Knicks · Mudiay as a Rookie (page 1)

Mudiay seems to have the most upside of the options that will likely be available to us at the 4 slot. However, will he be able to contribute as a rookie? From what I understand, his shooting is in need of developing and if he can improve his shot he might turn out better than Russell. I also assume he'll have to learn how to drive on NBA talent. Furthermore, he isn't that good of a defender yet. Don't get me wrong, I still would probably select him but I don't see much contribution for the first year or two. Overall, I'm going to keep lowering my expectations for the Knicks.

fin89 wrote:Mudiay seems to have the most upside of the options that will likely be available to us at the 4 slot. However, will he be able to contribute as a rookie? From what I understand, his shooting is in need of developing and if he can improve his shot he might turn out better than Russell. I also assume he'll have to learn how to drive on NBA talent. Furthermore, he isn't that good of a defender yet. Don't get me wrong, I still would probably select him but I don't see much contribution for the first year or two. Overall, I'm going to keep lowering my expectations for the Knicks.

Possibly what Anthony was thinking about when he cast doubt on the idea of drafting a PG at #4.

I expect some to shoot me down, but Phil and Carmelo both have a limited windows of opportunity. Phil might not take the BPA player if he can't make significant contributions early on. Does BPA mean for next year, or down the road? Are we really looking for the MRP- Most Ready Player, because Phil will probably not sign a second contract, and Anthony might be near the twilight of his career?

Just wondering...

First, consider how much would Will Bynum contribute. Then, subtract a little. I say that partly tongue in cheek but I think you'd have to have pretty low expectations next year and think long-term with him.

WaltLongmire wrote:

fin89 wrote:Mudiay seems to have the most upside of the options that will likely be available to us at the 4 slot. However, will he be able to contribute as a rookie? From what I understand, his shooting is in need of developing and if he can improve his shot he might turn out better than Russell. I also assume he'll have to learn how to drive on NBA talent. Furthermore, he isn't that good of a defender yet. Don't get me wrong, I still would probably select him but I don't see much contribution for the first year or two. Overall, I'm going to keep lowering my expectations for the Knicks.

Possibly what Anthony was thinking about when he cast doubt on the idea of drafting a PG at #4.

I expect some to shoot me down, but Phil and Carmelo both have a limited windows of opportunity. Phil might not take the BPA player if he can't make significant contributions early on. Does BPA mean for next year, or down the road? Are we really looking for the MRP- Most Ready Player, because Phil will probably not sign a second contract, and Anthony might be near the twilight of his career?

Just wondering...

I've said along they'll trade the pick or take Most Ready to Contribute.

I think Winslow is sort of the best compromise between all positions - he's definitely ready to contribute at a high level, he has all-star level upside, etc.

But, yeah, Phil and Melo are on a three year timeline AT MOST.

Mudiay has potential to be a TOP TIER PG like John Wall

The Triangle NEEDS ALL STAR TALENTS

We have no TOP STARS

Shaq/Kobe, Pau Gasol/Bynum/Kobe/Odom/Ariza, Jordan/Pippen/Kukoc/Rodman

Because of his potential, a team will likely be more willing to trade more for him especially Philly who has multiple assets and could use Muddiay and Russell for their future, and we take back

Muddiay
Russell
Dario Saric/Covington
Embid/Covington *as a stretch 4 with Saric*
Noel

with plenty of young rotational player on the minimum with many more draft picks as well, along with the cap space in 2017 to sign 2 MAX TOP TIER FA's

IF A TEAM IS WILLING TO PAY a premium in a trade due to his potential, we could consider it as well like

Mudiay for

Tony Wroten
2-3 1st rounders (one less if they take Calderon's contract)
LA's top 3 protected pick
Miami's TOP 10 protected pick
Philly's future pick

5 2nd rounders in this draft that we could use or stash
and other future 2nd rounders, with 2 1st rounders being the minimum depending on which 1st rounders they give up

IMO,
drafting a role player potential at 4 like would be a horrible mistake

Mudiay has the highest potential at 4 and the Triangle is versatile to begin with
He seems to have a great work ethic and be a WILLING PASSER to create for others
Getting the right trainers/development staff if we keep him or move him if a team is willing to give us a HUGE return

Mudiay will likely struggle a bit as a rookie. PG is one of the toughest positions to grasp and usually takes time. Mudiay has talent but there's no real way to assess if he would be the BPA at the #4 pick. He may have the most UPSIDE, but that doesn't mean he's the BPA. He would just have the most theoretical potential. There are less risky talents who have a ton of talent but maybe not as much "potential". Phil may decide to let someone else take the chance on Mudiay. I wouldn't blame him for that. If this was Towns, Okafor or Russell you have a better handle on who and what they are. There's a bit less risk IMO.

crzymdups wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

fin89 wrote:Mudiay seems to have the most upside of the options that will likely be available to us at the 4 slot. However, will he be able to contribute as a rookie? From what I understand, his shooting is in need of developing and if he can improve his shot he might turn out better than Russell. I also assume he'll have to learn how to drive on NBA talent. Furthermore, he isn't that good of a defender yet. Don't get me wrong, I still would probably select him but I don't see much contribution for the first year or two. Overall, I'm going to keep lowering my expectations for the Knicks.

Possibly what Anthony was thinking about when he cast doubt on the idea of drafting a PG at #4.

I expect some to shoot me down, but Phil and Carmelo both have a limited windows of opportunity. Phil might not take the BPA player if he can't make significant contributions early on. Does BPA mean for next year, or down the road? Are we really looking for the MRP- Most Ready Player, because Phil will probably not sign a second contract, and Anthony might be near the twilight of his career?

Just wondering...

I've said along they'll trade the pick or take Most Ready to Contribute.

I think Winslow is sort of the best compromise between all positions - he's definitely ready to contribute at a high level, he has all-star level upside, etc.

But, yeah, Phil and Melo are on a three year timeline AT MOST.

I prefer some of the bigs I've been supporting, but Winslow is physically mature, intelligent, can be a good defender at a few positions, likes to go to the basket, and is only about 2 months away from 18, so he probably has a good deal of upside- he can help in the next few years, but also has room to improve and be around for another 10+ years.

I might argue against taking him in certain threads, but if we end up with him I would come away pretty happy from this draft.

All comes down to our talent evaluators and whether they know what the heck they're doing.

nixluva wrote:Mudiay will likely struggle a bit as a rookie. PG is one of the toughest positions to grasp and usually takes time. Mudiay has talent but there's no real way to assess if he would be the BPA at the #4 pick. He may have the most UPSIDE, but that doesn't mean he's the BPA. He would just have the most theoretical potential. There are less risky talents who have a ton of talent but maybe not as much "potential". Phil may decide to let someone else take the chance on Mudiay. I wouldn't blame him for that. If this was Towns, Okafor or Russell you have a better handle on who and what they are. There's a bit less risk IMO.

I am assuming those 3 would be drafted above Mudiay
Hinkie has been scouting in DAY 1 in China and if he does pay a premium to build a young core of ALL STAR talents, he would still have much cap space/future draft picks to continue to improve

And I think Hinkie has strong interest in Mudiay to begin with and he has the ASSETS to make it happen and still have a lot of cap/future draft picks/young star players and could sign 2 MAX tier players in 2017

RonRon wrote:

nixluva wrote:Mudiay will likely struggle a bit as a rookie. PG is one of the toughest positions to grasp and usually takes time. Mudiay has talent but there's no real way to assess if he would be the BPA at the #4 pick. He may have the most UPSIDE, but that doesn't mean he's the BPA. He would just have the most theoretical potential. There are less risky talents who have a ton of talent but maybe not as much "potential". Phil may decide to let someone else take the chance on Mudiay. I wouldn't blame him for that. If this was Towns, Okafor or Russell you have a better handle on who and what they are. There's a bit less risk IMO.

I am assuming those 3 would be drafted above Mudiay
Hinkie has been scouting in DAY 1 in China and if he does pay a premium to build a young core of ALL STAR talents, he would still have much cap space/future draft picks to continue to improve

And I think Hinkie has strong interest in Mudiay to begin with and he has the ASSETS to make it happen and still have a lot of cap/future draft picks/young star players and could sign 2 MAX tier players in 2017

What Star players are you referring to in Philly? IF they draft Russell I would expect him to be a star. Don't know about the other players.

nixluva wrote:

RonRon wrote:

nixluva wrote:Mudiay will likely struggle a bit as a rookie. PG is one of the toughest positions to grasp and usually takes time. Mudiay has talent but there's no real way to assess if he would be the BPA at the #4 pick. He may have the most UPSIDE, but that doesn't mean he's the BPA. He would just have the most theoretical potential. There are less risky talents who have a ton of talent but maybe not as much "potential". Phil may decide to let someone else take the chance on Mudiay. I wouldn't blame him for that. If this was Towns, Okafor or Russell you have a better handle on who and what they are. There's a bit less risk IMO.

I am assuming those 3 would be drafted above Mudiay
Hinkie has been scouting in DAY 1 in China and if he does pay a premium to build a young core of ALL STAR talents, he would still have much cap space/future draft picks to continue to improve

And I think Hinkie has strong interest in Mudiay to begin with and he has the ASSETS to make it happen and still have a lot of cap/future draft picks/young star players and could sign 2 MAX tier players in 2017

What Star players are you referring to in Philly? IF they draft Russell I would expect him to be a star. Don't know about the other players.

The combo of Mudiay and Russell

Noel and Embid

SF/PF with Dario Saric and Robert Covington being the 4th/5th options on the team

RonRon wrote:Mudiay has potential to be a TOP TIER PG like John Wall

The Triangle NEEDS ALL STAR TALENTS

We have no TOP STARS

Shaq/Kobe, Pau Gasol/Bynum/Kobe/Odom/Ariza, Jordan/Pippen/Kukoc/Rodman

Because of his potential, a team will likely be more willing to trade more for him especially Philly who has multiple assets and could use Muddiay and Russell for their future, and we take back

Muddiay
Russell
Dario Saric/Covington
Embid/Covington *as a stretch 4 with Saric*
Noel

with plenty of young rotational player on the minimum with many more draft picks as well, along with the cap space in 2017 to sign 2 MAX TOP TIER FA's

IF A TEAM IS WILLING TO PAY a premium in a trade due to his potential, we could consider it as well like

Mudiay for

Tony Wroten
2-3 1st rounders (one less if they take Calderon's contract)
LA's top 3 protected pick
Miami's TOP 10 protected pick
Philly's future pick

5 2nd rounders in this draft that we could use or stash
and other future 2nd rounders, with 2 1st rounders being the minimum depending on which 1st rounders they give up

Why are you guys so quick to compare this kid to Wall or Westbrook? Do you realise how much more advance those two players were right out of college? This Mudiay dude does not have the skills of neither of those guys

Knicks1969 wrote:

RonRon wrote:Mudiay has potential to be a TOP TIER PG like John Wall

The Triangle NEEDS ALL STAR TALENTS

We have no TOP STARS

Shaq/Kobe, Pau Gasol/Bynum/Kobe/Odom/Ariza, Jordan/Pippen/Kukoc/Rodman

Because of his potential, a team will likely be more willing to trade more for him especially Philly who has multiple assets and could use Muddiay and Russell for their future, and we take back

Muddiay
Russell
Dario Saric/Covington
Embid/Covington *as a stretch 4 with Saric*
Noel

with plenty of young rotational player on the minimum with many more draft picks as well, along with the cap space in 2017 to sign 2 MAX TOP TIER FA's

IF A TEAM IS WILLING TO PAY a premium in a trade due to his potential, we could consider it as well like

Mudiay for

Tony Wroten
2-3 1st rounders (one less if they take Calderon's contract)
LA's top 3 protected pick
Miami's TOP 10 protected pick
Philly's future pick

5 2nd rounders in this draft that we could use or stash
and other future 2nd rounders, with 2 1st rounders being the minimum depending on which 1st rounders they give up

Why are you guys so quick to compare this kid to Wall or Westbrook? Do you realise how much more advance those two players were right out of college? This Mudiay dude does not have the skills of neither of those guys

Mudiay is all potential. ....he doesnt need to be a john wall or westbrook.....plus hes a better PG than they were as a rookie. Westbrook and wall are dynamic playmakers for themselves first.....Mudiay is a past fisrt PG out of the gate. I just think hes too wild with th3 ball at times.....but the potential to be great is there.....hes still well behind those guys.

High risk.....high reward,

Knicks1969 wrote:

RonRon wrote:Mudiay has potential to be a TOP TIER PG like John Wall

The Triangle NEEDS ALL STAR TALENTS

We have no TOP STARS

Shaq/Kobe, Pau Gasol/Bynum/Kobe/Odom/Ariza, Jordan/Pippen/Kukoc/Rodman

Because of his potential, a team will likely be more willing to trade more for him especially Philly who has multiple assets and could use Muddiay and Russell for their future, and we take back

Muddiay
Russell
Dario Saric/Covington
Embid/Covington *as a stretch 4 with Saric*
Noel

with plenty of young rotational player on the minimum with many more draft picks as well, along with the cap space in 2017 to sign 2 MAX TOP TIER FA's

IF A TEAM IS WILLING TO PAY a premium in a trade due to his potential, we could consider it as well like

Mudiay for

Tony Wroten
2-3 1st rounders (one less if they take Calderon's contract)
LA's top 3 protected pick
Miami's TOP 10 protected pick
Philly's future pick

5 2nd rounders in this draft that we could use or stash
and other future 2nd rounders, with 2 1st rounders being the minimum depending on which 1st rounders they give up

Why are you guys so quick to compare this kid to Wall or Westbrook? Do you realise how much more advance those two players were right out of college? This Mudiay dude does not have the skills of neither of those guys

From what I have seen of him he reminds me of Jason Kidd coming out of Cal. Big, fast with great court vision. He could end up being te best player in the draft. Also, Kidd couldn't hit the three coming out of college and evolved into a good 3 pt shooter.

Folks going gaga over solo workout vids...Not saying they're the be all and end all- but why isn't anyone willing to wait until Mudiay puts one out before being overly dismissive of him as a prospect?

Could it be that some folks don't care because they've made their decisions "come hell or high water?"

Some of the best evaluators in the country believe he might be special...but of course we have seen him and know more of him because we have a computer.

CrushAlot wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

RonRon wrote:Mudiay has potential to be a TOP TIER PG like John Wall

The Triangle NEEDS ALL STAR TALENTS

We have no TOP STARS

Shaq/Kobe, Pau Gasol/Bynum/Kobe/Odom/Ariza, Jordan/Pippen/Kukoc/Rodman

Because of his potential, a team will likely be more willing to trade more for him especially Philly who has multiple assets and could use Muddiay and Russell for their future, and we take back

Muddiay
Russell
Dario Saric/Covington
Embid/Covington *as a stretch 4 with Saric*
Noel

with plenty of young rotational player on the minimum with many more draft picks as well, along with the cap space in 2017 to sign 2 MAX TOP TIER FA's

IF A TEAM IS WILLING TO PAY a premium in a trade due to his potential, we could consider it as well like

Mudiay for

Tony Wroten
2-3 1st rounders (one less if they take Calderon's contract)
LA's top 3 protected pick
Miami's TOP 10 protected pick
Philly's future pick

5 2nd rounders in this draft that we could use or stash
and other future 2nd rounders, with 2 1st rounders being the minimum depending on which 1st rounders they give up

Why are you guys so quick to compare this kid to Wall or Westbrook? Do you realise how much more advance those two players were right out of college? This Mudiay dude does not have the skills of neither of those guys

From what I have seen of him he reminds me of Jason Kidd coming out of Cal. Big, fast with great court vision. He could end up being te best player in the draft. Also, Kidd couldn't hit the three coming out of college and evolved into a good 3 pt shooter.

Wow, great comparison Crush. I can definitely see that.

Well, he is compared to Wall, albeit not as good. Wall despite having more college experience struggled his first 2 or 3 seasons- in fact he got unfairly blasted by David Falk as everything thats wrong with the nba. It's only been the past 2 years he's completely turned round his reputation.

Are Knicks fans willing to wait 3 years? I doubt it...

MCW had a lot of the same flaws Mudiay has yet won rookie of the yr. Mudiay will be a 5 reb, 6-7ast, 1.5stls guard right out of the gate.He is NBA ready in those fields. Probably score 12-15pts as well and have 3.5 TOs as well as a rook. His shooting % is the only real question mark.

newyorknewyork wrote:MCW had a lot of the same flaws Mudiay has yet won rookie of the yr. Mudiay will be a 5 reb, 6-7ast, 1.5stls guard right out of the gate.He is NBA ready in those fields. Probably score 12-15pts as well and have 3.5 TOs as well as a rook. His shooting % is the only real question mark.

So, with the exception of scoring, he'll be basically as productive against NBA players right away as he was against the Chinese league guys? This seems like Knick fan fantasy land.

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:MCW had a lot of the same flaws Mudiay has yet won rookie of the yr. Mudiay will be a 5 reb, 6-7ast, 1.5stls guard right out of the gate.He is NBA ready in those fields. Probably score 12-15pts as well and have 3.5 TOs as well as a rook. His shooting % is the only real question mark.

So, with the exception of scoring, he'll be basically as productive against NBA players right away as he was against the Chinese leaguecollege guys? This seems like Knick fan fantasy land.

Don't know how Mudiay will eventually turn out, but your observation can be applied, with some personalization, to anyone coming out of the draft...No?

WaltLongmire wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:MCW had a lot of the same flaws Mudiay has yet won rookie of the yr. Mudiay will be a 5 reb, 6-7ast, 1.5stls guard right out of the gate.He is NBA ready in those fields. Probably score 12-15pts as well and have 3.5 TOs as well as a rook. His shooting % is the only real question mark.

So, with the exception of scoring, he'll be basically as productive against NBA players right away as he was against the Chinese leaguecollege guys? This seems like Knick fan fantasy land.

Don't know how Mudiay will eventually turn out, but your observation can be applied, with some personalization, to anyone coming out of the draft...No?

Yes, in fact it *should* be applied to most players coming out of the draft. There will not be many players who put up bigger #s as an NBA rookie than in their final college year.