Knicks · Okafor or Stein @ 4??????? (page 2)

blkexec wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I look at Okafor like a smaller Shaq or maybe at worst DeMarcus Cousins - I think he'll easily be a 25ppg scorer in the post. It's just a matter of constructing a team around him that makes sense.

When you have an offensive weapon like that down low, things become a lot easier to build around. You get some quick, agile, long 3 and D guys to spread the floor, maybe an enforcer or two to play defense down low.

It's traditionally pretty easy to build around a center like Okafor.

I agree with everything....But just a minor adjustment. It's easy to build around anybody with a defined skill set.

Okafor is a low post scorer....that damanded double teams in college, so you can assume he will have similar success in the NBA. But it's not gauranteed. But it's close to a good bet he will be successful offensively.

Another defined skill set is defense....If you know Stein will be one of the best defenders in the NBA, as far as protecting the rim and guarding PnR players. Then you can build around that defined skill set. It's only difficult with guys that are all potential, without a dominating specialty.

Towns might be the clear #1 pick.....But what is his specialty? It's hard to say with such a short college resume. And in HS, he was a jump shooting guard in a big mans body. Towns is in transition right now, defining a low post skill.....But he's still in training.

You know what you get with guys like Ok4, Kaminsky, Stein as an example.....So it's easier to build around players that have a specialty skill at something. For example, Melo is a scoring maching.....So you know there is no need to add another scoring monster. Instead you can focus a little on the other parts of the game, like intangles, defense, rebounding, efficient shooters (not volume shooters - we have that in Melo).

You're preaching to the choir. I have been a champion of Stein from the get go. I started that 25 page long Stein thread. I like Stein! Quite a bit! I've said all this about him already.

That said - I would take Okafor in a heart beat over him and so would any NBA GM. Okafor has a chance to be an unstoppable offensive weapon. If the Cavs had Okafor down low, the Warriors would not have won the championship. They wouldn't have been able to go small and they'd have been screwed.

As strange as that may sound, I don't believe Okafor is the superior talent. As much as I love offense, I don't believe it is more important then defense. Offense is easy to find, but not a great defender; specifically, a 7 footer that can impact all five positions on the floor.

blkexec wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I look at Okafor like a smaller Shaq or maybe at worst DeMarcus Cousins - I think he'll easily be a 25ppg scorer in the post. It's just a matter of constructing a team around him that makes sense.

When you have an offensive weapon like that down low, things become a lot easier to build around. You get some quick, agile, long 3 and D guys to spread the floor, maybe an enforcer or two to play defense down low.

It's traditionally pretty easy to build around a center like Okafor.

I agree with everything....But just a minor adjustment. It's easy to build around anybody with a defined skill set.

Okafor is a low post scorer....that damanded double teams in college, so you can assume he will have similar success in the NBA. But it's not gauranteed. But it's close to a good bet he will be successful offensively.

Another defined skill set is defense....If you know Stein will be one of the best defenders in the NBA, as far as protecting the rim and guarding PnR players. Then you can build around that defined skill set. It's only difficult with guys that are all potential, without a dominating specialty.

Towns might be the clear #1 pick.....But what is his specialty? It's hard to say with such a short college resume. And in HS, he was a jump shooting guard in a big mans body. Towns is in transition right now, defining a low post skill.....But he's still in training.

You know what you get with guys like Ok4, Kaminsky, Stein as an example.....So it's easier to build around players that have a specialty skill at something. For example, Melo is a scoring maching.....So you know there is no need to add another scoring monster. Instead you can focus a little on the other parts of the game, like intangles, defense, rebounding, efficient shooters (not volume shooters - we have that in Melo...which is probably why Phil got rid of JR and Shump).

That's a great post. It's pretty much a perfect analysis of the different types of players. My view is that the impact WCS would have on both ends is greater than the offensive impact OK4 or Kaminsky, for example, would have. Most of WCS impact comes without him having to touch the basketball. That is a huge point in his favor. Even his offense is low usage which fits into our current situation very well.

Okafor is without question a franchise big. You know you can just dump the ball in and play off what the defense does. Thing is he's got very limited range defensively and isn't really a great rim protector, tho I do think can be better than he was at Duke. So you will need a rim protector next to him, which is logical. You would then have to surround him with great Perimeter defenders. So 3nD guys would seem to fit the bill. There's a way to do it with either player.

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I am maybe Stein's biggest fan on this board (other than nixluva) and of course you take Okafor over Stein. Okafor can be a franchise center. I don't think there's any way he slips past 2.

So, you don't think Stein can be a franchise player?

By the way, I too am Stein's biggest fan

There's a very real chance Okafor can give you 24ppg 10rpg in the NBA for the next 12 seasons. He's going to come in ready to go.

Stein can give you 12pts 12rebs 2blks 2stls and great defense. He can be a key piece on a championship team... but Okafor is a guy you can build around as a #1 option for a decade or more.

I agree that it seems like Okafor is the better option in a vacuum. But this team is the 28th ranked D and there's very little evidence that they can seriously improve on that with Okafor and Melo as the key players. Whereas If you take WCS you immediately improve the entire defense in addition to making the team faster as well since he as a 7'er can run the floor at the same speed as your smaller players. That speed is important on Offense and Defense, since you can get early offense but also get back on D.

IMO we can get 90% of what Okafor does from a player like Monroe. This would allow you to have a player like WCS who doesn't have a high usage rate but would still have a great impact without the ball. What does Okafor do when he doesn't have the ball in comparison? It would be hard to find a 7'er who could give you the amazing perimeter D and help D of WCS. He allows you're team to play small ball while retaining the size and rim protection, which would be a major advantage.

Okafor is the superior talent but not necessarily the superior impact on how the team can win games. We need a defender that can help our weaker defenders while still being able to get back and protect the rim. Okafor gives you a few more scoring options but you create even more issues on D. You can of course still make it work with Okafor if you can identify a great help defender and rim protector to glue the defense together. That may be what he Knicks end up deciding.

We just finished watching a Finals where only one player was a capable scorer and the other players were bystanders. We are also faced with the departure of our star player in four years or less. The premise when we took Chandler was that such a player was a final piece towards competing for a championship. We are not in that position yet. Okafor gives us that second offensive option, something better than ISO ball. We have no first round pick for next year. This would be our chance to get that foundation type player to grow with.

nixluva wrote:

Vmart wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Vmart wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I am maybe Stein's biggest fan on this board (other than nixluva) and of course you take Okafor over Stein. Okafor can be a franchise center. I don't think there's any way he slips past 2.

So, you don't think Stein can be a franchise player?

By the way, I too am Stein's biggest fan

There's a very real chance Okafor can give you 24ppg 10rpg in the NBA for the next 12 seasons. He's going to come in ready to go.

Stein can give you 12pts 12rebs 2blks 2stls and great defense. He can be a key piece on a championship team... but Okafor is a guy you can build around as a #1 option for a decade or more.

I agree that it seems like Okafor is the better option in a vacuum. But this team is the 28th ranked D and there's very little evidence that they can seriously improve on that with Okafor and Melo as the key players. Whereas If you take WCS you immediately improve the entire defense in addition to making the team faster as well since he as a 7'er can run the floor at the same speed as your smaller players. That speed is important on Offense and Defense, since you can get early offense but also get back on D.

IMO we can get 90% of what Okafor does from a player like Monroe. This would allow you to have a player like WCS who doesn't have a high usage rate but would still have a great impact without the ball. What does Okafor do when he doesn't have the ball in comparison? It would be hard to find a 7'er who could give you the amazing perimeter D and help D of WCS. He allows you're team to play small ball while retaining the size and rim protection, which would be a major advantage.

Okafor is the superior talent but not necessarily the superior impact on how the team can win games. We need a defender that can help our weaker defenders while still being able to get back and protect the rim. Okafor gives you a few more scoring options but you create even more issues on D. You can of course still make it work with Okafor if you can identify a great help defender and rim protector to glue the defense together. That may be what he Knicks end up deciding.

Defense is effort. Just look at how the Warriors played defense. There was no rim protector that is one of the most over hype terminology in the game.

The Warriors beat a wounded Cavs team. The Cavs weren't able to make GS pay for all that swarming. Shump and JR along with others missing wide open shots and I think it's a mistake to use the Warriors as an example that it's useless to have a PERIMETER and PAINT defender like WCS. He's not just a rim protector!!!

I mentioned nothing about the Cava series it was well known that the Warriors were one of the top defensive teams in the league and no Bogut isn't much of a rim protector.

My point still stands. WCS is more than just a rim protector. He's a great help defender on PnR and if he ends up on a smaller player he's able to hold his own defensively, which is a huge plus. You don't have to take him off the floor like Moz or Bogut when teams play small. That Notre Dame footage was a perfect example of a team that is playing small ball. WCS is able to defend the perimeter and the paint.

I hate to bring myself in this example, but having that high defensive IQ player is key to any team. And stats will never justify their value, other than wins vs loses. I usually played this role for most of my career, which is why I like Stein and see his value. These guys don't come around too often. Sure there are defensive bigs every year....and there will be some undrafted every year. But Stein is different from a typical defensive big. And unless you actually played that position, sometimes it's hard to see the value. It's easy to see when somebody puts up 20 and 10.....we all love those stats. But Stein (if used right) can neutralize a 20 and 10 guy....He can also help out the guards on PnR plays. But Nix, you will never convince anybody thats not pro Stein of his value. It's something that just has to play out once he's drafted in the NBA. This debate will go on for ever, until Stein retires.....You will only see his value if he's on the knicks and you watch him every game. Otherwise, he will look like a roll player to the average person. He's like Jefferies or Tyson Chandler on steroids. The one question about his is his fire and passion for the game....Remember he's a football player....and a good one. Does he have the pasion for basketball? Thats the only question.....If so, he will improve on his weaknesses. If not, he will be exactly the same. Nobody has the answer to that question, only Stein.

I'm still leaning towards Porzingis for some reason.....Why? I don't know.....Tired of debating about it. Just ready for the draft. Whoever we pick, will add value because we have so many holes to fill.....It's hard not to fill at least 1 hole. I can do that with my eyes closed.

blkexec wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Vmart wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Vmart wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I am maybe Stein's biggest fan on this board (other than nixluva) and of course you take Okafor over Stein. Okafor can be a franchise center. I don't think there's any way he slips past 2.

So, you don't think Stein can be a franchise player?

By the way, I too am Stein's biggest fan

There's a very real chance Okafor can give you 24ppg 10rpg in the NBA for the next 12 seasons. He's going to come in ready to go.

Stein can give you 12pts 12rebs 2blks 2stls and great defense. He can be a key piece on a championship team... but Okafor is a guy you can build around as a #1 option for a decade or more.

I agree that it seems like Okafor is the better option in a vacuum. But this team is the 28th ranked D and there's very little evidence that they can seriously improve on that with Okafor and Melo as the key players. Whereas If you take WCS you immediately improve the entire defense in addition to making the team faster as well since he as a 7'er can run the floor at the same speed as your smaller players. That speed is important on Offense and Defense, since you can get early offense but also get back on D.

IMO we can get 90% of what Okafor does from a player like Monroe. This would allow you to have a player like WCS who doesn't have a high usage rate but would still have a great impact without the ball. What does Okafor do when he doesn't have the ball in comparison? It would be hard to find a 7'er who could give you the amazing perimeter D and help D of WCS. He allows you're team to play small ball while retaining the size and rim protection, which would be a major advantage.

Okafor is the superior talent but not necessarily the superior impact on how the team can win games. We need a defender that can help our weaker defenders while still being able to get back and protect the rim. Okafor gives you a few more scoring options but you create even more issues on D. You can of course still make it work with Okafor if you can identify a great help defender and rim protector to glue the defense together. That may be what he Knicks end up deciding.

Defense is effort. Just look at how the Warriors played defense. There was no rim protector that is one of the most over hype terminology in the game.

The Warriors beat a wounded Cavs team. The Cavs weren't able to make GS pay for all that swarming. Shump and JR along with others missing wide open shots and I think it's a mistake to use the Warriors as an example that it's useless to have a PERIMETER and PAINT defender like WCS. He's not just a rim protector!!!

I mentioned nothing about the Cava series it was well known that the Warriors were one of the top defensive teams in the league and no Bogut isn't much of a rim protector.

My point still stands. WCS is more than just a rim protector. He's a great help defender on PnR and if he ends up on a smaller player he's able to hold his own defensively, which is a huge plus. You don't have to take him off the floor like Moz or Bogut when teams play small. That Notre Dame footage was a perfect example of a team that is playing small ball. WCS is able to defend the perimeter and the paint.

I hate to bring myself in this example, but having that high defensive IQ player is key to any team. And stats will never justify their value, other than wins vs loses. I usually played this role for most of my career, which is why I like Stein and see his value. These guys don't come around too often. Sure there are defensive bigs every year....and there will be some undrafted every year. But Stein is different from a typical defensive big. And unless you actually played that position, sometimes it's hard to see the value. It's easy to see when somebody puts up 20 and 10.....we all love those stats. But Stein (if used right) can neutralize a 20 and 10 guy....He can also help out the guards on PnR plays. But Nix, you will never convince anybody thats not pro Stein of his value. It's something that just has to play out once he's drafted in the NBA. This debate will go on for ever, until Stein retires.....You will only see his value if he's on the knicks and you watch him every game. Otherwise, he will look like a roll player to the average person. He's like Jefferies or Tyson Chandler on steroids. The one question about his is his fire and passion for the game....Remember he's a football player....and a good one. Does he have the pasion for basketball? Thats the only question.....If so, he will improve on his weaknesses. If not, he will be exactly the same. Nobody has the answer to that question, only Stein.

I'm still leaning towards Porzingis for some reason.....Why? I don't know.....Tired of debating about it. Just ready for the draft. Whoever we pick, will add value because we have so many holes to fill.....It's hard not to fill at least 1 hole. I can do that with my eyes closed.

LOL--you have to be kidding me. Where was WCS in the final four game. here s the problems with a lot of fans.

They are being selective in their thoughts.. Lets show the play that WCS runs up the court with Jerain GFrant or his dunk here or there.

How about name me 1 just 1 superstar player that gave his team 2 points and 5 rebounds in a final four game on 1 of 4 shooting. WCS practices the way he is now at Kentucky--then why in the games does his shooting motion change? Why doesnt he play better or more consistent? Why does he get bullied by much smaller players?

This guy played 33 minutes in a final 4 game and had 2 points. He was pushed around by Nigel Hayes he was outrebounded by Pat Connughton. At the end of the day the Kentucky Wildcat LOST because their upper classmen did not show up and played poorly despite being the biggest guy on the court.

BRIGGS wrote:

blkexec wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Vmart wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Vmart wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I am maybe Stein's biggest fan on this board (other than nixluva) and of course you take Okafor over Stein. Okafor can be a franchise center. I don't think there's any way he slips past 2.

So, you don't think Stein can be a franchise player?

By the way, I too am Stein's biggest fan

There's a very real chance Okafor can give you 24ppg 10rpg in the NBA for the next 12 seasons. He's going to come in ready to go.

Stein can give you 12pts 12rebs 2blks 2stls and great defense. He can be a key piece on a championship team... but Okafor is a guy you can build around as a #1 option for a decade or more.

I agree that it seems like Okafor is the better option in a vacuum. But this team is the 28th ranked D and there's very little evidence that they can seriously improve on that with Okafor and Melo as the key players. Whereas If you take WCS you immediately improve the entire defense in addition to making the team faster as well since he as a 7'er can run the floor at the same speed as your smaller players. That speed is important on Offense and Defense, since you can get early offense but also get back on D.

IMO we can get 90% of what Okafor does from a player like Monroe. This would allow you to have a player like WCS who doesn't have a high usage rate but would still have a great impact without the ball. What does Okafor do when he doesn't have the ball in comparison? It would be hard to find a 7'er who could give you the amazing perimeter D and help D of WCS. He allows you're team to play small ball while retaining the size and rim protection, which would be a major advantage.

Okafor is the superior talent but not necessarily the superior impact on how the team can win games. We need a defender that can help our weaker defenders while still being able to get back and protect the rim. Okafor gives you a few more scoring options but you create even more issues on D. You can of course still make it work with Okafor if you can identify a great help defender and rim protector to glue the defense together. That may be what he Knicks end up deciding.

Defense is effort. Just look at how the Warriors played defense. There was no rim protector that is one of the most over hype terminology in the game.

The Warriors beat a wounded Cavs team. The Cavs weren't able to make GS pay for all that swarming. Shump and JR along with others missing wide open shots and I think it's a mistake to use the Warriors as an example that it's useless to have a PERIMETER and PAINT defender like WCS. He's not just a rim protector!!!

I mentioned nothing about the Cava series it was well known that the Warriors were one of the top defensive teams in the league and no Bogut isn't much of a rim protector.

My point still stands. WCS is more than just a rim protector. He's a great help defender on PnR and if he ends up on a smaller player he's able to hold his own defensively, which is a huge plus. You don't have to take him off the floor like Moz or Bogut when teams play small. That Notre Dame footage was a perfect example of a team that is playing small ball. WCS is able to defend the perimeter and the paint.

I hate to bring myself in this example, but having that high defensive IQ player is key to any team. And stats will never justify their value, other than wins vs loses. I usually played this role for most of my career, which is why I like Stein and see his value. These guys don't come around too often. Sure there are defensive bigs every year....and there will be some undrafted every year. But Stein is different from a typical defensive big. And unless you actually played that position, sometimes it's hard to see the value. It's easy to see when somebody puts up 20 and 10.....we all love those stats. But Stein (if used right) can neutralize a 20 and 10 guy....He can also help out the guards on PnR plays. But Nix, you will never convince anybody thats not pro Stein of his value. It's something that just has to play out once he's drafted in the NBA. This debate will go on for ever, until Stein retires.....You will only see his value if he's on the knicks and you watch him every game. Otherwise, he will look like a roll player to the average person. He's like Jefferies or Tyson Chandler on steroids. The one question about his is his fire and passion for the game....Remember he's a football player....and a good one. Does he have the pasion for basketball? Thats the only question.....If so, he will improve on his weaknesses. If not, he will be exactly the same. Nobody has the answer to that question, only Stein.

I'm still leaning towards Porzingis for some reason.....Why? I don't know.....Tired of debating about it. Just ready for the draft. Whoever we pick, will add value because we have so many holes to fill.....It's hard not to fill at least 1 hole. I can do that with my eyes closed.

LOL--you have to be kidding me. Where was WCS in the final four game. here s the problems with a lot of fans.

They are being selective in their thoughts..

Come on, man- so are you, you keep holding onto that one game!

Is this a joke? You take Okafor without even a second thought.

WCS will probably be a great defender but has never, ever showed even an inkling of the offensive potential that Okafor has shown. In this case you put your chips on the guy with franchise changing potential on offense with the hopes he becomes simply an average defender. If Okafor can just become a decent, average defender he is more valuable than WCS by miles. WCS averaged 6 points per game his senior year and showed absolutely no development on offense the entire time he was at Kentucky. And don't give me this victim of the system nonsense. It's damning and other prospects similar to WCS in the past have no panned out in that regard with any regularity. I would not bet on WCS being the one defensive freak who sucks on offense to be one of the rare instances where he all of a sudden develops a good offensive game. The odds are against it.

Secondly, even an Okafor who scored 18-20 ppg and plays bad defense is more valuable than WCS playing high level D.

Please this team needs offense just as much as defense. At least defense can be coached and improved easier with motivation. Offense doesn't just fall out of the sky.

Sangfroid wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I am maybe Stein's biggest fan on this board (other than nixluva) and of course you take Okafor over Stein. Okafor can be a franchise center. I don't think there's any way he slips past 2.

So, you don't think Stein can be a franchise player?

By the way, I too am Stein's biggest fan

There's a very real chance Okafor can give you 24ppg 10rpg in the NBA for the next 12 seasons. He's going to come in ready to go.

Stein can give you 12pts 12rebs 2blks 2stls and great defense. He can be a key piece on a championship team... but Okafor is a guy you can build around as a #1 option for a decade or more.

I agree that it seems like Okafor is the better option in a vacuum. But this team is the 28th ranked D and there's very little evidence that they can seriously improve on that with Okafor and Melo as the key players. Whereas If you take WCS you immediately improve the entire defense in addition to making the team faster as well since he as a 7'er can run the floor at the same speed as your smaller players. That speed is important on Offense and Defense, since you can get early offense but also get back on D.

IMO we can get 90% of what Okafor does from a player like Monroe. This would allow you to have a player like WCS who doesn't have a high usage rate but would still have a great impact without the ball. What does Okafor do when he doesn't have the ball in comparison? It would be hard to find a 7'er who could give you the amazing perimeter D and help D of WCS. He allows you're team to play small ball while retaining the size and rim protection, which would be a major advantage.

Okafor is the superior talent but not necessarily the superior impact on how the team can win games. We need a defender that can help our weaker defenders while still being able to get back and protect the rim. Okafor gives you a few more scoring options but you create even more issues on D. You can of course still make it work with Okafor if you can identify a great help defender and rim protector to glue the defense together. That may be what he Knicks end up deciding.

We just finished watching a Finals where only one player was a capable scorer and the other players were bystanders. We are also faced with the departure of our star player in four years or less. The premise when we took Chandler was that such a player was a final piece towards competing for a championship. We are not in that position yet. Okafor gives us that second offensive option, something better than ISO ball. We have no first round pick for next year. This would be our chance to get that foundation type player to grow with.

The entire point of the cap space is to bring in scorers. This team is always going to be able to find scorers. With WCS you would finally be getting a player who could take the teams defense to the next level but who also has offensive upside. I think he's going to be able to continue to develop his offensive game. I believe WCS will be a better overall player than Tyson. Everyone just assumes that WCS is only going to be a Tyson or DeAndre Jordan type. All D no Offense. I believe WCS will eventually be more than that. So he is a Franchise big IMO.

BRIGGS wrote:

blkexec wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Vmart wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Vmart wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I am maybe Stein's biggest fan on this board (other than nixluva) and of course you take Okafor over Stein. Okafor can be a franchise center. I don't think there's any way he slips past 2.

So, you don't think Stein can be a franchise player?

By the way, I too am Stein's biggest fan

There's a very real chance Okafor can give you 24ppg 10rpg in the NBA for the next 12 seasons. He's going to come in ready to go.

Stein can give you 12pts 12rebs 2blks 2stls and great defense. He can be a key piece on a championship team... but Okafor is a guy you can build around as a #1 option for a decade or more.

I agree that it seems like Okafor is the better option in a vacuum. But this team is the 28th ranked D and there's very little evidence that they can seriously improve on that with Okafor and Melo as the key players. Whereas If you take WCS you immediately improve the entire defense in addition to making the team faster as well since he as a 7'er can run the floor at the same speed as your smaller players. That speed is important on Offense and Defense, since you can get early offense but also get back on D.

IMO we can get 90% of what Okafor does from a player like Monroe. This would allow you to have a player like WCS who doesn't have a high usage rate but would still have a great impact without the ball. What does Okafor do when he doesn't have the ball in comparison? It would be hard to find a 7'er who could give you the amazing perimeter D and help D of WCS. He allows you're team to play small ball while retaining the size and rim protection, which would be a major advantage.

Okafor is the superior talent but not necessarily the superior impact on how the team can win games. We need a defender that can help our weaker defenders while still being able to get back and protect the rim. Okafor gives you a few more scoring options but you create even more issues on D. You can of course still make it work with Okafor if you can identify a great help defender and rim protector to glue the defense together. That may be what he Knicks end up deciding.

Defense is effort. Just look at how the Warriors played defense. There was no rim protector that is one of the most over hype terminology in the game.

The Warriors beat a wounded Cavs team. The Cavs weren't able to make GS pay for all that swarming. Shump and JR along with others missing wide open shots and I think it's a mistake to use the Warriors as an example that it's useless to have a PERIMETER and PAINT defender like WCS. He's not just a rim protector!!!

I mentioned nothing about the Cava series it was well known that the Warriors were one of the top defensive teams in the league and no Bogut isn't much of a rim protector.

My point still stands. WCS is more than just a rim protector. He's a great help defender on PnR and if he ends up on a smaller player he's able to hold his own defensively, which is a huge plus. You don't have to take him off the floor like Moz or Bogut when teams play small. That Notre Dame footage was a perfect example of a team that is playing small ball. WCS is able to defend the perimeter and the paint.

I hate to bring myself in this example, but having that high defensive IQ player is key to any team. And stats will never justify their value, other than wins vs loses. I usually played this role for most of my career, which is why I like Stein and see his value. These guys don't come around too often. Sure there are defensive bigs every year....and there will be some undrafted every year. But Stein is different from a typical defensive big. And unless you actually played that position, sometimes it's hard to see the value. It's easy to see when somebody puts up 20 and 10.....we all love those stats. But Stein (if used right) can neutralize a 20 and 10 guy....He can also help out the guards on PnR plays. But Nix, you will never convince anybody thats not pro Stein of his value. It's something that just has to play out once he's drafted in the NBA. This debate will go on for ever, until Stein retires.....You will only see his value if he's on the knicks and you watch him every game. Otherwise, he will look like a roll player to the average person. He's like Jefferies or Tyson Chandler on steroids. The one question about his is his fire and passion for the game....Remember he's a football player....and a good one. Does he have the pasion for basketball? Thats the only question.....If so, he will improve on his weaknesses. If not, he will be exactly the same. Nobody has the answer to that question, only Stein.

I'm still leaning towards Porzingis for some reason.....Why? I don't know.....Tired of debating about it. Just ready for the draft. Whoever we pick, will add value because we have so many holes to fill.....It's hard not to fill at least 1 hole. I can do that with my eyes closed.

LOL--you have to be kidding me. Where was WCS in the final four game. here s the problems with a lot of fans.

They are being selective in their thoughts.. Lets show the play that WCS runs up the court with Jerain GFrant or his dunk here or there.

How about name me 1 just 1 superstar player that gave his team 2 points and 5 rebounds in a final four game on 1 of 4 shooting. WCS practices the way he is now at Kentucky--then why in the games does his shooting motion change? Why doesnt he play better or more consistent? Why does he get bullied by much smaller players?

This guy played 33 minutes in a final 4 game and had 2 points. He was pushed around by Nigel Hayes he was outrebounded by Pat Connughton. At the end of the day the Kentucky Wildcat LOST because their upper classmen did not show up and played poorly despite being the biggest guy on the court.

OR--We can also look at the players that dominated college and flopped in the NBA. It goes both ways. You can not predict the future, as much as you seem to try.

Bo Kimble at USC averaged 35.3 ppg as a freshmen......In the NBA he averaged 5.5 ppg

http://www.realclearsports.com/lists/col...

newyorker4ever wrote:I've also been a Stein supporter for the Knicks at 4 but this also depends on if we know Monroe is signing with us which i have a feeling that Phil or Melo or both already know if he's planning on signing with us or at least if they know the chance is very high of him signing with us. Would you want OK4 and Monroe playing next to each other down low?? I think with the right pieces around them we could make it work but we'd definitely be giving some defense away but with Stein and Monroe down low it works much better.

You take Okafor and save the 60mm--thats a no brainer.

H1AND1 wrote:Is this a joke? You take Okafor without even a second thought.

WCS will probably be a great defender but has never, ever showed even an inkling of the offensive potential that Okafor has shown. In this case you put your chips on the guy with franchise changing potential on offense with the hopes he becomes simply an average defender. If Okafor can just become a decent, average defender he is more valuable than WCS by miles. WCS averaged 6 points per game his senior year and showed absolutely no development on offense the entire time he was at Kentucky. And don't give me this victim of the system nonsense. It's damning and other prospects similar to WCS in the past have no panned out in that regard with any regularity. I would not bet on WCS being the one defensive freak who sucks on offense to be one of the rare instances where he all of a sudden develops a good offensive game. The odds are against it.

Secondly, even an Okafor who scored 18-20 ppg and plays bad defense is more valuable than WCS playing high level D.

I think the counter argument (which I don't buy) is, just to play devils advocate:

the game has changed, post up big men are obsolete (the only think OK4 does well). Now teams are all about 3pt shooting, and all you need from C is rim protection and shooting, which OK4 doesn't provide. You draft him, you're stuck with a system that no longer works. Your team will lack spacing, it will be slow. Also what players do you sign to complement Melo and OK4? You need a front court player that can defend, block shots, rebound and shoot (to make up for their shortcomings)- i.e, WCS!- are any available? Nope (Gasol ain't leaving the Griz). So that means the Knicks would suck at defense again (and forevermore, with those two as your main pieces). At least WCS gives you a lot of versatility in filling out the roster, and is a solid foundation fro building a good defensive team. Move Melo to PF, sign Carroll, Green and Beverley. keep Melo at SF and sign Milsap and Carroll (or green).

Like I said, I don't buy it, but thats how the argument would go.

BRIGGS wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:I've also been a Stein supporter for the Knicks at 4 but this also depends on if we know Monroe is signing with us which i have a feeling that Phil or Melo or both already know if he's planning on signing with us or at least if they know the chance is very high of him signing with us. Would you want OK4 and Monroe playing next to each other down low?? I think with the right pieces around them we could make it work but we'd definitely be giving some defense away but with Stein and Monroe down low it works much better.

You take Okafor and save the 60mm--thats a no brainer.

That was what I was thinking. I can't even believe anyone would take WCS over Okafor ridiculous.

BRIGGS wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:I've also been a Stein supporter for the Knicks at 4 but this also depends on if we know Monroe is signing with us which i have a feeling that Phil or Melo or both already know if he's planning on signing with us or at least if they know the chance is very high of him signing with us. Would you want OK4 and Monroe playing next to each other down low?? I think with the right pieces around them we could make it work but we'd definitely be giving some defense away but with Stein and Monroe down low it works much better.

You take Okafor and save the 60mm--thats a no brainer.

Perhaps that is a good way of looking at it or you could use the cap space for Monroe and draft your defensive anchor. In terms of actually building a team that can win, I think Monroe and WCS is a great start. You've solidified your Front Court with talented young players who still have upside. You've got 1st rate defense, rebounding, post scoring and athletic ability with Monroe and WCS. Monroe is used to having an athletic partner he can make Dump Off and Alleyoop passes to.

Why are people acting like we'll have a choice? There is no chance Okafor is on the board at 4. Zero.

I like Stein a lot but I take Okafor. I think Okafor has a much higher floor and a higher ceiling.

Thats a crazy thought process.

Lets be fair and extrapolate Oka for and Monroe's numbers as a freshmen in college their physical size differentials and lets make a reasonable assessment where we think Okafor might stand here. Lets not use the mentality that because Monroe put up 15-10 in the NBA that Ok4 cant because each year new players come in and do it right? There is no cut off point for new players coming in--I mean that's logical no?

Monroe--psychically Greg Monroe was around 6-11 250 with a smell vertical(29) and a wingspan of 7-2

year 1 BE 12.7 points 6.5 rebounds 1.5 blocks 1.8 steals 2.5 assists 57%

Okafor --physically Okafor is 6-11 270 with a 7-5+ wingspan

Year 1 ACC 17.3 points 8.6 rebounds 1.4 blocks 1 steal 1.3 assists 67% FG

So why would want to pay Greg Monroe 60mm if we could draft Ok4 on a cost controlled contract. We could spend 30mm on position of need with vets or acquiring more picks.

Sangfroid wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I am maybe Stein's biggest fan on this board (other than nixluva) and of course you take Okafor over Stein. Okafor can be a franchise center. I don't think there's any way he slips past 2.

So, you don't think Stein can be a franchise player?

By the way, I too am Stein's biggest fan

There's a very real chance Okafor can give you 24ppg 10rpg in the NBA for the next 12 seasons. He's going to come in ready to go.

Stein can give you 12pts 12rebs 2blks 2stls and great defense. He can be a key piece on a championship team... but Okafor is a guy you can build around as a #1 option for a decade or more.

I agree that it seems like Okafor is the better option in a vacuum. But this team is the 28th ranked D and there's very little evidence that they can seriously improve on that with Okafor and Melo as the key players. Whereas If you take WCS you immediately improve the entire defense in addition to making the team faster as well since he as a 7'er can run the floor at the same speed as your smaller players. That speed is important on Offense and Defense, since you can get early offense but also get back on D.

IMO we can get 90% of what Okafor does from a player like Monroe. This would allow you to have a player like WCS who doesn't have a high usage rate but would still have a great impact without the ball. What does Okafor do when he doesn't have the ball in comparison? It would be hard to find a 7'er who could give you the amazing perimeter D and help D of WCS. He allows you're team to play small ball while retaining the size and rim protection, which would be a major advantage.

Okafor is the superior talent but not necessarily the superior impact on how the team can win games. We need a defender that can help our weaker defenders while still being able to get back and protect the rim. Okafor gives you a few more scoring options but you create even more issues on D. You can of course still make it work with Okafor if you can identify a great help defender and rim protector to glue the defense together. That may be what he Knicks end up deciding.

We just finished watching a Finals where only one player was a capable scorer and the other players were bystanders. We are also faced with the departure of our star player in four years or less. The premise when we took Chandler was that such a player was a final piece towards competing for a championship. We are not in that position yet. Okafor gives us that second offensive option, something better than ISO ball. We have no first round pick for next year. This would be our chance to get that foundation type player to grow with.

^^ This is the key point in response to the OP, and the obvious choice of OK4 > WCS. It's hard to imagine this is even in question. If OK4 drops, we pick him. If Russell drops, we pick him. If neither drop, we are where we started out, and will likely take either Mudiay or Zinger.

If both are available and the Knicks like Stein - dang, hope we trade down.

Larry Sanders's one good season might be a way to gauge Stein's upside. Maybe a 10-10-3bpg season in 29mpg. That's a good player, borderline all-star caliber center. Is it anything special? Will he earn his keep on the offensive end? Will opponents change the way they play because of him?

I also look at Robin Lopez's career as another benchmark. Without looking, something like 8-8-1.5bpg in 25mpg. We can get a Robin Lopez caliber player as a free agent instead.

I like Okafor as a guy who could be Al Jefferson, Brook Lopez, the good Eddy Curry, or perhaps more on offense - maybe even Pau Gasol. He's a good passer and sees the defense. Regardless of what you think of those guys, they demand double or triple teams when they get the ball. Okafor will make his teammates into better shooters.

One thing of note. WCS wasn't a huge factor in his first 2 seasons at Kentucky. He made strides and improved. At 2 years younger, Okafor also has room to grow on D. He won't be growing in high school

Vmart wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:I've also been a Stein supporter for the Knicks at 4 but this also depends on if we know Monroe is signing with us which i have a feeling that Phil or Melo or both already know if he's planning on signing with us or at least if they know the chance is very high of him signing with us. Would you want OK4 and Monroe playing next to each other down low?? I think with the right pieces around them we could make it work but we'd definitely be giving some defense away but with Stein and Monroe down low it works much better.

You take Okafor and save the 60mm--thats a no brainer.

That was what I was thinking. I can't even believe anyone would take WCS over Okafor ridiculous.

Hey you see I am normal:)

I am of a different opinion on Stein than some here--and people are taking offense but I think that after 3 years and really watching him Im being fair in this assessment.

I think Willie Stein has positional awkwardness a weak base and I believe he could be somewhat weak mentally. Also there is a red flag with me that he practices well/ shoots well and then the bright light come on he is very inconsistent. There can be some reasonable justification that he was a football player who has transitioned(I dont like that word)to basketball and he needed more time to hone skills. Anyone can have a bad game--but WCS has had a LOT of mediocre games in his career. Hey the big man position in college is hard--space is limited that could play into it as well. But I have a sour taste with thus guy --I dont like that he doesnt show up at times and that his mentality in practice seems to have more focus than the actual game. Seems like a real good dude--nothing against him.