Knicks · Lets talk trades or pickups to improve this team. (page 1)
We all know that we need some PG help badly and all the rumors of what the Knicks are looking at are starting so here's a article about some players the Knicks are rumored to be looking at.
I'd love to see what B.Jennings could do on this team as long as he's healthy.
TPercy wrote:Just change the system and watch the improvement on a majority of our players.
That's the problem tho. This system isn't about the individual, no more than the Spurs style of play is about the individual. The Spurs play a lot like the Knicks and actually use Triangle principles mixed into their offense. The Spurs play at the exact same pace as the Knicks, but they execute at a higher level consistently. When the Knicks actually execute they can perform at a high level too.
Any new player that actually has talent should be able to play well here too. The more talent they have the easier it should be to use that talent in this system. If you can shoot that won't change in this system. If you can push the ball and get to the rim that won't change in this system. If you can post up that won't change in this system. If you can pass that won't change in this system. Basically the only difference is if you are a PnR specialist and don't have much else to your game then it may hamper you. If you have a Low BBall IQ then this system may hamper you. If you lack experience and confidence then this could hamper you.
The low hanging fruit are all the D League players and Wroten who is just waiting. These are the easiest ways to try and add to the team and I would expect that to be the primary way Phil starts this process. They're cheap and usually young as well.
TPercy wrote:Just change the system and watch the improvement on a majority of our players.who would you expect improvement from?
You prefer iso-Melo?
CrushAlot wrote:I think on 1/5 the Knicks either sign Wroten or Fredette to a ten day contract. I think if they can trade Seraphin for a pick, even a second rounder, they bring up Bachynski from Westchester.
Would you rather have a 2nd round pick over Seraphin though?? He's a good big to have coming off the bench.
nixluva wrote:TPercy wrote:Just change the system and watch the improvement on a majority of our players.That's the problem tho. This system isn't about the individual, no more than the Spurs style of play is about the individual. The Spurs play a lot like the Knicks and actually use Triangle principles mixed into their offense. The Spurs play at the exact same pace as the Knicks, but they execute at a higher level consistently. When the Knicks actually execute they can perform at a high level too.
Any new player that actually has talent should be able to play well here too. The more talent they have the easier it should be to use that talent in this system. If you can shoot that won't change in this system. If you can push the ball and get to the rim that won't change in this system. If you can post up that won't change in this system. If you can pass that won't change in this system. Basically the only difference is if you are a PnR specialist and don't have much else to your game then it may hamper you. If you have a Low BBall IQ then this system may hamper you. If you lack experience and confidence then this could hamper you.
The low hanging fruit are all the D League players and Wroten who is just waiting. These are the easiest ways to try and add to the team and I would expect that to be the primary way Phil starts this process. They're cheap and usually young as well.
But as you know the Spurs have a strong core of players that have been playing in their system so long that it comes easy and when they bring in a new player with the strong core they have it makes it easier for that player to adjust and we have a bunch of new guys trying to learn our system at the same time which makes it hard for that many guys to adjust to the system.
If we decide not to make a trade for a bigger name PG that's on the trade block and just bring in Wroten or a D-League player then that's not gonna be enough for this team to really make a big enough difference for this team. If Phil's wanting to make a big enough change to put us in the playoff picture then he's gonna have to make a trade for a legit player whether that be a point guard or another position. I think we have a team that's close to being a pretty good team, not a great team or even a good team but a pretty good team and if we could add a B.Jennings or another PG that can take over the starting spot then i think we'll make a nice little run.
fishmike wrote:TPercy wrote:Just change the system and watch the improvement on a majority of our players.who would you expect improvement from?You prefer iso-Melo?
Calderon
Lopez
KOQ
KP
Grant
Galloway(if he is the PG)
Early
Melo(not affected)
If we ran a lot of PNR with these guys out there and maybe some specific Triangle sets for guys Afflalo and DWill it could work. People keep talking about how getting a new fast PG is going to have a big impact on us when he would have to change the way he plays to fit the system.
nixluva wrote:TPercy wrote:Just change the system and watch the improvement on a majority of our players.That's the problem tho. This system isn't about the individual, no more than the Spurs style of play is about the individual. The Spurs play a lot like the Knicks and actually use Triangle principles mixed into their offense. The Spurs play at the exact same pace as the Knicks, but they execute at a higher level consistently. When the Knicks actually execute they can perform at a high level too.
Any new player that actually has talent should be able to play well here too. The more talent they have the easier it should be to use that talent in this system. If you can shoot that won't change in this system. If you can push the ball and get to the rim that won't change in this system. If you can post up that won't change in this system. If you can pass that won't change in this system. Basically the only difference is if you are a PnR specialist and don't have much else to your game then it may hamper you. If you have a Low BBall IQ then this system may hamper you. If you lack experience and confidence then this could hamper you.
The low hanging fruit are all the D League players and Wroten who is just waiting. These are the easiest ways to try and add to the team and I would expect that to be the primary way Phil starts this process. They're cheap and usually young as well.
But when a system is affecting a chunk of our "individuals" mainly because of said reasons then what does that tell you?
nixluva wrote:TPercy wrote:Just change the system and watch the improvement on a majority of our players.That's the problem tho. This system isn't about the individual, no more than the Spurs style of play is about the individual. The Spurs play a lot like the Knicks and actually use Triangle principles mixed into their offense. The Spurs play at the exact same pace as the Knicks, but they execute at a higher level consistently. When the Knicks actually execute they can perform at a high level too.
Any new player that actually has talent should be able to play well here too. The more talent they have the easier it should be to use that talent in this system. If you can shoot that won't change in this system. If you can push the ball and get to the rim that won't change in this system. If you can post up that won't change in this system. If you can pass that won't change in this system. Basically the only difference is if you are a PnR specialist and don't have much else to your game then it may hamper you. If you have a Low BBall IQ then this system may hamper you. If you lack experience and confidence then this could hamper you.
The low hanging fruit are all the D League players and Wroten who is just waiting. These are the easiest ways to try and add to the team and I would expect that to be the primary way Phil starts this process. They're cheap and usually young as well.
Good post. Talent is always key to any system as you say especially if there is stability. Spurs have had the good fortune of a nucleus of great talent (Duncan, Parker, Gnobilli and of recent years Leonard) in place for years. Having that stable core leads to familiarity and coordination on both ends, a reason they are so efficient. Spurs complemented thatcore by fitting pieces like Green, Bonner etc who would not be as good on other teams. Green (like Neal before him) made his $ hitting corner threes in that system because a) he can and because b) they find him off penetration and ball movement. Knicks have no HOF center who can pass like Duncan from the high post or Diaw for that matter nor drive and dish players like Parker or Gnoblli nor several three pt shooters to take advantage of such. Im a Melo supporter and I do think he would adapt but he would not be allowed to be a ball stopper in their system. As for those calling for Grant and other youngsters to play, look at Kyle Anderson and some other talented youngsters on Spurs and how they are being groomed not rushed. Not sure we will ever be the Spurs because KP and Melo are at different career stages but I can see how Phil is taking his time to try to recreate what he had in LA and Chicago and see some similarity to the SA approach of building a team that can contend for a decade. Takes time and some luck. Time is frustrating but KP was a little luck
TPercy wrote:so you think the system is holding back KP? I would love to see you expand on this...fishmike wrote:TPercy wrote:Just change the system and watch the improvement on a majority of our players.who would you expect improvement from?You prefer iso-Melo?
Calderon
Lopez
KOQ
KP
Grant
Galloway(if he is the PG)
Early
Melo(not affected)If we ran a lot of PNR with these guys out there and maybe some specific Triangle sets for guys Afflalo and DWill it could work. People keep talking about how getting a new fast PG is going to have a big impact on us when he would have to change the way he plays to fit the system.
KOQ... right at his career avgs. KP having a rookie breakout year. Melo playing the best team ball of his career. Its like you just named random guys on the Knick roster. Will your system help the Knicks hit the open shots they are missing? And if your new system doesnt work after 30ish games can we scrap it? Honest questions....
TPercy wrote:nixluva wrote:TPercy wrote:Just change the system and watch the improvement on a majority of our players.That's the problem tho. This system isn't about the individual, no more than the Spurs style of play is about the individual. The Spurs play a lot like the Knicks and actually use Triangle principles mixed into their offense. The Spurs play at the exact same pace as the Knicks, but they execute at a higher level consistently. When the Knicks actually execute they can perform at a high level too.
Any new player that actually has talent should be able to play well here too. The more talent they have the easier it should be to use that talent in this system. If you can shoot that won't change in this system. If you can push the ball and get to the rim that won't change in this system. If you can post up that won't change in this system. If you can pass that won't change in this system. Basically the only difference is if you are a PnR specialist and don't have much else to your game then it may hamper you. If you have a Low BBall IQ then this system may hamper you. If you lack experience and confidence then this could hamper you.
The low hanging fruit are all the D League players and Wroten who is just waiting. These are the easiest ways to try and add to the team and I would expect that to be the primary way Phil starts this process. They're cheap and usually young as well.
But when a system is affecting a chunk of our "individuals" mainly because of said reasons then what does that tell you?
First of all our players are starting to adjust to the system! RoLo is getting more and more comfortable, as is Melo, LT, DWill and I could go on a on down the line with players that are starting to get the hang of the system and each other. I anticipate that we will see the team start to execute at a higher level more and more. The key is to stay in the system and allow the players to learn and grow in it and make it 2nd nature.
fishmike wrote:TPercy wrote:so you think the system is holding back KP? I would love to see you expand on this...fishmike wrote:TPercy wrote:Just change the system and watch the improvement on a majority of our players.who would you expect improvement from?You prefer iso-Melo?
Calderon
Lopez
KOQ
KP
Grant
Galloway(if he is the PG)
Early
Melo(not affected)If we ran a lot of PNR with these guys out there and maybe some specific Triangle sets for guys Afflalo and DWill it could work. People keep talking about how getting a new fast PG is going to have a big impact on us when he would have to change the way he plays to fit the system.
KOQ... right at his career avgs. KP having a rookie breakout year. Melo playing the best team ball of his career. Its like you just named random guys on the Knick roster. Will your system help the Knicks hit the open shots they are missing? And if your new system doesnt work after 30ish games can we scrap it? Honest questions....
Sorry if I have you mistaken but you seem to be confusing "setbacks" and "improvment"
I am saying that all of those guys would benefit from a more "PNR" based system or focusing more on the plays within the triangle that use it.
-Was Calderon not really good at running PnR at Dallas with Dirk?
-Wasn't Lopez benefited from running PnR in Portland because of how good he was at setting picks?
-Grant was statistically the best pick and roll guard in college
-Did you not see how much free flowing our play was against Detroit(particularly 4Q) when we ran that consistently with Galloway and OQuinn? I would rather see a lot more of that than watching him hit and miss with all those long twos and horrible forced looks he has been getting in the post
-Don't you think that teaching KP(after he learns how to set picks more effectively) would get much him much better shot selection?
nixluva wrote:TPercy wrote:nixluva wrote:TPercy wrote:Just change the system and watch the improvement on a majority of our players.That's the problem tho. This system isn't about the individual, no more than the Spurs style of play is about the individual. The Spurs play a lot like the Knicks and actually use Triangle principles mixed into their offense. The Spurs play at the exact same pace as the Knicks, but they execute at a higher level consistently. When the Knicks actually execute they can perform at a high level too.
Any new player that actually has talent should be able to play well here too. The more talent they have the easier it should be to use that talent in this system. If you can shoot that won't change in this system. If you can push the ball and get to the rim that won't change in this system. If you can post up that won't change in this system. If you can pass that won't change in this system. Basically the only difference is if you are a PnR specialist and don't have much else to your game then it may hamper you. If you have a Low BBall IQ then this system may hamper you. If you lack experience and confidence then this could hamper you.
The low hanging fruit are all the D League players and Wroten who is just waiting. These are the easiest ways to try and add to the team and I would expect that to be the primary way Phil starts this process. They're cheap and usually young as well.
But when a system is affecting a chunk of our "individuals" mainly because of said reasons then what does that tell you?
First of all our players are starting to adjust to the system! RoLo is getting more and more comfortable, as is Melo, LT, DWill and I could go on a on down the line with players that are starting to get the hang of the system and each other. I anticipate that we will see the team start to execute at a higher level more and more. The key is to stay in the system and allow the players to learn and grow in it and make it 2nd nature.
Rolo is not getting more an more comfortable, he is just hitting those forced shots in the post that he is missing. He is still the same clumsy fecker.
Please go on down this "list" of yours.
nixluva wrote:TPercy wrote:Just change the system and watch the improvement on a majority of our players.That's the problem tho. This system isn't about the individual, no more than the Spurs style of play is about the individual.
A team system is supposed to fit the individuals that are there. Good team acquire good talent, then fit the system around such talent to help them all play better.
TPercy wrote:nixluva wrote:TPercy wrote:nixluva wrote:TPercy wrote:Just change the system and watch the improvement on a majority of our players.That's the problem tho. This system isn't about the individual, no more than the Spurs style of play is about the individual. The Spurs play a lot like the Knicks and actually use Triangle principles mixed into their offense. The Spurs play at the exact same pace as the Knicks, but they execute at a higher level consistently. When the Knicks actually execute they can perform at a high level too.
Any new player that actually has talent should be able to play well here too. The more talent they have the easier it should be to use that talent in this system. If you can shoot that won't change in this system. If you can push the ball and get to the rim that won't change in this system. If you can post up that won't change in this system. If you can pass that won't change in this system. Basically the only difference is if you are a PnR specialist and don't have much else to your game then it may hamper you. If you have a Low BBall IQ then this system may hamper you. If you lack experience and confidence then this could hamper you.
The low hanging fruit are all the D League players and Wroten who is just waiting. These are the easiest ways to try and add to the team and I would expect that to be the primary way Phil starts this process. They're cheap and usually young as well.
But when a system is affecting a chunk of our "individuals" mainly because of said reasons then what does that tell you?
First of all our players are starting to adjust to the system! RoLo is getting more and more comfortable, as is Melo, LT, DWill and I could go on a on down the line with players that are starting to get the hang of the system and each other. I anticipate that we will see the team start to execute at a higher level more and more. The key is to stay in the system and allow the players to learn and grow in it and make it 2nd nature.
Rolo is not getting more an more comfortable, he is just hitting those forced shots in the post that he is missing. He is still the same clumsy fecker.Please go on down this "list" of yours.
RoLo is getting more comfortable. You don't even know the F'n offense so how can you say for sure what he's supposed to be doing or not??? I really get tired of arguing with people about the offense when many don't even really know it well to begin with. People dislike it when they don't even know what they're looking at. Yes it's a completely different offense from what most of the league is running and it can look really bad if you have guys trying to learn it and if you don't really have a ton of talent to begin with. So it looks worse right now with our players but that's not a reason to bash the offense.
Learning how to think the game is actually a GOOD thing for all of our players. The longer they spend in this offense and continue to learn it they will grow as players and increase their BBall IQ. They will become better players. Learning how to play without the ball is a HUGE plus and that's what this offense keys on. Learning how to fill spaces and make cuts off a defenders overplay and make good simple passes is all good. These are all things that this offense is teaching our players. They've only been doing this for a very short time together.
Melo is really starting to understand the offense better and as he continues to play in it he'll only get better as will his teammates.
TPercy wrote:I would say Grant is the one guy I will give you... 100%. Jose gets tons of open looks and simply doesnt take them, its getting to the point where Pablo was. As for KOQ he seems to be getting it no?fishmike wrote:TPercy wrote:so you think the system is holding back KP? I would love to see you expand on this...fishmike wrote:TPercy wrote:Just change the system and watch the improvement on a majority of our players.who would you expect improvement from?You prefer iso-Melo?
Calderon
Lopez
KOQ
KP
Grant
Galloway(if he is the PG)
Early
Melo(not affected)If we ran a lot of PNR with these guys out there and maybe some specific Triangle sets for guys Afflalo and DWill it could work. People keep talking about how getting a new fast PG is going to have a big impact on us when he would have to change the way he plays to fit the system.
KOQ... right at his career avgs. KP having a rookie breakout year. Melo playing the best team ball of his career. Its like you just named random guys on the Knick roster. Will your system help the Knicks hit the open shots they are missing? And if your new system doesnt work after 30ish games can we scrap it? Honest questions....
Sorry if I have you mistaken but you seem to be confusing "setbacks" and "improvment"
I am saying that all of those guys would benefit from a more "PNR" based system or focusing more on the plays within the triangle that use it.
-Was Calderon not really good at running PnR at Dallas with Dirk?
-Wasn't Lopez benefited from running PnR in Portland because of how good he was at setting picks?
-Grant was statistically the best pick and roll guard in college
-Did you not see how much free flowing our play was against Detroit(particularly 4Q) when we ran that consistently with Galloway and OQuinn? I would rather see a lot more of that than watching him hit and miss with all those long twos and horrible forced looks he has been getting in the post
-Don't you think that teaching KP(after he learns how to set picks more effectively) would get much him much better shot selection?
Bottom line is you are 30 games into it. They (the Knicks) want to play system basketball. Fast break points arent from the system, they are from guys who run. Jose, Melo, AA, Lopez.. these are half court guys... even notice when the Knicks have a couple practices they look great?
You have to give this time. 30 games is a good measuring stick but I dont see the system as the problem. Phil has said we need some players who can get to the basket and we really dont have that right now. Most everything wrong with the system is we dont have anyone but DWill who can really get to the basket. Its not just about mid range jumpers, those are what you take when you cant attack the basket.
nixluva wrote:TPercy wrote:nixluva wrote:TPercy wrote:Just change the system and watch the improvement on a majority of our players.That's the problem tho. This system isn't about the individual, no more than the Spurs style of play is about the individual. The Spurs play a lot like the Knicks and actually use Triangle principles mixed into their offense. The Spurs play at the exact same pace as the Knicks, but they execute at a higher level consistently. When the Knicks actually execute they can perform at a high level too.
Any new player that actually has talent should be able to play well here too. The more talent they have the easier it should be to use that talent in this system. If you can shoot that won't change in this system. If you can push the ball and get to the rim that won't change in this system. If you can post up that won't change in this system. If you can pass that won't change in this system. Basically the only difference is if you are a PnR specialist and don't have much else to your game then it may hamper you. If you have a Low BBall IQ then this system may hamper you. If you lack experience and confidence then this could hamper you.
The low hanging fruit are all the D League players and Wroten who is just waiting. These are the easiest ways to try and add to the team and I would expect that to be the primary way Phil starts this process. They're cheap and usually young as well.
But when a system is affecting a chunk of our "individuals" mainly because of said reasons then what does that tell you?
First of all our players are starting to adjust to the system! RoLo is getting more and more comfortable, as is Melo, LT, DWill and I could go on a on down the line with players that are starting to get the hang of the system and each other. I anticipate that we will see the team start to execute at a higher level more and more. The key is to stay in the system and allow the players to learn and grow in it and make it 2nd nature.
Yeah Rolo has clearly been showing that he's starting to get this offense the last few games.
knickscity wrote:nixluva wrote:TPercy wrote:Just change the system and watch the improvement on a majority of our players.That's the problem tho. This system isn't about the individual, no more than the Spurs style of play is about the individual.
A team system is supposed to fit the individuals that are there. Good team acquire good talent, then fit the system around such talent to help them all play better.
OR you can have an established system and bring in players who have the talent to excel in that system. What is it about the Triangle that is so bad for player development? This is a motion offense that uses more Give n Go, Dribble Hand Off and Cuts than Screens. Yes it does limit the Dribble Drive PG who wants to be Ball Dominant, but the offense creates lanes in other ways. When players execute properly they will have prime scoring opportunities. The Knicks have been MISSING many of those scoring opps and that is really the biggest issue. They miss far too many layups and open shots. When they make those it's clear how effective the offense actually is.
Tex Winter:
Some Triple Post ThoughtsIt is not the system but the execution of the system that counts.
Systems succeed and fail based on execution of minute details of the basic fundamentals.
A complete mastery of the individual fundamentals is the first objective.
Learn to play without the ball.
Accurate passing is the key to making the offense work.
Players must be able to recognize an opportunity when it presents itself.
In transition, players must be drilled to race each other to fill the lanes.
Never Dribble when a pass is available.
pass to the man ahead as soon as he is open.
A great team has poise.
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound OffenseAn effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
2. Spacing. I am a fanatic about how players distribute themselves on the offensive end of the court. They must space themselves in a way that makes it most difficult to defend, trap, and help. Players must align a certain number of feet apart. In high school, I’d recommend 12 to 15 feet spacing, in college, 15 to18 feet, and in the NBA, 15 to 20 feet. Proper spacing not only exposes individual defensive players’ vulnerabilities, but also ensures that every time the defense tries to trap, an offensive player will be open.
3. Ball and player movements. Players must move, and must move the ball, with a purpose. Effective off-the-ball activity is much more important than most fans and players think because they’re so used to watching only the movement of the ball and the player in possession of it. But there is only one ball and there are five players, meaning most players will have the ball in their hands 20 percent or less of the time the team is in possession of the ball.
4. Options for the ball handler. The more options a smart player has to attack a defender, the more successful that offensive player will be. When teammates are all moving to positions to free themselves (or another teammate with a pick), the ball handler’s choices are vastly increased.
5. Offensive rebounding and defensive balance. On all shots we take, players must go strong for the rebound while retaining court balance and awareness to prevent the opponent’s fast break.
6. Versatile positioning. The offense must offer to any player the chance to fill any spot on the court, independent of the player’s role. All positions should be interchangeable.
7. Use individual talents. It only makes sense for an offense to allow a team to take advantage of the skill sets of its best players. This doesn’t preclude the focus on team play that is emphasized in the six other principles, but it does acknowledge that some individuals have certain types and degrees of talent, and an offense should accentuate those assets. Michael Jordan taught me this.
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
The triangle offense has proven most effective, even against such obstacles, when players commit to and execute the system. The offense hinges on players attending to minute details in executing not just plays but also the fundamentals underlying the plays. Once players have mastered the individual techniques required of their roles, we then integrate those individuals into a team. Once this is done, the foundation for a good offense is solidly in place. The team can then go on the court with the confidence and poise so essential to success.
This method of play is as old as basketball. The triangle set is adjustable to the personnel, but such adaptations can be made without altering the essence of the offense. The only necessary adjustment from one season to the next involves tailoring the series of options based on each individual’s talents.[/quote]