mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:In the interview Phil mentioned that Wroten had many medical needs and referred to him as getting a chance like Ricky Ledo.
Phil clearly wants to have a big guard with penetrating ability and defensive presence. We saw it with Shved and his taking a look at Ledo and drafting Jerian. Now Wroten. Wroten has a lot of defensive potential which is something Phil always wants. It's a very clear pattern that shows what he's looking for.
I don't see him going for broke chasing a big name PG. It's as he explained not necessary. He's had success with big Guards that can handle the ball, get to the rim and defend. The ball dominant PG isn't necessary in his view. I'm sure he'd play one if he had that guy but he's not going out of his way to find one.
But again, he didn't need a big name point guard only because he had MJ and Pippen and Kobe Shaq/P.Gasol and that's the only reason he didn't need one. He needs to open his damn eyes cause Melo isn't MJ or Kobe and not really even close to either of them.
All of this is overstated! As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!
Phil will be making more upgrades to the roster this summer. Hopefully we can catch a break and Wroten can end up being a useful player. As a Knick fan I'm pullin for the kid. Cheap talent is gonna be important going forward.
not sure you realize but none of your arguments would hold to any numbers test. They are so flawed and full of hope and wishes but they have GAPING holes.
All of this is overstated? MJ, Kobe, Shaq etc ... and you come back with "As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!" ???? really nix?
You're jumping to Title contention. That's not what I'm talking about. We don't have to have the equivalent of Kobe/Shaq next year in order to make significant progress as a team. There are stages and this team has to go thru the stages of growth in order to get to the Title Contender stage. No one is saying we're gonna just skip to that.
That's what makes it hard to talk with you. You make any comment into a farce by skipping all the way to Title contender when we're just talking about the team getting good enough to make the playoffs first. It's the usual primary goal when building a team.
yes. And most would agree that the triangle is not the best way to get there especially with mediocre players. You are the one who keeps making this much broader than the simplistic issue at hand. Geeeez we have 15 pages and counting getting excited about Tony Wroten. How sad is that for our current state?
I don't think it's a bad idea to stick with the Triangle long term. The longer these players are developed in the same system the better they'll get. It would make no sense to abandon it at this point. They are making progress. They will have a huge head start next season with more players returning that know the system.
and therein lies the essence of our disagreement.
I think that its a terrible idea to stick to the triangle and to force our next coach to have to be a triangle guy.
I think that it will hurt us in free agency and unfortunately, phil cares about the triangle way more than he cares about the knicks.
I disagree about Phil caring about the Triangle more than the success of the Knicks. He believes it will ultimately help the Knicks to succeed.
Free Agents that we're most likely to go after will take the money and be happy to have a job. Who are you worried about scaring off just because we run Triangle? Only ones that would care are ball dominant PG's.
nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:In the interview Phil mentioned that Wroten had many medical needs and referred to him as getting a chance like Ricky Ledo.
Phil clearly wants to have a big guard with penetrating ability and defensive presence. We saw it with Shved and his taking a look at Ledo and drafting Jerian. Now Wroten. Wroten has a lot of defensive potential which is something Phil always wants. It's a very clear pattern that shows what he's looking for.
I don't see him going for broke chasing a big name PG. It's as he explained not necessary. He's had success with big Guards that can handle the ball, get to the rim and defend. The ball dominant PG isn't necessary in his view. I'm sure he'd play one if he had that guy but he's not going out of his way to find one.
But again, he didn't need a big name point guard only because he had MJ and Pippen and Kobe Shaq/P.Gasol and that's the only reason he didn't need one. He needs to open his damn eyes cause Melo isn't MJ or Kobe and not really even close to either of them.
All of this is overstated! As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!
Phil will be making more upgrades to the roster this summer. Hopefully we can catch a break and Wroten can end up being a useful player. As a Knick fan I'm pullin for the kid. Cheap talent is gonna be important going forward.
not sure you realize but none of your arguments would hold to any numbers test. They are so flawed and full of hope and wishes but they have GAPING holes.
All of this is overstated? MJ, Kobe, Shaq etc ... and you come back with "As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!" ???? really nix?
You're jumping to Title contention. That's not what I'm talking about. We don't have to have the equivalent of Kobe/Shaq next year in order to make significant progress as a team. There are stages and this team has to go thru the stages of growth in order to get to the Title Contender stage. No one is saying we're gonna just skip to that.
That's what makes it hard to talk with you. You make any comment into a farce by skipping all the way to Title contender when we're just talking about the team getting good enough to make the playoffs first. It's the usual primary goal when building a team.
yes. And most would agree that the triangle is not the best way to get there especially with mediocre players. You are the one who keeps making this much broader than the simplistic issue at hand. Geeeez we have 15 pages and counting getting excited about Tony Wroten. How sad is that for our current state?
I don't think it's a bad idea to stick with the Triangle long term. The longer these players are developed in the same system the better they'll get. It would make no sense to abandon it at this point. They are making progress. They will have a huge head start next season with more players returning that know the system.
and therein lies the essence of our disagreement.
I think that its a terrible idea to stick to the triangle and to force our next coach to have to be a triangle guy.
I think that it will hurt us in free agency and unfortunately, phil cares about the triangle way more than he cares about the knicks.
I disagree about Phil caring about the Triangle more than the success of the Knicks. He believes it will ultimately help the Knicks to succeed.
Free Agents that we're most likely to go after will take the money and be happy to have a job. Who are you worried about scaring off just because we run Triangle? Only ones that would care are ball dominant PG's.
of course he cares more about the triangle. That's obvious. The question is if he will be forced to modify his position.
and you may look at everything positively but the triangle is getting killed in the press and in no way is that a good thing. Can spin it no matter how hard you try.
mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:In the interview Phil mentioned that Wroten had many medical needs and referred to him as getting a chance like Ricky Ledo.
Phil clearly wants to have a big guard with penetrating ability and defensive presence. We saw it with Shved and his taking a look at Ledo and drafting Jerian. Now Wroten. Wroten has a lot of defensive potential which is something Phil always wants. It's a very clear pattern that shows what he's looking for.
I don't see him going for broke chasing a big name PG. It's as he explained not necessary. He's had success with big Guards that can handle the ball, get to the rim and defend. The ball dominant PG isn't necessary in his view. I'm sure he'd play one if he had that guy but he's not going out of his way to find one.
But again, he didn't need a big name point guard only because he had MJ and Pippen and Kobe Shaq/P.Gasol and that's the only reason he didn't need one. He needs to open his damn eyes cause Melo isn't MJ or Kobe and not really even close to either of them.
All of this is overstated! As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!
Phil will be making more upgrades to the roster this summer. Hopefully we can catch a break and Wroten can end up being a useful player. As a Knick fan I'm pullin for the kid. Cheap talent is gonna be important going forward.
not sure you realize but none of your arguments would hold to any numbers test. They are so flawed and full of hope and wishes but they have GAPING holes.
All of this is overstated? MJ, Kobe, Shaq etc ... and you come back with "As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!" ???? really nix?
You're jumping to Title contention. That's not what I'm talking about. We don't have to have the equivalent of Kobe/Shaq next year in order to make significant progress as a team. There are stages and this team has to go thru the stages of growth in order to get to the Title Contender stage. No one is saying we're gonna just skip to that.
That's what makes it hard to talk with you. You make any comment into a farce by skipping all the way to Title contender when we're just talking about the team getting good enough to make the playoffs first. It's the usual primary goal when building a team.
yes. And most would agree that the triangle is not the best way to get there especially with mediocre players. You are the one who keeps making this much broader than the simplistic issue at hand. Geeeez we have 15 pages and counting getting excited about Tony Wroten. How sad is that for our current state?
I don't think it's a bad idea to stick with the Triangle long term. The longer these players are developed in the same system the better they'll get. It would make no sense to abandon it at this point. They are making progress. They will have a huge head start next season with more players returning that know the system.
and therein lies the essence of our disagreement.
I think that its a terrible idea to stick to the triangle and to force our next coach to have to be a triangle guy.
I think that it will hurt us in free agency and unfortunately, phil cares about the triangle way more than he cares about the knicks.
I disagree about Phil caring about the Triangle more than the success of the Knicks. He believes it will ultimately help the Knicks to succeed.
Free Agents that we're most likely to go after will take the money and be happy to have a job. Who are you worried about scaring off just because we run Triangle? Only ones that would care are ball dominant PG's.
of course he cares more about the triangle. That's obvious. The question is if he will be forced to modify his position.
and you may look at everything positively but the triangle is getting killed in the press and in no way is that a good thing. Can spin it no matter how hard you try.
PLEASE! The media are a bunch of clowns. Most don't know a damn thing about how to win in the NBA. They just follow whoever is hot which is the easiest way to sound smart. Just front run. The fact is that this is a team build in progress. The inconsistency is unfortunately part of the process.
Sixers have been rebuilding longer than the Knicks and how is that working for them and their modern offense? The Wiz, Magic and Bucks are all down there with the Knicks. What happened to all their progress? Perhaps they should switch to the Triangle. We can point to the fact that we have the weakest Guard performance but what are those teams excuses.
As these players remain in this system they will grow in their BB IQ and Chemistry. You can see signs of this process happening even with the losing. Melo, RoLo and KP are making progress. KOQ and DWILL have been looking more comfortable. Now we need to continue to develop our young guards and upgrade the backcourt as well.
mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:In the interview Phil mentioned that Wroten had many medical needs and referred to him as getting a chance like Ricky Ledo.
Phil clearly wants to have a big guard with penetrating ability and defensive presence. We saw it with Shved and his taking a look at Ledo and drafting Jerian. Now Wroten. Wroten has a lot of defensive potential which is something Phil always wants. It's a very clear pattern that shows what he's looking for.
I don't see him going for broke chasing a big name PG. It's as he explained not necessary. He's had success with big Guards that can handle the ball, get to the rim and defend. The ball dominant PG isn't necessary in his view. I'm sure he'd play one if he had that guy but he's not going out of his way to find one.
But again, he didn't need a big name point guard only because he had MJ and Pippen and Kobe Shaq/P.Gasol and that's the only reason he didn't need one. He needs to open his damn eyes cause Melo isn't MJ or Kobe and not really even close to either of them.
All of this is overstated! As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!
Phil will be making more upgrades to the roster this summer. Hopefully we can catch a break and Wroten can end up being a useful player. As a Knick fan I'm pullin for the kid. Cheap talent is gonna be important going forward.
not sure you realize but none of your arguments would hold to any numbers test. They are so flawed and full of hope and wishes but they have GAPING holes.
All of this is overstated? MJ, Kobe, Shaq etc ... and you come back with "As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!" ???? really nix?
You're jumping to Title contention. That's not what I'm talking about. We don't have to have the equivalent of Kobe/Shaq next year in order to make significant progress as a team. There are stages and this team has to go thru the stages of growth in order to get to the Title Contender stage. No one is saying we're gonna just skip to that.
That's what makes it hard to talk with you. You make any comment into a farce by skipping all the way to Title contender when we're just talking about the team getting good enough to make the playoffs first. It's the usual primary goal when building a team.
yes. And most would agree that the triangle is not the best way to get there especially with mediocre players. You are the one who keeps making this much broader than the simplistic issue at hand. Geeeez we have 15 pages and counting getting excited about Tony Wroten. How sad is that for our current state?
I don't think it's a bad idea to stick with the Triangle long term. The longer these players are developed in the same system the better they'll get. It would make no sense to abandon it at this point. They are making progress. They will have a huge head start next season with more players returning that know the system.
and therein lies the essence of our disagreement.
I think that its a terrible idea to stick to the triangle and to force our next coach to have to be a triangle guy.
I think that it will hurt us in free agency and unfortunately, phil cares about the triangle way more than he cares about the knicks.
I disagree about Phil caring about the Triangle more than the success of the Knicks. He believes it will ultimately help the Knicks to succeed.
Free Agents that we're most likely to go after will take the money and be happy to have a job. Who are you worried about scaring off just because we run Triangle? Only ones that would care are ball dominant PG's.
of course he cares more about the triangle. That's obvious. The question is if he will be forced to modify his position.
and you may look at everything positively but the triangle is getting killed in the press and in no way is that a good thing. Can spin it no matter how hard you try.
I think he believes the triangle will lead the Knicks to success. Not sure if that will work out but I don't think Knick fans should be worried about the media. The knicks have shunned continuity to attempt to make feel good moves that hurt them in the future for years. Committing and sticking with something is not the norm in NY but is definitely something that needs to be done.
If next season is more of the same, heavy doses of the Triangle with little success, do you want to see yet another coach give it try in 2017-18 ? The only way I want to see the Triangle beyond next season is if they make the playoffs. No playoffs, no Triangle. 3 years (and 3 years of excuses) will be plenty. Will be happy if the Triangle succeeds becuase that will be one less thing this team has to be concerned about. Until the Knicks can run this system effectively, efficiently, and consistently, it will be a concern, a legitimate one.
GustavBahler wrote:If next season is more of the same, heavy doses of the Triangle with little success, do you want to see yet another coach give it try in 2017-18 ? The only way I want to see the Triangle beyond next season is if they make the playoffs. No playoffs, no Triangle. 3 years (and 3 years of excuses) will be plenty. Will be happy if the Triangle succeeds becuase that will be one less thing this team has to be concerned about. Until the Knicks can run this system effectively, efficiently, and consistently, it will be a concern, a legitimate one.
Right now as sloppy and inconsistent as they are the Knicks are the 18th most efficient offense in the NBA. It's not hard to imagine that with better performance from the backcourt that this team could easily improve in the Triangle. Despite the sometimes poor execution in the Triangle they are not the worst offensive team in the NBA.
The Knicks defense is actually worse than the offense this year. They rank 21st in defense. Again the improvements in the backcourt will heavily impact the defense IMO. It all starts with improving the backcourt. That's one of the reasons Phil is interested in Wroten. He's got size, length and quickness to defend far better than Jose or AA or even Jerian or Gallo. A lot depends on his knee health tho.
nixluva wrote:GustavBahler wrote:If next season is more of the same, heavy doses of the Triangle with little success, do you want to see yet another coach give it try in 2017-18 ? The only way I want to see the Triangle beyond next season is if they make the playoffs. No playoffs, no Triangle. 3 years (and 3 years of excuses) will be plenty. Will be happy if the Triangle succeeds becuase that will be one less thing this team has to be concerned about. Until the Knicks can run this system effectively, efficiently, and consistently, it will be a concern, a legitimate one.
Right now as sloppy and inconsistent as they are the Knicks are the 18th most efficient offense in the NBA. It's not hard to imagine that with better performance from the backcourt that this team could easily improve in the Triangle. Despite the sometimes poor execution in the Triangle they are not the worst offensive team in the NBA. The Knicks defense is actually worse than the offense this year. They rank 21st in defense. Again the improvements in the backcourt will heavily impact the defense IMO. It all starts with improving the backcourt. That's one of the reasons Phil is interested in Wroten. He's got size, length and quickness to defend far better than Jose or AA or even Jerian or Gallo. A lot depends on his knee health tho.
Middle of the pack offense with a recent scoring champion and a ROY candidate on the roster isnt exactly inspiring. Its better than being at the bottom, thats for sure. The question is would we have been better with another system? Would Grant have been able to contribute much sooner, less of a reliance on Calderon? Would there have been less of a learning curve? Who knows? We had a rookie coach.
Granted 18th rated offense is easier to build on than last. I want to see some consistency next season. Woodson was too often one dimensional in his decision making, but he kept it simple enough to get the team to play at one point with the kind of consistency we hadnt seen in more than a decade, or since.
I believe its fair to ask if its worth running this system past next season if we see more of the same? It would have been 3 years. Sure there are lots of extenuating circumstances, always are some on a team with many moving parts, but thats true of any team. At some point it has to be about the results.
GustavBahler wrote:nixluva wrote:GustavBahler wrote:If next season is more of the same, heavy doses of the Triangle with little success, do you want to see yet another coach give it try in 2017-18 ? The only way I want to see the Triangle beyond next season is if they make the playoffs. No playoffs, no Triangle. 3 years (and 3 years of excuses) will be plenty. Will be happy if the Triangle succeeds becuase that will be one less thing this team has to be concerned about. Until the Knicks can run this system effectively, efficiently, and consistently, it will be a concern, a legitimate one.
Right now as sloppy and inconsistent as they are the Knicks are the 18th most efficient offense in the NBA. It's not hard to imagine that with better performance from the backcourt that this team could easily improve in the Triangle. Despite the sometimes poor execution in the Triangle they are not the worst offensive team in the NBA. The Knicks defense is actually worse than the offense this year. They rank 21st in defense. Again the improvements in the backcourt will heavily impact the defense IMO. It all starts with improving the backcourt. That's one of the reasons Phil is interested in Wroten. He's got size, length and quickness to defend far better than Jose or AA or even Jerian or Gallo. A lot depends on his knee health tho.
Middle of the pack offense with a recent scoring champion and a ROY candidate on the roster isnt exactly inspiring. Its better than being at the bottom, thats for sure. The question is would we have been better with another system? Would Grant have been able to contribute much sooner, less of a reliance on Calderon? Would there have been less of a learning curve? Who knows? We had a rookie coach.
Granted 18th rated offense is easier to build on than last. I want to see some consistency next season. Woodson was too often one dimensional in his decision making, but he kept it simple enough to get the team to play at one point with the kind of consistency we hadnt seen in more than a decade, or since.
I believe its fair to ask if its worth running this system past next season if we see more of the same? It would have been 3 years. Sure there are lots of extenuating circumstances, always are some on a team with many moving parts, but thats true of any team. At some point it has to be about the results.
I think it's slowly coming together tho. I can see players starting to get it. Seeing the lanes and attacking better. RoLo and KP in particular are making good progress. Melo has improved his passing. Jerian is having more good moments and hopefully with another summer of work can get better still.
It as least seems clear to me that one of the big issues is that we have to rely so much on the set offense and get almost ZERO fast breaks, zero easy early offense and very little drives to the hoop. On top of that the perimeter D is weak. When the backcourt improves everything else will improve a lot.
nixluva wrote:GustavBahler wrote:nixluva wrote:GustavBahler wrote:If next season is more of the same, heavy doses of the Triangle with little success, do you want to see yet another coach give it try in 2017-18 ? The only way I want to see the Triangle beyond next season is if they make the playoffs. No playoffs, no Triangle. 3 years (and 3 years of excuses) will be plenty. Will be happy if the Triangle succeeds becuase that will be one less thing this team has to be concerned about. Until the Knicks can run this system effectively, efficiently, and consistently, it will be a concern, a legitimate one.
Right now as sloppy and inconsistent as they are the Knicks are the 18th most efficient offense in the NBA. It's not hard to imagine that with better performance from the backcourt that this team could easily improve in the Triangle. Despite the sometimes poor execution in the Triangle they are not the worst offensive team in the NBA. The Knicks defense is actually worse than the offense this year. They rank 21st in defense. Again the improvements in the backcourt will heavily impact the defense IMO. It all starts with improving the backcourt. That's one of the reasons Phil is interested in Wroten. He's got size, length and quickness to defend far better than Jose or AA or even Jerian or Gallo. A lot depends on his knee health tho.
Middle of the pack offense with a recent scoring champion and a ROY candidate on the roster isnt exactly inspiring. Its better than being at the bottom, thats for sure. The question is would we have been better with another system? Would Grant have been able to contribute much sooner, less of a reliance on Calderon? Would there have been less of a learning curve? Who knows? We had a rookie coach.
Granted 18th rated offense is easier to build on than last. I want to see some consistency next season. Woodson was too often one dimensional in his decision making, but he kept it simple enough to get the team to play at one point with the kind of consistency we hadnt seen in more than a decade, or since.
I believe its fair to ask if its worth running this system past next season if we see more of the same? It would have been 3 years. Sure there are lots of extenuating circumstances, always are some on a team with many moving parts, but thats true of any team. At some point it has to be about the results.
I think it's slowly coming together tho. I can see players starting to get it. Seeing the lanes and attacking better. RoLo and KP in particular are making good progress. Melo has improved his passing. Jerian is having more good moments and hopefully with another summer of work can get better still.It as least seems clear to me that one of the big issues is that we have to rely so much on the set offense and get almost ZERO fast breaks, zero easy early offense and very little drives to the hoop. On top of that the perimeter D is weak. When the backcourt improves everything else will improve a lot.
I would be a lot more on board with this system if I could see some consistency next season, more than a handful of win streaks. Makes it a lot easier to deal with the team's growing pains. Playoffs are a must though.
CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:In the interview Phil mentioned that Wroten had many medical needs and referred to him as getting a chance like Ricky Ledo.
Phil clearly wants to have a big guard with penetrating ability and defensive presence. We saw it with Shved and his taking a look at Ledo and drafting Jerian. Now Wroten. Wroten has a lot of defensive potential which is something Phil always wants. It's a very clear pattern that shows what he's looking for.
I don't see him going for broke chasing a big name PG. It's as he explained not necessary. He's had success with big Guards that can handle the ball, get to the rim and defend. The ball dominant PG isn't necessary in his view. I'm sure he'd play one if he had that guy but he's not going out of his way to find one.
But again, he didn't need a big name point guard only because he had MJ and Pippen and Kobe Shaq/P.Gasol and that's the only reason he didn't need one. He needs to open his damn eyes cause Melo isn't MJ or Kobe and not really even close to either of them.
All of this is overstated! As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!
Phil will be making more upgrades to the roster this summer. Hopefully we can catch a break and Wroten can end up being a useful player. As a Knick fan I'm pullin for the kid. Cheap talent is gonna be important going forward.
not sure you realize but none of your arguments would hold to any numbers test. They are so flawed and full of hope and wishes but they have GAPING holes.
All of this is overstated? MJ, Kobe, Shaq etc ... and you come back with "As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!" ???? really nix?
You're jumping to Title contention. That's not what I'm talking about. We don't have to have the equivalent of Kobe/Shaq next year in order to make significant progress as a team. There are stages and this team has to go thru the stages of growth in order to get to the Title Contender stage. No one is saying we're gonna just skip to that.
That's what makes it hard to talk with you. You make any comment into a farce by skipping all the way to Title contender when we're just talking about the team getting good enough to make the playoffs first. It's the usual primary goal when building a team.
yes. And most would agree that the triangle is not the best way to get there especially with mediocre players. You are the one who keeps making this much broader than the simplistic issue at hand. Geeeez we have 15 pages and counting getting excited about Tony Wroten. How sad is that for our current state?
I don't think it's a bad idea to stick with the Triangle long term. The longer these players are developed in the same system the better they'll get. It would make no sense to abandon it at this point. They are making progress. They will have a huge head start next season with more players returning that know the system.
and therein lies the essence of our disagreement.
I think that its a terrible idea to stick to the triangle and to force our next coach to have to be a triangle guy.
I think that it will hurt us in free agency and unfortunately, phil cares about the triangle way more than he cares about the knicks.
I disagree about Phil caring about the Triangle more than the success of the Knicks. He believes it will ultimately help the Knicks to succeed.
Free Agents that we're most likely to go after will take the money and be happy to have a job. Who are you worried about scaring off just because we run Triangle? Only ones that would care are ball dominant PG's.
of course he cares more about the triangle. That's obvious. The question is if he will be forced to modify his position.
and you may look at everything positively but the triangle is getting killed in the press and in no way is that a good thing. Can spin it no matter how hard you try.
I think he believes the triangle will lead the Knicks to success. Not sure if that will work out but I don't think Knick fans should be worried about the media. The knicks have shunned continuity to attempt to make feel good moves that hurt them in the future for years. Committing and sticking with something is not the norm in NY but is definitely something that needs to be done.
I can commit to sticking my head in the oven but that does not make it a good commitment 
nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:In the interview Phil mentioned that Wroten had many medical needs and referred to him as getting a chance like Ricky Ledo.
Phil clearly wants to have a big guard with penetrating ability and defensive presence. We saw it with Shved and his taking a look at Ledo and drafting Jerian. Now Wroten. Wroten has a lot of defensive potential which is something Phil always wants. It's a very clear pattern that shows what he's looking for.
I don't see him going for broke chasing a big name PG. It's as he explained not necessary. He's had success with big Guards that can handle the ball, get to the rim and defend. The ball dominant PG isn't necessary in his view. I'm sure he'd play one if he had that guy but he's not going out of his way to find one.
But again, he didn't need a big name point guard only because he had MJ and Pippen and Kobe Shaq/P.Gasol and that's the only reason he didn't need one. He needs to open his damn eyes cause Melo isn't MJ or Kobe and not really even close to either of them.
All of this is overstated! As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!
Phil will be making more upgrades to the roster this summer. Hopefully we can catch a break and Wroten can end up being a useful player. As a Knick fan I'm pullin for the kid. Cheap talent is gonna be important going forward.
not sure you realize but none of your arguments would hold to any numbers test. They are so flawed and full of hope and wishes but they have GAPING holes.
All of this is overstated? MJ, Kobe, Shaq etc ... and you come back with "As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!" ???? really nix?
You're jumping to Title contention. That's not what I'm talking about. We don't have to have the equivalent of Kobe/Shaq next year in order to make significant progress as a team. There are stages and this team has to go thru the stages of growth in order to get to the Title Contender stage. No one is saying we're gonna just skip to that.
That's what makes it hard to talk with you. You make any comment into a farce by skipping all the way to Title contender when we're just talking about the team getting good enough to make the playoffs first. It's the usual primary goal when building a team.
yes. And most would agree that the triangle is not the best way to get there especially with mediocre players. You are the one who keeps making this much broader than the simplistic issue at hand. Geeeez we have 15 pages and counting getting excited about Tony Wroten. How sad is that for our current state?
I don't think it's a bad idea to stick with the Triangle long term. The longer these players are developed in the same system the better they'll get. It would make no sense to abandon it at this point. They are making progress. They will have a huge head start next season with more players returning that know the system.
and therein lies the essence of our disagreement.
I think that its a terrible idea to stick to the triangle and to force our next coach to have to be a triangle guy.
I think that it will hurt us in free agency and unfortunately, phil cares about the triangle way more than he cares about the knicks.
I disagree about Phil caring about the Triangle more than the success of the Knicks. He believes it will ultimately help the Knicks to succeed.
Free Agents that we're most likely to go after will take the money and be happy to have a job. Who are you worried about scaring off just because we run Triangle? Only ones that would care are ball dominant PG's.
of course he cares more about the triangle. That's obvious. The question is if he will be forced to modify his position.
and you may look at everything positively but the triangle is getting killed in the press and in no way is that a good thing. Can spin it no matter how hard you try.
PLEASE! The media are a bunch of clowns. Most don't know a damn thing about how to win in the NBA. They just follow whoever is hot which is the easiest way to sound smart. Just front run. The fact is that this is a team build in progress. The inconsistency is unfortunately part of the process. Sixers have been rebuilding longer than the Knicks and how is that working for them and their modern offense? The Wiz, Magic and Bucks are all down there with the Knicks. What happened to all their progress? Perhaps they should switch to the Triangle. We can point to the fact that we have the weakest Guard performance but what are those teams excuses.
As these players remain in this system they will grow in their BB IQ and Chemistry. You can see signs of this process happening even with the losing. Melo, RoLo and KP are making progress. KOQ and DWILL have been looking more comfortable. Now we need to continue to develop our young guards and upgrade the backcourt as well.
at least the sixers are rebuilding and have a billion chances coming up. We have wroten! well not yet anyway ...
yeah - we are in much better shape than philly.
GustavBahler wrote:nixluva wrote:GustavBahler wrote:nixluva wrote:GustavBahler wrote:If next season is more of the same, heavy doses of the Triangle with little success, do you want to see yet another coach give it try in 2017-18 ? The only way I want to see the Triangle beyond next season is if they make the playoffs. No playoffs, no Triangle. 3 years (and 3 years of excuses) will be plenty. Will be happy if the Triangle succeeds becuase that will be one less thing this team has to be concerned about. Until the Knicks can run this system effectively, efficiently, and consistently, it will be a concern, a legitimate one.
Right now as sloppy and inconsistent as they are the Knicks are the 18th most efficient offense in the NBA. It's not hard to imagine that with better performance from the backcourt that this team could easily improve in the Triangle. Despite the sometimes poor execution in the Triangle they are not the worst offensive team in the NBA. The Knicks defense is actually worse than the offense this year. They rank 21st in defense. Again the improvements in the backcourt will heavily impact the defense IMO. It all starts with improving the backcourt. That's one of the reasons Phil is interested in Wroten. He's got size, length and quickness to defend far better than Jose or AA or even Jerian or Gallo. A lot depends on his knee health tho.
Middle of the pack offense with a recent scoring champion and a ROY candidate on the roster isnt exactly inspiring. Its better than being at the bottom, thats for sure. The question is would we have been better with another system? Would Grant have been able to contribute much sooner, less of a reliance on Calderon? Would there have been less of a learning curve? Who knows? We had a rookie coach.
Granted 18th rated offense is easier to build on than last. I want to see some consistency next season. Woodson was too often one dimensional in his decision making, but he kept it simple enough to get the team to play at one point with the kind of consistency we hadnt seen in more than a decade, or since.
I believe its fair to ask if its worth running this system past next season if we see more of the same? It would have been 3 years. Sure there are lots of extenuating circumstances, always are some on a team with many moving parts, but thats true of any team. At some point it has to be about the results.
I think it's slowly coming together tho. I can see players starting to get it. Seeing the lanes and attacking better. RoLo and KP in particular are making good progress. Melo has improved his passing. Jerian is having more good moments and hopefully with another summer of work can get better still.It as least seems clear to me that one of the big issues is that we have to rely so much on the set offense and get almost ZERO fast breaks, zero easy early offense and very little drives to the hoop. On top of that the perimeter D is weak. When the backcourt improves everything else will improve a lot.
I would be a lot more on board with this system if I could see some consistency next season, more than a handful of win streaks. Makes it a lot easier to deal with the team's growing pains. Playoffs are a must though.
I agree that this team must make the playoffs next season. This season was marred by the losing streak and falling out of the playoff race. They didn't have a very large Margin for error. IMO the key will be upgrading the backcourt and further development of our young players. This is where the bulk of the improvement will come from.
Was the deal actually finalized? Havent seen it official, and some say it's 2 years, not three...
nixluva wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:In the interview Phil mentioned that Wroten had many medical needs and referred to him as getting a chance like Ricky Ledo.
Phil clearly wants to have a big guard with penetrating ability and defensive presence. We saw it with Shved and his taking a look at Ledo and drafting Jerian. Now Wroten. Wroten has a lot of defensive potential which is something Phil always wants. It's a very clear pattern that shows what he's looking for.
I don't see him going for broke chasing a big name PG. It's as he explained not necessary. He's had success with big Guards that can handle the ball, get to the rim and defend. The ball dominant PG isn't necessary in his view. I'm sure he'd play one if he had that guy but he's not going out of his way to find one.
But again, he didn't need a big name point guard only because he had MJ and Pippen and Kobe Shaq/P.Gasol and that's the only reason he didn't need one. He needs to open his damn eyes cause Melo isn't MJ or Kobe and not really even close to either of them.
All of this is overstated! As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!
Phil will be making more upgrades to the roster this summer. Hopefully we can catch a break and Wroten can end up being a useful player. As a Knick fan I'm pullin for the kid. Cheap talent is gonna be important going forward.
If Wroten does end up playing well for us next year it will be a huge help but he'll also be looking for a new contract and will be a free agent so this could actually go wrong for us if he has a good year next year.
knickscity wrote:Was the deal actually finalized? Havent seen it official, and some say it's 2 years, not three...
Not finalized but Phil already talked about him so it seems to be already agreed on. It's likely just 2 years with only one guaranteed for the balance of the year I would guess. Probably a partial guarantee for next year.
nixluva wrote:knickscity wrote:Was the deal actually finalized? Havent seen it official, and some say it's 2 years, not three...
Not finalized but Phil already talked about him so it seems to be already agreed on. It's likely just 2 years with only one guaranteed for the balance of the year I would guess. Probably a partial guarantee for next year.
Definitely nonguaranteed. I knew I didn't see it anywhere being official. Thanks.
mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:In the interview Phil mentioned that Wroten had many medical needs and referred to him as getting a chance like Ricky Ledo.
Phil clearly wants to have a big guard with penetrating ability and defensive presence. We saw it with Shved and his taking a look at Ledo and drafting Jerian. Now Wroten. Wroten has a lot of defensive potential which is something Phil always wants. It's a very clear pattern that shows what he's looking for.
I don't see him going for broke chasing a big name PG. It's as he explained not necessary. He's had success with big Guards that can handle the ball, get to the rim and defend. The ball dominant PG isn't necessary in his view. I'm sure he'd play one if he had that guy but he's not going out of his way to find one.
But again, he didn't need a big name point guard only because he had MJ and Pippen and Kobe Shaq/P.Gasol and that's the only reason he didn't need one. He needs to open his damn eyes cause Melo isn't MJ or Kobe and not really even close to either of them.
All of this is overstated! As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!
Phil will be making more upgrades to the roster this summer. Hopefully we can catch a break and Wroten can end up being a useful player. As a Knick fan I'm pullin for the kid. Cheap talent is gonna be important going forward.
not sure you realize but none of your arguments would hold to any numbers test. They are so flawed and full of hope and wishes but they have GAPING holes.
All of this is overstated? MJ, Kobe, Shaq etc ... and you come back with "As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!" ???? really nix?
You're jumping to Title contention. That's not what I'm talking about. We don't have to have the equivalent of Kobe/Shaq next year in order to make significant progress as a team. There are stages and this team has to go thru the stages of growth in order to get to the Title Contender stage. No one is saying we're gonna just skip to that.
That's what makes it hard to talk with you. You make any comment into a farce by skipping all the way to Title contender when we're just talking about the team getting good enough to make the playoffs first. It's the usual primary goal when building a team.
yes. And most would agree that the triangle is not the best way to get there especially with mediocre players. You are the one who keeps making this much broader than the simplistic issue at hand. Geeeez we have 15 pages and counting getting excited about Tony Wroten. How sad is that for our current state?
I don't think it's a bad idea to stick with the Triangle long term. The longer these players are developed in the same system the better they'll get. It would make no sense to abandon it at this point. They are making progress. They will have a huge head start next season with more players returning that know the system.
and therein lies the essence of our disagreement.
I think that its a terrible idea to stick to the triangle and to force our next coach to have to be a triangle guy.
I think that it will hurt us in free agency and unfortunately, phil cares about the triangle way more than he cares about the knicks.
Well that's a kind of dumb thing to say. He cares about the Knicks winning using the triangle. My thing is that when Phil's gone whoever takes over even if it's S.Mills will most likely move away from the triangle unless it's Luke Walton that is brought in next year and he's showing big improvements or if it's Rambis that gets the full time gig and he's winning, but if we're not much further along than we are now then the triangle will go out the door with Phil.
newyorker4ever wrote:nixluva wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:In the interview Phil mentioned that Wroten had many medical needs and referred to him as getting a chance like Ricky Ledo.
Phil clearly wants to have a big guard with penetrating ability and defensive presence. We saw it with Shved and his taking a look at Ledo and drafting Jerian. Now Wroten. Wroten has a lot of defensive potential which is something Phil always wants. It's a very clear pattern that shows what he's looking for.
I don't see him going for broke chasing a big name PG. It's as he explained not necessary. He's had success with big Guards that can handle the ball, get to the rim and defend. The ball dominant PG isn't necessary in his view. I'm sure he'd play one if he had that guy but he's not going out of his way to find one.
But again, he didn't need a big name point guard only because he had MJ and Pippen and Kobe Shaq/P.Gasol and that's the only reason he didn't need one. He needs to open his damn eyes cause Melo isn't MJ or Kobe and not really even close to either of them.
All of this is overstated! As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!
Phil will be making more upgrades to the roster this summer. Hopefully we can catch a break and Wroten can end up being a useful player. As a Knick fan I'm pullin for the kid. Cheap talent is gonna be important going forward.
If Wroten does end up playing well for us next year it will be a huge help but he'll also be looking for a new contract and will be a free agent so this could actually go wrong for us if he has a good year next year.
I'm not that worried about that. It would be a good problem to have IMO. I want him to play so well that he's a sensation. LOL i'll worry about re-signing him after he's a big success. We are a great city to be in when the team is winning. I think we'd have a good shot at keeping him in the event he played so well that he raised his value.
newyorker4ever wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:In the interview Phil mentioned that Wroten had many medical needs and referred to him as getting a chance like Ricky Ledo.
Phil clearly wants to have a big guard with penetrating ability and defensive presence. We saw it with Shved and his taking a look at Ledo and drafting Jerian. Now Wroten. Wroten has a lot of defensive potential which is something Phil always wants. It's a very clear pattern that shows what he's looking for.
I don't see him going for broke chasing a big name PG. It's as he explained not necessary. He's had success with big Guards that can handle the ball, get to the rim and defend. The ball dominant PG isn't necessary in his view. I'm sure he'd play one if he had that guy but he's not going out of his way to find one.
But again, he didn't need a big name point guard only because he had MJ and Pippen and Kobe Shaq/P.Gasol and that's the only reason he didn't need one. He needs to open his damn eyes cause Melo isn't MJ or Kobe and not really even close to either of them.
All of this is overstated! As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!
Phil will be making more upgrades to the roster this summer. Hopefully we can catch a break and Wroten can end up being a useful player. As a Knick fan I'm pullin for the kid. Cheap talent is gonna be important going forward.
not sure you realize but none of your arguments would hold to any numbers test. They are so flawed and full of hope and wishes but they have GAPING holes.
All of this is overstated? MJ, Kobe, Shaq etc ... and you come back with "As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!" ???? really nix?
You're jumping to Title contention. That's not what I'm talking about. We don't have to have the equivalent of Kobe/Shaq next year in order to make significant progress as a team. There are stages and this team has to go thru the stages of growth in order to get to the Title Contender stage. No one is saying we're gonna just skip to that.
That's what makes it hard to talk with you. You make any comment into a farce by skipping all the way to Title contender when we're just talking about the team getting good enough to make the playoffs first. It's the usual primary goal when building a team.
yes. And most would agree that the triangle is not the best way to get there especially with mediocre players. You are the one who keeps making this much broader than the simplistic issue at hand. Geeeez we have 15 pages and counting getting excited about Tony Wroten. How sad is that for our current state?
I don't think it's a bad idea to stick with the Triangle long term. The longer these players are developed in the same system the better they'll get. It would make no sense to abandon it at this point. They are making progress. They will have a huge head start next season with more players returning that know the system.
and therein lies the essence of our disagreement.
I think that its a terrible idea to stick to the triangle and to force our next coach to have to be a triangle guy.
I think that it will hurt us in free agency and unfortunately, phil cares about the triangle way more than he cares about the knicks.
Well that's a kind of dumb thing to say. He cares about the Knicks winning using the triangle. My thing is that when Phil's gone whoever takes over even if it's S.Mills will most likely move away from the triangle unless it's Luke Walton that is brought in next year and he's showing big improvements or if it's Rambis that gets the full time gig and he's winning, but if we're not much further along than we are now then the triangle will go out the door with Phil.
IMO the only thing we need to be concerned with is upgrading the the talent on this roster. The system stuff will work itself out but the most important thing is the talent you have. After that you can quibble over the coach and system being run. If you know you have great talent and the coach or system is holding them back that's a different story.
We had decent talent and looked OK for a while actually playing above expectations but this was never a high margin for error roster. We weren't overloaded with plus talent. Things had to go right for most of the season. They had to stay healthy and execute well on a consistent basis. That didn't happen after the 20-20 mark and so the team fell off. IMO the Triangle wasn't the reason the team fell off and won't be the reason this team doesn't succeed in the future.
newyorker4ever wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:In the interview Phil mentioned that Wroten had many medical needs and referred to him as getting a chance like Ricky Ledo.
Phil clearly wants to have a big guard with penetrating ability and defensive presence. We saw it with Shved and his taking a look at Ledo and drafting Jerian. Now Wroten. Wroten has a lot of defensive potential which is something Phil always wants. It's a very clear pattern that shows what he's looking for.
I don't see him going for broke chasing a big name PG. It's as he explained not necessary. He's had success with big Guards that can handle the ball, get to the rim and defend. The ball dominant PG isn't necessary in his view. I'm sure he'd play one if he had that guy but he's not going out of his way to find one.
But again, he didn't need a big name point guard only because he had MJ and Pippen and Kobe Shaq/P.Gasol and that's the only reason he didn't need one. He needs to open his damn eyes cause Melo isn't MJ or Kobe and not really even close to either of them.
All of this is overstated! As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!
Phil will be making more upgrades to the roster this summer. Hopefully we can catch a break and Wroten can end up being a useful player. As a Knick fan I'm pullin for the kid. Cheap talent is gonna be important going forward.
not sure you realize but none of your arguments would hold to any numbers test. They are so flawed and full of hope and wishes but they have GAPING holes.
All of this is overstated? MJ, Kobe, Shaq etc ... and you come back with "As KP and others develop we'll have the needed talent it's already evident even in the losses that as our young players improve it will make a huge difference!" ???? really nix?
You're jumping to Title contention. That's not what I'm talking about. We don't have to have the equivalent of Kobe/Shaq next year in order to make significant progress as a team. There are stages and this team has to go thru the stages of growth in order to get to the Title Contender stage. No one is saying we're gonna just skip to that.
That's what makes it hard to talk with you. You make any comment into a farce by skipping all the way to Title contender when we're just talking about the team getting good enough to make the playoffs first. It's the usual primary goal when building a team.
yes. And most would agree that the triangle is not the best way to get there especially with mediocre players. You are the one who keeps making this much broader than the simplistic issue at hand. Geeeez we have 15 pages and counting getting excited about Tony Wroten. How sad is that for our current state?
I don't think it's a bad idea to stick with the Triangle long term. The longer these players are developed in the same system the better they'll get. It would make no sense to abandon it at this point. They are making progress. They will have a huge head start next season with more players returning that know the system.
and therein lies the essence of our disagreement.
I think that its a terrible idea to stick to the triangle and to force our next coach to have to be a triangle guy.
I think that it will hurt us in free agency and unfortunately, phil cares about the triangle way more than he cares about the knicks.
Well that's a kind of dumb thing to say. He cares about the Knicks winning using the triangle. My thing is that when Phil's gone whoever takes over even if it's S.Mills will most likely move away from the triangle unless it's Luke Walton that is brought in next year and he's showing big improvements or if it's Rambis that gets the full time gig and he's winning, but if we're not much further along than we are now then the triangle will go out the door with Phil.
lol that was even dumber.
I did not say that he does not care that the knicks win using the triangle. I said that he cares much more about the triangle than the knicks.
