There are a few here who are saying that when we made our 2nd half comeback last night and Melo was playing PF that we were utilizing the side triangle. To my eyes, it looked as if we were using a simple motion set called 4 out 1 in (which many NBA teams run actions out of).
Normal Knicks triangle spacing usually has 3 out 2 in forming the strong and weak side triangles. What I saw last night was completely different with the paint completely clear for the PnR action with Melo/Lopez. What I also saw was some complete breakdowns when the PnR didn't work leading me to believe that the Knicks were not running triangle and frelancing spreading the floor from the simple 4 out 1 in set with Melo as point forward.
Opinions? Because it was very effective and I would like to see the Knicks run more actions out of the 4 out 1 in set
I have been saying it all season; Carmelo is our best PG. Sit Calderon or play him strictly as a backup SG, and suddenly we will be a much different team. Be sure to have a defensive minded guard on the floor when Calderon is playing the back up SG spot. When Carmelo needs a breather, put the ball in the hands of Gallo or Williams
crzymdups wrote:I agree - it was basically pick and roll and very effective. I would like to see more. I posted about it here and didn't get much in the way of response...http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...
Dude, I was the first to shine the light on that. Even my haters (Nalod) would back me up
In this system there are about 12 spots Tex prescribed that can be filled by players on offense. When coming down in transition you usually have 2 wings run and fill spots in the corners, center can fill paint low post, FT Line middle or FT Line extended. They can go with a single ball handler or 2 guard alignment. In essence any of these can flow right into a Side Triangle or the big can come set a Drag Screen, PnR etc.
It's all still very much in the Triangle flow but you just change up from the post feed to a PnR or Drag Screen big having your post player come out instead of fill a post spot. It's not a major departure from how they normally position themselves in the Triangle.
crzymdups wrote:I agree - it was basically pick and roll and very effective. I would like to see more. I posted about it here and didn't get much in the way of response...http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...
Sorry man, I didn't see your thread
nixluva wrote:In this system there are about 12 spots Tex prescribed that can be filled by players on offense. When coming down in transition you usually have 2 wings run and fill spots in the corners, center can fill paint low post, FT Line middle or FT Line extended. They can go with a single ball handler or 2 guard alignment. In essence any of these can flow right into a Side Triangle or the big can come set a Drag Screen, PnR etc. It's all still very much in the Triangle flow but you just change up from the post feed to a PnR or Drag Screen big having your post player come out instead of fill a post spot. It's not a major departure from how they normally position themselves in the Triangle.
I thought the floor spacing looked completely different then what the Knicks normally run (4 players out of the paint instead of 3) and the action was aggressive with the intention to score quickly instead of swinging the ball around the perimeter.
Rookie wrote:nixluva wrote:In this system there are about 12 spots Tex prescribed that can be filled by players on offense. When coming down in transition you usually have 2 wings run and fill spots in the corners, center can fill paint low post, FT Line middle or FT Line extended. They can go with a single ball handler or 2 guard alignment. In essence any of these can flow right into a Side Triangle or the big can come set a Drag Screen, PnR etc. It's all still very much in the Triangle flow but you just change up from the post feed to a PnR or Drag Screen big having your post player come out instead of fill a post spot. It's not a major departure from how they normally position themselves in the Triangle.
I thought the floor spacing looked completely different then what the Knicks normally run (4 players out of the paint instead of 3) and the action was aggressive with the intention to score quickly instead of swinging the ball around the perimeter.
Don't bother man. The reply you are going to get is:
"That is the main point of the triangle that Phil said in his books, that we should look for the quickest baskets first" or something like that.
Rookie wrote:crzymdups wrote:I agree - it was basically pick and roll and very effective. I would like to see more. I posted about it here and didn't get much in the way of response...http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...
Sorry man, I didn't see your thread
Oh no worries - was just saying, I saw it too.
TPercy wrote:Rookie wrote:nixluva wrote:In this system there are about 12 spots Tex prescribed that can be filled by players on offense. When coming down in transition you usually have 2 wings run and fill spots in the corners, center can fill paint low post, FT Line middle or FT Line extended. They can go with a single ball handler or 2 guard alignment. In essence any of these can flow right into a Side Triangle or the big can come set a Drag Screen, PnR etc. It's all still very much in the Triangle flow but you just change up from the post feed to a PnR or Drag Screen big having your post player come out instead of fill a post spot. It's not a major departure from how they normally position themselves in the Triangle.
I thought the floor spacing looked completely different then what the Knicks normally run (4 players out of the paint instead of 3) and the action was aggressive with the intention to score quickly instead of swinging the ball around the perimeter.
Don't bother man. The reply you are going to get is:
"That is the main point of the triangle that Phil said in his books, that we should look for the quickest baskets first" or something like that.
I've tried to explain this many times and all I get is snark and attitude but I really am just trying to help make it a bit clearer.
In this system there isn't just one set of spacing that they can get into and still be in the Triangle Offense. The way it works they teach the players various options for them to fill specific spots on the floor and still be able to operate within the flow of the offense.
Here's an example of one option. They start with a Side Triangle but everyone is out and all it takes is for KP to come set a pick and it looks just like what many other spread offenses look like, but it's coming out of the Triangle.
Here is another game where the Knicks ran the same set they did last night. All it really takes is for RoLo to not set up in the post but rather come out and Pick for Melo.
IT'S ALL STILL THE TRIANGLE.
nixluva wrote:
Here is another game where the Knicks ran the same set they did last night. All it really takes is for RoLo to not set up in the post but rather come out and Pick for Melo.
IT'S ALL STILL THE TRIANGLE.
It's interesting - I've seen most of every game this season, either live or in rewind. But I really think I've only seen them use the Melo / Rolo pick and roll against Detroit.
Have you seen them use it against other teams?
Triangle or not - it's an effective play and they should try it against any team they play. If it works, they should use it again and again.
You will see this set every time Washington sets up in the half court next game. Does that mean that Washington is a side triangle team, or basic basketball principals prevail
sigh. if "Marsh" melo was the PG hed be huffing and puffing after 5 mins
crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:
Here is another game where the Knicks ran the same set they did last night. All it really takes is for RoLo to not set up in the post but rather come out and Pick for Melo.
IT'S ALL STILL THE TRIANGLE.
It's interesting - I've seen most of every game this season, either live or in rewind. But I really think I've only seen them use the Melo / Rolo pick and roll against Detroit.
Have you seen them use it against other teams?
Triangle or not - it's an effective play and they should try it against any team they play. If it works, they should use it again and again.
This particular action isn't one they use a lot with MELO as the ball handler, but we may see it more. This is basically what MDA wanted MELO to do! If MELO had bought in it would've been effective with 3pt threats around him. We don't even have great 3pt shooters and it's still effective.
BTW Nix, you should post a pic of us playing in a standard triangle set for comparison, just sayin'
Rookie wrote:You will see this set every time Washington sets up in the half court next game. Does that mean that Washington is a side triangle team, or basic basketball principals prevail
You miss the point! The Triangle IS basic basketball!!!! Other teams DO use some Triangle stuff. They just don't talk about it. Coaches have been borrowing Triangle stuff for years. The Knicks are the only PURELY Triangle team.
The Triangle has its own rules which the players learn and even if the positions on the floor look similar to what other teams run, the Overall system is different. If you knew all of the rules of the system it would be much clearer how different it is.
They can flow in and out of the Side Triangle into a myriad of different looks. I can show you more of the different spots they can fill and each change brings different reads and automatics. The players learn all of these variations and in time master them. We haven't reached that level. Our players are still learning.
Rookie wrote:BTW Nix, you should post a pic of us playing in a standard triangle set for comparison, just sayin'
I've been doing that since last year!
I think what I posted above is clear enough to get the gist of what they did in the 2nd half last night. It's always an option in the Triangle. They don't always use it. There are many other looks that they use sparingly as well.
nixluva wrote:Rookie wrote:You will see this set every time Washington sets up in the half court next game. Does that mean that Washington is a side triangle team, or basic basketball principals prevail
You miss the point! The Triangle IS basic basketball!!!! Other teams DO use some Triangle stuff. They just don't talk about it. Coaches have been borrowing Triangle stuff for years. The Knicks are the only PURELY Triangle team.
The Triangle has its own rules which the players learn and even if the positions on the floor look similar to what other teams run, the Overall system is different. If you knew all of the rules of the system it would be much clearer how different it is.
They can flow in and out of the Side Triangle into a myriad of different looks. I can show you more of the different spots they can fill and each change brings different reads and automatics. The players learn all of these variations and in time master them. We haven't reached that level. Our players are still learning.
Just show me a standard Knicks set, or 3 out 2 in. Nevermind, it's almost game time. Spacing sucks
We saw it again tonight without Melo.
Any one who has ballhandling and passing skills can do it - but to be effective you need to be able to be a scoring threat.
It's actually even more lethal with Porzingis as the screen setter because unlike Lopez who can only be an effective scorer down low, KP can stop his roll at mid-range and take a shot there if left open or he can go back after the screen to the 3 point line and shoot from there. Obviously KP is great at just rolling and dunking it inside. The defense would keep guessing as to where KP is going to roll or move to after the screen.
Jose was able to see a few wide open layups this way. I think majority of the points came off KP/Jose screen/roll. So many good shots were created.
It's basically an overloaded side forming a Triangle, and the other side where the pick and roll happens. The Knicks should run this hybrid of Triangle/pick and roll much much more. It can be so effective with so many different 2 man pairs. Jose/Porzingis. Melo/KP. Melo/Lopez. Jose/Melo. Yes, even Melo setting screens would be very effective.
The point of the Triangle is to play unselfishly, to move the ball, to play as a team in sync. We'd still do that. Even moreso. Unless the Knicks get a great post up player who can be the apex of the Triangle, forget about running the Triangle successfully the way the Knicks tried to today in the 1st half (and yesterday).
nyknickzingis wrote:We saw it again tonight without Melo.
Any one who has ballhandling and passing skills can do it - but to be effective you need to be able to be a scoring threat.It's actually even more lethal with Porzingis as the screen setter because unlike Lopez who can only be an effective scorer down low, KP can stop his roll at mid-range and take a shot there if left open or he can go back after the screen to the 3 point line and shoot from there. Obviously KP is great at just rolling and dunking it inside. The defense would keep guessing as to where KP is going to roll or move to after the screen.
Jose was able to see a few wide open layups this way. I think majority of the points came off KP/Jose screen/roll. So many good shots were created.
It's basically an overloaded side forming a Triangle, and the other side where the pick and roll happens. The Knicks should run this hybrid of Triangle/pick and roll much much more. It can be so effective with so many different 2 man pairs. Jose/Porzingis. Melo/KP. Melo/Lopez. Jose/Melo. Yes, even Melo setting screens would be very effective.
The point of the Triangle is to play unselfishly, to move the ball, to play as a team in sync. We'd still do that. Even moreso. Unless the Knicks get a great post up player who can be the apex of the Triangle, forget about running the Triangle successfully the way the Knicks tried to today in the 1st half (and yesterday).
I agree that the ball handler needs to be a scoring threat for those PnR, Drag Screen plays to be most effective. Just imagine if we had a guard that could not only shoot but also be a threat to get all the way to the hoop and finish! In a small way this is kind of what Shved was able to do. In that 2 man game he was killing teams and he's not even a great player!!! I think Phil thought he was gonna be able to get some of that from Jerian. He came in with even higher rookie expectation than KP. Everyone thought Jerian was more ready to contribute in his rookie season. He shows a glimpse of his ability but lacks consistency and even worse is his Jumper not being reliable yet.
It appears that Fish is gradually adjusting things which may not please most of us but it could be something we have to just deal with. They just aren't going to move rapidly to change what they do. They've had a chance to win a few of these games with just a couple of made shots at the end of these games. And this is despite not having Melo in the Thunder game or tonight. IMO they are slowly moving in the right direction in terms of how they run this system but also this team desperately needs 1 or 2 upgrades to the roster. We just don't haven quite enough quality depth.
