Knicks · Triangle Tex..........Its been old and outdated for decades!!! (page 1)

If you read any of phils books you'll know that critics called the Triangle outdated for some time now.

After graduating college in 1947, Winter immediately entered the coaching profession as an assistant to Hall-of-Famer Jack Gardner at Kansas State University. He would work as a basketball coach for the next 61 years.

In 1952, Winter began a two-year stint as head coach at Marquette University, becoming the youngest coach in major college basketball. In 1954 Winter returned to Kansas State.[4][5] Winter served as Kansas State's head coach for the following 15 years, posting a 261-118 (.689) record. He still owns the record for most league titles (eight) in school history and twice led the Wildcats to the Final Four (1958 and 1964). Winter guided K-State to postseason play seven times overall, including six trips to the NCAA Tournament, and boasts one of the highest winning percentages in K-State's history.

Winter was named UPI National Coach of the Year in 1958 after he led Kansas State to the Final Four by knocking off Oscar Robertson and second-ranked Cincinnati in an 83-80 double-overtime thriller. Junior center Bob Boozer was one of three Wildcats to be named a first team All-America, along with teammates Jack Parr and Roy DeWitz. K-State advanced to their fourth Final Four in 1964. Winter’s Wildcats knocked off Texas Western and Wichita State to reach Municipal Auditorium in Kansas City, Missouri. Two-time Big Eight selection Willie Murrell averaged 25.3 points per game during the run, which ended in a 90-82 loss to eventual national champion UCLA.

In 1962, Winter also wrote the book, entitled The Triple-Post Offense, on the triangle offense – the offense which he utilized with such success at Kansas State. Following his leaving Kansas State to his assistant Cotton Fitzsimmons, Winter served shorter stints as head coach at the University of Washington (where he was hired by then Athletic Director Joseph Kearney), Northwestern University, and Long Beach State. In 1982, LSU’s Dale Brown, who Winter befriended when Brown was a high school coach, hired him as an assistant for one year 1983-84.[6] In total, Winter won 454 games at the collegiate level.

Professional coaching

Winter was hired by Pete Newell as head coach of the Houston Rockets for two seasons, 1971–1973, posting a 51-78 (.395) record.

In 1985, Winter started another chapter of his life after contemplating retirement, serving as an assistant coach with the Chicago Bulls, and teaching the triangle offense to Michael Jordan. He was hired to the position by General Manager Jerry Krause, an old friend he had met while at Kansas State. As an assistant to Phil Jackson, who took over as the Bulls' head coach in 1989, Winter and his triangle offense were an integral part of the Bulls' NBA championships in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, and 1998. Winter followed Phil Jackson to the Los Angeles Lakers, where he collected three additional championship rings, in 2000, 2001, and 2002. Winter was also a consultant for the NBA-champion 2008–09 Los Angeles Lakers team.[7]

I would love to see the triangle proven without MJ, Kobe, Shaq

mreinman wrote:I would love to see the triangle proven without MJ, Kobe, Shaq

Well any good team is gonna need a Star player so what's your point? How about the Spurs minus Duncan or Cavs minus Lebron. I mean really it's always gonna be an issue if your team doesn't have at least one star player. Here in NY Melo is gonna be that star player and as we move along hopefully KP and Jerian can become top players for this team along with Melo. This season Melo and Afflalo will have to carry the lead on offense as we develop the rest of the guys.

The thing about the Triangle is that it's PURE BASKETBALL. It can't really be obsolete since it's about the team thinking as one. The longer the team plays in the system the faster they are able to execute and think the game together. It really becomes a beautiful thing to watch when a team really develops chemistry in this system. All the passing and movement becomes sharper and quicker than the defense is able to react.

mreinman wrote:I would love to see the triangle proven without MJ, Kobe, Shaq

Didn't Wisconsin run the triangle or parts of it this past year.?

mreinman wrote:I would love to see the triangle proven without MJ, Kobe, Shaq

But for a bad call on Hubert Davis, triangle would have made it to the finals without MJ.

CrushAlot wrote:

mreinman wrote:I would love to see the triangle proven without MJ, Kobe, Shaq

Didn't Wisconsin run the triangle or parts of it this past year.?

Wisconsin runs the Swing Offense.

The Swing is a four-out patterned offense with continuity. All five players are interchangeable, and spacing, screening, cutting and accurate passing are vital. All five players have opportunities to post up inside, and the Badgers often invert their offense and post guards. The offense is deliberate (Wisconsin ranks 333rd out of 351 in the nation in adjusted tempo), often with multiple passes and places value on each possession with high percentage inside shots, or free-throws. Unlike some of the recent, newer offenses that feature dribble penetration as their engine of point generation, the Swing offense is truly a “team-offense” that places a premium on good passing, screening and cutting.

The Swing offense blends elements from the UCLA offense, the flex offense, and the triangle offense. But the Swing is not magic, the Badgers limit turnovers because of fundamentals. When Wisconsin players receive the ball on the perimeter, they get in triple-threat position, and look into the post or take the ball to the action the Swing creates. Wisconsin players rarely waste dribbles. They do not take off without a plan. Deliberate? Yes, but very effective.

The Swing begins as a four-out/one-in set. The two top players occupy the slots and set up just wider than the lane lines on the perimeter. The two wings are wide and positioned at or above what is known as the “motion line.” Ryan wants his players above this line so they have two avenues of attack from the wing.

[urlhttp://bballbreakdown.com/2015/02/14/wisconsin-badgers-inside-the-best-offense-in-college-basketball/[/url]

mreinman wrote:I would love to see the triangle proven without MJ, Kobe, Shaq

I just did.

Non of the above won without it except Shaq in Miami.

mreinman wrote:I would love to see the triangle proven without MJ, Kobe, Shaq

I would love to see any offense operate without great players and win the finals. I would have loved to see ATL beat a super ISO team last year. They lost to a team who's best player set the record for the worst shooting 3pt shooting % I believe.

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:I would love to see the triangle proven without MJ, Kobe, Shaq

But for a bad call on Hubert Davis, triangle would have made it to the finals without MJ.

People tend to forget how good they were that year without MJ. It was said by Tex that they ran the Triangle to near perfection.

Tex Winter asserts that the 93-94 Bulls ran the triangle offense more efficiently than any of his other NBA teams, mainly because of Scottie's direction and ballhandling skills.

Before the 1993-94 season, when Jordan left the Bulls, many believed they would lose half their games. They won 55 with what Krause called “the best-coached team I’ve ever seen.”

mreinman wrote:I would love to see the triangle proven without MJ, Kobe, Shaq

Bingo. You and me both.

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:I would love to see the triangle proven without MJ, Kobe, Shaq

But for a bad call on Hubert Davis, triangle would have made it to the finals without MJ.

I was hoping you would not bring that one up. I have used it many times as a testament to how great pippen was. But this was definitely a huge victory for Phil and against the arguments that he only did it with the super super stars.

But also, lets not forget how great that team was even without Jordan.

And also, nobody is arguing that Phil is not perhaps the greatest coach of all time. So was it him or the triangle?

So far the triangle has failed miserably outside of a phil coached team.

Nalod wrote:

mreinman wrote:I would love to see the triangle proven without MJ, Kobe, Shaq

I just did.

Non of the above won without it except Shaq in Miami.

thats a really weak argument (or maybe just trying to be humorous - hehe?)

mreinman wrote:

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:I would love to see the triangle proven without MJ, Kobe, Shaq

But for a bad call on Hubert Davis, triangle would have made it to the finals without MJ.

I was hoping you would not bring that one up. I have used it many times as a testament to how great pippen was. But this was definitely a huge victory for Phil and against the arguments that he only did it with the super super stars.

But also, lets not forget how great that team was even without Jordan.

And also, nobody is arguing that Phil is not perhaps the greatest coach of all time. So was it him or the triangle?

So far the triangle has failed miserably outside of a phil coached team.

There haven't been any really good situations where you had a coach who could go 100% with the Triangle, a good team and a GM who allowed the coach to stick with the system long enough to let it work. Phil had Krause who had his back and now Fish has Phil so there's more of a chance that it can work here. Also people don't count the college teams that have used the entire Triangle offense of part of it. Also the pro teams that are using parts of the Triangle over the years, including SA and GS.

mreinman wrote:I would love to see the triangle proven without MJ, Kobe, Shaq

Every system needs stars to win. If there was a system that could win without stars, all teams would use it. But keep something in mind, these teams not only won titles, but became dynasties. Even stars today like Lebron and Duncan can't put together 3 titles in a row. Phil did it, what, 3 times? And no team has done it even once since. Lebron, Wade, and Bosh didn't. Regardless of who he had on his team, that's beyond impressive.

martin wrote:

mreinman wrote:I would love to see the triangle proven without MJ, Kobe, Shaq

But for a bad call on Hubert Davis, triangle would have made it to the finals without MJ.

Chicago lost in the second round to the Knicks in 1994.

Knixkik wrote:

mreinman wrote:I would love to see the triangle proven without MJ, Kobe, Shaq

Every system needs stars to win. If there was a system that could win without stars, all teams would use it. But keep something in mind, these teams not only won titles, but became dynasties. Even stars today like Lebron and Duncan can't put together 3 titles in a row. Phil did it, what, 3 times? And no team has done it even once since. Lebron, Wade, and Bosh didn't. Regardless of who he had on his team, that's beyond impressive.

THANK YOU!!!

This is the system that Phil chose to win all those regular season games, playoff games and titles with. We just got started with the process with some less than optimal players last year and got rid of those guys and now have a better group of guys to move forward with. We need to give this some time to develop. I like the talent Phil has brought in and I think they will be a better fit for this system.

No team wins a championship without great players!

Jordan or Kobe NEVER won a chip without Phil coaching.

The Triangle fails when roster is not in synch with the system. Its why Knicks were willing to do what is necessary to build one from the ground up.
Did Denver? Did Minny? I only know of Shaw and Rambis. Did either have the juice card when hired that it was absolutely imperative that the players need be properly vetted for it to work?
I'm not sure Kahn was the man for Rambis and Shaw did not have the pieces either. Easier to remove the coach.

Knicks came in with Phil and he DEMANDED he have all say in setting up this franchise from how decisions were to be made, how the roster would be constructed, and how the team would play.
Dolan paid $60mil which tells me the dude has complete buy in and respect. The team has drafted a 7'3 guy who is not an impact now player. We went after free agents with a purpose and was upfront with Aldridge and Deandre.

I can't tell you how, if or when this franchise will win a chip but its on the right track. I posted the fact the triangle has been used for years. Krause had Tex in Chicago with Collins but he needed Phil to get it done. Krause had full buy in and likely so did reinsdorf. In LA Phil had the cred and the full backing of an owner who understood. Owners either delegate or lead themselves.
Minny and Denver were bad fits for the triangle because they did not apply patience nor had the organizational in line for complete change.

So what came first? The chicken or the Egg? Jordan became a god in the system. Kobe was Jordan 2.1. A lessor version. No doubt the greatness was within them but what did they need to succeed? A culture that promoted thought, a culture that put basketball first, and culture that those players could buy into.

Nobody is saying Melo can be Jordan 2.3, but the hope is his game is elevated to promote winning. Also, neither team had a 19 year old 7'3 player with KP's level of refinement.

Nalod wrote:Knicks came in with Phil and he DEMANDED he have all say in setting up this franchise from how decisions were to be made, how the roster would be constructed, and how the team would play.

I'm on board with this.

But that doesn't mean I don't sometimes wonder what is going on behind the scenes. So help me with your opinion.

For example, I was a little disappointed that Steve Kerr and Pau Gasol didn't think enough of Phil Jackson and the triangle culture to want to come to New York and revive it here. What am I missing about that (?)

And how actually good is Jackson's ability to judge in advance whether players are suited for the Triangle (?) What evidence do we have to answer that . . . one way or another (?) We can all agree that the 2014-2015 Knicks roster wasn't a success running the triangle -- but how well did Jackson really know that beforehand (?)

Malcolm wrote:

Nalod wrote:Knicks came in with Phil and he DEMANDED he have all say in setting up this franchise from how decisions were to be made, how the roster would be constructed, and how the team would play.

I'm on board with this.

But that doesn't mean I don't sometimes wonder what is going on behind the scenes. So help me with your opinion.

For example, I was a little disappointed that Steve Kerr and Pau Gasol didn't think enough of Phil Jackson and the triangle culture to want to come to New York and revive it here. What am I missing about that (?)

And how actually good is Jackson's ability to judge in advance whether players are suited for the Triangle (?) What evidence do we have to answer that . . . one way or another (?) We can all agree that the 2014-2015 Knicks roster wasn't a success running the triangle -- but how well did Jackson really know that beforehand (?)

Kerr and Gasol didn't want to come...because look at the roster! I mean there was Me7o, THJR, Shumpert, JR, Pablo, Bargnani....okay I'll stop right there!

I mean it's either coach Me7o or coach the Splash Bros...easiest answer of all time. Also Knicks only gave Kerr a 4 year commit, GS banked him for 5 years.

Pau also made the right choice for obvious reasons. If you're going to play with a ball hog, play with one that'll at least let you shoot it X amount of times. Rose and Butler like to share. He wasn't seeing that rock with the Knicks, unless he stole the ball from Me7o himself.

Malcolm wrote:

Nalod wrote:Knicks came in with Phil and he DEMANDED he have all say in setting up this franchise from how decisions were to be made, how the roster would be constructed, and how the team would play.

I'm on board with this.

But that doesn't mean I don't sometimes wonder what is going on behind the scenes. So help me with your opinion.

For example, I was a little disappointed that Steve Kerr and Pau Gasol didn't think enough of Phil Jackson and the triangle culture to want to come to New York and revive it here. What am I missing about that (?)

And how actually good is Jackson's ability to judge in advance whether players are suited for the Triangle (?) What evidence do we have to answer that . . . one way or another (?) We can all agree that the 2014-2015 Knicks roster wasn't a success running the triangle -- but how well did Jackson really know that beforehand (?)

Kerr - Better team, closer to home

Gasol - Better team, more money, twilight of carrer, playoffs

Phil - inheriter roster, cleaaned house for salary cap space 2015-16, building culture, building his own team, jury is still out. Tradeable contracts, can tweak roster with trades.

Malcolm wrote:

Nalod wrote:Knicks came in with Phil and he DEMANDED he have all say in setting up this franchise from how decisions were to be made, how the roster would be constructed, and how the team would play.

I'm on board with this.

But that doesn't mean I don't sometimes wonder what is going on behind the scenes. So help me with your opinion.

For example, I was a little disappointed that Steve Kerr and Pau Gasol didn't think enough of Phil Jackson and the triangle culture to want to come to New York and revive it here. What am I missing about that (?)

And how actually good is Jackson's ability to judge in advance whether players are suited for the Triangle (?) What evidence do we have to answer that . . . one way or another (?) We can all agree that the 2014-2015 Knicks roster wasn't a success running the triangle -- but how well did Jackson really know that beforehand (?)

After 13 rings, 11 as the all time leader Im under the opinion he knows WINNING. He also had a say in roster construction along the way. I'd say more than anything you give contract players a chance to prove themselves so last year was a combo of injury, lack of proper roster and some guys trade value was shyt even before the season started.

Pau went to a team that on paper should have competed better for the eastern championship and Thibs was fired for that reason. I think Pau at his age did want to carry a huge load. I think he only took a 7mm per year contract. He took a big cut. Not that he was a 20mm guy anymore.

Regarding Kerr, the bottom line was Kerr was his first choice and once done GS came a running. Given he is a California guy, has a kid in college near by, same money and a roster that won 55 games the year before its pretty darn obvious it was the best choice and Phil gave him his blessing. You don't want to hire people and then regret it. Even in his last book he mentions very early on he things Fish would be a great coach one day.

Fish coached a bad team. Some called for his head. I think you don't build if you keep making changes cuz the fans want it.