Knicks · We signed Tony Wroten to 3 year contract... (page 18)
blkexec wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:I see Tony Wroten in the same vein as Derrick Williams was. A Phil Jackson dice roll special.Low risk, low reward. Even if he pans out, he'll be a part time rotational player with limited long term impact on the franchise. He's forever a NBDL quality player...it's who he is.
This team needs a true long term successor to the point guard position from old man Calderon. Coming off ACL surgery, cut by the Sixers, Tony Wroten is not that guy.
Agree....Wroten is hopefully not expecting to be the long term sollution. But you wouldn't think so with 17 pages. Wroten is like Lue Williams.....He's a special talent that makes plays, regardless of the system. The triangle doesn't work well with guards that over think. But if you have confidence in your abilities like Wroten and other dynamic players, you will survive in any system. Wroten is a solid bench player to have. We need as much cheap talent as possible to fill out the roster, especially if we are trying to give out another max contract. Or two players to equal max......Basically, Phil is going to spend that money and over pay for talent. Thats what most bad teams have to do. So guys like Wroten is perfect......Hungry and low cost......compared to his talent and potential impact. He has talent to be a starter, paid like the 15th man.......We need more moves like this.
with this argument, should we have seen guys like early get PT?
mreinman wrote:so these 18 pages plus the other 7 in the supplemental thread = um ... uh .... like 28 pages GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZ!
What are you gonna say when Wroten is leading breaks, dunking and throwing alleyoops to DWILL, Early and KP? You think it's really gonna be that hard for a fast and athletic guard to find some success if he pushes the ball the way he always has? What exactly is so hard about Wroten getting more easy buckets by simply using his great handles and quickness? As blkexec wrote none of what will make Wroten successful is really about the Triangle. It's just simple instinctual basketball.
nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:so these 18 pages plus the other 7 in the supplemental thread = um ... uh .... like 28 pages GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZ!What are you gonna say when Wroten is leading breaks, dunking and throwing alleyoops to DWILL, Early and KP? You think it's really gonna be that hard for a fast and athletic guard to find some success if he pushes the ball the way he always has? What exactly is so hard about Wroten getting more easy buckets by simply using his great handles and quickness? As blkexec wrote none of what will make Wroten successful is really about the Triangle. It's just simple instinctual basketball.
It should be clear that mreinman uses past performance as the best indicator of future performance. You use hope to predict the best possible future outcome. The two methods will never lead to similar expectations.
This can happen. mreinman, if this gets to 20 pages. are you super super super cool?
I wonder how long the Maurice Taylor trade thread was?
Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:so these 18 pages plus the other 7 in the supplemental thread = um ... uh .... like 28 pages GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZ!What are you gonna say when Wroten is leading breaks, dunking and throwing alleyoops to DWILL, Early and KP? You think it's really gonna be that hard for a fast and athletic guard to find some success if he pushes the ball the way he always has? What exactly is so hard about Wroten getting more easy buckets by simply using his great handles and quickness? As blkexec wrote none of what will make Wroten successful is really about the Triangle. It's just simple instinctual basketball.
It should be clear that mreinman uses past performance as the best indicator of future performance. You use hope to predict the best possible future outcome. The two methods will never lead to similar expectations.
It's not just HOPE. I use my evaluation of a player's talents and try to predict how those talents will work in a given situation. It's not a guarantee since NO ONE can guarantee anything. Just so we're clear it's the same kind of thing Phil has to do as a GM. He brings in a RoLo and imagines what he could look like in a different role in his system. RoLo is actually adding to his game and it's clear he had more ability than he was allowed to show in the past.
I was saying Shved was a good fit based on his talent and skills and lo and behold he was like a fish in water. It's not that I was just being hopeful. I just knew that he had the kind of Combo guard game that would work in the system if he embraced it and played confidently. DWILL is doing exactly what I thought he could do and I think he can do even better if he stays and continues to learn and develop his game in this system. It's a system full of cuts and motion and he's a player that excels without the ball but also can handle the ball and push the ball. Not really a feeling based on hope.
Wroten has to improve his jump shooting but pretty much every other aspect of his game fits this style. If like Shved he's aggressive and pushes the ball and cuts hard off Dribble Handoffs and Drag Screens like Shved. These are things he can do already and it's not hope.
nixluva wrote:I would say why the hell are KP and DWill in the D league?mreinman wrote:so these 18 pages plus the other 7 in the supplemental thread = um ... uh .... like 28 pages GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZ!What are you gonna say when Wroten is leading breaks, dunking and throwing alleyoops to DWILL, Early and KP? You think it's really gonna be that hard for a fast and athletic guard to find some success if he pushes the ball the way he always has? What exactly is so hard about Wroten getting more easy buckets by simply using his great handles and quickness? As blkexec wrote none of what will make Wroten successful is really about the Triangle. It's just simple instinctual basketball.
nixluva wrote:I use my evaluation of a player's talents and try to predict how those talents will work in a given situation.Sorry, but the only substantial argument for Wroten that you and I can agree on . . . is that he must have something if Phil Jackson thinks he does.
If it weren't for that . . . I don't see how I'd ever consider Wroten.
For a guard to shoot only a career 65% from the free throw line . . . is about as disqualifying a fact as I can think of for Triangle Culture.
John Paxson (PG) -- 80%
Michael Jordan (SG) -- 84%
BJ Armstrong (PG) -- 86%
Steve Kerr (PG) -- 86%
Derek Fisher (PG) -- 81%
Kobe Bryant (SG) -- 83%
Shannon Brown (SG) -- 81%
Sasha Vujacic (SG) -- 86%
I mean COME ON . . . I myself could shoot better than 65%.
It speaks of lack of discipline and commitment.
(BTW: Rajon Rondo is not an exception. Yes, he's an all-star even though he shoots a career 60% FT rate . . . but I can't see him fitting into Triangle Culture).
nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:so these 18 pages plus the other 7 in the supplemental thread = um ... uh .... like 28 pages GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZ!What are you gonna say when Wroten is leading breaks, dunking and throwing alleyoops to DWILL, Early and KP? You think it's really gonna be that hard for a fast and athletic guard to find some success if he pushes the ball the way he always has? What exactly is so hard about Wroten getting more easy buckets by simply using his great handles and quickness? As blkexec wrote none of what will make Wroten successful is really about the Triangle. It's just simple instinctual basketball.
It should be clear that mreinman uses past performance as the best indicator of future performance. You use hope to predict the best possible future outcome. The two methods will never lead to similar expectations.
It's not just HOPE. I use my evaluation of a player's talents and try to predict how those talents will work in a given situation. It's not a guarantee since NO ONE can guarantee anything. Just so we're clear it's the same kind of thing Phil has to do as a GM. He brings in a RoLo and imagines what he could look like in a different role in his system. RoLo is actually adding to his game and it's clear he had more ability than he was allowed to show in the past.I was saying Shved was a good fit based on his talent and skills and lo and behold he was like a fish in water. It's not that I was just being hopeful. I just knew that he had the kind of Combo guard game that would work in the system if he embraced it and played confidently. DWILL is doing exactly what I thought he could do and I think he can do even better if he stays and continues to learn and develop his game in this system. It's a system full of cuts and motion and he's a player that excels without the ball but also can handle the ball and push the ball. Not really a feeling based on hope.
Wroten has to improve his jump shooting but pretty much every other aspect of his game fits this style. If like Shved he's aggressive and pushes the ball and cuts hard off Dribble Handoffs and Drag Screens like Shved. These are things he can do already and it's not hope.
Predicting how his talents will work while ignoring past stats sounds like hope.
Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:so these 18 pages plus the other 7 in the supplemental thread = um ... uh .... like 28 pages GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZ!What are you gonna say when Wroten is leading breaks, dunking and throwing alleyoops to DWILL, Early and KP? You think it's really gonna be that hard for a fast and athletic guard to find some success if he pushes the ball the way he always has? What exactly is so hard about Wroten getting more easy buckets by simply using his great handles and quickness? As blkexec wrote none of what will make Wroten successful is really about the Triangle. It's just simple instinctual basketball.
It should be clear that mreinman uses past performance as the best indicator of future performance. You use hope to predict the best possible future outcome. The two methods will never lead to similar expectations.
It's not just HOPE. I use my evaluation of a player's talents and try to predict how those talents will work in a given situation. It's not a guarantee since NO ONE can guarantee anything. Just so we're clear it's the same kind of thing Phil has to do as a GM. He brings in a RoLo and imagines what he could look like in a different role in his system. RoLo is actually adding to his game and it's clear he had more ability than he was allowed to show in the past.I was saying Shved was a good fit based on his talent and skills and lo and behold he was like a fish in water. It's not that I was just being hopeful. I just knew that he had the kind of Combo guard game that would work in the system if he embraced it and played confidently. DWILL is doing exactly what I thought he could do and I think he can do even better if he stays and continues to learn and develop his game in this system. It's a system full of cuts and motion and he's a player that excels without the ball but also can handle the ball and push the ball. Not really a feeling based on hope.
Wroten has to improve his jump shooting but pretty much every other aspect of his game fits this style. If like Shved he's aggressive and pushes the ball and cuts hard off Dribble Handoffs and Drag Screens like Shved. These are things he can do already and it's not hope.
Predicting how his talents will work while ignoring past stats sounds like hope.
It's not just hope. I just explained what else goes into the evaluation but if all you and some others are gonna do is reduce the argument to simply hope then of course it's going to sound bad, but what did anyone have to really go on with Shved? Certainly not his past record. Well there was his actual talent which was a great fit for this style.
When evaluating players to play in the Triangle it's not rocket science. We know the kind of players that have a shot to excel in this style. I just pointed out above what some of those things are. We have years of examples in other players who have done well in this style of ball.
Players that can move without the ball, handle the ball on the move and pass are in particular good fits. Stand still shooters that can't dribble or move well without the ball or ball dominant players aren't really good fits since this system is really focused on moving without the ball and not pounding the air out of the ball, but rather to keep it moving.
If you get the ball you want to either shoot, drive or pass it with as little wasted time as possible. Post players that can get low position and hold it are very useful. RoLo is a good example of that. He's improved his scoring inside since coming here.
So like Shved, Wroten is a big guard that can push the ball, attack the basket and pass. Shved wasn't killing it with his jump shooting before coming to the Knicks. One thing that might help Wroten is the defined role, where he knows where his shots are coming and can get used to those spots. Most of his shots would come off Dribble Handoffs, coming around Screens and V Cuts. Hopefully the repetition will help him get the range on those shots. We already know he can push the ball and get early buckets and drive to the hoop in the half court.
nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:so these 18 pages plus the other 7 in the supplemental thread = um ... uh .... like 28 pages GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZ!What are you gonna say when Wroten is leading breaks, dunking and throwing alleyoops to DWILL, Early and KP? You think it's really gonna be that hard for a fast and athletic guard to find some success if he pushes the ball the way he always has? What exactly is so hard about Wroten getting more easy buckets by simply using his great handles and quickness? As blkexec wrote none of what will make Wroten successful is really about the Triangle. It's just simple instinctual basketball.
It should be clear that mreinman uses past performance as the best indicator of future performance. You use hope to predict the best possible future outcome. The two methods will never lead to similar expectations.
It's not just HOPE. I use my evaluation of a player's talents and try to predict how those talents will work in a given situation. It's not a guarantee since NO ONE can guarantee anything. Just so we're clear it's the same kind of thing Phil has to do as a GM. He brings in a RoLo and imagines what he could look like in a different role in his system. RoLo is actually adding to his game and it's clear he had more ability than he was allowed to show in the past.I was saying Shved was a good fit based on his talent and skills and lo and behold he was like a fish in water. It's not that I was just being hopeful. I just knew that he had the kind of Combo guard game that would work in the system if he embraced it and played confidently. DWILL is doing exactly what I thought he could do and I think he can do even better if he stays and continues to learn and develop his game in this system. It's a system full of cuts and motion and he's a player that excels without the ball but also can handle the ball and push the ball. Not really a feeling based on hope.
Wroten has to improve his jump shooting but pretty much every other aspect of his game fits this style. If like Shved he's aggressive and pushes the ball and cuts hard off Dribble Handoffs and Drag Screens like Shved. These are things he can do already and it's not hope.
Predicting how his talents will work while ignoring past stats sounds like hope.
It's not just hope. I just explained what else goes into the evaluation but if all you and some others are gonna do is reduce the argument to simply hope then of course it's going to sound bad, but what did anyone have to really go on with Shved? Certainly not his past record. Well there was his actual talent which was a great fit for this style.When evaluating players to play in the Triangle it's not rocket science. We know the kind of players that have a shot to excel in this style. I just pointed out above what some of those things are. We have years of examples in other players who have done well in this style of ball.
Players that can move without the ball, handle the ball on the move and pass are in particular good fits. Stand still shooters that can't dribble or move well without the ball or ball dominant players aren't really good fits since this system is really focused on moving without the ball and not pounding the air out of the ball, but rather to keep it moving.
If you get the ball you want to either shoot, drive or pass it with as little wasted time as possible. Post players that can get low position and hold it are very useful. RoLo is a good example of that. He's improved his scoring inside since coming here.
So like Shved, Wroten is a big guard that can push the ball, attack the basket and pass. Shved wasn't killing it with his jump shooting before coming to the Knicks. One thing that might help Wroten is the defined role, where he knows where his shots are coming and can get used to those spots. Most of his shots would come off Dribble Handoffs, coming around Screens and V Cuts. Hopefully the repetition will help him get the range on those shots. We already know he can push the ball and get early buckets and drive to the hoop in the half court.
Schved's 17 games with the Knicks don't tell you as much as his previous 200+ NBA games where he shot 35% and averaged nowhere near what he did with the knicks. If he played 200 games with the Knicks I would wager his numbers would be a lot closer to his career averages. He was red hot as a Knick. Anyone who can make an NBA can get red hot for short stretches (See one J Lin for the shining example).
Bonn and everyone else who is pessimistic's point on Wroten is that he is MORE LIKELY to simply be the players he's always been. You can hope that he someone breaks out or metamosphisizes into a better player but the odds will always be that he will simply play up to his career averages.
Yes, he is young. Yes he has some raw skills. Yes, he may become a serviceable player. But it's not 50/50. That is the less likely scenario.
nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:so these 18 pages plus the other 7 in the supplemental thread = um ... uh .... like 28 pages GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZ!What are you gonna say when Wroten is leading breaks, dunking and throwing alleyoops to DWILL, Early and KP? You think it's really gonna be that hard for a fast and athletic guard to find some success if he pushes the ball the way he always has? What exactly is so hard about Wroten getting more easy buckets by simply using his great handles and quickness? As blkexec wrote none of what will make Wroten successful is really about the Triangle. It's just simple instinctual basketball.
It should be clear that mreinman uses past performance as the best indicator of future performance. You use hope to predict the best possible future outcome. The two methods will never lead to similar expectations.
It's not just HOPE. I use my evaluation of a player's talents and try to predict how those talents will work in a given situation. It's not a guarantee since NO ONE can guarantee anything. Just so we're clear it's the same kind of thing Phil has to do as a GM. He brings in a RoLo and imagines what he could look like in a different role in his system. RoLo is actually adding to his game and it's clear he had more ability than he was allowed to show in the past.I was saying Shved was a good fit based on his talent and skills and lo and behold he was like a fish in water. It's not that I was just being hopeful. I just knew that he had the kind of Combo guard game that would work in the system if he embraced it and played confidently. DWILL is doing exactly what I thought he could do and I think he can do even better if he stays and continues to learn and develop his game in this system. It's a system full of cuts and motion and he's a player that excels without the ball but also can handle the ball and push the ball. Not really a feeling based on hope.
Wroten has to improve his jump shooting but pretty much every other aspect of his game fits this style. If like Shved he's aggressive and pushes the ball and cuts hard off Dribble Handoffs and Drag Screens like Shved. These are things he can do already and it's not hope.
Predicting how his talents will work while ignoring past stats sounds like hope.
It's not just hope. I just explained what else goes into the evaluation but if all you and some others are gonna do is reduce the argument to simply hope then of course it's going to sound bad, but what did anyone have to really go on with Shved? Certainly not his past record. Well there was his actual talent which was a great fit for this style.When evaluating players to play in the Triangle it's not rocket science. We know the kind of players that have a shot to excel in this style. I just pointed out above what some of those things are. We have years of examples in other players who have done well in this style of ball.
Players that can move without the ball, handle the ball on the move and pass are in particular good fits. Stand still shooters that can't dribble or move well without the ball or ball dominant players aren't really good fits since this system is really focused on moving without the ball and not pounding the air out of the ball, but rather to keep it moving.
If you get the ball you want to either shoot, drive or pass it with as little wasted time as possible. Post players that can get low position and hold it are very useful. RoLo is a good example of that. He's improved his scoring inside since coming here.
So like Shved, Wroten is a big guard that can push the ball, attack the basket and pass. Shved wasn't killing it with his jump shooting before coming to the Knicks. One thing that might help Wroten is the defined role, where he knows where his shots are coming and can get used to those spots. Most of his shots would come off Dribble Handoffs, coming around Screens and V Cuts. Hopefully the repetition will help him get the range on those shots. We already know he can push the ball and get early buckets and drive to the hoop in the half court.
In your predictions, how much weight did you give Wroten's past stats?
Malcolm wrote:nixluva wrote:I use my evaluation of a player's talents and try to predict how those talents will work in a given situation.Sorry, but the only substantial argument for Wroten that you and I can agree on . . . is that he must have something if Phil Jackson thinks he does.If it weren't for that . . . I don't see how I'd ever consider Wroten.
For a guard to shoot only a career 65% from the free throw line . . . is about as disqualifying a fact as I can think of for Triangle Culture.
John Paxson (PG) -- 80%
Michael Jordan (SG) -- 84%
BJ Armstrong (PG) -- 86%
Steve Kerr (PG) -- 86%Derek Fisher (PG) -- 81%
Kobe Bryant (SG) -- 83%
Shannon Brown (SG) -- 81%
Sasha Vujacic (SG) -- 86%I mean COME ON . . . I myself could shoot better than 65%.
It speaks of lack of discipline and commitment.
(BTW: Rajon Rondo is not an exception. Yes, he's an all-star even though he shoots a career 60% FT rate . . . but I can't see him fitting into Triangle Culture).
You left out Ron Harper, starting PG for the 72 win and 70 win teams.
career ft% .720
bulls starting pg 94-95 ft% .618
bulls starting pg 95-96 ft% .705
bulls starting pg 96-97 ft% .707
bulls starting pg 97-98 ft% .750
I think Wroten and Ron Harper are similar players - big guards, slashers, shooting not their strong point, but they can see the floor, defend either guard position, run, and play heady bball.
I think when Phil looks at Wroten, Ron Harper is probably his model as much as anyone else.
I'll expand further - Harper's fg% and 3pt%
bulls starting pg 94-95 fg% .426 | 3pt% .282
bulls starting pg 95-96 fg% .467 | 3pt% .269
bulls starting pg 96-97 fg% .436 | 3pt% .362
bulls starting pg 97-98 fg% .441 | 3pt% .190
nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:so these 18 pages plus the other 7 in the supplemental thread = um ... uh .... like 28 pages GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZ!What are you gonna say when Wroten is leading breaks, dunking and throwing alleyoops to DWILL, Early and KP? You think it's really gonna be that hard for a fast and athletic guard to find some success if he pushes the ball the way he always has? What exactly is so hard about Wroten getting more easy buckets by simply using his great handles and quickness? As blkexec wrote none of what will make Wroten successful is really about the Triangle. It's just simple instinctual basketball.
the same thing that I would say to someone who goes all in for 1 years salary going for a gut shot while getting even odds, and hits on the river. "what a lucky idiot".
mreinman wrote:so these 18 pages plus the other 7 in the supplemental thread = um ... uh .... like 28 pages GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZ!
Some posters seemed to have a strong desire to side track the topic to Phil bashing and triangle bashing. Not sure how that has anything to do with signing a guy to be the 15th man on a minimally guaranteed contract but it seems to stir the passions of some that want to find fault with how the 15th spot was used causing a spamming of the threads on Wroten.
CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:so these 18 pages plus the other 7 in the supplemental thread = um ... uh .... like 28 pages GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZ!
Some posters seemed to have a strong desire to side track the topic to Phil bashing and triangle bashing. Not sure how that has anything to do with signing a guy to be the 15th man on a minimally guaranteed contract but it seems to stir the passions of some that want to find fault with how the 15th spot was used causing a spamming of the threads on Wroten.
some posters who may feel emasculated in life feel like they need to silly-smugly police others. Not a great look coach 
crzymdups wrote:Looking it up, I forgot that Phil brought over Ron Harper to be the starting PG for the 2000 and 2001 championship Lakers teams. So he won five rings with a "non-shooter" at starting PG.
black and white a bit?
Different era and way different player. Harper was a smart player and an excellent defender.
Again, if a player has really sh1tty eff%'s then he better damn well be a freak in other areas.
mreinman wrote:crzymdups wrote:Looking it up, I forgot that Phil brought over Ron Harper to be the starting PG for the 2000 and 2001 championship Lakers teams. So he won five rings with a "non-shooter" at starting PG.black and white a bit?
Different era and way different player. Harper was a smart player and an excellent defender.
Again, if a player has really sh1tty eff%'s then he better damn well be a freak in other areas.
LOL, I was responding to Malcolm who listed every single Bulls and Lakers PG ever EXCEPT Ron Harper, who is a pretty decent comp to Tony Wroten SKILLSET WISE, and when you talk about shooting deficits.
crzymdups wrote:mreinman wrote:crzymdups wrote:Looking it up, I forgot that Phil brought over Ron Harper to be the starting PG for the 2000 and 2001 championship Lakers teams. So he won five rings with a "non-shooter" at starting PG.black and white a bit?
Different era and way different player. Harper was a smart player and an excellent defender.
Again, if a player has really sh1tty eff%'s then he better damn well be a freak in other areas.
LOL, I was responding to Malcolm who listed every single Bulls and Lakers PG ever EXCEPT Ron Harper, who is a pretty decent comp to Tony Wroten SKILLSET WISE, and when you talk about shooting deficits.
thats the thing. The two are a terrible comparison.
mreinman wrote:crzymdups wrote:mreinman wrote:crzymdups wrote:Looking it up, I forgot that Phil brought over Ron Harper to be the starting PG for the 2000 and 2001 championship Lakers teams. So he won five rings with a "non-shooter" at starting PG.black and white a bit?
Different era and way different player. Harper was a smart player and an excellent defender.
Again, if a player has really sh1tty eff%'s then he better damn well be a freak in other areas.
LOL, I was responding to Malcolm who listed every single Bulls and Lakers PG ever EXCEPT Ron Harper, who is a pretty decent comp to Tony Wroten SKILLSET WISE, and when you talk about shooting deficits.
thats the thing. The two are a terrible comparison.
He made a list of every single Bulls and Lakers Point guard and left off the starting point guard for FIVE of Phil's ELEVEN championships.
Why did Malcolm not list him? That's the point of my post. Not to debate analytics with you. Yes, Ron Harper is more accomplished. Wroten is 22 and has played the equivalent of two full seasons in the league so far. I can see the reasoning for Phil's interest. I'm not about proving myself correct via prediction - I'm just looking to see the logic and saying I look at Ron Harper and I can see Phil's logic. I look at Grant and see a similar logic.
Harper and Wroten? They're both 6'6" slashers whose value is more about penetrating, defense, size, rather than shooting. That's the extent of my comparison.