franco12 wrote:they clearly had more energy.I hope Fisher isn't so locked in to his starters that he won't change things.
Our 2nd unit played well, no matter who they were matched up against.
They saved us from being down in the 1st quarter.
He is going to have to juggle the line ups.
Move Calderon out, and either Gallo or Grant in.
And then maybe move Lopez & his big contract to the 2nd unit, and O'Quinn in.
I'm just curious, but why do you want to change something that is working so far? Seriously, I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything. I'm just wondering why you'd want to change something that is working so far. Do you think they'll still be as effective if they started? It doesn't always work out that way in the NBA. We can afford some patience right now, because we have a win and no losses yet. Let's see how things shake out over the next few games. Because on the flip side of what you've said, if we're winning games at a decent rate, I hope Fisher doesn't succumb to the pressure of changing the line ups just because folks want to see the SL play faster faster faster.
gunsnewing wrote:dk7th wrote:you guys can't be serious! we won by 25 points. if it ain't broke don't fix it. let our bench destroy the opponents' benches.
Won't work against good teams and your team will wear itself out. Remember when Woodson was starting Felton, Brewer, Melo, Kmart & Tyson and we'd be down doubk digits before you got settled on your couch?
Our bench at that time was nowhere near as powerful as our current bench seems to be. And please don't forget, and this is absolutely crucial I promise you, JR SMITH IS NO LONGER ON THE TEAM.
WaltLongmire wrote:Have to remember that the 2nd unit, in theory, is facing another team's bench, or perhaps a winded first unit. This can factor into results.Difficult to compare starters vs bench because of this...and there is also some overlap starters/bench players during any game.
Things will get sorted out as the season moves on and team chemistry evolves, and you hope that Fisher will maximize our chances of winning by putting the best combinations of players together, even if that means breaking a substitution pattern for a particular opponent.
Does not matter to me who starts or finishes a game. The players who are performing will get the most minutes.
We also have a ridiculously deep team, IMO, so Fisher has a lot of flexibility when deciding who to put on the floor.
Just can't look at one game and make final determinations about the optimum lineup and rotation for the team.
I do think things will work themselves out but think about your 2nd unit in theory facing the other teams bench or a winded first unit comment -
Last night, there were 14 games. 3 teams benches outscored their own starters. 2 in wins. It is rare. Ours did so by 50%. This is pretty damn huge (but maybe it doesn't keep up.)
I wouldn't have started this thread if the same thing didn't happen the whole pre-season.
In a way, we are in a good position. If we do really have a deep team, then we can probably better balance the starters and bench.
When Affalo gets back then things might change (and he was also gone during much of he preseason I think.
But, if he doesn't change things, then count on the starters being shaken up.
I'm even curious about Lopez Vs KOQ, which never crossed my mind till the last few games.
We sure have an excellent bench, just WOW.
herkyJerky wrote:franco12 wrote:they clearly had more energy.I hope Fisher isn't so locked in to his starters that he won't change things.
Our 2nd unit played well, no matter who they were matched up against.
They saved us from being down in the 1st quarter.
He is going to have to juggle the line ups.
Move Calderon out, and either Gallo or Grant in.
And then maybe move Lopez & his big contract to the 2nd unit, and O'Quinn in.
I'm just curious, but why do you want to change something that is working so far? Seriously, I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything. I'm just wondering why you'd want to change something that is working so far. Do you think they'll still be as effective if they started? It doesn't always work out that way in the NBA. We can afford some patience right now, because we have a win and no losses yet. Let's see how things shake out over the next few games. Because on the flip side of what you've said, if we're winning games at a decent rate, I hope Fisher doesn't succumb to the pressure of changing the line ups just because folks want to see the SL play faster faster faster.
Not to speak for franco12 but again, I think we are just seeing some incredibly strong disparity between the starters and bench.
Imagine the bench was about on par with the starters, that is nice. But when the bench outscores the starters (and perhaps plays better defense too), this is going to catch up with you.
So, even though it is "working", I have to put quotes there as it really isn't. Yeah, we get the win, but what do you think happens in 5 games if this trend continues?
Imagine, we keep winning but the starters keep "losing", at least the time they are in there. (With due respect to Affalo, as he can make a big difference with his scoring. But then again,
if his injury is going to be ongoing, and hamstrings can be, then he needs to come off the bench until fully healthy imo.)
I'm just curious, has there ever been a successful team whose starters always were behind but the bench outplayed them (for the win)? That is not a recipe for success.
I do agree with you and Walt, and others, about letting this sort itself out. This is just such an interesting problem to have.
Waiting a few games will give us more of a test bed to compare against with other lineups later on down the road.
Another good test tonight vs Atlanta.
Intelligent, well coached, but not an overly athletic, quick, or physically imposing team.
Teague is a PG who might give Calderon some issues, and Shroeder is in the backcourt and he is one of their best athletes and a guy who likes to go to the hoop.
Beating the Hawks would be a great confidence booster, and you figure our bench will be called on again because Anthony and Lopez might not be ready for a back to back at this point.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Calderon is going to start and he is going to play about 20-25 minutes. Let Grant run the second unit and he and Galloway can blow teams away in the second and late third quarters. The formula is to have the starters play even and then let our bench depth run teams into the ground. As good as he looks, Grant is not ready to be the lead guard. In fact, KP is not really ready either, but KP makes more sense as a starter because of his ability to hit open shots and the defense he brings. Calderon would be ineffective as a spark off the bench, so if you don't start him, you are pretty much eliminating his ability to help the team.
I'm not saying to change things up now - but I am expressing concern that our coach, who is inexperienced, may be, for whatever reasons, locked in to keeping our starters and 2nd unit lined up the way he has them.
Grant could def work with Affalo/Vujacic, Melo, KP, Lopez since 2-4 can shoot and he is a good penitrator and plays D. G
Calderon and Gallo also compliment each other. But there will be no changes unless we lose consistently.
franco12 wrote:I'm not saying to change things up now - but I am expressing concern that our coach, who is inexperienced, may be, for whatever reasons, locked in to keeping our starters and 2nd unit lined up the way he has them.
I've changed my mind. We need to get more defense/intensity/athleticism in the starting line up.
Another game the bench helped the starters out. I can say with confidence, get Calderon out of there. We actually need to bring Trice up, or another pg as with Calderon, it is going to be long year.
earthmansurfer wrote:herkyJerky wrote:franco12 wrote:they clearly had more energy.I hope Fisher isn't so locked in to his starters that he won't change things.
Our 2nd unit played well, no matter who they were matched up against.
They saved us from being down in the 1st quarter.
He is going to have to juggle the line ups.
Move Calderon out, and either Gallo or Grant in.
And then maybe move Lopez & his big contract to the 2nd unit, and O'Quinn in.
I'm just curious, but why do you want to change something that is working so far? Seriously, I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything. I'm just wondering why you'd want to change something that is working so far. Do you think they'll still be as effective if they started? It doesn't always work out that way in the NBA. We can afford some patience right now, because we have a win and no losses yet. Let's see how things shake out over the next few games. Because on the flip side of what you've said, if we're winning games at a decent rate, I hope Fisher doesn't succumb to the pressure of changing the line ups just because folks want to see the SL play faster faster faster.
Not to speak for franco12 but again, I think we are just seeing some incredibly strong disparity between the starters and bench.
Imagine the bench was about on par with the starters, that is nice. But when the bench outscores the starters (and perhaps plays better defense too), this is going to catch up with you.
So, even though it is "working", I have to put quotes there as it really isn't. Yeah, we get the win, but what do you think happens in 5 games if this trend continues?
Imagine, we keep winning but the starters keep "losing", at least the time they are in there. (With due respect to Affalo, as he can make a big difference with his scoring. But then again,
if his injury is going to be ongoing, and hamstrings can be, then he needs to come off the bench until fully healthy imo.)
I'm just curious, has there ever been a successful team whose starters always were behind but the bench outplayed them (for the win)? That is not a recipe for success.
I do agree with you and Walt, and others, about letting this sort itself out. This is just such an interesting problem to have.
Waiting a few games will give us more of a test bed to compare against with other lineups later on down the road.
Yeah, it is an interesting 'problem' to have. But I'm pretty convinced that our starters aren't always going to lose. I don't even think the 2nd Unit will consistently outscore our starters. It is a trend we've seen up to this point, but it's still early and trends don't usually last. And I'm definitely not convinced that our current 2nd Unit will do so well against other starters. The thing with Afflalo is interesting, especially right now, because as you more or less implied you can try to offset the loss of Grant and Gallo (moving them to the SL) by having Afflalo play with the 2nd Unit and justify it as a way to monitor his condition. It serves two purposes, the first being that it actually would make sense, the second being that he could make up for some of the punch they'll lose.
And to address my original response to this particular thread, it is starting to look like Fisher might in fact have to tinker with the line-ups. The situation with Calderon really sucks. I'd be okay with his bad defense for a while if he was at least contributing with points and establishing himself as a legitimate 3 point threat. If that were the case, I'd say keep the 2nd Unit exactly as it is and don't mess with anything. But I don't know, after the way he looked against the Hawks, this line of thought may have to be revised. I mean he didn't hit one single shot. Whatever ends up happening, I really hope it doesn't disrupt any chemistry or cause any problems in the locker room. In this case, I'd have to say the one good thing about this is the fact that Calderon is very unlikely to turn this into a negative/bad-vibes/overly-dramatic spectacle that's going to poison anything.
