Knicks · So we committed almost 29 Million and we got what? (page 1)
StarksEwing1 wrote:We werent getting any top guys. The derrick williams signing i didnt like. I liked the oquinn deal. The affalo deal was very reasonable. I like lopez but we did overpay. Plus we got two good prospects. Lets give them a chance
Think we had a shot at Monroe but didn't close deal. Agree about big names not around but ahould have gone to a plan B that went with young players as well as some vets that were decent in Triangle last year. Instead of knee jerk reaction fueled by pressure to present so called good alternatives. Your right about the two young prospects. Hopefully they have the support to develop.
1)He didn't get caught up on players that didn't want to be here
2)he didn't go for young in experience players who were mostly unproven especially with no 2016 draft pick
3) I like the fact that 3 of his pick ups, are defensive minded
KP is a upgrade over Jason and AB, and J grant is a up grade over Larkin and Prigs. We could be a very solid defensive team if anything.
crzymdups wrote:
A team who's numbers could have been duplicated by players 1/5 the price.
knicks1248 wrote:Actually I'm going to give phil a little credit1)He didn't get caught up on players that didn't want to be here
2)he didn't go for young in experience players who were mostly unproven especially with no 2016 draft pick
3) I like the fact that 3 of his pick ups, are defensive mindedKP is a upgrade over Jason and AB, and J grant is a up grade over Larkin and Prigs. We could be a very solid defensive team if anything.
Who wanted to be here is hard to say. When your overpaid it tends to change your desire to be here.
So he goes with players who have already proved their low production?
Defensive minded players could be had for vets min.
Never said anything about KP. Love his potential.
To me this is all about Melo and the two rookies. These three need to kick ass over the next 1-2-3-4 years. If they happens the Knicks will be great. Simple as that. Add in the cap room they will have next year and beyond... This is their shot.
crzymdups wrote:A team?
This. Similar to the no drama thread the Knicks got high character guys. Love that the first thing O'Quinn said when asked about Affalo was defense. Also both Afflalo and O'Quinn expressed a desire to be Knicks. I think Lopez will be a great Knick and a fan favorite. I hope Williams works out. He kept referencing his last 30 games as a King when he was interviewed. Hopefully he continues on his upswing. Didn't think this was a thread for ifs and buts.
RedmenBaller wrote:Lopez, O'Quinn, Williams and Aflalo. Everyone is talking about how they are the "right type" of players and will make such a difference. I sure hope so. I would have rather gone with younger less expensive "Right Types" but Stats don't lie. We were all happy to see Bargnani and his 15pt career average go for vets minimum but took on a bigger bust in Williams at 4M. No offer for guys like Smith, Aldmundson, Shved or Aldrich but gave O quinn and his 5 ppg career average 4M. And Lopez gets 14 million average per year but Phil cant offer Monroe, a young big with consistent improvement and higher rated 16.5 Million. I am sure the whole NBA thought Lopez was just as good as Monroe prior to free agency. Aflalo, may be the only one who's number justify signing at 8M, as long as he returns to previous production. Just cant say that we got our moneys worth. Prefer rooting for young ball players that can be sculpted to "Right Types". Dunno, maybe I am just seeing all these young guys trying to make it in summer league that seem to have lots of talent and could be just as good if given the chance.
we are going to win more than 17 games and that's a start. with these 4 alone the knicks will get another 10 wins.
if melo is in shape, does not sulk, plays defense, buys in and does not cause a distraction with infantile disgruntlement then the knicks can get to 32-35 wins.
don't care what happens with calderon but it'd be great to give him the heave-ho after the all-star break.
if all goes well with both kris and grant and a little chemistry is built then 40 wins is a possibility.
most likely the knicks will get 30-40 wins on one of two scenarios:
1) melo is traded and the knicks win closer to 30 games but are in great shape for the summer of 2016
2) melo remains and the knicks win closer to 40 games and get better as a team even as melo continues to break down while building his brand
either way there is nowhere to go but up.
doomed wrote:The cap is going to explode and go up next season. If you believe that the players signed will be solid role players here then the deals won't look very bad at all. Plus affalo and Williams are only signed for 1-2 years anyway. These aren't really cap crushing deals in the least.To me this is all about Melo and the two rookies. These three need to kick ass over the next 1-2-3-4 years. If they happens the Knicks will be great. Simple as that. Add in the cap room they will have next year and beyond... This is their shot.
Agree about Melo and rooks. Excited to see them for next few years.
Cap figures does not excuse overpaying players with numbers that don't match salary. I look at Riley convincing guys like Green to play for vets minimum and hoped Phil would have been able to do the same.
dk7th wrote:RedmenBaller wrote:Lopez, O'Quinn, Williams and Aflalo. Everyone is talking about how they are the "right type" of players and will make such a difference. I sure hope so. I would have rather gone with younger less expensive "Right Types" but Stats don't lie. We were all happy to see Bargnani and his 15pt career average go for vets minimum but took on a bigger bust in Williams at 4M. No offer for guys like Smith, Aldmundson, Shved or Aldrich but gave O quinn and his 5 ppg career average 4M. And Lopez gets 14 million average per year but Phil cant offer Monroe, a young big with consistent improvement and higher rated 16.5 Million. I am sure the whole NBA thought Lopez was just as good as Monroe prior to free agency. Aflalo, may be the only one who's number justify signing at 8M, as long as he returns to previous production. Just cant say that we got our moneys worth. Prefer rooting for young ball players that can be sculpted to "Right Types". Dunno, maybe I am just seeing all these young guys trying to make it in summer league that seem to have lots of talent and could be just as good if given the chance.we are going to win more than 17 games and that's a start. with these 4 alone the knicks will get another 10 wins.
if melo is in shape, does not sulk, plays defense, buys in and does not cause a distraction with infantile disgruntlement then the knicks can get to 32-35 wins.
don't care what happens with calderon but it'd be great to give him the heave-ho after the all-star break.
if all goes well with both kris and grant and a little chemistry is built then 40 wins is a possibility.
most likely the knicks will get 30-40 wins on one of two scenarios:
1) melo is traded and the knicks win closer to 30 games but are in great shape for the summer of 2016
2) melo remains and the knicks win closer to 40 games and get better as a team even as melo continues to break down while building his brandeither way there is nowhere to go but up.
Agree that there is nowhere to go but up. Think we can definitely win close to 30 games. However, do you think we could have won close to 30 games with new draft picks, healthy Melo and some of the guys from last year?
RedmenBaller wrote:dk7th wrote:RedmenBaller wrote:Lopez, O'Quinn, Williams and Aflalo. Everyone is talking about how they are the "right type" of players and will make such a difference. I sure hope so. I would have rather gone with younger less expensive "Right Types" but Stats don't lie. We were all happy to see Bargnani and his 15pt career average go for vets minimum but took on a bigger bust in Williams at 4M. No offer for guys like Smith, Aldmundson, Shved or Aldrich but gave O quinn and his 5 ppg career average 4M. And Lopez gets 14 million average per year but Phil cant offer Monroe, a young big with consistent improvement and higher rated 16.5 Million. I am sure the whole NBA thought Lopez was just as good as Monroe prior to free agency. Aflalo, may be the only one who's number justify signing at 8M, as long as he returns to previous production. Just cant say that we got our moneys worth. Prefer rooting for young ball players that can be sculpted to "Right Types". Dunno, maybe I am just seeing all these young guys trying to make it in summer league that seem to have lots of talent and could be just as good if given the chance.we are going to win more than 17 games and that's a start. with these 4 alone the knicks will get another 10 wins.
if melo is in shape, does not sulk, plays defense, buys in and does not cause a distraction with infantile disgruntlement then the knicks can get to 32-35 wins.
don't care what happens with calderon but it'd be great to give him the heave-ho after the all-star break.
if all goes well with both kris and grant and a little chemistry is built then 40 wins is a possibility.
most likely the knicks will get 30-40 wins on one of two scenarios:
1) melo is traded and the knicks win closer to 30 games but are in great shape for the summer of 2016
2) melo remains and the knicks win closer to 40 games and get better as a team even as melo continues to break down while building his brandeither way there is nowhere to go but up.
Agree that there is nowhere to go but up. Think we can definitely win close to 30 games. However, do you think we could have won close to 30 games with new draft picks, healthy Melo and some of the guys from last year?
when the phrase "culture change" was put out there it meant last year was going to be painful. but the fascinating way it unfolded, what with the sacrifices that jackson made to accommodate dolan, melo, and still pursue his own vision-- i honestly did not expect it to be so bad, but there you go.
i liked chandler but he was not part of a triangle plan and his friction with melo made it impossible for jackson to do otherwise, even as it was painful to have to take on calderon as a result. because calderon is linked to chandler and felton i see him merely as sunk cost and don't care what happens with him.
getting rid of jr smith weakened melo even as it gave him one less clown to consort with. and with shumpert, well, that was never going to work with carmelo anyway. and by the way, neither of them were going to participate in the triangle anyway, and neither struck me as high-character players.
what we have now is melo isolating himself, predictably, even as jackson continues to bring in mostly high-character players.
RedmenBaller wrote:Lopez, O'Quinn, Williams and Aflalo. Everyone is talking about how they are the "right type" of players and will make such a difference. I sure hope so. I would have rather gone with younger less expensive "Right Types" but Stats don't lie. We were all happy to see Bargnani and his 15pt career average go for vets minimum but took on a bigger bust in Williams at 4M. No offer for guys like Smith, Aldmundson, Shved or Aldrich but gave O quinn and his 5 ppg career average 4M. And Lopez gets 14 million average per year but Phil cant offer Monroe, a young big with consistent improvement and higher rated 16.5 Million. I am sure the whole NBA thought Lopez was just as good as Monroe prior to free agency. Aflalo, may be the only one who's number justify signing at 8M, as long as he returns to previous production. Just cant say that we got our moneys worth. Prefer rooting for young ball players that can be sculpted to "Right Types". Dunno, maybe I am just seeing all these young guys trying to make it in summer league that seem to have lots of talent and could be just as good if given the chance.
I don't look at our acquisitions from an individual standpoint nor how much we paid for a given player. It's about how they all fit together and work with the team as a whole and in this system. After getting KP and Jerian in the draft, Phil and his staff mapped out groups of players that fit and not just by grabbing guys at random. This group was actually one of their scenarios going into FA. DWill was the one they admitted was a wild card to the needs they felt they addressed with KP, Jerian, RoLo, Afflalo and O'Quinn.
Lead Guard Scoring Guard Small Forward Power Forward Center
Jerian Grant Arron Afflalo Kristaps Porzingis Carmelo Anthony Robin Lopez
Jose Calderon Cleanthony Early Derrick Williams Kyle O’Quinn
Langston Galloway Ricky Ledo Lance Thomas Lou Amundson
Phil has a very deep and holistic approach to how his teams work together and I think that he's trying to put together this team with players who naturally do the kind of SELFLESS things that he knows lead to wins. It may not look sexy when you look at the names but it's not about that in the end. It's gonna be about how they all work together as a unit. It reminds me of what Larry Brown decided to do with the roster they built around Allen Iverson. Their Finals Team was really about fit more than names. Even tho they didn't win it all still it was a good example of how you can build a team that works better than you'd think it would by looking at the individuals on the roster. The Detroit Pistons Finals teams with Billups etc. and he Mavs Title team was similar.
Rk Player Age G MP FGA FG% 3PA 3P% 2PA 2P% eFG% FT TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS ▾
1 Allen Iverson 25 71 42.0 25.5 .420 4.3 .320 21.2 .441 .447 3.1 3.8 4.6 2.5 0.3 3.3 2.1 31.1
2 Theo Ratliff 27 50 36.0 9.1 .499 0.0 9.1 .499 .499 5.8 8.3 1.2 0.6 3.7 2.5 3.3 12.4
3 Dikembe Mutombo 34 26 33.7 7.8 .495 0.0 7.8 .495 .495 7.8 12.4 0.8 0.3 2.5 2.0 2.5 11.7
4 Aaron McKie 28 76 31.5 9.4 .473 2.2 .312 7.2 .524 .511 3.7 4.1 5.0 1.4 0.1 2.7 2.3 11.6
5 Eric Snow 27 50 34.8 8.7 .418 0.4 .263 8.3 .425 .424 2.8 3.3 7.4 1.5 0.1 2.5 2.5 9.8
6 Tyrone Hill 32 76 31.1 7.7 .474 0.0 .000 7.7 .474 .474 5.9 9.0 0.6 0.5 0.4 1.7 3.2 9.6
7 George Lynch 30 82 32.3 7.5 .445 0.7 .263 6.8 .463 .457 4.8 7.2 1.7 1.2 0.4 1.3 2.7 8.4
8 Toni Kukoc 32 48 20.4 6.9 .458 1.6 .410 5.3 .472 .506 2.4 3.4 1.9 0.7 0.1 1.3 1.3 8.0
9 Matt Geiger 31 35 15.5 6.4 .393 0.1 .000 6.3 .396 .393 2.5 4.0 0.4 0.3 0.2 0.7 2.1 6.1
10 Rodney Buford 23 47 12.2 5.1 .432 0.8 .421 4.3 .433 .465 1.2 1.6 0.4 0.4 0.1 0.6 1.4 5.3
11 Vernon Maxwell 35 24 15.6 5.2 .336 2.7 .328 2.5 .344 .420 1.4 1.5 1.2 0.5 0.0 0.8 1.4 5.0
12 Jumaine Jones 21 65 13.3 4.2 .444 0.9 .333 3.3 .474 .480 1.9 2.9 0.5 0.5 0.2 0.6 1.0 4.7
13 Todd MacCulloch 25 63 9.5 2.9 .589 0.0 2.9 .589 .589 1.6 2.7 0.2 0.1 0.3 0.4 1.5 4.1
14 Kevin Ollie 28 51 15.0 3.2 .430 0.1 .333 3.2 .432 .433 1.2 1.4 2.4 0.5 0.0 0.8 1.4 3.8
15 Nazr Mohammed 23 30 6.5 2.9 .466 0.0 2.9 .466 .466 1.2 1.8 0.1 0.2 0.2 0.3 1.3 3.2
RedmenBaller wrote:Lopez, O'Quinn, Williams and Aflalo. Everyone is talking about how they are the "right type" of players and will make such a difference. I sure hope so. I would have rather gone with younger less expensive "Right Types" but Stats don't lie. We were all happy to see Bargnani and his 15pt career average go for vets minimum but took on a bigger bust in Williams at 4M. No offer for guys like Smith, Aldmundson, Shved or Aldrich but gave O quinn and his 5 ppg career average 4M. And Lopez gets 14 million average per year but Phil cant offer Monroe, a young big with consistent improvement and higher rated 16.5 Million. I am sure the whole NBA thought Lopez was just as good as Monroe prior to free agency. Aflalo, may be the only one who's number justify signing at 8M, as long as he returns to previous production. Just cant say that we got our moneys worth. Prefer rooting for young ball players that can be sculpted to "Right Types". Dunno, maybe I am just seeing all these young guys trying to make it in summer league that seem to have lots of talent and could be just as good if given the chance.
I admit some of the moves are puzzling especially Williams, I knew we weren't getting any of the top guys but I really thought we would end up with Monroe
nixluva wrote:RedmenBaller wrote:Lopez, O'Quinn, Williams and Aflalo. Everyone is talking about how they are the "right type" of players and will make such a difference. I sure hope so. I would have rather gone with younger less expensive "Right Types" but Stats don't lie. We were all happy to see Bargnani and his 15pt career average go for vets minimum but took on a bigger bust in Williams at 4M. No offer for guys like Smith, Aldmundson, Shved or Aldrich but gave O quinn and his 5 ppg career average 4M. And Lopez gets 14 million average per year but Phil cant offer Monroe, a young big with consistent improvement and higher rated 16.5 Million. I am sure the whole NBA thought Lopez was just as good as Monroe prior to free agency. Aflalo, may be the only one who's number justify signing at 8M, as long as he returns to previous production. Just cant say that we got our moneys worth. Prefer rooting for young ball players that can be sculpted to "Right Types". Dunno, maybe I am just seeing all these young guys trying to make it in summer league that seem to have lots of talent and could be just as good if given the chance.I don't look at our acquisitions from an individual standpoint nor how much we paid for a given player. It's about how they all fit together and work with the team as a whole and in this system. After getting KP and Jerian in the draft, Phil and his staff mapped out groups of players that fit and not just by grabbing guys at random. This group was actually one of their scenarios going into FA. DWill was the one they admitted was a wild card to the needs they felt they addressed with KP, Jerian, RoLo, Afflalo and O'Quinn.
Lead Guard Scoring Guard Small Forward Power Forward Center
Jerian Grant Arron Afflalo Kristaps Porzingis Carmelo Anthony Robin Lopez
Jose Calderon Cleanthony Early Derrick Williams Kyle O’Quinn
Langston Galloway Ricky Ledo Lance Thomas Lou AmundsonPhil has a very deep and holistic approach to how his teams work together and I think that he's trying to put together this team with players who naturally do the kind of SELFLESS things that he knows lead to wins. It may not look sexy when you look at the names but it's not about that in the end. It's gonna be about how they all work together as a unit. It reminds me of what Larry Brown decided to do with the roster they built around Allen Iverson. Their Finals Team was really about fit more than names. Even tho they didn't win it all still it was a good example of how you can build a team that works better than you'd think it would by looking at the individuals on the roster. The Detroit Pistons Finals teams with Billups etc. and he Mavs Title team was similar.
Rk Player Age G MP FGA FG% 3PA 3P% 2PA 2P% eFG% FT TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS ▾
1 Allen Iverson 25 71 42.0 25.5 .420 4.3 .320 21.2 .441 .447 3.1 3.8 4.6 2.5 0.3 3.3 2.1 31.1
2 Theo Ratliff 27 50 36.0 9.1 .499 0.0 9.1 .499 .499 5.8 8.3 1.2 0.6 3.7 2.5 3.3 12.4
3 Dikembe Mutombo 34 26 33.7 7.8 .495 0.0 7.8 .495 .495 7.8 12.4 0.8 0.3 2.5 2.0 2.5 11.7
4 Aaron McKie 28 76 31.5 9.4 .473 2.2 .312 7.2 .524 .511 3.7 4.1 5.0 1.4 0.1 2.7 2.3 11.6
5 Eric Snow 27 50 34.8 8.7 .418 0.4 .263 8.3 .425 .424 2.8 3.3 7.4 1.5 0.1 2.5 2.5 9.8
6 Tyrone Hill 32 76 31.1 7.7 .474 0.0 .000 7.7 .474 .474 5.9 9.0 0.6 0.5 0.4 1.7 3.2 9.6
7 George Lynch 30 82 32.3 7.5 .445 0.7 .263 6.8 .463 .457 4.8 7.2 1.7 1.2 0.4 1.3 2.7 8.4
8 Toni Kukoc 32 48 20.4 6.9 .458 1.6 .410 5.3 .472 .506 2.4 3.4 1.9 0.7 0.1 1.3 1.3 8.0
9 Matt Geiger 31 35 15.5 6.4 .393 0.1 .000 6.3 .396 .393 2.5 4.0 0.4 0.3 0.2 0.7 2.1 6.1
10 Rodney Buford 23 47 12.2 5.1 .432 0.8 .421 4.3 .433 .465 1.2 1.6 0.4 0.4 0.1 0.6 1.4 5.3
11 Vernon Maxwell 35 24 15.6 5.2 .336 2.7 .328 2.5 .344 .420 1.4 1.5 1.2 0.5 0.0 0.8 1.4 5.0
12 Jumaine Jones 21 65 13.3 4.2 .444 0.9 .333 3.3 .474 .480 1.9 2.9 0.5 0.5 0.2 0.6 1.0 4.7
13 Todd MacCulloch 25 63 9.5 2.9 .589 0.0 2.9 .589 .589 1.6 2.7 0.2 0.1 0.3 0.4 1.5 4.1
14 Kevin Ollie 28 51 15.0 3.2 .430 0.1 .333 3.2 .432 .433 1.2 1.4 2.4 0.5 0.0 0.8 1.4 3.8
15 Nazr Mohammed 23 30 6.5 2.9 .466 0.0 2.9 .466 .466 1.2 1.8 0.1 0.2 0.2 0.3 1.3 3.2
The East was way worse then, also Iverson > Melo , Mutombo > anyone else on the roster