Knicks · the case for Shelvin Mack (page 1)
6-3 200Lb
25 yr old
PG/SG combo guard
So far -- after leading his Butler team to the final four (with Gordon Hayward), Mach had bounced around the league for a few yrs. He finally landed a role (as back up PG) with atlanta however coach bud favored the more talented Dennis Schroeder. For the longest time (last two yrs), Mack has sat the bench rotting away. He was finally traded to Utah this yr and were finally seeing what he can do (more on that later).
STRENGTHS
- huge muscular body for driving to the rim; nice floater
- not the fast but uses his shiftiness to get to the rim
- improved spot up shooter and improved passer (cut down on turnovers/finds the right man now)
- solid (enough) defender
- young player in his prime with a chip on his shoulder (wants to prove he can START)
WEAKNESSES
- spotty career numbers so far (i think he never got the chance)
- he was a turnover machine - couldn't give him the ball to create
- streaky shooter (despite improving this yr) - that has to be a concern
- there has to be a reason why he bounced around and no one wanted him
Overall - since he's not the most popular dude, he could be available for the knicks. Everyone is talking about conley, jennings and other PGs. I have a bad feeling that teams with MORE cap space (like philly with $70 to spend), could offer players we want the most money. i think the trick will be finding underrated players that teams MIGHT not look into. Mack isnt a star but he has recently shown to at least be a solid starter with a good utah team....worth looking into. hes a nice back up to the back up to the backup plan. probably worth $7mill or so.
HIGHLIGHTS
(all commentary provided by myself #NBALeaguePass)
my fear is that EVERYONE will have money (and more money) to offer free agents the next two yrs. usually money is the most important factor but everyone has it then i dont see any obvious reason why a solid decent NBA player would choose to play with the knicks (i hope im wrong of course). I think players who have something to prove and want to get a lot of mins would be attracted to ny (and philly, bk etc). im hoping for plan A but heres the case for Plan D
callmened wrote:might be too much to ask. we'll seemy fear is that EVERYONE will have money (and more money) to offer free agents the next two yrs. usually money is the most important factor but everyone has it then i dont see any obvious reason why a solid decent NBA player would choose to play with the knicks (i hope im wrong of course). I think players who have something to prove and want to get a lot of mins would be attracted to ny (and philly, bk etc). im hoping for plan A but heres the case for Plan D
we need to find very very underused players that have really high efficiency when they get their little playing time.
This is how some of us knew that lowry who nobody knew or wanted had a good chance to really shine once he got the big playing time.
callmened wrote:i think mack fits that category. look at his numbers since moving to utah. all he needed was a chance. also i think he fits the triangle since hes not the most creative guard
his utah numbers are bloody awful. What am I missing?
mack
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dacash wrote:Shelvin
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lol...ahhhahahahah
listen im not saying hes magic johnson here. just trying to be a little realistic
mreinam - in regards to his utah stats, he had two bad games in his 13 jazz games. but in the past 8 games hes averaging 13ppg, 6 asts 5 rebs. of course this is a SMALL SMALL sample size. but this is what i mean, finding these diamonds in the rough. when i started paying attention to the guy, i was impressed (at his improvement). when you listen to the utah jazz commentators, they say he def has improved their team cohesiveness.
Honestly, I think Mack might be having a few good games but since the talent pool is so low he would be a very cheap option for depth purposes.
All for exploring the plan D options like Ned's saying. And I agree with Reinman -- I'd like to give a good long look at underused/undervalued players on other teams, guys that could take off with bigger roles.. I think there's value here if we look hard enough:
Low-moderate cost NBA FA Guards
• Jerryd Bayless - I've always been a big fan--he's more of a plan B or C rather than a D to me but you get the idea. Having a real good yr shooting the ball from deep, he's got enough PG skills, he's quick/strong can penetrate/push the ball and he's talented enough to go get any shot he wants at any time. Plays hard and with a little chip on his shoulder too which I like. See this is a guy that might welcome NYC, triangle and all -- a guy we offer a raise too (say 4 yrs/$18-20mm), a starting spot and more shots at the basket (say 10-14 shots/game, up from the 8.7 shots/game he's averaging now). Could be a guy we might be able to get 15 ppg out of, maybe more--I think that's worth a contract in the neighborhood of $4.5mm/season.
• PJ Hairston - a young/strong 6'6" SG that maybe we get cheap, give a bigger role to and who knows--already starting to come into his own before he injured his groin
• E'Twaun Moore - a nice combo guard that could exceed expectations
• Tony Wroten - already in the mix
• Ray McCallum - if Memphis doesn't lock him up, we should grab him
• Allen Crabbe - if he dosen't want too much money (I'd love Crabbe or Jordan Clarkson--both are RFAs though--not sure I wanna overpay anyone unless it's KD)
DL Guards
• Sean Kilpatrick - was I right about this guy or what? He's been real good for the Nets so far (scored double figures in all but one game for Brooklyn including 3 19-pt games--Nets probably look to lock him up now)
• Russ Smith - shooting % has tailed off but he's still putting up big scoring/assist numbers
• Erick Green
• Terrico White
• Orlando Johnson
• Tim Frazier
• Darington Hobson - slightly older but I like him--does a lot of things--reminds me of a left-handed poor man's Batum
Guards playing in China
• Bryce Cotton
• Jabari Brown
• Marshon Brooks
• Kevin Murphy
• Dominique Jones - never a great shooter but I've always liked his overall game/versatility
• Jeremy Pargo/Justin Dentmon - both are a little older now but quite talented--they have the speed/quickness I'd like to see
Hey, they're not the big names like Rondo, Conley Jr. or Batum but who says those guys even wanna come play here? Maybe we grab several of these lower risk/lower cost guards, maybe add a good player with a 2nd round pick we acquire somehow (Yogi Ferrell), look into acquiring an underused/undervalued guard in a trade (Spencer Dinwiddie, Pat Connaughton?)--that's not terrible. Better than what we have right now. Maybe we don't have to spend every dollar we have this off-season.
callmened wrote:i think mack fits that category. look at his numbers since moving to utah. all he needed was a chance. also i think he fits the triangle since hes not the most creative guard
This is inconsistent with you opinion on every other displaced nba talent we've been connected to.
Shelvin is a capable player and has shown signs in the pass. He's not a starter in my opinion but he could function as one with talent around him. Utah is perfect cuz they have bigs and a few ball handlers at the 3 and 2 to help out.
Tony Wroten is our Shelvin Mack. Only thing Wroten actually averaged 16/5/5 in the nba before. If we are going to invest in a "nobody"...we need to focus on Wroten
Cartman718 wrote:please stop the madness...shelvin mack...? we should have been going after guys like tobias harris before the trade deadline, especially considering he was there to be had for the price they got him at.
Mack, to me, is all too similar to Galloway. I want more speed, more firepower--just higher end/more dynamic guard talent overall... Mack's OK--kinda of in that Galloway/Ian Clark mold. Up to me, man, I'd let Galloway go and go in a different direction. I don't care who's been here soaking up this system, who's a good locker room guy. We can't get complacent like that, looking for only triangle-specific players, looking triangle pegs to put in triangle holes. That's where a lot of the Phil Jackson criticism comes from and I think it's warranted to a degree. Guys like Calderon, Galloway--they're just not good enough, point blank. I'd rather take a chance on guys like Russ Smith, Terrico White, PJ Hairston and fail with those guys than continue on with Calderon and Galloway getting substantial minutes. And then there are guys like Jerryd Bayless, E-Twaun Moore, Ray McCallum--more known quantities that are flat out better than Galloway as well. I wanna see Phil raise the internal bar as far as amassing talent goes...Our two guys, while great guys, are part of the problem here--part of the low-grade backcourt talent level we need to desperately do something about. You hear Phil talk about Calderon the other day, how much he respects him and likes his game?? And we know they like Galloway -- I mean the plan can't possibly be to bring these two back and give them prominent roles once again. Say that isn't so, Phil! I feel Phil likes these guys for all the wrong reasons..I see where Ned's going and see why he brought Mack up (he's right--we should be looking at these types of players) but personally, I'd like to see us shoot for better talent, guards with higher ceilings.
EnySpree wrote:callmened wrote:i think mack fits that category. look at his numbers since moving to utah. all he needed was a chance. also i think he fits the triangle since hes not the most creative guardThis is inconsistent with you opinion on every other displaced nba talent we've been connected to.
huh? im confused
Cartman718 wrote:please stop the madness...shelvin mack...? we should have been going after guys like tobias harris before the trade deadline, especially considering he was there to be had for the price they got him at.
dude, im just trying to be realistic. in a perfect world we should be going after conley and teague and realistically expect us to sign here. i dont see that happening. id "Settle" for jennings and i could possibly learn to "tolerate" mack
Finestrg wrote:
Low-moderate cost NBA FA Guards
• Jerryd Bayless - I've always been a big fan--he's more of a plan B or C rather than a D to me but you get the idea. Having a real good yr shooting the ball from deep, he's got enough PG skills, he's quick/strong can penetrate/push the ball and he's talented enough to go get any shot he wants at any time. Plays hard and with a little chip on his shoulder too which I like. See this is a guy that might welcome NYC, triangle and all -- a guy we offer a raise too (say 4 yrs/$18-20mm), a starting spot and more shots at the basket (say 10-14 shots/game, up from the 8.7 shots/game he's averaging now). Could be a guy we might be able to get 15 ppg out of, maybe more--I think that's worth a contract in the neighborhood of $4.5mm/season.
• PJ Hairston - a young/strong 6'6" SG that maybe we get cheap, give a bigger role to and who knows--already starting to come into his own before he injured his groin
• E'Twaun Moore - a nice combo guard that could exceed expectations
• Tony Wroten - already in the mix
• Ray McCallum - if Memphis doesn't lock him up, we should grab him
• Allen Crabbe - if he dosen't want too much money (I'd love Crabbe or Jordan Clarkson--both are RFAs though--not sure I wanna overpay anyone unless it's KD)
J. Bayless - Ive always personally rooted for dude (he dated my lil cousin) but hes ALWAYS hurt
PJ Hairston - i need to see him start shooting better. but hes young so id take a chance
ETwaun Moore - love this guy. but hes from Chitown and loves the bulls
Ray McCallum - you know my feelings on him. hope we snatch him up
Allen Crabbe - i can see him or Bazemore being a good fit in the triangle
Connoughton - loved this kid coming out of Portland. but im sure once Crabbe leaves he'll get more playing time
callmened wrote:EnySpree wrote:callmened wrote:i think mack fits that category. look at his numbers since moving to utah. all he needed was a chance. also i think he fits the triangle since hes not the most creative guardThis is inconsistent with you opinion on every other displaced nba talent we've been connected to.
huh? im confused
So am I
Finestrg wrote:Cartman718 wrote:please stop the madness...shelvin mack...? we should have been going after guys like tobias harris before the trade deadline, especially considering he was there to be had for the price they got him at.Mack, to me, is all too similar to Galloway. I want more speed, more firepower--just higher end/more dynamic guard talent overall... Mack's OK--kinda of in that Galloway/Ian Clark mold. Up to me, man, I'd let Galloway go and go in a different direction. I don't care who's been here soaking up this system, who's a good locker room guy. We can't get complacent like that, looking for only triangle-specific players, looking triangle pegs to put in triangle holes. That's where a lot of the Phil Jackson criticism comes from and I think it's warranted to a degree. Guys like Calderon, Galloway--they're just not good enough, point blank. I'd rather take a chance on guys like Russ Smith, Terrico White, PJ Hairston and fail with those guys than continue on with Calderon and Galloway getting substantial minutes. And then there are guys like Jerryd Bayless, E-Twaun Moore, Ray McCallum--more known quantities that are flat out better than Galloway as well. I wanna see Phil raise the internal bar as far as amassing talent goes...Our two guys, while great guys, are part of the problem here--part of the low-grade backcourt talent level we need to desperately do something about. You hear Phil talk about Calderon the other day, how much he respects him and likes his game?? And we know they like Galloway -- I mean the plan can't possibly be to bring these two back and give them prominent roles once again. Say that isn't so, Phil! I feel Phil likes these guys for all the wrong reasons..I see where Ned's going and see why he brought Mack up (he's right--we should be looking at these types of players) but personally, I'd like to see us shoot for better talent, guards with higher ceilings.
The above comments make it sound like Phil would pass up on a great player simply because of Triangle fit. Phil isn't insane! He knows talent and he knows why his teams won in the past. Great players are great regardless of system. The system isn't for the team's best players. It's really for the role players so that everyone can be on the same page. Great players have the freedom to break the offense and use their greatness.
We really just have to wait and see how FA's respond to Phil and Melo's pitch this summer. We'll have money so it's at least a puncher's chance to get a FA to come.
nixluva wrote:Finestrg wrote:Cartman718 wrote:please stop the madness...shelvin mack...? we should have been going after guys like tobias harris before the trade deadline, especially considering he was there to be had for the price they got him at.Mack, to me, is all too similar to Galloway. I want more speed, more firepower--just higher end/more dynamic guard talent overall... Mack's OK--kinda of in that Galloway/Ian Clark mold. Up to me, man, I'd let Galloway go and go in a different direction. I don't care who's been here soaking up this system, who's a good locker room guy. We can't get complacent like that, looking for only triangle-specific players, looking triangle pegs to put in triangle holes. That's where a lot of the Phil Jackson criticism comes from and I think it's warranted to a degree. Guys like Calderon, Galloway--they're just not good enough, point blank. I'd rather take a chance on guys like Russ Smith, Terrico White, PJ Hairston and fail with those guys than continue on with Calderon and Galloway getting substantial minutes. And then there are guys like Jerryd Bayless, E-Twaun Moore, Ray McCallum--more known quantities that are flat out better than Galloway as well. I wanna see Phil raise the internal bar as far as amassing talent goes...Our two guys, while great guys, are part of the problem here--part of the low-grade backcourt talent level we need to desperately do something about. You hear Phil talk about Calderon the other day, how much he respects him and likes his game?? And we know they like Galloway -- I mean the plan can't possibly be to bring these two back and give them prominent roles once again. Say that isn't so, Phil! I feel Phil likes these guys for all the wrong reasons..I see where Ned's going and see why he brought Mack up (he's right--we should be looking at these types of players) but personally, I'd like to see us shoot for better talent, guards with higher ceilings.
We really just have to wait and see how FA's respond to Phil and Melo's pitch this summer. We'll have money so it's at least a puncher's chance to get a FA to come.
hmmm im not sure about that. we should have 19 mill (if affalo and dwill opts out). i think at least one of them opts out (dwill) so hopefully that will make about 26 mill avail. now sure thats alot of money but relatively small compared to other teams and their cap room. my concern is that other teams will have more MORE money. Philly for example will have at least 70 mill and according to coach brett brown (on zach lowe podcast), philly is finally looking to add talent via draft AND free gency
callmened wrote:nixluva wrote:Finestrg wrote:Cartman718 wrote:please stop the madness...shelvin mack...? we should have been going after guys like tobias harris before the trade deadline, especially considering he was there to be had for the price they got him at.Mack, to me, is all too similar to Galloway. I want more speed, more firepower--just higher end/more dynamic guard talent overall... Mack's OK--kinda of in that Galloway/Ian Clark mold. Up to me, man, I'd let Galloway go and go in a different direction. I don't care who's been here soaking up this system, who's a good locker room guy. We can't get complacent like that, looking for only triangle-specific players, looking triangle pegs to put in triangle holes. That's where a lot of the Phil Jackson criticism comes from and I think it's warranted to a degree. Guys like Calderon, Galloway--they're just not good enough, point blank. I'd rather take a chance on guys like Russ Smith, Terrico White, PJ Hairston and fail with those guys than continue on with Calderon and Galloway getting substantial minutes. And then there are guys like Jerryd Bayless, E-Twaun Moore, Ray McCallum--more known quantities that are flat out better than Galloway as well. I wanna see Phil raise the internal bar as far as amassing talent goes...Our two guys, while great guys, are part of the problem here--part of the low-grade backcourt talent level we need to desperately do something about. You hear Phil talk about Calderon the other day, how much he respects him and likes his game?? And we know they like Galloway -- I mean the plan can't possibly be to bring these two back and give them prominent roles once again. Say that isn't so, Phil! I feel Phil likes these guys for all the wrong reasons..I see where Ned's going and see why he brought Mack up (he's right--we should be looking at these types of players) but personally, I'd like to see us shoot for better talent, guards with higher ceilings.
We really just have to wait and see how FA's respond to Phil and Melo's pitch this summer. We'll have money so it's at least a puncher's chance to get a FA to come.hmmm im not sure about that. we should have 19 mill (if affalo and dwill opts out). i think at least one of them opts out (dwill) so hopefully that will make about 26 mill avail. now sure thats alot of money but relatively small compared to other teams and their cap room. my concern is that other teams will have more MORE money. Philly for example will have at least 70 mill and according to coach brett brown (on zach lowe podcast), philly is finally looking to add talent via draft AND free gency
figured we might as well look at all teams:
So, lots of details kinda missing. WAS has Beal that needs to be resigned and that is NOT included in their $50M projection for next year. Like that.
Team 2015-16 2016-17 ▾
Cleveland Cavaliers $105,953,701 $103,217,259
San Antonio Spurs $87,365,099 $84,583,607
Los Angeles Clippers $95,397,964 $83,949,072
Toronto Raptors $71,934,665 $82,724,898
Golden State Warriors $93,707,197 $80,023,544
Chicago Bulls $85,385,898 $74,201,034
New Orleans Pelicans $84,046,528 $71,967,511
Oklahoma City Thunder $94,622,660 $69,610,963
Detroit Pistons $74,021,774 $69,150,393
Minnesota Timberwolves $72,270,525 $68,933,517
Houston Rockets $90,188,412 $68,823,594
New York Knicks $75,143,775 $68,728,567
Sacramento Kings $71,840,771 $65,768,345
Phoenix Suns $69,619,149 $64,221,231
Memphis Grizzlies $82,549,257 $61,959,704
Denver Nuggets $72,513,690 $61,725,530
Dallas Mavericks $74,040,317 $61,315,955
Utah Jazz $64,783,884 $60,906,285
Milwaukee Bucks $71,240,300 $60,829,049
Indiana Pacers $71,286,088 $59,242,253
Portland Trail Blazers $61,000,674 $56,784,823
Brooklyn Nets $83,772,307 $56,662,720
Atlanta Hawks $71,453,126 $55,537,594
Boston Celtics $77,162,162 $51,161,569
Washington Wizards $84,237,317 $50,268,952
Charlotte Hornets $77,609,865 $48,905,399
Miami Heat $85,796,360 $48,881,586
Orlando Magic $63,349,656 $44,908,271
Philadelphia 76ers $66,093,888 $33,377,246
Los Angeles Lakers $72,415,125 $26,101,518