Knicks · Knicks Are Moving Away from a pure Triangle Offense (page 1)
LAS VEGAS — Call it a triangle on speed.
In March, during the Knicks’ road trip to Los Angeles, coach Derek Fisher was asked whether the team would run the triangle offense with the same frequency in 2015-16.
“Anything’s possible,’’ Fisher said. “We’ll have a lot of time to figure out a lot of things.’’
What Fisher has figured — and with president Phil Jackson’s blessing — is the triangle needed to be souped up and adapted to the modern-day NBA. Hence, the Knicks summer league team, which is 3-0 entering Thursday’s action, is showing new wrinkles — adding a speed-ball element, used by former Knicks coach Mike D’Antoni. The Knicks open the playoff round at 4:30 p.m. Thursday on MSG against the Warriors.
The idea is to race the ball upcourt to try to get an easy bucket before settling into the cuts of the triangle. More pick and rolls have been added at the beginning of the possession — which is a carryover from last April.
Quietly, there’s more cowbell and less triangle in Jackson’s Knicks, who were a 17-65 laughingstock last season. Fisher said he believes playing an exclusive halfcourt set is too predictable and he’s intent on “exploring’’ this new method here.
“I’m excited about being able to play faster and do some different things in the open floor,’’ Fisher said. “We never intended to play slow in the past. We’re doing different things to emphasize the pace more, to not give guys the impression we want to walk it up and get right into our format. Our guys are really taking to it. We’re looking to do the same things in training camp and regular season. Teams are too good to play against a halfcourt-set defense all the time.’’
Jerian Grant, the speedy rookie point guard from Notre Dame, was obtained on draft night with the faster pace in mind. The Knicks gave up shooting guard Tim Hardaway Jr., who is not a ballhandler, for the rights to Grant, selected at No. 19 by Atlanta.
There’s a scenario in which Fisher starts an all-point-guard backcourt of Grant and veteran Jose Calderon to get the ball downcourt faster. That alignment would have Arron Afflalo as the sixth man.
Afflalo is not very fast nor a good ballhandler. Fisher also has talked about filling one of the remaining two roster spots with a speedy guard.
“We want to run first,” Grant said. “They’ve told me to push the ball after a miss.
“If we can’t get that, then we can run a drag screen or go into our basic offense. But he wants us to try to control the tempo first.”
Grant is known as a pick-and-roll point guard, and 19-year-old Kristaps Porzingis is known to have set picks all across Spain and has been doing the same here.
“The offense is going to be designed around the guys that we have,” Fisher said. “The screen and roll is going to be a part of what we do, but it’s not necessarily going to become something we rely on to get good shots at all times.”
Last summer, scouts were impressed at Fisher’s dedication to Jackson’s triangle, running it on every possession in Vegas. Now you might miss it if you don’t pay close attention.
Fisher is taking a page from Steve Kerr, a Jackson disciple who turned down the Knicks last May to run the Warriors, where he won the NBA championship. Kerr ran a hybrid offense that contained just a shred of triangle principles mixed with a piece of D’Antoni’s up-tempo attack.
Jackson was evidently disappointed how last season’s squad picked up the triangle. In an online series running in July that looks back on the season through Jackson’s lens, he lamented the lackluster way the Knicks were executing the “triple-post offense’’ that relies on constant hard cuts and quick passes.
Jackson said it was “too much work’’ for the players and found them “robotic.”
“Too many of these guys don’t want to change the way they’ve always played, running isos and screen/rolls,” Jackson said. “We simply don’t have enough talent to win playing that way. If we executed the triangle with a full commitment, and had the same attitude on defense, then we’d win our share of games. But that’s too much work.’’
The triangle, lampooned in many circles for being outdated because it de-emphasizes the popular 3-point shot, will have a Fisher flavor in 2015-16.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-knicks-t...
So Fish had his guards push the ball and look for early offense 1st. He also added a Drag Screen at the top if nothing was happening. All of this started last year and you can see that in how Shved was playing. Shved was pushing the ball and there were more Drag Screens at the top from one of the bigs. The difference now is that the SL team is more aggressively doing the same things. Just watch the videos below and you see that Shved is looking to push the ball and then rather than just set up the Triangle he will get a Drag Screen from one of the bigs and sometimes he'll use it and other teams he will fake like he's gonna use the screen but reverse direction and drive. In any event this is proof that Fish had already made these adjustments last year. They still run Triangle.
nixluva wrote:This is a WAY overblown adjustment. The changes started last year and it doesn't mean they're moving away from the Triangle. The problem was that players were so focused on trying to run the Triangle Half Court set that they weren't playing basketball. The offense was never intended to be run so predictably and robotic. That was how our players chose to do it and it was clear that they needed to do something to get the players to loosen up and play faster and less predictably.So Fish had his guards push the ball and look for early offense 1st. He also added a Drag Screen at the top if nothing was happening. All of this started last year and you can see that in how Shved was playing. Shved was pushing the ball and there were more Drag Screens at the top from one of the bigs. The difference now is that the SL team is more aggressively doing the same things. Just watch the videos below and you see that Shved is looking to push the ball and then rather than just set up the Triangle he will get a Drag Screen from one of the bigs and sometimes he'll use it and other teams he will fake like he's gonna use the screen but reverse direction and drive. In any event this is proof that Fish had already made these adjustments last year. They still run Triangle.
It said "Knicks Are Moving Away from a pure Triangle Offense". No one said we are moving away from the triangle.
nixluva wrote:The problem was that players were so focused on trying to run the Triangle Half Court set that they weren't playing basketball.
Perfectly said.
Breen and Frazier both said something like that the other day during Summer League play. The team was tight, moves were made tentatively, they were robotic due to the Triangle offense. Very interesting to hear a criticism of The Triangle. I thought MSG management was going to cut their mics off right there and fire them live on TV.
FireWoodson wrote:nixluva wrote:The problem was that players were so focused on trying to run the Triangle Half Court set that they weren't playing basketball.Perfectly said.
Breen and Frazier both said something like that the other day during Summer League play. The team was tight, moves were made tentatively, they were robotic due to the Triangle offense. Very interesting to hear a criticism of The Triangle. I thought MSG management was going to cut their mics off right there and fire them live on TV.
Not a "critique" of the Triangle itself...it is essentially a critique of the guys who were playing it.
Might be a subtle distiction, but you really have to read between the lines, and Jackson has also spoken about this too, by the way. He might have used the word "mechanical," or "going through the motions."
earthmansurfer wrote:nixluva wrote:This is a WAY overblown adjustment. The changes started last year and it doesn't mean they're moving away from the Triangle. The problem was that players were so focused on trying to run the Triangle Half Court set that they weren't playing basketball. The offense was never intended to be run so predictably and robotic. That was how our players chose to do it and it was clear that they needed to do something to get the players to loosen up and play faster and less predictably.So Fish had his guards push the ball and look for early offense 1st. He also added a Drag Screen at the top if nothing was happening. All of this started last year and you can see that in how Shved was playing. Shved was pushing the ball and there were more Drag Screens at the top from one of the bigs. The difference now is that the SL team is more aggressively doing the same things. Just watch the videos below and you see that Shved is looking to push the ball and then rather than just set up the Triangle he will get a Drag Screen from one of the bigs and sometimes he'll use it and other teams he will fake like he's gonna use the screen but reverse direction and drive. In any event this is proof that Fish had already made these adjustments last year. They still run Triangle.
It said "Knicks Are Moving Away from a pure Triangle Offense". No one said we are moving away from the triangle.
DO you even know what that means? What is the Pure Triangle Offense? Why don't you explain that to us so that we can be clear just what the Media means. I actually challenge anyone including the media to breakdown what the "Pure Triangle Offense" is.
WaltLongmire wrote:Not a "critique" of the Triangle itself...it is essentially a critique of the guys who were playing it.Might be a subtle distiction
No, not a subtle distinction at all. Rather a correct distinction. It was the players on our team - the Shumps, the JRs - rather than the system that was the main culprit for our failure last season.
TPercy wrote:The system did not do the players any favor either...
But now you are taking this to a chicken-or-the-egg scenario. Is it the system...or is it the players?
One thing we clearly do know is that the system is more than capable of winning championships. Can we say the same about the players Shump and JR?
FireWoodson wrote:TPercy wrote:The system did not do the players any favor either...
But now you are taking this to a chicken-or-the-egg scenario. Is it the system...or is it the players?One thing we clearly do know is that the system is more than capable of winning championships. Can we say the same about the players Shump and JR?
You're right! People have been judging the Triangle based on how it looked with our crappy guards running it. Funny how much better it looks with Shved or Jerian running it. It doesn't even look like the same offense to people. The media is eager to push this narrative that they're changing the Triangle, but they don't even realize that Phil has ALWAYS changed the Triangle to make use of the talent he had. He ran the system different with Pippen after he saw that he could handle the ball. He did the same things in LA making small tweaks when he had Odom. We don't have those players so we're gonna see a slightly different adjustment of the offense but it's still the Triangle.
FireWoodson wrote:TPercy wrote:The system did not do the players any favor either...
But now you are taking this to a chicken-or-the-egg scenario. Is it the system...or is it the players?One thing we clearly do know is that the system is more than capable of winning championships. Can we say the same about the players Shump and JR?
The triangle has been ran with two HOFs when they won championships. A strict triangle gives you too many inefficient shots.
nixluva wrote:earthmansurfer wrote:nixluva wrote:This is a WAY overblown adjustment. The changes started last year and it doesn't mean they're moving away from the Triangle. The problem was that players were so focused on trying to run the Triangle Half Court set that they weren't playing basketball. The offense was never intended to be run so predictably and robotic. That was how our players chose to do it and it was clear that they needed to do something to get the players to loosen up and play faster and less predictably.So Fish had his guards push the ball and look for early offense 1st. He also added a Drag Screen at the top if nothing was happening. All of this started last year and you can see that in how Shved was playing. Shved was pushing the ball and there were more Drag Screens at the top from one of the bigs. The difference now is that the SL team is more aggressively doing the same things. Just watch the videos below and you see that Shved is looking to push the ball and then rather than just set up the Triangle he will get a Drag Screen from one of the bigs and sometimes he'll use it and other teams he will fake like he's gonna use the screen but reverse direction and drive. In any event this is proof that Fish had already made these adjustments last year. They still run Triangle.
It said "Knicks Are Moving Away from a pure Triangle Offense". No one said we are moving away from the triangle.
DO you even know what that means? What is the Pure Triangle Offense? Why don't you explain that to us so that we can be clear just what the Media means. I actually challenge anyone including the media to breakdown what the "Pure Triangle Offense" is.
As I said in the other thread, no I don't. I was taking the article at face value, so forward your concerns to the writer of the article.
TPercy wrote:FireWoodson wrote:TPercy wrote:The system did not do the players any favor either...
But now you are taking this to a chicken-or-the-egg scenario. Is it the system...or is it the players?One thing we clearly do know is that the system is more than capable of winning championships. Can we say the same about the players Shump and JR?
The triangle has been ran with two HOFs when they won championships. A strict triangle gives you too many inefficient shots.
Man don't fall for this crap!!! This is what the media wants you to think. You don't need two HOF's in order for the offense to function efficiently. The presence of the Elite players helps when things bog down and in particular in late game situations. The offense runs just fine during the vast majority of the game. Just watching the SL team you can see that there's nothing wrong with the offense.
Heck last year when Shved came on board you could see how it could work with a better guard. We upgraded our guards with Jerian and Afflalo. Hopefully that will have a positive impact and so far so good. When you have quality players the Triangle will put them in prime scoring position, they have to be able to finish the plays by making shots and not always settling for only the midrange jumpers. We won't be seeing that this year. We'll be seeing more plays at the rim as the offense is designed to do.
earthmansurfer wrote:nixluva wrote:earthmansurfer wrote:nixluva wrote:This is a WAY overblown adjustment. The changes started last year and it doesn't mean they're moving away from the Triangle. The problem was that players were so focused on trying to run the Triangle Half Court set that they weren't playing basketball. The offense was never intended to be run so predictably and robotic. That was how our players chose to do it and it was clear that they needed to do something to get the players to loosen up and play faster and less predictably.So Fish had his guards push the ball and look for early offense 1st. He also added a Drag Screen at the top if nothing was happening. All of this started last year and you can see that in how Shved was playing. Shved was pushing the ball and there were more Drag Screens at the top from one of the bigs. The difference now is that the SL team is more aggressively doing the same things. Just watch the videos below and you see that Shved is looking to push the ball and then rather than just set up the Triangle he will get a Drag Screen from one of the bigs and sometimes he'll use it and other teams he will fake like he's gonna use the screen but reverse direction and drive. In any event this is proof that Fish had already made these adjustments last year. They still run Triangle.
It said "Knicks Are Moving Away from a pure Triangle Offense". No one said we are moving away from the triangle.
DO you even know what that means? What is the Pure Triangle Offense? Why don't you explain that to us so that we can be clear just what the Media means. I actually challenge anyone including the media to breakdown what the "Pure Triangle Offense" is.As I said in the other thread, no I don't. I was taking the article at face value, so forward your concerns to the writer of the article.
Sorry if i'm coming off as a jerk here. I'm just so tired of the Media talking what they don't know and creating this narrative that the Triangle is somehow irrelevant.
Most of these media guys have NO IDEA what the Triangle actually is beyond the obvious. They basically have no idea what they're looking at. Most people haven't spent the time to really learn what is going on in the Triangle nor how it's been adjusted over the years based on the players Phil has had. It's not always the same. Phil made it clear that Fish had the freedom to adjust the offense as he saw fit. A lot depends on the players you have and their strengths. The offense will always be tweaked to take advantage of a players strengths but they still have to have a base level of BB IQ and skills for it to work. That's why players had to go and Phil is loading the team up with more players who have the needed IQ and talents.
TPercy wrote:
What is the point you're trying to make with this video?
nixluva wrote:TPercy wrote:
What is the point you're trying to make with this video?
People don't know what a pure triangle is, here it is.
TPercy wrote:nixluva wrote:TPercy wrote:
What is the point you're trying to make with this video?People don't know what a pure triangle is, here it is.
That video is showing the basics of the Half Court part of offense but not the spirit of the offense. The spirit of the offense is more than the actual formations and actions they get into. This video is just a robotic execution of the options in the offense but it's not really the Triangle. It's a read and react offense that is supposed to be executed at speed. It's an offense that actually is a full court offense with a fast break component to it and not just the Half Court stuff we see in the video. The idea is to push the ball and look for early scoring opportunities and only settle into the Base Triangle if there's nothing there and if the defense is set.
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound OffenseAn effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
2. Spacing. I am a fanatic about how players distribute themselves on the offensive end of the court. They must space themselves in a way that makes it most difficult to defend, trap, and help. Players must align a certain number of feet apart. In high school, I’d recommend 12 to 15 feet spacing, in college, 15 to18 feet, and in the NBA, 15 to 20 feet. Proper spacing not only exposes individual defensive players’ vulnerabilities, but also ensures that every time the defense tries to trap, an offensive player will be open.
3. Ball and player movements. Players must move, and must move the ball, with a purpose. Effective off-the-ball activity is much more important than most fans and players think because they’re so used to watching only the movement of the ball and the player in possession of it. But there is only one ball and there are five players, meaning most players will have the ball in their hands 20 percent or less of the time the team is in possession of the ball.
4. Options for the ball handler. The more options a smart player has to attack a defender, the more successful that offensive player will be. When teammates are all moving to positions to free themselves (or another teammate with a pick), the ball handler’s choices are vastly increased.
5. Offensive rebounding and defensive balance. On all shots we take, players must go strong for the rebound while retaining court balance and awareness to prevent the opponent’s fast break.
6. Versatile positioning. The offense must offer to any player the chance to fill any spot on the court, independent of the player’s role. All positions should be interchangeable.
7. Use individual talents. It only makes sense for an offense to allow a team to take advantage of the skill sets of its best players. This doesn’t preclude the focus on team play that is emphasized in the six other principles, but it does acknowledge that some individuals have certain types and degrees of talent, and an offense should accentuate those assets. Michael Jordan taught me this.
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
The triangle offense has proven most effective, even against such obstacles, when players commit to and execute the system. The offense hinges on players attending to minute details in executing not just plays but also the fundamentals underlying the plays. Once players have mastered the individual techniques required of their roles, we then integrate those individuals into a team. Once this is done, the foundation for a good offense is solidly in place. The team can then go on the court with the confidence and poise so essential to success.
This method of play is as old as basketball. The triangle set is adjustable to the personnel, but such adaptations can be made without altering the essence of the offense. The only necessary adjustment from one season to the next involves tailoring the series of options based on each individual’s talents.
http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/ex...