote:Given the success all exknicks are having, if I were THJ I would welcome a trade. He certainly regressed under the titullage of Fisher; and I don't foresee him getting better. He has the tools to be a special player, he just needs a strong hand like Pop to get it out of him.

Timmy did not regress. Fisher held his feet to the fire to play defense and Timmy lost or recreationally responded by bricking for a year. Then, at the end of the season he poisoned the tank. IMO, malicious behavior. Showing him the door is too good for him IMO.

fwk00 wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:Given the success all exknicks are having, if I were THJ I would welcome a trade. He certainly regressed under the titullage of Fisher; and I don't foresee him getting better. He has the tools to be a special player, he just needs a strong hand like Pop to get it out of him.

Timmy did not regress. Fisher held his feet to the fire to play defense and Timmy lost or recreationally responded by bricking for a year. Then, at the end of the season he poisoned the tank. IMO, malicious behavior. Showing him the door is too good for him IMO.

As you stated "in your opinion."

This kid was not properly handled from the start. He was surrounded by a bunch of shot happy guys who were not willing to set example for any of the young dudes to follow. All of the so called veterans were nothing but trigger happy cats whom have been known to be terrible defenders. Fisher needed to make an example out of Amare and Carmelo to truly catch everyone else's attention, but he was to chicken to pull such a move.

fwk00 wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:Given the success all exknicks are having, if I were THJ I would welcome a trade. He certainly regressed under the titullage of Fisher; and I don't foresee him getting better. He has the tools to be a special player, he just needs a strong hand like Pop to get it out of him.

Timmy did not regress. Fisher held his feet to the fire to play defense and Timmy lost or recreationally responded by bricking for a year. Then, at the end of the season he poisoned the tank. IMO, malicious behavior. Showing him the door is too good for him IMO.

Another issue is that, for the most part, he continued to play Woodson ball. Stand around on the perimeter when you don't have the ball, usually watching what Anthony will do, wait for the ball so you can shoot a 3, do some kind of ISO move for a shot, and if none exists, pass the ball off. He is not the type to move or cut to the basket after he passes the ball, which seems to be the preferred actions in the Triangle (I have seen Galloway even set picks.).

Hardaway did go to the hoop more often this year, and even showed creativity at times, but more often it was when he was dribbling.

I'm hoping that Hardaway can be salvaged, and at the very least he can become an off the bench spark plug who moves around like a Reddick type player, but cut to the basket more often.

WaltLongmire wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:Given the success all exknicks are having, if I were THJ I would welcome a trade. He certainly regressed under the titullage of Fisher; and I don't foresee him getting better. He has the tools to be a special player, he just needs a strong hand like Pop to get it out of him.

Timmy did not regress. Fisher held his feet to the fire to play defense and Timmy lost or recreationally responded by bricking for a year. Then, at the end of the season he poisoned the tank. IMO, malicious behavior. Showing him the door is too good for him IMO.

Willing to agree on the defense, cannot believe that Hardaway would act with an intent to hurt the team in this manner. You are also giving him credit for having some kind of Jordanesque, Birdlike, or Magic ability to turn on his game at will. THJ does not have this ability, sadly.

Another issue is that, for the most part, he continued to play Woodson ball. Stand around on the perimeter when you don't have the ball, usually watching what Anthony will do, wait for the ball so you can shoot a 3, do some kind of ISO move for a shot, and if none exists, pass the ball off. He is not the type to move or cut to the basket after he passes the ball, which seems to be the preferred actions in the Triangle (I have seen Galloway even set picks.).

Hardaway did go to the hoop more often this year, and even showed creativity at times, but more often it was when he was dribbling.

I'm hoping that Hardaway can be salvaged, and at the very least he can become an off the bench spark plug who moves around like a Reddick type player, but cut to the basket more often.

WaltLongmire wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:Given the success all exknicks are having, if I were THJ I would welcome a trade. He certainly regressed under the titullage of Fisher; and I don't foresee him getting better. He has the tools to be a special player, he just needs a strong hand like Pop to get it out of him.

Timmy did not regress. Fisher held his feet to the fire to play defense and Timmy lost or recreationally responded by bricking for a year. Then, at the end of the season he poisoned the tank. IMO, malicious behavior. Showing him the door is too good for him IMO.

Willing to agree on the defense, cannot believe that Hardaway would act with an intent to hurt the team in this manner. You are also giving him credit for having some kind of Jordanesque, Birdlike, or Magic ability to turn on his game at will. THJ does not have this ability, sadly.

Another issue is that, for the most part, he continued to play Woodson ball. Stand around on the perimeter when you don't have the ball, usually watching what Anthony will do, wait for the ball so you can shoot a 3, do some kind of ISO move for a shot, and if none exists, pass the ball off. He is not the type to move or cut to the basket after he passes the ball, which seems to be the preferred actions in the Triangle (I have seen Galloway even set picks.).

Hardaway did go to the hoop more often this year, and even showed creativity at times, but more often it was when he was dribbling.

I'm hoping that Hardaway can be salvaged, and at the very least he can become an off the bench spark plug who moves around like a Reddick type player, but cut to the basket more often.

WaltLongmire wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:Given the success all exknicks are having, if I were THJ I would welcome a trade. He certainly regressed under the titullage of Fisher; and I don't foresee him getting better. He has the tools to be a special player, he just needs a strong hand like Pop to get it out of him.

Timmy did not regress. Fisher held his feet to the fire to play defense and Timmy lost or recreationally responded by bricking for a year. Then, at the end of the season he poisoned the tank. IMO, malicious behavior. Showing him the door is too good for him IMO.

Willing to agree on the defense, cannot believe that Hardaway would act with an intent to hurt the team in this manner. You are also giving him credit for having some kind of Jordanesque, Birdlike, or Magic ability to turn on his game at will. THJ does not have this ability, sadly.

Another issue is that, for the most part, he continued to play Woodson ball. Stand around on the perimeter when you don't have the ball, usually watching what Anthony will do, wait for the ball so you can shoot a 3, do some kind of ISO move for a shot, and if none exists, pass the ball off. He is not the type to move or cut to the basket after he passes the ball, which seems to be the preferred actions in the Triangle (I have seen Galloway even set picks.).

Hardaway did go to the hoop more often this year, and even showed creativity at times, but more often it was when he was dribbling.

I'm hoping that Hardaway can be salvaged, and at the very least he can become an off the bench spark plug who moves around like a Reddick type player, but cut to the basket more often.

Jordan! How about Postell. He doesn't pass the ball. No defense. Child of entitlement.

What is the strategy of the second 1st round pick? Where do you want it who are you targeting? Will cost fray value?

This is a deep draft--can you wait for something similar in rnd 2 or even undrafted?