Knicks · We signed Tony Wroten to 3 year contract... (page 15)

mreinman wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

blkexec wrote:Knicks fans are looking real desperate these days. 14pages on a player we grab out of the sixers trash can. Imagine what happens if we ever get a real player.

And at point guard no less!!! If we ever get a decent point guard that can last more than a season and actually grow and stick with the team...

Nah, bring on the retreads.

phil wants to go modern ... too bad the pg can't shoot a lick.

Have ok looked at his shot chart? Its modern but dumb. They should have told him to stop shooting 3s. I get preaching lay ups and 3s but some players just can't shoot.

if he cant hit a 3 at 30-32+ % then he should not shoot it.

Exactly, but I think that was more to do about coaching. I imagine they told him to keep shooting

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

blkexec wrote:Knicks fans are looking real desperate these days. 14pages on a player we grab out of the sixers trash can. Imagine what happens if we ever get a real player.

And at point guard no less!!! If we ever get a decent point guard that can last more than a season and actually grow and stick with the team...

Nah, bring on the retreads.

phil wants to go modern ... too bad the pg can't shoot a lick.

Have ok looked at his shot chart? Its modern but dumb. They should have told him to stop shooting 3s. I get preaching lay ups and 3s but some players just can't shoot.

if he cant hit a 3 at 30-32+ % then he should not shoot it.

Exactly, but I think that was more to do about coaching. I imagine they told him to keep shooting

thats because of the tank.

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

blkexec wrote:Knicks fans are looking real desperate these days. 14pages on a player we grab out of the sixers trash can. Imagine what happens if we ever get a real player.

And at point guard no less!!! If we ever get a decent point guard that can last more than a season and actually grow and stick with the team...

Nah, bring on the retreads.

phil wants to go modern ... too bad the pg can't shoot a lick.

Have ok looked at his shot chart? Its modern but dumb. They should have told him to stop shooting 3s. I get preaching lay ups and 3s but some players just can't shoot.

if he cant hit a 3 at 30-32+ % then he should not shoot it.

Exactly, but I think that was more to do about coaching. I imagine they told him to keep shooting

Seems to me that Wroten was doing the right thing if he was open and the 3pt shot was the one to take. We can't know that without watching game film, but to expect that a guard shouldn't take an open 3pt shot IF IT'S THE RIGHT SHOT, seems wrong to me. Many guards have been able to improve their shooting with work and I would guess there's still plenty of upside with Wroten to improve his shooting at 22-23 years old.

Part of the problem is often about taking the shot when it's there and in rhythm versus forcing shots. I can't say for sure what the deal was with Wroten. Was he taking good shots or forcing bad ones? What has he been working on all these months? Was he getting training on his weaknesses? I should hope so. I would expect that he'll certainly get more instruction and training from now on if they sign him.

nixluva wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

blkexec wrote:Knicks fans are looking real desperate these days. 14pages on a player we grab out of the sixers trash can. Imagine what happens if we ever get a real player.

And at point guard no less!!! If we ever get a decent point guard that can last more than a season and actually grow and stick with the team...

Nah, bring on the retreads.

phil wants to go modern ... too bad the pg can't shoot a lick.

Have ok looked at his shot chart? Its modern but dumb. They should have told him to stop shooting 3s. I get preaching lay ups and 3s but some players just can't shoot.

if he cant hit a 3 at 30-32+ % then he should not shoot it.

Exactly, but I think that was more to do about coaching. I imagine they told him to keep shooting

Seems to me that Wroten was doing the right thing if he was open and the 3pt shot was the one to take. We can't know that without watching game film, but to expect that a guard shouldn't take an open 3pt shot IF IT'S THE RIGHT SHOT, seems wrong to me. Many guards have been able to improve their shooting with work and I would guess there's still plenty of upside with Wroten to improve his shooting at 22-23 years old.

Part of the problem is often about taking the shot when it's there and in rhythm versus forcing shots. I can't say for sure what the deal was with Wroten. Was he taking good shots or forcing bad ones? What has he been working on all these months? Was he getting training on his weaknesses? I should hope so. I would expect that he'll certainly get more instruction and training from now on if they sign him.

there is no such thing as a good 3 point shot if the shot chart says it isn't, and the same goes for every other shot.

mreinman wrote:

crzymdups wrote:At this point, he probably won't sign until the 14 day road trip is over...

they are worry that it will affect Sasha's play.

So if this Wroten thing stays in limbo, Sasha will keep shooting like StephCurry? Phil is a genius!

What if this thread gets to 20 pages?

mreinman wrote:

crzymdups wrote:At this point, he probably won't sign until the 14 day road trip is over...

they are worry that it will affect Sasha's play.

Malcolm wrote:

mreinman wrote:

crzymdups wrote:At this point, he probably won't sign until the 14 day road trip is over...

they are worry that it will affect Sasha's play.

Damn right (!)

CrushAlot wrote:In the interview Phil mentioned that Wroten had many medical needs and referred to him as getting a chance like Ricky Ledo.

Phil clearly wants to have a big guard with penetrating ability and defensive presence. We saw it with Shved and his taking a look at Ledo and drafting Jerian. Now Wroten. Wroten has a lot of defensive potential which is something Phil always wants. It's a very clear pattern that shows what he's looking for.

I don't see him going for broke chasing a big name PG. It's as he explained not necessary. He's had success with big Guards that can handle the ball, get to the rim and defend. The ball dominant PG isn't necessary in his view. I'm sure he'd play one if he had that guy but he's not going out of his way to find one.

nixluva wrote:I don't see him going for broke chasing a big name PG. It's as he explained not necessary. He's had success with big Guards that can handle the ball, get to the rim and defend. The ball dominant PG isn't necessary in his view.

Malcolm wrote:

nixluva wrote:I don't see him going for broke chasing a big name PG. It's as he explained not necessary. He's had success with big Guards that can handle the ball, get to the rim and defend. The ball dominant PG isn't necessary in his view.

Then . . . why aren't they trying Vujacic at PG(?)

You need that guard that can not only push the ball but take it all the way to the hoop and be a threat coming off the dribble handoff in the Pinch Post. Basically play that Kobe, MJ type role.

nixluva wrote:

Malcolm wrote:

nixluva wrote:I don't see him going for broke chasing a big name PG. It's as he explained not necessary. He's had success with big Guards that can handle the ball, get to the rim and defend. The ball dominant PG isn't necessary in his view.

Then . . . why aren't they trying Vujacic at PG(?)

Sasha has had some good performances but he's not really the long term answer. He does well when he's in there in some aspects but he's also not the threat to drive to the hoop and create something out of nothing when needed and so he's a limited guy in terms of the Prototypical big guard you'd want.

You need that guard that can not only push the ball but take it all the way to the hoop and be a threat coming off the dribble handoff in the Pinch Post. Basically play that Kobe, MJ type role.

I am sure that phil is eying some "role" players that can fit the MJ and Kobe type "role"

Heck ... wroten may just be that freakin guy?

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:In the interview Phil mentioned that Wroten had many medical needs and referred to him as getting a chance like Ricky Ledo.

Phil clearly wants to have a big guard with penetrating ability and defensive presence. We saw it with Shved and his taking a look at Ledo and drafting Jerian. Now Wroten. Wroten has a lot of defensive potential which is something Phil always wants. It's a very clear pattern that shows what he's looking for.

I don't see him going for broke chasing a big name PG. It's as he explained not necessary. He's had success with big Guards that can handle the ball, get to the rim and defend. The ball dominant PG isn't necessary in his view. I'm sure he'd play one if he had that guy but he's not going out of his way to find one.

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:In the interview Phil mentioned that Wroten had many medical needs and referred to him as getting a chance like Ricky Ledo.

Phil clearly wants to have a big guard with penetrating ability and defensive presence. We saw it with Shved and his taking a look at Ledo and drafting Jerian. Now Wroten. Wroten has a lot of defensive potential which is something Phil always wants. It's a very clear pattern that shows what he's looking for.

I don't see him going for broke chasing a big name PG. It's as he explained not necessary. He's had success with big Guards that can handle the ball, get to the rim and defend. The ball dominant PG isn't necessary in his view. I'm sure he'd play one if he had that guy but he's not going out of his way to find one.

newyorker4ever wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:In the interview Phil mentioned that Wroten had many medical needs and referred to him as getting a chance like Ricky Ledo.

Phil clearly wants to have a big guard with penetrating ability and defensive presence. We saw it with Shved and his taking a look at Ledo and drafting Jerian. Now Wroten. Wroten has a lot of defensive potential which is something Phil always wants. It's a very clear pattern that shows what he's looking for.

I don't see him going for broke chasing a big name PG. It's as he explained not necessary. He's had success with big Guards that can handle the ball, get to the rim and defend. The ball dominant PG isn't necessary in his view. I'm sure he'd play one if he had that guy but he's not going out of his way to find one.

But again, he didn't need a big name point guard only because he had MJ and Pippen and Kobe Shaq/P.Gasol and that's the only reason he didn't need one. He needs to open his damn eyes cause Melo isn't MJ or Kobe and not really even close to either of them.

All of this is overstated! As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!

Phil will be making more upgrades to the roster this summer. Hopefully we can catch a break and Wroten can end up being a useful player. As a Knick fan I'm pullin for the kid. Cheap talent is gonna be important going forward.

nixluva wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:In the interview Phil mentioned that Wroten had many medical needs and referred to him as getting a chance like Ricky Ledo.

Phil clearly wants to have a big guard with penetrating ability and defensive presence. We saw it with Shved and his taking a look at Ledo and drafting Jerian. Now Wroten. Wroten has a lot of defensive potential which is something Phil always wants. It's a very clear pattern that shows what he's looking for.

I don't see him going for broke chasing a big name PG. It's as he explained not necessary. He's had success with big Guards that can handle the ball, get to the rim and defend. The ball dominant PG isn't necessary in his view. I'm sure he'd play one if he had that guy but he's not going out of his way to find one.

But again, he didn't need a big name point guard only because he had MJ and Pippen and Kobe Shaq/P.Gasol and that's the only reason he didn't need one. He needs to open his damn eyes cause Melo isn't MJ or Kobe and not really even close to either of them.

All of this is overstated! As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!

Phil will be making more upgrades to the roster this summer. Hopefully we can catch a break and Wroten can end up being a useful player. As a Knick fan I'm pullin for the kid. Cheap talent is gonna be important going forward.

not sure you realize but none of your arguments would hold to any numbers test. They are so flawed and full of hope and wishes but they have GAPING holes.

All of this is overstated? MJ, Kobe, Shaq etc ... and you come back with "As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!" ???? really nix?

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:In the interview Phil mentioned that Wroten had many medical needs and referred to him as getting a chance like Ricky Ledo.

Phil clearly wants to have a big guard with penetrating ability and defensive presence. We saw it with Shved and his taking a look at Ledo and drafting Jerian. Now Wroten. Wroten has a lot of defensive potential which is something Phil always wants. It's a very clear pattern that shows what he's looking for.

I don't see him going for broke chasing a big name PG. It's as he explained not necessary. He's had success with big Guards that can handle the ball, get to the rim and defend. The ball dominant PG isn't necessary in his view. I'm sure he'd play one if he had that guy but he's not going out of his way to find one.

But again, he didn't need a big name point guard only because he had MJ and Pippen and Kobe Shaq/P.Gasol and that's the only reason he didn't need one. He needs to open his damn eyes cause Melo isn't MJ or Kobe and not really even close to either of them.

All of this is overstated! As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!

Phil will be making more upgrades to the roster this summer. Hopefully we can catch a break and Wroten can end up being a useful player. As a Knick fan I'm pullin for the kid. Cheap talent is gonna be important going forward.

not sure you realize but none of your arguments would hold to any numbers test. They are so flawed and full of hope and wishes but they have GAPING holes.

All of this is overstated? MJ, Kobe, Shaq etc ... and you come back with "As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!" ???? really nix?

You're jumping to Title contention. That's not what I'm talking about. We don't have to have the equivalent of Kobe/Shaq next year in order to make significant progress as a team. There are stages and this team has to go thru the stages of growth in order to get to the Title Contender stage. No one is saying we're gonna just skip to that.

That's what makes it hard to talk with you. You make any comment into a farce by skipping all the way to Title contender when we're just talking about the team getting good enough to make the playoffs first. It's the usual primary goal when building a team.

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:In the interview Phil mentioned that Wroten had many medical needs and referred to him as getting a chance like Ricky Ledo.

Phil clearly wants to have a big guard with penetrating ability and defensive presence. We saw it with Shved and his taking a look at Ledo and drafting Jerian. Now Wroten. Wroten has a lot of defensive potential which is something Phil always wants. It's a very clear pattern that shows what he's looking for.

I don't see him going for broke chasing a big name PG. It's as he explained not necessary. He's had success with big Guards that can handle the ball, get to the rim and defend. The ball dominant PG isn't necessary in his view. I'm sure he'd play one if he had that guy but he's not going out of his way to find one.

But again, he didn't need a big name point guard only because he had MJ and Pippen and Kobe Shaq/P.Gasol and that's the only reason he didn't need one. He needs to open his damn eyes cause Melo isn't MJ or Kobe and not really even close to either of them.

All of this is overstated! As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!

Phil will be making more upgrades to the roster this summer. Hopefully we can catch a break and Wroten can end up being a useful player. As a Knick fan I'm pullin for the kid. Cheap talent is gonna be important going forward.

not sure you realize but none of your arguments would hold to any numbers test. They are so flawed and full of hope and wishes but they have GAPING holes.

All of this is overstated? MJ, Kobe, Shaq etc ... and you come back with "As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!" ???? really nix?

You're jumping to Title contention. That's not what I'm talking about. We don't have to have the equivalent of Kobe/Shaq next year in order to make significant progress as a team. There are stages and this team has to go thru the stages of growth in order to get to the Title Contender stage. No one is saying we're gonna just skip to that.

That's what makes it hard to talk with you. You make any comment into a farce by skipping all the way to Title contender when we're just talking about the team getting good enough to make the playoffs first. It's the usual primary goal when building a team.

yes. And most would agree that the triangle is not the best way to get there especially with mediocre players. You are the one who keeps making this much broader than the simplistic issue at hand. Geeeez we have 15 pages and counting getting excited about Tony Wroten. How sad is that for our current state?

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:In the interview Phil mentioned that Wroten had many medical needs and referred to him as getting a chance like Ricky Ledo.

Phil clearly wants to have a big guard with penetrating ability and defensive presence. We saw it with Shved and his taking a look at Ledo and drafting Jerian. Now Wroten. Wroten has a lot of defensive potential which is something Phil always wants. It's a very clear pattern that shows what he's looking for.

I don't see him going for broke chasing a big name PG. It's as he explained not necessary. He's had success with big Guards that can handle the ball, get to the rim and defend. The ball dominant PG isn't necessary in his view. I'm sure he'd play one if he had that guy but he's not going out of his way to find one.

But again, he didn't need a big name point guard only because he had MJ and Pippen and Kobe Shaq/P.Gasol and that's the only reason he didn't need one. He needs to open his damn eyes cause Melo isn't MJ or Kobe and not really even close to either of them.

All of this is overstated! As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!

Phil will be making more upgrades to the roster this summer. Hopefully we can catch a break and Wroten can end up being a useful player. As a Knick fan I'm pullin for the kid. Cheap talent is gonna be important going forward.

not sure you realize but none of your arguments would hold to any numbers test. They are so flawed and full of hope and wishes but they have GAPING holes.

All of this is overstated? MJ, Kobe, Shaq etc ... and you come back with "As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!" ???? really nix?

You're jumping to Title contention. That's not what I'm talking about. We don't have to have the equivalent of Kobe/Shaq next year in order to make significant progress as a team. There are stages and this team has to go thru the stages of growth in order to get to the Title Contender stage. No one is saying we're gonna just skip to that.

That's what makes it hard to talk with you. You make any comment into a farce by skipping all the way to Title contender when we're just talking about the team getting good enough to make the playoffs first. It's the usual primary goal when building a team.

yes. And most would agree that the triangle is not the best way to get there especially with mediocre players. You are the one who keeps making this much broader than the simplistic issue at hand. Geeeez we have 15 pages and counting getting excited about Tony Wroten. How sad is that for our current state?

I don't think it's a bad idea to stick with the Triangle long term. The longer these players are developed in the same system the better they'll get. It would make no sense to abandon it at this point. They are making progress. They will have a huge head start next season with more players returning that know the system.

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:In the interview Phil mentioned that Wroten had many medical needs and referred to him as getting a chance like Ricky Ledo.

Phil clearly wants to have a big guard with penetrating ability and defensive presence. We saw it with Shved and his taking a look at Ledo and drafting Jerian. Now Wroten. Wroten has a lot of defensive potential which is something Phil always wants. It's a very clear pattern that shows what he's looking for.

I don't see him going for broke chasing a big name PG. It's as he explained not necessary. He's had success with big Guards that can handle the ball, get to the rim and defend. The ball dominant PG isn't necessary in his view. I'm sure he'd play one if he had that guy but he's not going out of his way to find one.

But again, he didn't need a big name point guard only because he had MJ and Pippen and Kobe Shaq/P.Gasol and that's the only reason he didn't need one. He needs to open his damn eyes cause Melo isn't MJ or Kobe and not really even close to either of them.

All of this is overstated! As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!

Phil will be making more upgrades to the roster this summer. Hopefully we can catch a break and Wroten can end up being a useful player. As a Knick fan I'm pullin for the kid. Cheap talent is gonna be important going forward.

not sure you realize but none of your arguments would hold to any numbers test. They are so flawed and full of hope and wishes but they have GAPING holes.

All of this is overstated? MJ, Kobe, Shaq etc ... and you come back with "As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!" ???? really nix?

You're jumping to Title contention. That's not what I'm talking about. We don't have to have the equivalent of Kobe/Shaq next year in order to make significant progress as a team. There are stages and this team has to go thru the stages of growth in order to get to the Title Contender stage. No one is saying we're gonna just skip to that.

That's what makes it hard to talk with you. You make any comment into a farce by skipping all the way to Title contender when we're just talking about the team getting good enough to make the playoffs first. It's the usual primary goal when building a team.

yes. And most would agree that the triangle is not the best way to get there especially with mediocre players. You are the one who keeps making this much broader than the simplistic issue at hand. Geeeez we have 15 pages and counting getting excited about Tony Wroten. How sad is that for our current state?

I don't think it's a bad idea to stick with the Triangle long term. The longer these players are developed in the same system the better they'll get. It would make no sense to abandon it at this point. They are making progress. They will have a huge head start next season with more players returning that know the system.

and therein lies the essence of our disagreement.

I think that its a terrible idea to stick to the triangle and to force our next coach to have to be a triangle guy.

I think that it will hurt us in free agency and unfortunately, phil cares about the triangle way more than he cares about the knicks.

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:In the interview Phil mentioned that Wroten had many medical needs and referred to him as getting a chance like Ricky Ledo.

Phil clearly wants to have a big guard with penetrating ability and defensive presence. We saw it with Shved and his taking a look at Ledo and drafting Jerian. Now Wroten. Wroten has a lot of defensive potential which is something Phil always wants. It's a very clear pattern that shows what he's looking for.

I don't see him going for broke chasing a big name PG. It's as he explained not necessary. He's had success with big Guards that can handle the ball, get to the rim and defend. The ball dominant PG isn't necessary in his view. I'm sure he'd play one if he had that guy but he's not going out of his way to find one.

But again, he didn't need a big name point guard only because he had MJ and Pippen and Kobe Shaq/P.Gasol and that's the only reason he didn't need one. He needs to open his damn eyes cause Melo isn't MJ or Kobe and not really even close to either of them.

All of this is overstated! As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!

Phil will be making more upgrades to the roster this summer. Hopefully we can catch a break and Wroten can end up being a useful player. As a Knick fan I'm pullin for the kid. Cheap talent is gonna be important going forward.

not sure you realize but none of your arguments would hold to any numbers test. They are so flawed and full of hope and wishes but they have GAPING holes.

All of this is overstated? MJ, Kobe, Shaq etc ... and you come back with "As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!" ???? really nix?

You're jumping to Title contention. That's not what I'm talking about. We don't have to have the equivalent of Kobe/Shaq next year in order to make significant progress as a team. There are stages and this team has to go thru the stages of growth in order to get to the Title Contender stage. No one is saying we're gonna just skip to that.

That's what makes it hard to talk with you. You make any comment into a farce by skipping all the way to Title contender when we're just talking about the team getting good enough to make the playoffs first. It's the usual primary goal when building a team.

yes. And most would agree that the triangle is not the best way to get there especially with mediocre players. You are the one who keeps making this much broader than the simplistic issue at hand. Geeeez we have 15 pages and counting getting excited about Tony Wroten. How sad is that for our current state?

I don't think it's a bad idea to stick with the Triangle long term. The longer these players are developed in the same system the better they'll get. It would make no sense to abandon it at this point. They are making progress. They will have a huge head start next season with more players returning that know the system.

and therein lies the essence of our disagreement.

I think that its a terrible idea to stick to the triangle and to force our next coach to have to be a triangle guy.

I think that it will hurt us in free agency and unfortunately, phil cares about the triangle way more than he cares about the knicks.

I disagree about Phil caring about the Triangle more than the success of the Knicks. He believes it will ultimately help the Knicks to succeed.

Free Agents that we're most likely to go after will take the money and be happy to have a job. Who are you worried about scaring off just because we run Triangle? Only ones that would care are ball dominant PG's.