Knicks · The problem is the Triangle. (page 10)
crzymdups wrote:mreinman wrote:crzymdups wrote:
The problem with THIS team is the way it was constructed to run THIS Triangle. But Phil was the guy who signed every single player on the roster, so you have to think this is close to how he wants them to play - he just envisioned them being better at it.Every major player he tried to add last summer was a post guy - DeAndre Jordan, Monroe, LaMarcus Aldridge.
He didn't even talk to any guards like Rondo or anything. No point guard was ever approached.
After Afflalo, I don't think we added a single guard, did we? Oh yeah... Sasha...
DJ is not a post guy and ROLO wasn't but he turned him into one.
DeAndre came out of the meeting saying that Phil wanted him to play in the post more and that's part of why he was intrigued.
that I believe to be 100% true.
crzymdups wrote:Barkley is kinda dumb and inconsistent... BUT, players around the league listen to his opinion. This doesn't bode well for free agent signings, IMHO.Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://twitter.com/AdamZagoria/status/707230576269467649
Click here to view the Tweet
Here's my take on Barkley's comments: yeah, he's a loud mouth and off base on a lot of things, but he's spot on here. I've felt the exact same way. Totally agree -- his comments definitely don't bode well for attracting FAs. Neither do the comments made by several current NBA players speaking out against playing in the triangle (two of which are prior Knicks). Here's the big difference between these other teams' systems and ours: the casual fan wouldn't even know what these other teams are running -- it's not world news. It's not overly emphasized as something that's bigger than the players. The talent (gathering talent and then cultivating said talent--talent of all kinds mind you, not system-specific talent) supersedes whatever system they're running. The system allows for organization and simply runs in the background where it belongs.. Over here with Phil, it's a whole different ball game. His system's stressed way too much publicly, more than the players, like it's the be-all/end-all. Phil's way too narcissistic about it, to the point where it's distracting. On top of that, I don't care at all for the tunnel vision he exhibits with regard to targeting triangle-specific coaches and players to run it/feature in it (mainly talking head coach and point guard here), ignoring many good possibilities along the way. Apparently, that's how many Phil/triangle supporters feel about it too--how many times are good names brought up on this board only to have the triangle supporters crap all over the idea, saying stuff like "he's not a triangle guy" and so forth? More times than I can count...But then there are other times where Phil completely surprises you by pulling a 180 by bringing in a Derrick Williams, a Tony Wroten, targeting (but not getting) a Jeff Teague, a Dennis Schroder, talking up Shane Larkin when he first made the Chandler trade etc.--players you wouldn't think he'd be interested in at all. So that's confusing as well. What kind of team is he looking to build? Sometimes I don't even think he knows.
My advice to Phil -- check your ego at the door already. Nobody likes arrogance. Put your rings away, stop quoting your damn book, DO NOT respond to Barkley on twitter anymore, and continue concentrating on talent gathering and player development (which he's done a decent job to be fair--we just need so much more). We're still in the talent gathering phase. Keep an open mind to all possibilities, not just what you believe will work in your system or what your system needs to work. Your job is to build the best team, not the best triangle team. Real Knick fans want substance over style all day. If he concentrates on keeping an open mind on all possibilities (head coach candidates AND players), talent accumulation, and being more humble (keeping the focus on the players, not him and his prior success/his system), he'll be ok. Can he do that? I dunno--might be asking for too much even though it shouldn't be.. My 2 cents..
Finestrg wrote:crzymdups wrote:Barkley is kinda dumb and inconsistent... BUT, players around the league listen to his opinion. This doesn't bode well for free agent signings, IMHO.Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://twitter.com/AdamZagoria/status/707230576269467649
Click here to view the TweetHere's my take on Barkley's comments: yeah, he's a loud mouth and off base on a lot of things, but he's spot on here. I've felt the exact same way. Totally agree -- his comments definitely don't bode well for attracting FAs. Neither does comments made by current NBA players speaking out against playing in the triangle (two of which are prior Knicks). Here's the big difference between these other teams' systems and ours: the casual fan wouldn't even know what these other teams are running -- it's not world news. It's not overly emphasized as something that's bigger than the players. The talent (gathering talent and then cultivating said talent--talent of all kinds mind you, not system-specific talent) supersedes whatever system they're running. The system allows for organization and simply runs in the background where it belongs.. Over here with Phil, it's a whole different ball game. His system's stressed way too much publicly, more than the players, like it's the be-all/end-all. Phil's way too narcissistic about it, to the point where it's distracting. On top of that, I don't like the tunnel vision he exhibits with targeting triangle-specific coaches and players to run it/feature in it (mainly talking head coach and point guard here), ignoring many good possibilities along the way. Apparently, that's how many Phil/triangle supporters feel about it too--how many times are good names brought up on this board only to have the triangle supporters crap all over the idea, saying stuff like "he's not a triangle guy" and so forth? More times than I can count...Then at other times, Phil completely surprises you by pulling a 180 by bringing in a Derrick Williams, a Tony Wroten, targeting (but not getting) a Jeff Teague, a Dennis Schroder, talking up Shane Larkin when he first made the Chandler trade etc.--players you wouldn't think he'd be interested in at all. So that's confusing as well. What kind of team is he looking to build? Sometimes I don't even think he knows.
My advice to Phil -- check your ego at the door already. Nobody likes arrogance. Put your rings away, stop quoting your damn book, DO NOT respond to Barkley on twitter anymore, and continue concentrating on talent gathering and player development (which he's done a decent job to be fair--need much more now). We're still in the talent gathering phase. Keep an open mind to all possibilities, not just what you believe will work in your system or what your system needs to work. Your job is to build the best team, not the best triangle team. My 2 cents..
Phil needs to find someone who can modernize the Triangle. Keep the hippy dippy hand-holding stuff Phil likes and give Phil credit, but also add some wrinkles, less post play, more movement, more spacing, more pick and rolls, more 3 pt shot creation.
Give the keys to Brandon Jennings next year and add some more guard depth and see where it gets us.
It's not easy to build a team from nothing and sometimes you have to settle for certain players until you can get the ones you really want. I'm pretty sure Phil hoped Jerian would adjust quicker and take the starting job. He signed DWILL and drafted uptempo guys like Cleanthony and Thanasis. Still players have to be ready to contribute. That's why there's a developmental program being established.
Phil in his own words tells you how he views the game.
An effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
2. Spacing. I am a fanatic about how players distribute themselves on the offensive end of the court. They must space themselves in a way that makes it most difficult to defend, trap, and help. Players must align a certain number of feet apart. In high school, I’d recommend 12 to 15 feet spacing, in college, 15 to18 feet, and in the NBA, 15 to 20 feet. Proper spacing not only exposes individual defensive players’ vulnerabilities, but also ensures that every time the defense tries to trap, an offensive player will be open.
3. Ball and player movements. Players must move, and must move the ball, with a purpose. Effective off-the-ball activity is much more important than most fans and players think because they’re so used to watching only the movement of the ball and the player in possession of it. But there is only one ball and there are five players, meaning most players will have the ball in their hands 20 percent or less of the time the team is in possession of the ball.
4. Options for the ball handler. The more options a smart player has to attack a defender, the more successful that offensive player will be. When teammates are all moving to positions to free themselves (or another teammate with a pick), the ball handler’s choices are vastly increased.
5. Offensive rebounding and defensive balance. On all shots we take, players must go strong for the rebound while retaining court balance and awareness to prevent the opponent’s fast break.
6. Versatile positioning. The offense must offer to any player the chance to fill any spot on the court, independent of the player’s role. All positions should be interchangeable.
7. Use individual talents. It only makes sense for an offense to allow a team to take advantage of the skill sets of its best players. This doesn’t preclude the focus on team play that is emphasized in the six other principles, but it does acknowledge that some individuals have certain types and degrees of talent, and an offense should accentuate those assets. Michael Jordan taught me this.
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
The triangle offense has proven most effective, even against such obstacles, when players commit to and execute the system. The offense hinges on players attending to minute details in executing not just plays but also the fundamentals underlying the plays. Once players have mastered the individual techniques required of their roles, we then integrate those individuals into a team. Once this is done, the foundation for a good offense is solidly in place. The team can then go on the court with the confidence and poise so essential to success.
This method of play is as old as basketball. The triangle set is adjustable to the personnel, but such adaptations can be made without altering the essence of the offense. The only necessary adjustment from one season to the next involves tailoring the series of options based on each individual’s talents.
mreinman wrote:Chandler wrote:there's an awful lot of bellyaching about the triangle but not a lot of suggestions about what we should be doing. ANd I hope the answer isn't simply more PnR because if so I want some evidence of that ever being a championship plan. If you have two or three great players and you focus on PnR you can win games and probably end up anywhere from the dreaded 8 seed to an upper seed (Stockton and Malone having perhaps perfected it best)With the exception of 2 years of the Heat when they were totally stacked (and where there was a lot of ISO ball), most championship teams have had heavy reliance on ball and player movement. I might be missing someone but I think I have to go back to the Pistons where I can say that wasn't the case.
You want mediocre, Ok let's go back to ISO melo, and PnR and a couple of guys camped out in a corner for a drive and dish from our unicorn, elite point guard that we can't even name, let alone get
PnR in itself is not the answer. If you watch how most of the league is trending then you would see that it is very different then old school systems.
Guys like Al Jeff parking in the post and slowing down the game doesn't fly anymore. Spread spread spread, drive kick, drive kick etc ...
the triangle is not for now.
but didn't someone just post the other day about pace of the game and show that slow teams are actually doing better (GS being the huge exception)
I think if you try and follow the small, speedball you're going to have to overpay, because everyone wants those guys, and wants 3 and D
You want value when there's a salary cap. Best way to achieve that is through the draft, followed by being contrarian and finding value in players where others don't
crzymdups wrote:mreinman wrote:Chandler wrote:there's an awful lot of bellyaching about the triangle but not a lot of suggestions about what we should be doing. ANd I hope the answer isn't simply more PnR because if so I want some evidence of that ever being a championship plan. If you have two or three great players and you focus on PnR you can win games and probably end up anywhere from the dreaded 8 seed to an upper seed (Stockton and Malone having perhaps perfected it best)With the exception of 2 years of the Heat when they were totally stacked (and where there was a lot of ISO ball), most championship teams have had heavy reliance on ball and player movement. I might be missing someone but I think I have to go back to the Pistons where I can say that wasn't the case.
You want mediocre, Ok let's go back to ISO melo, and PnR and a couple of guys camped out in a corner for a drive and dish from our unicorn, elite point guard that we can't even name, let alone get
PnR in itself is not the answer. If you watch how most of the league is trending then you would see that it is very different then old school systems.
Guys like Al Jeff parking in the post and slowing down the game doesn't fly anymore. Spread spread spread, drive kick, drive kick etc ...
the triangle is not for now.
The tenets of the Triangle work in theory... but you need someone who will update it. You need constant movement - minimize post play. Maximize dribble penetration and drag screens and pick and rolls. Spread the floor so that those open jumpers you are creating are 3s, not 18-20 foot 2s. Get the right personnel to play that style.
Triangle can work - just needs to be tweaked. Needs to minimize the triple post and maximize the ball movement, the read and react and floor spacing.
There are things it gets right. But Knicks are built too slow and don't have enough great passers or shooters.
I do think they could win more games with this roster with a different system, but not that many more. But I think they could be in the playoffs race if they had used a different system for this group of players.
this has been one of my big beefs. With the Knicks, even if the ball is moving, the people aren't. They're standing around way too much
If I were the supreme ruler, I'd focus on getting a smart SG who also knows when to pass the ball. That would do a ton more for us then breaking the bank on a pg. We only need an adequate pg with good ball skills and defense.
crzymdups wrote:
The problem with THIS team is the way it was constructed to run THIS Triangle. But Phil was the guy who signed every single player on the roster, so you have to think this is close to how he wants them to play - he just envisioned them being better at it.Every major player he tried to add last summer was a post guy - DeAndre Jordan, Monroe, LaMarcus Aldridge.
He didn't even talk to any guards like Rondo or anything. No point guard was ever approached.
After Afflalo, I don't think we added a single guard, did we? Oh yeah... Sasha...
you can't really be too critical about that; do you remember what our front court looks like. J. Smith? Cole
Rome was built in more than one FA period
nixluva wrote:The Triangle is not the source of the problem. I challenge anyone to go back and look at how fast the Bulls played. I think everyone is making a HUGE mistake in assuming that Phil's vision of the Triangle is old, slow and stale! For one thing making judgements based on how it's looked with our roster is a huge mistake. It DID NOT look like this when they had MJ, Pippen, Harper and Kukoc. Not even when MJ temporarily retired did they look like the Knicks look. Those teams played fast and the Knicks will too when we upgrade the talent and develop the young players so they have the ability to execute much faster.It's not easy to build a team from nothing and sometimes you have to settle for certain players until you can get the ones you really want. I'm pretty sure Phil hoped Jerian would adjust quicker and take the starting job. He signed DWILL and drafted uptempo guys like Cleanthony and Thanasis. Still players have to be ready to contribute. That's why there's a developmental program being established.
Phil in his own words tells you how he views the game.
An effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
2. Spacing. I am a fanatic about how players distribute themselves on the offensive end of the court. They must space themselves in a way that makes it most difficult to defend, trap, and help. Players must align a certain number of feet apart. In high school, I’d recommend 12 to 15 feet spacing, in college, 15 to18 feet, and in the NBA, 15 to 20 feet. Proper spacing not only exposes individual defensive players’ vulnerabilities, but also ensures that every time the defense tries to trap, an offensive player will be open.
3. Ball and player movements. Players must move, and must move the ball, with a purpose. Effective off-the-ball activity is much more important than most fans and players think because they’re so used to watching only the movement of the ball and the player in possession of it. But there is only one ball and there are five players, meaning most players will have the ball in their hands 20 percent or less of the time the team is in possession of the ball.
4. Options for the ball handler. The more options a smart player has to attack a defender, the more successful that offensive player will be. When teammates are all moving to positions to free themselves (or another teammate with a pick), the ball handler’s choices are vastly increased.
5. Offensive rebounding and defensive balance. On all shots we take, players must go strong for the rebound while retaining court balance and awareness to prevent the opponent’s fast break.
6. Versatile positioning. The offense must offer to any player the chance to fill any spot on the court, independent of the player’s role. All positions should be interchangeable.
7. Use individual talents. It only makes sense for an offense to allow a team to take advantage of the skill sets of its best players. This doesn’t preclude the focus on team play that is emphasized in the six other principles, but it does acknowledge that some individuals have certain types and degrees of talent, and an offense should accentuate those assets. Michael Jordan taught me this.
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
The triangle offense has proven most effective, even against such obstacles, when players commit to and execute the system. The offense hinges on players attending to minute details in executing not just plays but also the fundamentals underlying the plays. Once players have mastered the individual techniques required of their roles, we then integrate those individuals into a team. Once this is done, the foundation for a good offense is solidly in place. The team can then go on the court with the confidence and poise so essential to success.
This method of play is as old as basketball. The triangle set is adjustable to the personnel, but such adaptations can be made without altering the essence of the offense. The only necessary adjustment from one season to the next involves tailoring the series of options based on each individual’s talents.
excellent post. And my point exactly. Jose doesn't penetrate, and when he does (rare) he just dribbles it back out. AA can penetrate on occasion but always shoots, or backs it in (and again shoots).
Some facilitation of the offense by one or both guards and you'll see a totally different system. We keep faulting melo but it's the lack of creativity from our guards
Chandler wrote:nixluva wrote:The Triangle is not the source of the problem. I challenge anyone to go back and look at how fast the Bulls played. I think everyone is making a HUGE mistake in assuming that Phil's vision of the Triangle is old, slow and stale! For one thing making judgements based on how it's looked with our roster is a huge mistake. It DID NOT look like this when they had MJ, Pippen, Harper and Kukoc. Not even when MJ temporarily retired did they look like the Knicks look. Those teams played fast and the Knicks will too when we upgrade the talent and develop the young players so they have the ability to execute much faster.It's not easy to build a team from nothing and sometimes you have to settle for certain players until you can get the ones you really want. I'm pretty sure Phil hoped Jerian would adjust quicker and take the starting job. He signed DWILL and drafted uptempo guys like Cleanthony and Thanasis. Still players have to be ready to contribute. That's why there's a developmental program being established.
Phil in his own words tells you how he views the game.
An effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
2. Spacing. I am a fanatic about how players distribute themselves on the offensive end of the court. They must space themselves in a way that makes it most difficult to defend, trap, and help. Players must align a certain number of feet apart. In high school, I’d recommend 12 to 15 feet spacing, in college, 15 to18 feet, and in the NBA, 15 to 20 feet. Proper spacing not only exposes individual defensive players’ vulnerabilities, but also ensures that every time the defense tries to trap, an offensive player will be open.
3. Ball and player movements. Players must move, and must move the ball, with a purpose. Effective off-the-ball activity is much more important than most fans and players think because they’re so used to watching only the movement of the ball and the player in possession of it. But there is only one ball and there are five players, meaning most players will have the ball in their hands 20 percent or less of the time the team is in possession of the ball.
4. Options for the ball handler. The more options a smart player has to attack a defender, the more successful that offensive player will be. When teammates are all moving to positions to free themselves (or another teammate with a pick), the ball handler’s choices are vastly increased.
5. Offensive rebounding and defensive balance. On all shots we take, players must go strong for the rebound while retaining court balance and awareness to prevent the opponent’s fast break.
6. Versatile positioning. The offense must offer to any player the chance to fill any spot on the court, independent of the player’s role. All positions should be interchangeable.
7. Use individual talents. It only makes sense for an offense to allow a team to take advantage of the skill sets of its best players. This doesn’t preclude the focus on team play that is emphasized in the six other principles, but it does acknowledge that some individuals have certain types and degrees of talent, and an offense should accentuate those assets. Michael Jordan taught me this.
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
The triangle offense has proven most effective, even against such obstacles, when players commit to and execute the system. The offense hinges on players attending to minute details in executing not just plays but also the fundamentals underlying the plays. Once players have mastered the individual techniques required of their roles, we then integrate those individuals into a team. Once this is done, the foundation for a good offense is solidly in place. The team can then go on the court with the confidence and poise so essential to success.
This method of play is as old as basketball. The triangle set is adjustable to the personnel, but such adaptations can be made without altering the essence of the offense. The only necessary adjustment from one season to the next involves tailoring the series of options based on each individual’s talents.
excellent post. And my point exactly. Jose doesn't penetrate, and when he does (rare) he just dribbles it back out. AA can penetrate on occasion but always shoots, or backs it in (and again shoots).Some facilitation of the offense by one or both guards and you'll see a totally different system. We keep faulting melo but it's the lack of creativity from our guards
Yes, but Phil hand picked the guards. We had almost $30M in cap room last summer and he didn't sign a single point guard. The only guard he signed was Afflalo.
If penetration is so important to Phil - why didn't he sign Shved? Or any point guard at all?
Also, re: #5 this Knicks team is terrible at preventing opponent fast breaks. Lack of team speed, but it's also bad coaching.
The Triangle doesn't HAVE to be outmoded. The way it has been instituted here and the way the roster has been constructed here is outmoded. And Phil is in charge of all of the above. He signed every single player on the roster.
crzymdups wrote:Chandler wrote:nixluva wrote:The Triangle is not the source of the problem. I challenge anyone to go back and look at how fast the Bulls played. I think everyone is making a HUGE mistake in assuming that Phil's vision of the Triangle is old, slow and stale! For one thing making judgements based on how it's looked with our roster is a huge mistake. It DID NOT look like this when they had MJ, Pippen, Harper and Kukoc. Not even when MJ temporarily retired did they look like the Knicks look. Those teams played fast and the Knicks will too when we upgrade the talent and develop the young players so they have the ability to execute much faster.It's not easy to build a team from nothing and sometimes you have to settle for certain players until you can get the ones you really want. I'm pretty sure Phil hoped Jerian would adjust quicker and take the starting job. He signed DWILL and drafted uptempo guys like Cleanthony and Thanasis. Still players have to be ready to contribute. That's why there's a developmental program being established.
Phil in his own words tells you how he views the game.
An effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
2. Spacing. I am a fanatic about how players distribute themselves on the offensive end of the court. They must space themselves in a way that makes it most difficult to defend, trap, and help. Players must align a certain number of feet apart. In high school, I’d recommend 12 to 15 feet spacing, in college, 15 to18 feet, and in the NBA, 15 to 20 feet. Proper spacing not only exposes individual defensive players’ vulnerabilities, but also ensures that every time the defense tries to trap, an offensive player will be open.
3. Ball and player movements. Players must move, and must move the ball, with a purpose. Effective off-the-ball activity is much more important than most fans and players think because they’re so used to watching only the movement of the ball and the player in possession of it. But there is only one ball and there are five players, meaning most players will have the ball in their hands 20 percent or less of the time the team is in possession of the ball.
4. Options for the ball handler. The more options a smart player has to attack a defender, the more successful that offensive player will be. When teammates are all moving to positions to free themselves (or another teammate with a pick), the ball handler’s choices are vastly increased.
5. Offensive rebounding and defensive balance. On all shots we take, players must go strong for the rebound while retaining court balance and awareness to prevent the opponent’s fast break.
6. Versatile positioning. The offense must offer to any player the chance to fill any spot on the court, independent of the player’s role. All positions should be interchangeable.
7. Use individual talents. It only makes sense for an offense to allow a team to take advantage of the skill sets of its best players. This doesn’t preclude the focus on team play that is emphasized in the six other principles, but it does acknowledge that some individuals have certain types and degrees of talent, and an offense should accentuate those assets. Michael Jordan taught me this.
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
The triangle offense has proven most effective, even against such obstacles, when players commit to and execute the system. The offense hinges on players attending to minute details in executing not just plays but also the fundamentals underlying the plays. Once players have mastered the individual techniques required of their roles, we then integrate those individuals into a team. Once this is done, the foundation for a good offense is solidly in place. The team can then go on the court with the confidence and poise so essential to success.
This method of play is as old as basketball. The triangle set is adjustable to the personnel, but such adaptations can be made without altering the essence of the offense. The only necessary adjustment from one season to the next involves tailoring the series of options based on each individual’s talents.
excellent post. And my point exactly. Jose doesn't penetrate, and when he does (rare) he just dribbles it back out. AA can penetrate on occasion but always shoots, or backs it in (and again shoots).Some facilitation of the offense by one or both guards and you'll see a totally different system. We keep faulting melo but it's the lack of creativity from our guards
Yes, but Phil hand picked the guards. We had almost $30M in cap room last summer and he didn't sign a single point guard. The only guard he signed was Afflalo.If penetration is so important to Phil - why didn't he sign Shved? Or any point guard at all?
Also, re: #5 this Knicks team is terrible at preventing opponent fast breaks. Lack of team speed, but it's also bad coaching.
The Triangle doesn't HAVE to be outmoded. The way it has been instituted here and the way the roster has been constructed here is outmoded. And Phil is in charge of all of the above. He signed every single player on the roster.
I can assure you that this is not the Roster Phil would have if it was 100% up to him, but it's not. FA's have a choice and he had to make some tough calls in the 2nd and 3rd tier FA Market. I'm telling everyone tho, that he's not stupid and he knows EXACTLY what kind of talent it takes. How can someone who's coached Jordan, Pippen, Kobe etc. not have any clue how woeful our guards are? TRUST ME... He knows. Guys like SAS, Barkley or Billups can talk all they want but Phil is trying to get this team where it needs to be and it's not a quick or easy process.
Sometimes you just have to get by with what you can get until you can do better! This is a process and IMO Phil is navigating this team in the right direction and there has been roster Progress even with this losing record.
crzymdups wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:knicks1248 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:knicks1248 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:A stop gap solution implies that he is an short term answer for a problem but his play indicates that as a starter he is a problem because his offensive play is erratic and his defense doesn't exist. Throw in the fact that he plays alongside Calderon and you have huge issues. Phil misevaluated AA and thought he was apart of a win now team but he only contributed to the lose now culture.So why didn't he give him 4 yr deal and lock him up for the rest of his career?
With a cap expected to sky rocket, what sense would it make to sign any 2nd tier player for more than 2 yrs
Point being that AA was one of the few available options for us at SG. He wanted to be a Knick, and Phil gave him a contract worth his value rather than a long term deal. Which we would have done in the past hoping that he reclaimed his Orlando production. Don't think there were any higher expectations for AA then to be a solid vet. Robin Lopez is a contract that has expectations to it not Affalo.
Im almost certain that if we were running anything but the triangle, a lot of players on this team would be having much better seasons. You can't even judge half the players on their current play, because it's foreign to almost all of them. Add in the herky jerky rotation, that pretty much sums up our record
You say this but what players are dropping off from there career numbers due the tri?
I think you can make a strong case that Afflalo and Robin Lopez and Melo are all playing well in the Triangle.
The part I don't like is that it's not good enough to win.
I said this in another thread - I like the infrastructure the Knicks have in place. I like Phil, Rambis, the Triangle - in terms of building a stable environment off the floor, in practice, in the lockerroom.I just question how the Triangle and particularly Rambis work on the floor. I think if we do keep the Triangle, we need to bring in a young wiz kid who can modernize it to include easy three point shots. I think it would be very easy to modernize the Triangle to include the three. But Phil would have to be open minded. Can he be? We shall see.
Majority of the NBA play spread offense, some teams win some teams don't. Fred Hoidberg took over the Bulls who were a 50win team last yr. He adapted them to the new NBA. There doesn't seem to be instant success there even though they are playing a more mordern style of ball. Just playing spread isn't a sure thing for success. Kings play spread and the fastest pace in the NBA. They have Rondo and Cousins and Gay. They aren't a playoff team. Toronto Cleveland and Memphis are all tied for the 2nd slowest paced team in the NBA. They are all playoff teams. Memphis has 2 lane clogging bigs. Knicks play faster and shoot more 3s then the Grizz. They play faster then Toronto but have shot 50 less 3s then Toronto.
The Lakers had Robert Horry, Rick Fox, Derek Fisher as 3 and D components around Kobe and Shaq as well as sniper Glen Rice. As well as the Fox, Devin George, Horry, Fisher, Hunter cast who all put up 2.2-5.0 attempts. The 95-96 Bulls had Toni Kukoc as a stretch 4 while Jordan and Pippen combined for 8 3s a game. Looking at Phil's lineups he maintained a balance of bigs paint packing defense and stretch forwards who shot 3s. With a mix of 3 and D guards around a playmaking G/F. We lack athleticism that those teams had offensively and defensively though.
There are many teams that play completely differently and have far worse ratings.
Teams below us that play a different style and system than us
Denver
Atlanta
Washington
Indiana
Miami
Orlando
Chicago
Milwaukee
Pheonix
Brooklyn
Lakers
76ers
Some of those teams are better - many of those teams are more talented overall.
Too much is made out about the offense and little about the defense. Knicks were one of the better defensive teams early on, and that has slipped. They're down to 20th in the league on defensive rating. That's the real key to our season. We came out with a lot of energy and ability to play defense. Then that just went away as the season wore on. Defensively, we're just not quick enough and don't force enough turnovers. This is why we need to get younger and more athletic in the backcourt. It's not just about offense even.
knicks1248 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:knicks1248 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:knicks1248 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:A stop gap solution implies that he is an short term answer for a problem but his play indicates that as a starter he is a problem because his offensive play is erratic and his defense doesn't exist. Throw in the fact that he plays alongside Calderon and you have huge issues. Phil misevaluated AA and thought he was apart of a win now team but he only contributed to the lose now culture.So why didn't he give him 4 yr deal and lock him up for the rest of his career?
With a cap expected to sky rocket, what sense would it make to sign any 2nd tier player for more than 2 yrs
Point being that AA was one of the few available options for us at SG. He wanted to be a Knick, and Phil gave him a contract worth his value rather than a long term deal. Which we would have done in the past hoping that he reclaimed his Orlando production. Don't think there were any higher expectations for AA then to be a solid vet. Robin Lopez is a contract that has expectations to it not Affalo.
Im almost certain that if we were running anything but the triangle, a lot of players on this team would be having much better seasons. You can't even judge half the players on their current play, because it's foreign to almost all of them. Add in the herky jerky rotation, that pretty much sums up our record
You say this but what players are dropping off from there career numbers due the tri?
it not so much of how they played before they got here, it's that this system hasn't made anyone better other than Lopez(and thats only after in started getting consistent minutes). Melo is having a solid all around season, but the rest of the line up is as inconsistent as i ever seen from players.
When grant and Dwill play well, we almost never lose, but how can they, when they get jerked around every other game for no reason other than to play sasha, seraphin and lance because rambust thinks they know the triangle better.
How would you respond If one game you get 21 mins, the next game 11 min, the next game you 7 min, and the very next game you don't even play.
Nothing on the face of the earth runs smoothly without consistency.
When you play a player(sasha) who has the worst shooting percentage on the roster , and does nothing remotely good, and then in the same sentence talk about trying to win ball games and make the playoffs, who the hell is going to take you serious.
None of this really speaks on the triangle system. These examples you used could simply be a tough love way of grooming players wouldn't matter what system they ran. We have seen this with many coaches over the years and none of them ran the triangle.
Lin couldn't get time over Toney Douglas, Baron Davis and Mike Bibby for a while when he was signed. It wasn't until we were getting our ass kicked by the Nets that MDA finally decided to play him just begging for a spark.
nyknickzingis wrote:Our offense rating is 18th in the league.
There are many teams that play completely differently and have far worse ratings.Teams below us that play a different style and system than us
Denver
Atlanta
Washington
Indiana
Miami
Orlando
Chicago
Milwaukee
Pheonix
Brooklyn
Lakers
76ersSome of those teams are better - many of those teams are more talented overall.
Too much is made out about the offense and little about the defense. Knicks were one of the better defensive teams early on, and that has slipped. They're down to 20th in the league on defensive rating. That's the real key to our season. We came out with a lot of energy and ability to play defense. Then that just went away as the season wore on. Defensively, we're just not quick enough and don't force enough turnovers. This is why we need to get younger and more athletic in the backcourt. It's not just about offense even.
Agreed I've been saying for a while are bigger problem is defense which is fixable fortunately and doesn't require a max to do so
Teams figured out that the best way to play us is to attack everyone off the dribble from 1-5 on the court.
Chandler wrote:The defense is 25th the offense is 16th. The guy that coaches the defense is coaching the triangle.nyknickzingis wrote:Our offense rating is 18th in the league.
There are many teams that play completely differently and have far worse ratings.Teams below us that play a different style and system than us
Denver
Atlanta
Washington
Indiana
Miami
Orlando
Chicago
Milwaukee
Pheonix
Brooklyn
Lakers
76ersSome of those teams are better - many of those teams are more talented overall.
Too much is made out about the offense and little about the defense. Knicks were one of the better defensive teams early on, and that has slipped. They're down to 20th in the league on defensive rating. That's the real key to our season. We came out with a lot of energy and ability to play defense. Then that just went away as the season wore on. Defensively, we're just not quick enough and don't force enough turnovers. This is why we need to get younger and more athletic in the backcourt. It's not just about offense even.
Agreed I've been saying for a while are bigger problem is defense which is fixable fortunately and doesn't require a max to do so
Teams figured out that the best way to play us is to attack everyone off the dribble from 1-5 on the court.
crzymdups wrote:The problem is still the Triangle.
So what's the solution?
The key is going to be improving the overall talent with more 2 Way players and hopefully younger Top Tier talent from the Draft. We need more smart, team oriented players that pass and defend!!! Some more athletic ability would be nice as well.
EnySpree wrote:crzymdups wrote:The problem is still the Triangle.So what's the solution?
Analytics. Playing a system that maximizes our talent instead of forcing it into bad shots. The last two years have been two of the worst shooting years of Melo's career. Kristaps Porzingis a 7'3" guy with a jumper like silk is shooting 43% for his career.
Our guys are getting the ball in the wrong spots to succeed.
I honestly think this exact team could be 10 games better with better shot selection. How many games have we lost by 1pt, 2pts? 3pts? What if we were taking shots that maximized our players talents? Shot from higher value areas of the floor? Shot 2% better in eFG? We'd have won those close games.
nixluva wrote:The best player on this team is still Melo at this point and there is no MJ, Pippen, Kobe or Shaq. The Triangle Offense is just a system and can't magically make up for Championship Talent. It also is doing better than the team's defense.The key is going to be improving the overall talent with more 2 Way players and hopefully younger Top Tier talent from the Draft. We need more smart, team oriented players that pass and defend!!! Some more athletic ability would be nice as well.
No, the key is to ditch the Triangle.
The problem with the team is taking too many value shots. Full stop. It is caused by an outmoded offense that was created before the three point line even existed.
crzymdups wrote:EnySpree wrote:crzymdups wrote:The problem is still the Triangle.So what's the solution?
Analytics. Playing a system that maximizes our talent instead of forcing it into bad shots. The last two years have been two of the worst shooting years of Melo's career. Kristaps Porzingis a 7'3" guy with a jumper like silk is shooting 43% for his career.
Our guys are getting the ball in the wrong spots to succeed.
I honestly think this exact team could be 10 games better with better shot selection. How many games have we lost by 1pt, 2pts? 3pts? What if we were taking shots that maximized our players talents? Shot from higher value areas of the floor? Shot 2% better in eFG? We'd have won those close games.
Knicks top shot attempts are from Melo and he lives in the midrange. Besides the issue has mainly been the lack of defense. Can't be talking about the Triangle which they largely haven't been running this year. The defense is 25th worst in the league.