Knicks · Can we fire Phil? (page 1)

I know that no one would dare bring this up and of course dolan will never fire him but perhaps it would be a good idea to push him out and get a young and more dynamic non triangle GM?

Or we can just waste another couple of years until he retires or quits.

Perhaps he will turn this around before he leaves but at this point, I think that odds are that he will fail and be outa here.

I would "trade" him to LAL but Shelly have her bro the ol' "vote of confidence" and said he has until next year which just so happens to be Phil opt out year.

http://www.chatsports.com/new-york-knick...

No No--I think Phil is a smart man--stubborn in some ways--but then again doesnt he have a right to be? Doesnt anyone believe that Phil is truly under orders here from Dolan in certain aspects--would he give Carmelo a NTC when he wanted to give Carmelo a 2 yr contract? No He was under orders to put a competitive team around Melo. Hes tried to do some things hes moved into the draft-- he got us KP and he did a really good job getting Lopez--its not his fault we have no draft pick and Im sure there was pressure to include a pick for Jeff teague from some of the other idiots like Mills.
Where Phil has gone drastically wrong is the thought process on how guards should play in the NBA today on BOTH sides of the ball--he put a lot of money into Jose Calderon and Affalo--15mm and a lot of stock into Jerian Grant as a rookie. Grant has a solid chance to become a player--I believe that. I dont like the way hes been used he needed PT in the D league. Thats why i said use him in a trade IF we can get a Teague--might as well because they simply wont tolerate the process of development here and why do fans want a wasted asset? He has not come to the understanding that its NOT 1991 anymore and you cant just clog the lane on defense with 7 footers--wont work. Defense starts on the perimeter and those who defend must be able to play at the other end--no defensive specialists in this game anymore. I think he can go back and re-calibrate some things and kind of bite into our structural flaws if he can honestly see it. Hes got to be open minded and I think he is. The problem is the 5-5 owner he still sticking his head in and every time he says anything --terrible things happen to the Knicks for years.

Yeah great idea.
Lets fire Phil and get someone who would do something magical like give Amare a super max, trade for Chandler on another super max deal, and hey while we're at it, lets trade some picks for Bargnani on another max deal. Wait, what about our own nice young draft pick and pieces like Mosgov, Gallinari? Hey lets trade him for a free agent that likely signs with us in the offseason.

So much better.

If some people had their way, Porzingis wouldn't even be a Knick. Every time one doubts Phil Jackson go watch Porzingis play and watch Lopez play this year. Those were Phil's 2 major moves this summer. You can't really take Afflalo or Jose seriously, those are guys put in as short term fill ins for when much better talent can be gotten via free agency.

If they hadn't made that idiotic Bargnani and Melo (since he was likely to sign in the offseason anyway) trade, right now Phil would have had 2 lottery picks on top of Porzingis to work with. He lost both the 2014 and 2016 draft picks, both of which will be around the 8-10 range in the lottery. Thanks to great work of the past. Instead of having say a Zack LaVine in 2014 and another top 10 lottery talent in 2016, we'll just have 2015's in Porzingis. That's how badly guys before him screwed up.

The Triangle isn't even close to the team's biggest problem. It's the lack of talent in the backcourt and Melo being paid like a franchise player to carry a team to the playoffs when he just can't physically do it all while the team has had 1 draft pick in the last 3 years.

We've seen this team add players for the longterm. Lopez, Porzingis, Galloway, Grant, and DWill even. You add some free agents in 2016 and 2017 who are both in their 20's on contracts that are worth what they bring in today's market and fit into our biggest needs (backcourt), now this team is vastly improved and far more competitive. You then add some young pieces via trading Melo, you may be able to have a completely re-build all around longterm team to work with that can make the playoffs.

I don't care what you think about the moves Phil has made, the culture he is instilling, or the system he's determined to implement. The man has the most autonomy from Dolan that we could ask for. In my eyes, that alone is reason enough to keep him.

It does worry me a bit that if not for a long shot draft pick that has played well, Phil would be taking a lot more flack right now. He missed big on trading for Calderon. DWill and Afflalo, KO, Seraphin, Sasha are not exactly making him look good as they all seem one dimensional and have played inconsistent . His choice of head coach was quite a poor one in that Fisher had no experience. Although he was turned down by his first choice in Kerr in what seemed to be a last minute turn of events. The biggest question for me is the Triangle. I know it was a system that brought much success but one can say the players running the system were probably some of the best to ever play. Also, it was a different time where more athletic small ball players were not as prevalent. Not a fan of the fact pick and rolls are not used in the triangle as much. Think we have a great pick and roll candidate in KP and Jose/Grant. Also, don't know if its the system or KP's tendency to bring him out past the three point line but feel he is there way too often for a 7'3" guy. I would want him around the basket more often. I know its more on the coach than on Phil but I have not seen enough progress in KP's low post game. Would think they would be working on this more. However, hoping he can make good personnel adjustments next year and become more flexible in the system he runs. Hopefully they don't run Melo to the ground, as it does not seem he is going anywhere, so that he has a healthier 2016/2017.

nyknickzingis wrote:Yeah great idea.
Lets fire Phil and get someone who would do something magical like give Amare a super max, trade for Chandler on another super max deal, and hey while we're at it, lets trade some picks for Bargnani on another max deal. Wait, what about our own nice young draft pick and pieces like Mosgov, Gallinari? Hey lets trade him for a free agent that likely signs with us in the offseason.

So much better.

If some people had their way, Porzingis wouldn't even be a Knick. Every time one doubts Phil Jackson go watch Porzingis play and watch Lopez play this year. Those were Phil's 2 major moves this summer. You can't really take Afflalo or Jose seriously, those are guys put in as short term fill ins for when much better talent can be gotten via free agency.

If they hadn't made that idiotic Bargnani and Melo (since he was likely to sign in the offseason anyway) trade, right now Phil would have had 2 lottery picks on top of Porzingis to work with. He lost both the 2014 and 2016 draft picks, both of which will be around the 8-10 range in the lottery. Thanks to great work of the past. Instead of having say a Zack LaVine in 2014 and another top 10 lottery talent in 2016, we'll just have 2015's in Porzingis. That's how badly guys before him screwed up.

The Triangle isn't even close to the team's biggest problem. It's the lack of talent in the backcourt and Melo being paid like a franchise player to carry a team to the playoffs when he just can't physically do it all while the team has had 1 draft pick in the last 3 years.

We've seen this team add players for the longterm. Lopez, Porzingis, Galloway, Grant, and DWill even. You add some free agents in 2016 and 2017 who are both in their 20's on contracts that are worth what they bring in today's market and fit into our biggest needs (backcourt), now this team is vastly improved and far more competitive. You then add some young pieces via trading Melo, you may be able to have a completely re-build all around longterm team to work with that can make the playoffs.

I completely agree with you. My bet is Mills Carmelo and some other management and scouts did NOT want KP. That alone makes Phil's job positive no matter the ultimate outcome. I mean we have some idiots working for the Knicks for many years. Do people really want Mills running this team with Dolan?>>>>>>???????

There have been 4 longterm Phil Jackson moves.

Melo (5 year deal, however I have to believe the major reason Dolan hired him was to keep Melo)
Porzingis (4 year deal, lotto pick)
Lopez (4 year deal, free agency).
Grant (likely 4 year investment, traded for a draft pick)
Possibly a 5th is Galloway but lets see if the Knicks sign him to how many years this summer.

The rest are all short term moves to fill in for a re-building situation and to preserve capspace while still trying to stay competitive.

There's still lots to be done, and Jackson knows this. There's only a little bit done so far (4 players I mentioned above). I give Jackson about 1.5 years more to make this a playoff team with a young nucleus. By young I don't mean KP young, but KP + 3 core guys in their 20's at least.

3yrs of Calderon is long. Also when you take on a stop gap choose carefully. Stop trying to devalue an asset by combining a negative asset with it(Chandler/Felton, Shump/Smith, O'Quinn/Jose). Why even think about pairing two terrible defensive guards together?

BRIGGS wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Yeah great idea.
Lets fire Phil and get someone who would do something magical like give Amare a super max, trade for Chandler on another super max deal, and hey while we're at it, lets trade some picks for Bargnani on another max deal. Wait, what about our own nice young draft pick and pieces like Mosgov, Gallinari? Hey lets trade him for a free agent that likely signs with us in the offseason.

So much better.

If some people had their way, Porzingis wouldn't even be a Knick. Every time one doubts Phil Jackson go watch Porzingis play and watch Lopez play this year. Those were Phil's 2 major moves this summer. You can't really take Afflalo or Jose seriously, those are guys put in as short term fill ins for when much better talent can be gotten via free agency.

If they hadn't made that idiotic Bargnani and Melo (since he was likely to sign in the offseason anyway) trade, right now Phil would have had 2 lottery picks on top of Porzingis to work with. He lost both the 2014 and 2016 draft picks, both of which will be around the 8-10 range in the lottery. Thanks to great work of the past. Instead of having say a Zack LaVine in 2014 and another top 10 lottery talent in 2016, we'll just have 2015's in Porzingis. That's how badly guys before him screwed up.

The Triangle isn't even close to the team's biggest problem. It's the lack of talent in the backcourt and Melo being paid like a franchise player to carry a team to the playoffs when he just can't physically do it all while the team has had 1 draft pick in the last 3 years.

We've seen this team add players for the longterm. Lopez, Porzingis, Galloway, Grant, and DWill even. You add some free agents in 2016 and 2017 who are both in their 20's on contracts that are worth what they bring in today's market and fit into our biggest needs (backcourt), now this team is vastly improved and far more competitive. You then add some young pieces via trading Melo, you may be able to have a completely re-build all around longterm team to work with that can make the playoffs.

I completely agree with you. My bet is Mills Carmelo and some other management and scouts did NOT want KP. That alone makes Phil's job positive no matter the ultimate outcome. I mean we have some idiots working for the Knicks for many years. Do people really want Mills running this team with Dolan?>>>>>>???????

You mean the same Mills that has a deal for Lowry or the Mills that worked out a deal for Teague a couple of years ago?

BRIGGS wrote:No No--I think Phil is a smart man--stubborn in some ways--but then again doesnt he have a right to be? Doesnt anyone believe that Phil is truly under orders here from Dolan in certain aspects--would he give Carmelo a NTC when he wanted to give Carmelo a 2 yr contract? No He was under orders to put a competitive team around Melo. Hes tried to do some things hes moved into the draft-- he got us KP and he did a really good job getting Lopez--its not his fault we have no draft pick and Im sure there was pressure to include a pick for Jeff teague from some of the other idiots like Mills.
Where Phil has gone drastically wrong is the thought process on how guards should play in the NBA today on BOTH sides of the ball--he put a lot of money into Jose Calderon and Affalo--15mm and a lot of stock into Jerian Grant as a rookie. Grant has a solid chance to become a player--I believe that. I dont like the way hes been used he needed PT in the D league. Thats why i said use him in a trade IF we can get a Teague--might as well because they simply wont tolerate the process of development here and why do fans want a wasted asset? He has not come to the understanding that its NOT 1991 anymore and you cant just clog the lane on defense with 7 footers--wont work. Defense starts on the perimeter and those who defend must be able to play at the other end--no defensive specialists in this game anymore. I think he can go back and re-calibrate some things and kind of bite into our structural flaws if he can honestly see it. Hes got to be open minded and I think he is. The problem is the 5-5 owner he still sticking his head in and every time he says anything --terrible things happen to the Knicks for years.

didn't you say that phil wanted trey lyles and just got lucky with KP?

IMO this is year one of his rebuilding process. The record isn't what we wanted but there have been some good things to come out of this so far. Now he has to have a good summer of decisions to address the team needs. The backcourt issues make things seem MUCH worse than they would be if we got anywhere near NBA level production. Compared to last summer this summer is a much clearer process due to having fewer holes to fill and having seen this roster for a season. Now we know who should stay and who needs to go.

NO.	NAME	                POS	AGE	HT	WT	2015-2016 SALARY
7	Carmelo Anthony	        SF	31	6-8	240	$22,875,000
6	Kristaps Porzingis	PF	20	7-3	240	$4,131,720
13	Jerian Grant	        PG	23	6-4	195	$1,572,360
2	Langston Galloway	SG	24	6-2	200	$845,059
23	Derrick Williams	PF	24	6-8	240	$4,000,000
8	Robin Lopez	        C	27	7-0	255	$12,650,000
42	Lance Thomas	        SF	27	6-8	235	$1,636,842
Unsure Future
11	Cleanthony Early	SF	24	6-8	210	$845,059
9	Kyle O'Quinn	        PF	25	6-10	250	$3,750,000
32	Jimmer Fredette	        PG	26	6-2	195	$874,837
Most likely Gone
4	Arron Afflalo	        SG	30	6-5	210	$8,000,000
1	Kevin Seraphin	        C	26	6-10	278	$2,814,000
18	Sasha Vujacic	        SG	31	6-7	195	$947,276
17	Lou Amundson	        PF	33	6-9	220	$1,635,476
3	Jose Calderon	        PG	34	6-3	200	$7,402,812

Time for the UK faithful to rise up...

You realize when he goes Mills will be taking over, don't you. Before Phil, it was Dolan and Mills running the team- do you really think that was better?

If we only had our pick this year. We could get someone good. Like Ben Simmons

smackeddog wrote:You realize when he goes Mills will be taking over, don't you. Before Phil, it was Dolan and Mills running the team- do you really think that was better?

Was it worse? We've gone like 40-100 the last 2 years. If KP doesn't become a superstar, then I don't think we'll be able to point to anything Phil has done and say it was better than what the previous GMs did here.

nyknickzingis wrote:There have been 4 longterm Phil Jackson moves.

Melo (5 year deal, however I have to believe the major reason Dolan hired him was to keep Melo)
Porzingis (4 year deal, lotto pick)
Lopez (4 year deal, free agency).
Grant (likely 4 year investment, traded for a draft pick)
Possibly a 5th is Galloway but lets see if the Knicks sign him to how many years this summer.

The rest are all short term moves to fill in for a re-building situation and to preserve capspace while still trying to stay competitive.

There's still lots to be done, and Jackson knows this. There's only a little bit done so far (4 players I mentioned above). I give Jackson about 1.5 years more to make this a playoff team with a young nucleus. By young I don't mean KP young, but KP + 3 core guys in their 20's at least.

You can add KOQ and his 4 year deal as well. Not good but not an expensive contract either.

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:You realize when he goes Mills will be taking over, don't you. Before Phil, it was Dolan and Mills running the team- do you really think that was better?

Was it worse? We've gone like 40-100 the last 2 years. If KP doesn't become a superstar, then I don't think we'll be able to point to anything Phil has done and say it was better than what the previous GMs did here.

No, of course the past wasn't worse. It was great!

2009-10 29-53, .354, No playoffs
2008-09 32-50, .390, No playoffs
2007-08 23-59, .280, No playoffs
2006-07 33-49, .402, No playoffs
2005-06 23-59, .280, No playoffs

Yeah, you're right on there, Bonn. Give me those other GM's any day of the week!

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:You realize when he goes Mills will be taking over, don't you. Before Phil, it was Dolan and Mills running the team- do you really think that was better?

Was it worse? We've gone like 40-100 the last 2 years. If KP doesn't become a superstar, then I don't think we'll be able to point to anything Phil has done and say it was better than what the previous GMs did here.

You do have to lose in order to draft high. In the end I have no issue with the massive losing that led to KP. You can't be complaining about the losing when it gets you a top prospect. Usually the 2 things go hand in hand.

Now we have to finish this process over the next couple of years. Once you draft a top tier young talent your clock starts from there. Took the Warriors years to build after drafting Curry. Six years later they won a title. Let's hope it doesn't take that long for the Knicks to build a title team. At least we have KP to show for the losing season last year.

jrodmc wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:You realize when he goes Mills will be taking over, don't you. Before Phil, it was Dolan and Mills running the team- do you really think that was better?

Was it worse? We've gone like 40-100 the last 2 years. If KP doesn't become a superstar, then I don't think we'll be able to point to anything Phil has done and say it was better than what the previous GMs did here.

No, of course the past wasn't worse. It was great!

2009-10 29-53, .354, No playoffs
2008-09 32-50, .390, No playoffs
2007-08 23-59, .280, No playoffs
2006-07 33-49, .402, No playoffs
2005-06 23-59, .280, No playoffs

Yeah, you're right on there, Bonn. Give me those other GM's any day of the week!

Are you sure you want to list winning percentages? Can you tell me what 40 divided by 140 is?
Note that I did not say the past was better. I asked if it was really worse. It's probably about the same. We're just an overpiced lottery team again.