Knicks · Stein is there even 1 guy who is 7 feet 240 (page 1)

who plays PF in the nBA right with very raw offensive skills? Who am I comparing Stein to at PF? Blake Griffin or Tim Duncan--who is the guy we compare him to? Hes never been a great interior defender with his weak base

I'm a little worried about what it might do to you mentally if they draft Stein!

Bonn1997 wrote:I'm a little worried about what it might do to you mentally if they draft Stein!

To take a raw offensive player at pick #4 would be quite strange but it would follow in the footsteps of Laberdye and Thansis. So were building a team of non shooters. Go check out Greg Monroes averages past 6 feet. That means we''l have to players in the top 5 who can score outside of the paint no penetrating guards and a non passing star. YEP we should do just fine! Im sure Toronto will have fun with our 5 pick next year.

BRIGGS wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I'm a little worried about what it might do to you mentally if they draft Stein!

To take a raw offensive player at pick #4 would be quite strange but it would follow in the footsteps of Laberdye and Thansis. So were building a team of non shooters. Go check out Greg Monroes averages past 6 feet. That means we''l have to players in the top 5 who can score outside of the paint no penetrating guards and a non passing star. YEP we should do just fine! Im sure Toronto will have fun with our 5 pick next year.

Oh I agree. If we traded Tyson, sucked for a year, and then the only compensation was drafting a poor man's version of a poor man's version of Tyson, it would make our franchise even more of a joke.

BRIGGS wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I'm a little worried about what it might do to you mentally if they draft Stein!

To take a raw offensive player at pick #4 would be quite strange but it would follow in the footsteps of Laberdye and Thansis. So were building a team of non shooters. Go check out Greg Monroes averages past 6 feet. That means we''l have to players in the top 5 who can score outside of the paint no penetrating guards and a non passing star. YEP we should do just fine! Im sure Toronto will have fun with our 5 pick next year.

Drafting guys like Tanasis and the euro late in the second round is fine. If one works out you did really well. I think you are making a mistake if you are looking for a drafting pattern to apply to the 4th pick based on who the Knicks drafted at 51 and 58 last year.

CrushAlot wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I'm a little worried about what it might do to you mentally if they draft Stein!

To take a raw offensive player at pick #4 would be quite strange but it would follow in the footsteps of Laberdye and Thansis. So were building a team of non shooters. Go check out Greg Monroes averages past 6 feet. That means we''l have to players in the top 5 who can score outside of the paint no penetrating guards and a non passing star. YEP we should do just fine! Im sure Toronto will have fun with our 5 pick next year.

Drafting guys like Tanasis and the euro late in the second round is fine. If one works out you did really well. I think you are making a mistake if you are looking for a drafting pattern to apply to the 4th pick based on who the Knicks drafted at 51 and 58 last year.

I think its the same--they are overbearingly trying to focus on defense without taking offense into consideration. 1 year later Thansis is farther away from the NBA than in his two years in the D league. A guy like Stein can be neutralized in two ways--a team uses 30 3 points shots to spread the floor and smaller stronger athletes have been able to move Stein quite easily. So when he is matched up with guys like Randolph or Griffin or Duncan--they will get theirs but he does not have ability to get his--meaning net negative. He is Amare Stoudemire just the other way around.

Bonn1997 wrote:I'm a little worried about what it might do to you mentally if they draft Stein!

+1

CrushAlot wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I'm a little worried about what it might do to you mentally if they draft Stein!

To take a raw offensive player at pick #4 would be quite strange but it would follow in the footsteps of Laberdye and Thansis. So were building a team of non shooters. Go check out Greg Monroes averages past 6 feet. That means we''l have to players in the top 5 who can score outside of the paint no penetrating guards and a non passing star. YEP we should do just fine! Im sure Toronto will have fun with our 5 pick next year.

Drafting guys like Tanasis and the euro late in the second round is fine. If one works out you did really well. I think you are making a mistake if you are looking for a drafting pattern to apply to the 4th pick based on who the Knicks drafted at 51 and 58 last year.

I can't see the Knicks drafting WCS even if they trade down. The move is illogical no matter what angle you look at it.

why is Stein a pf now? Also you have Brandon Wright, Ed Davis, John Henson, Amir Johnson, Tristan Thompson, Derrick Favors, and Jonas Valanciunas to name a few who are raw PF/C at or under 240. Stein is 8lbs less than Towns and Joel Embiid Weighed the same last year. Tyson Chandler probably doesn't weigh 240 lbs right now so give it a rest please.

Boooo Stein. Hooray Kaminsky at 7'1 231 lbs and 9.1% body fat. For a normal person that's good but how much will Kaminsky weigh once he gets into shape?

yellowboy90 wrote:why is Stein a pf now? Also you have Brandon Wright, Ed Davis, John Henson, Amir Johnson, Tristan Thompson, Derrick Favors, and Jonas Valanciunas to name a few who are raw PF/C at or under 240. Stein is 8lbs less than Towns and Joel Embiid Weighed the same last year. Tyson Chandler probably doesn't weigh 240 lbs right now so give it a rest please.

Boooo Stein. Hooray Kaminsky at 7'1 231 lbs and 9.1% body fat. For a normal person that's good but how much will Kaminsky weigh once he gets into shape?

Kaminsky is your typical college player that shines in college and sucks in the nba. If it was the 1980 draft...his value is higher.....but todays nba is driven by athletes. ...unless he has a skill thats far more than anybody else....and the fire to be a go to guy.....otherwise hes a poor man Bargs. Great shooter when hes wide open. But once he has to chase down Griffin or get abused by zach Randolph. ....that jumper goes from great to very average. Withou his jumper hes worhless....which is why nbadraft.net has him going at 17....6 spots below WCS.

If it is possible Id trade down with the goal of getting Kaminsky Mickey and Fuzaro. I think Mickey by himself is a better defensive player than Stein but he also has an offensive game and that also has upside to it--AND hes a rebounder. With Mickey I can play Kaminsky at either 5 or 4. Mickey IMHO can guard 1-2-3-4-5. he can guard the ball coming up and hes long enough to both a 5 and everything in between. But he can score and he can be part of an offense.

Bonn1997 wrote:I'm a little worried about what it might do to you mentally if they draft Stein!

Maybe Briggs wants this to get back to Phil so he will take pity and steer away from Stein.

BRIGGS wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I'm a little worried about what it might do to you mentally if they draft Stein!

To take a raw offensive player at pick #4 would be quite strange but it would follow in the footsteps of Laberdye and Thansis. So were building a team of non shooters. Go check out Greg Monroes averages past 6 feet. That means we''l have to players in the top 5 who can score outside of the paint no penetrating guards and a non passing star. YEP we should do just fine! Im sure Toronto will have fun with our 5 pick next year.

I watched Thanasis early on in his first year in the dl and didn't think he was going to be an nba player. I watched him later in the year with the 87ers and thought he had improved a lot and was a prospect. I didn't study his stats but I watched him at Westchester this year and thought he was a good second round pick for the Knicks. I definitely did not think that he regressed as a player. I think if you are looking at Thanasis as a game changer for the Knicks you are looking at him in the wrong way. He will be in the nba for his defense. He also might be traded on draft night if the knicks are making moves.

yellowboy90 wrote:why is Stein a pf now? Also you have Brandon Wright, Ed Davis, John Henson, Amir Johnson, Tristan Thompson, Derrick Favors, and Jonas Valanciunas to name a few who are raw PF/C at or under 240. Stein is 8lbs less than Towns and Joel Embiid Weighed the same last year. Tyson Chandler probably doesn't weigh 240 lbs right now so give it a rest please.

Boooo Stein. Hooray Kaminsky at 7'1 231 lbs and 9.1% body fat. For a normal person that's good but how much will Kaminsky weigh once he gets into shape?

Kaminsky has a post game and can shoot the lights out. He is also an excellent passer. If you are looking at a guy who can play in different styles of offense, he is the one you want.

The issue with Stein is that he is limited as a player, and might be able to be pushed around on D more than you might think.

The only way he scores is on the pick and roll or on a fast break. There are many bigs who can finish on a P&R if they have the right PG setting them up, Stein might simply be a little more spectacular... but what happens on a pick and pop when he has to take a jump shot, and this was a popular play for the Knicks last year.

He's a limited player looking for the perfect team to play for. The Knicks are not that team.

WaltLongmire wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:why is Stein a pf now? Also you have Brandon Wright, Ed Davis, John Henson, Amir Johnson, Tristan Thompson, Derrick Favors, and Jonas Valanciunas to name a few who are raw PF/C at or under 240. Stein is 8lbs less than Towns and Joel Embiid Weighed the same last year. Tyson Chandler probably doesn't weigh 240 lbs right now so give it a rest please.

Boooo Stein. Hooray Kaminsky at 7'1 231 lbs and 9.1% body fat. For a normal person that's good but how much will Kaminsky weigh once he gets into shape?

Kaminsky has a post game and can shoot the lights out. He is also an excellent passer. If you are looking at a guy who can play in different styles of offense, he is the one you want.

The issue with Stein is that he is limited as a player, and might be able to be pushed around on D more than you might think.

The only way he scores is on the pick and roll or on a fast break. There are many bigs who can finish on a P&R if they have the right PG setting them up, Stein might simply be a little more spectacular... but what happens on a pick and pop when he has to take a jump shot, and this was a popular play for the Knicks last year.

He's a limited player looking for the perfect team to play for. The Knicks are not that team.

You are very correct in their styles but I am skeptical Frank's post game will translate until he gets stronger. I am not a big Stein Fan but if the Knicks move back and want to take him I could live with it.

yellowboy90 wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:why is Stein a pf now? Also you have Brandon Wright, Ed Davis, John Henson, Amir Johnson, Tristan Thompson, Derrick Favors, and Jonas Valanciunas to name a few who are raw PF/C at or under 240. Stein is 8lbs less than Towns and Joel Embiid Weighed the same last year. Tyson Chandler probably doesn't weigh 240 lbs right now so give it a rest please.

Boooo Stein. Hooray Kaminsky at 7'1 231 lbs and 9.1% body fat. For a normal person that's good but how much will Kaminsky weigh once he gets into shape?

Kaminsky has a post game and can shoot the lights out. He is also an excellent passer. If you are looking at a guy who can play in different styles of offense, he is the one you want.

The issue with Stein is that he is limited as a player, and might be able to be pushed around on D more than you might think.

The only way he scores is on the pick and roll or on a fast break. There are many bigs who can finish on a P&R if they have the right PG setting them up, Stein might simply be a little more spectacular... but what happens on a pick and pop when he has to take a jump shot, and this was a popular play for the Knicks last year.

He's a limited player looking for the perfect team to play for. The Knicks are not that team.

You are very correct in their styles but I am skeptical Frank's post game will translate until he gets stronger. I am not a big Stein Fan but if the Knicks move back and want to take him I could live with it.

Id rather take Mickey he has a very nice upside as an offensive player and I think right now as in today hes a much better all around defender than Stein. hes quicker stronger and more versatile. And he actually can rebound and make jumpshots.

7feet 240lb guys who don't put up big offensive numbers -

Andrew Bogut
Timofy Mozgov

oh hey weird those are the two starting centers in the NBA finals. Bogut is certainly ABLE to put up numbers, but his role doesn't call for it on GSW.

More guys:

DeAndre Jordan
Tyson Chandler

Rudy Gobert - Jazz improved a lot when they traded your boy Kanter and started Gobert.

Actually, I think that's a fairly valid way to look at this Kanter as Kaminsky, Gobert as Stein. Utah played much better once Kanter left. OKC missed the playoffs with Kanter putting up the best numbers of his career.

Offense at the center position is not a requirement for a winning in the NBA. Defense often is.

crzymdups wrote:7feet 240lb guys who don't put up big offensive numbers -

Andrew Bogut
Timofy Mozgov

oh hey weird those are the two starting centers in the NBA finals. Bogut is certainly ABLE to put up numbers, but his role doesn't call for it on GSW.

More guys:

DeAndre Jordan
Tyson Chandler

Rudy Gobert - Jazz improved a lot when they traded your boy Kanter and started Gobert.

Actually, I think that's a fairly valid way to look at this Kanter as Kaminsky, Gobert as Stein. Utah played much better once Kanter left. OKC missed the playoffs with Kanter putting up the best numbers of his career.

Offense at the center position is not a requirement for a winning in the NBA. Defense often is.

Yeah right. Go watch the final four game against Wisconsin and watch Nigel Hayes push Willie Stein all over the floor. Watching him in more depth hes a tad scared of contact--strange for a guy who played football. Andrew Bogut was actually an excellent offensive player at Utah and Mosgov is also a better offensive player--not even close. Willie is reliant on missed shots and lobs.
crz--go look at Jordan Mickey--hes a much better all around defender than Stein but he actually has an offensive game and rebounds.

yellowboy90 wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:why is Stein a pf now? Also you have Brandon Wright, Ed Davis, John Henson, Amir Johnson, Tristan Thompson, Derrick Favors, and Jonas Valanciunas to name a few who are raw PF/C at or under 240. Stein is 8lbs less than Towns and Joel Embiid Weighed the same last year. Tyson Chandler probably doesn't weigh 240 lbs right now so give it a rest please.

Boooo Stein. Hooray Kaminsky at 7'1 231 lbs and 9.1% body fat. For a normal person that's good but how much will Kaminsky weigh once he gets into shape?

Kaminsky has a post game and can shoot the lights out. He is also an excellent passer. If you are looking at a guy who can play in different styles of offense, he is the one you want.

The issue with Stein is that he is limited as a player, and might be able to be pushed around on D more than you might think.

The only way he scores is on the pick and roll or on a fast break. There are many bigs who can finish on a P&R if they have the right PG setting them up, Stein might simply be a little more spectacular... but what happens on a pick and pop when he has to take a jump shot, and this was a popular play for the Knicks last year.

He's a limited player looking for the perfect team to play for. The Knicks are not that team.

You are very correct in their styles but I am skeptical Frank's post game will translate until he gets stronger. I am not a big Stein Fan but if the Knicks move back and want to take him I could live with it.

Might be why Kaminsky is working on that Dirk midrange fall back shot. I though his post up game against Kentucky was pretty decent, though.

For me Stein is a guy you might take if you can get an extra pick. I really do think he has value in a rotation, despite my criticism of his game, but, unlike some, I don't see him as a building block in my starting 5.

BRIGGS wrote:

crzymdups wrote:7feet 240lb guys who don't put up big offensive numbers -

Andrew Bogut
Timofy Mozgov

oh hey weird those are the two starting centers in the NBA finals. Bogut is certainly ABLE to put up numbers, but his role doesn't call for it on GSW.

More guys:

DeAndre Jordan
Tyson Chandler

Rudy Gobert - Jazz improved a lot when they traded your boy Kanter and started Gobert.

Actually, I think that's a fairly valid way to look at this Kanter as Kaminsky, Gobert as Stein. Utah played much better once Kanter left. OKC missed the playoffs with Kanter putting up the best numbers of his career.

Offense at the center position is not a requirement for a winning in the NBA. Defense often is.

Yeah right. Go watch the final four game against Wisconsin and watch Nigel Hayes push Willie Stein all over the floor. Watching him in more depth hes a tad scared of contact--strange for a guy who played football. Andrew Bogut was actually an excellent offensive player at Utah and Mosgov is also a better offensive player--not even close. Willie is reliant on missed shots and lobs.
crz--go look at Jordan Mickey--hes a much better all around defender than Stein but he actually has an offensive game and rebounds.

Briggs, the final four isn't the end all and be all of basketball. Sean May and Raymond Felton dominated guys in the NCAA tournament in 2005. Did that mean they became the best players in the 2005 draft? No, it didn't.

I think Stein will do well in the NBA. We'll see, I guess.

WCS is exactly what this team needs. He's not your typical defensive Center. He's basically a Free Safety roaming the court and helping shutdown PnR, 3pt shots and still being able to get back to the paint for rim protection. I've been reading all the negatives that have been mentioned and it's sad to see people reaching so hard.

1. WCS had a Defensive Rating of 80. Not a lot of scoring was happening with him around. He did this mostly covering PnR and helping against quick perimeter players. We all saw how he stayed with Jerian Grant

Very few players are as fast and laterally-quick as Cauley-Stein, much less big men. Only seven players have lane agility and sprint scores that combine for fewer seconds than him, and none of them measure over 6'4.

As more NBA teams switch pick and rolls and off-ball screens, many head coaches will feel comfortable allowing Cauley-Stein to defend the perimeter. Most big men get exposed if they're away from the paint. Cauley-Stein won't be, offering his NBA team unique versatility.

We've talked about his lateral quickness, but he can protect the rim too. If a team rotation is missed, he's swift enough to get to the other side of the court and long enough to block or at least deter the play. And he has even matured to the point where he resists the natural urge of a young shot blocker to leave his feet and commit fouls. These defensive attributes will all translate to the next level.

While it's true Cauley-Stein can't score in the low post or facilitate offense like his contemporaries, those draft prospects don't have near his ability on the defensive end. Scoring is sexy, but defense is also a necessity and Cauley-Stein brings that at the highest of levels.

2. WCS had a Box Plus Minus of 14.7 despite not getting a lot of offensive possessions. Just a few more PnR looks a game and he would've had an even higher +/-.
As it is he was a top 10 +/- player. The offense UK ran is congested and not optimal for WCS to excel. He'll have more room in the NBA to attack the basket. WCS scored at 72.5% at the rim and he does have a basic Jump Hook and Mid Range Jumper. There is potential for him to improve given his improvement in FT shooting each season from 37.2% to 61.7% this year.

The Knicks biggest issue was guarding the 3pt line. Now if they drafted WCS he would allow our perimeter defenders to not have to worry about penetration and they could focus on staying with their man on the perimeter. He makes everyones job that much easier. When you have someone who can cover so much ground and has the length and hops he has it would literally transform this team into a much improved defensive unit.

We didn't have anyone who could do this. If you think it wouldn't make a huge difference to have someone like WCS your bias is warping your brain.