Knicks · What's More Valuable At the Moment: Jose Calderon or $7 million in cap space? (page 1)

Seems like the market is drying up and we still haven't found a starter at PG. As much as I'm encouraged by the prospects of Jerian Grant, I'd hate the idea of him having so much of that responsibility so soon.

With the Rockets potentially losing Jason Terry to Dallas and all of their free agent targets off the board, I could easily see them absorbing Calderon's contract into their platoon system. The same goes for the Mavericks who can dangle Raymond Felton's expirer as bait. But would that $7 million or so be useful at this stage of free agency? Who could we target?

For the record, I think that George Hill would be a terrific addition to our system but I think that Indiana's asking price might be higher than a contract dump for that $7 million. Any idea how we could get him?

Grant will be the starting PG as you said, Calderon will be able to split minutes with him in the beginning if the Knicks are concerned about putting so much responsibility on a rookie. It doesn't make sense to move Calderon right now, his value is low and we're not as thirsty at PG as we once were.

Its Jose... he's one year removed from starting PG on a 50 win Mavs team. He's a good player who brings plenty to the table. He was hurt last year and had nothing to show. Get him healthy and playing good ball again. Jose gets hated on here alot, especially by Briggs, mostly unfairly. He's not a star but he's a good player and unless his legs are shot he will help plenty.

Dagger wrote:Grant will be the starting PG as you said, Calderon will be able to split minutes with him in the beginning if the Knicks are concerned about putting so much responsibility on a rookie. It doesn't make sense to move Calderon right now, his value is low and we're not as thirsty at PG as we once were.

Yeah we are! What has Grant proven?

I suppose that we could make things interesting if we manage to re-sign Alexey Shved but even so, we'll be the only team AGAIN to not have a top 30 PG (Philly still had MCW for most of last season). If we really want to win now, we desperately need some good veteran play at that position.

fishmike wrote:

Its Jose... he's one year removed from starting PG on a 50 win Mavs team. He's a good player who brings plenty to the table. He was hurt last year and had nothing to show. Get him healthy and playing good ball again. Jose gets hated on here alot, especially by Briggs, mostly unfairly. He's not a star but he's a good player and unless his legs are shot he will help plenty.

Jose is 35 years old. Bad seasons for players that advanced in age isn't the exception, it's the norm. These are the last days of Jose Calderon. I still think he can contribute on a team whose success isn't contingent on him and/or his position like the Rockets but we are certainly not the Rockets even though we are improved.

Hmmm...depends on the idea point gaurd...would you rather hav jeremy lin instead?

^^^^^Jose is 33. He turns 34 just before the start of the season. I think he has value. Not sure who the Knicks would be targeting with the 4 mil in cap space the Knicks get if they stretch him. I think the room exception is totally separate so you are looking at guys that would take 4 mil. I think the best thing is to keep Jose. I would love an update on how he is doing though with his Achilles issue.

NardDogNation wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Its Jose... he's one year removed from starting PG on a 50 win Mavs team. He's a good player who brings plenty to the table. He was hurt last year and had nothing to show. Get him healthy and playing good ball again. Jose gets hated on here alot, especially by Briggs, mostly unfairly. He's not a star but he's a good player and unless his legs are shot he will help plenty.

Jose is 35 years old. Bad seasons for players that advanced in age isn't the exception, it's the norm. These are the last days of Jose Calderon. I still think he can contribute on a team whose success isn't contingent on him and/or his position like the Rockets but we are certainly not the Rockets even though we are improved.

I often agree with you fish, but Jose will probably spend a good portion of the season looking sharp in a suit and tie. Until he proves otherwise, we have to assume he will be hurt. I mean last year those injuries were what, flukes or the result of old age?

If we found someone willing to take Jose off our hands, we should do it.

I think Jose's contract will pick up value if he shows he is still healthy enough to be a rotation PG even at 33.

A team might trade a player who is expiring who they don't want to pay an increased salary too or lose for nothing for a guaranteed back up PG on a 7 mil/2 year contract.

NardDogNation wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Its Jose... he's one year removed from starting PG on a 50 win Mavs team. He's a good player who brings plenty to the table. He was hurt last year and had nothing to show. Get him healthy and playing good ball again. Jose gets hated on here alot, especially by Briggs, mostly unfairly. He's not a star but he's a good player and unless his legs are shot he will help plenty.

Jose is 35 years old. Bad seasons for players that advanced in age isn't the exception, it's the norm. These are the last days of Jose Calderon. I still think he can contribute on a team whose success isn't contingent on him and/or his position like the Rockets but we are certainly not the Rockets even though we are improved.

Im sorry is this 2017 already? Jose is 33 and before getting hurt last year has been very durable. Zero reason to expect anything else but a bounce back year from Jose. He will be 34 when the season starts.

CrushAlot wrote:^^^^^Jose is 33. He turns 34 just before the start of the season. I think he has value. Not sure who the Knicks would be targeting with the 4 mil in cap space the Knicks get if they stretch him. I think the room exception is totally separate so you are looking at guys that would take 4 mil. I think the best thing is to keep Jose. I would love an update on how he is doing though with his Achilles issue.

I implied trading him as a contract dump, not stretching him. Stretching his contract was always a dumb idea.

CrushAlot wrote:^^^^^Jose is 33. He turns 34 just before the start of the season. I think he has value. Not sure who the Knicks would be targeting with the 4 mil in cap space the Knicks get if they stretch him. I think the room exception is totally separate so you are looking at guys that would take 4 mil. I think the best thing is to keep Jose. I would love an update on how he is doing though with his Achilles issue.

I implied trading him as a contract dump, not stretching him. Stretching his contract was always a dumb idea.

I think Calderon's value is less than what he costs us, due to his lack of defense. We have a clear identity moving forward and that is defense. (Outside of the Williams signing.)
I would look at all possibilities to get rid of Calderon (nothing personal, work ethic related, I just don't think he is a great fit for what we are doing now.)

That said, I think we might be able to get something for him going forward as he is probably going to get a lot of good looks with this new team and put up decent stats - A playoff team
or even a team grooming a young PG would probably be interested in him.

EMS

CrushAlot wrote:^^^^^Jose is 33. He turns 34 just before the start of the season. I think he has value. Not sure who the Knicks would be targeting with the 4 mil in cap space the Knicks get if they stretch him. I think the room exception is totally separate so you are looking at guys that would take 4 mil. I think the best thing is to keep Jose. I would love an update on how he is doing though with his Achilles issue.

I might prefer Alexey Shved or Jeremy Lin at $4m.

NardDogNation wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:^^^^^Jose is 33. He turns 34 just before the start of the season. I think he has value. Not sure who the Knicks would be targeting with the 4 mil in cap space the Knicks get if they stretch him. I think the room exception is totally separate so you are looking at guys that would take 4 mil. I think the best thing is to keep Jose. I would love an update on how he is doing though with his Achilles issue.

I implied trading him as a contract dump, not stretching him. Stretching his contract was always a dumb idea.

He probably is more valuable to the Knicks. Maybe the Mavs would want him back. If he is healthy I think he should be kept in NY. If he isn't healthy no one would trade for him. Sorry I missed the 7 mil in cap space in your initial post.

franco12 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Its Jose... he's one year removed from starting PG on a 50 win Mavs team. He's a good player who brings plenty to the table. He was hurt last year and had nothing to show. Get him healthy and playing good ball again. Jose gets hated on here alot, especially by Briggs, mostly unfairly. He's not a star but he's a good player and unless his legs are shot he will help plenty.

Jose is 35 years old. Bad seasons for players that advanced in age isn't the exception, it's the norm. These are the last days of Jose Calderon. I still think he can contribute on a team whose success isn't contingent on him and/or his position like the Rockets but we are certainly not the Rockets even though we are improved.

I often agree with you fish, but Jose will probably spend a good portion of the season looking sharp in a suit and tie. Until he proves otherwise, we have to assume he will be hurt. I mean last year those injuries were what, flukes or the result of old age?

If we found someone willing to take Jose off our hands, we should do it.

Im not on a pro-Jose crusade here... He's one year older than Tyson. Remember when Tyson was hurt all the the time and we sold low? Then we had a years worth of threads from guys talking about how great Tyson was and how we were stupid to trade him.

For three years before last year Jose has played 75+ games a year. He's not a run and jump guy, he's a quickness guy. If Jose's legs are shot fine, but only looking at his last year was the same mistake we made with Tyson. Guys get hurt. Guys get healthy. Nothing about Jose tells me his career is shot.

fishmike wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Its Jose... he's one year removed from starting PG on a 50 win Mavs team. He's a good player who brings plenty to the table. He was hurt last year and had nothing to show. Get him healthy and playing good ball again. Jose gets hated on here alot, especially by Briggs, mostly unfairly. He's not a star but he's a good player and unless his legs are shot he will help plenty.

Jose is 35 years old. Bad seasons for players that advanced in age isn't the exception, it's the norm. These are the last days of Jose Calderon. I still think he can contribute on a team whose success isn't contingent on him and/or his position like the Rockets but we are certainly not the Rockets even though we are improved.

Im sorry is this 2017 already? Jose is 33 and before getting hurt last year has been very durable. Zero reason to expect anything else but a bounce back year from Jose. He will be 34 when the season starts.

So your only defense for him is, in effect, that he's one year younger than I stated?

And Jose has been durable according to whom? Of his 10 seasons in the NBA, he has only played more than 68 games 4 times. And most of that came with him as a part-time PG, splitting his minutes with pretty good players like TJ Ford (in his prime), Jarrett Jack, Brandon Jennings, Mike James, Devin Harris and the like. I could only imagine how banged up he would've been if he had the primary responsibilities of running the team and consistently playing starters minutes.

CrushAlot wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:^^^^^Jose is 33. He turns 34 just before the start of the season. I think he has value. Not sure who the Knicks would be targeting with the 4 mil in cap space the Knicks get if they stretch him. I think the room exception is totally separate so you are looking at guys that would take 4 mil. I think the best thing is to keep Jose. I would love an update on how he is doing though with his Achilles issue.

I implied trading him as a contract dump, not stretching him. Stretching his contract was always a dumb idea.

He probably is more valuable to the Knicks. Maybe the Mavs would want him back. If he is healthy I think he should be kept in NY. If he isn't healthy no one would trade for him. Sorry I missed the 7 mil in cap space in your initial post.

I'm not sure if I explicitly stated that we should do it as a contract dump in my first post, so no worries. But I think it would be the ideal manuever moving forward. I don't see him offering much utility for us without a core that could be considered bona-fided contenders. That's the reason why he was able to be a valued player with the Mavs and it is also the reason why he was so lost with us. The only thing I like about him is that he does seem to be a cerebral guy and a good locker room presence, which should help Grant acclimate himself to a NBA game. But even so, it still leaves 7s without something that is far more valuable....a starting PG.

NardDogNation wrote:With the Rockets potentially losing Jason Terry to Dallas and all of their free agent targets off the board, I could easily see them absorbing Calderon's contract into their platoon system. The same goes for the Mavericks who can dangle Raymond Felton's expirer as bait. But would that $7 million or so be useful at this stage of free agency? Who could we target?

No offense, but if you've determined that the 7 million is more valuable, then why wouldn't the Mavericks and Rockets come to that same conclusion?

The same reason why you want to get rid of a player is the same reason why other teams don't want him.

You also have to factor in Calderon is NOT an expiring deal, so losing that cap flexibility for the Rockets and Mavericks has to be seen in the context over multiple seasons. A practical trade for Calderon has to make sense for the non Knick teams ACROSS MULTIPLE SEASONS.

If you were GM of the Knicks and the rosters and situations of both teams were flip-flopped, and you were offered Jose Calderon, would you take him in trade? Then why should they?

Let's see what kind of shape he is in.

If he's in good shape and seems to be playing well, we will benefit from having him on the floor, or maybe he becomes a more attractive trade chip.

TripleThreat wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:With the Rockets potentially losing Jason Terry to Dallas and all of their free agent targets off the board, I could easily see them absorbing Calderon's contract into their platoon system. The same goes for the Mavericks who can dangle Raymond Felton's expirer as bait. But would that $7 million or so be useful at this stage of free agency? Who could we target?

No offense, but if you've determined that the 7 million is more valuable, then why wouldn't the Mavericks and Rockets come to that same conclusion?

The same reason why you want to get rid of a player is the same reason why other teams don't want him.

You also have to factor in Calderon is NOT an expiring deal, so losing that cap flexibility for the Rockets and Mavericks has to be seen in the context over multiple seasons. A practical trade for Calderon has to make sense for the non Knick teams ACROSS MULTIPLE SEASONS.

If you were GM of the Knicks and the rosters and situations of both teams were flip-flopped, and you were offered Jose Calderon, would you take him in trade? Then why should they?

No offense at all taken. I feel it all comes down to circumstance in the NBA. And from a historical perspective, contenders or teams that feel they can contend will forgive a bad contract if the returning player is an improvement over talent already on the team and/or is better than the available market. Even the Spurs, the best run organization in the league, took on a past-his-prime, maxed Richard Jefferson in a contract dump from Milwaukee. When it was clear he wasn't a fit, they then exchanged him for another horrible long-term contract in a past-his-prime Stephen Jackson.

Right now, all the Rockets really have is one of their cap exceptions to scour the free agent market for a PG. And while the current crop of free agent PG's might offer the opportunity to be a better value contract, I'm not so sure that any of them have anything over Jose Calderon the player when healthy (on a contender). There would be considerable risk involved on the Rockets part but what would they really be surrendering other than cap space during the 2016-2017 season that would be inconsequential with the impending cap spike? If I were them, I'd roll the dice because their is value in Jose as a contender as there was for Stephen Jackson and Richard Jefferson with the Spurs. From our perspective though, as a 6th seed playoff team in a weak Conference, I think he is largely useless.