Knicks · Knicks lack pieces for the triangle. (page 1)

Ok Nixluva, have at it.

http://www.chatsports.com/new-york-knick...

so many things to highlight ... lets start with this one:

Part of that comes from the lack of a penetrating guard on the roster that can get to the hoop, though Jerian Grant was kept on the bench despite the fact that’s his strength. Another reason for the lack of shots at the rim and behind the arc is the lack of pick-and-roll play within the offense. There are plenty of pick-and-roll opportunities within the triangle, but not the way the Knicks run it. They are near the bottom of the league in pick-and-roll plays called per game.

Enjoy

This article is the DEAD ON target,your right, so many valid points to go with...

There’s a difference between what the triangle can do and how the Knicks used it. But the conceptualize triangle, when all is said and done, doesn’t mean a damn thing. All that matters is how the Knicks execute it, and the first two years of its use in New York has not been promising. In fact, the Knicks played their best basketball the last two seasons when Fisher used less of the triangle. The team was far worse after its “total immersion” under Rambis.

We saw it with our own two eyes

knicks1248 wrote:This article is the DEAD ON target,your right, so many valid points to go with...

There’s a difference between what the triangle can do and how the Knicks used it. But the conceptualize triangle, when all is said and done, doesn’t mean a damn thing. All that matters is how the Knicks execute it, and the first two years of its use in New York has not been promising. In fact, the Knicks played their best basketball the last two seasons when Fisher used less of the triangle. The team was far worse after its “total immersion” under Rambis.

We saw it with our own two eyes

my biggest concern with the perhaps obsession Phil has with all things triangular- we're going to struggle to find players that can get it, and we'd be better off running something easier that can let us focus on finding pure talent instead of triangular talent.

Basketball and building a team is hard enough, now we're going to do so while juggling and standing on one foot.

newyorker4ever wrote:Ok Nixluva, have at it.

http://www.chatsports.com/new-york-knick...

um yeah when i was saying this throughout the season (and so were a few others) and this being the reason why we would abandon triangle, nix wouldn't listen.

this is why both fisher and rambis failed miserably this season, because they could not adapt to their roster.

gasol

franco12 wrote:my biggest concern with the perhaps obsession Phil has with all things triangular- we're going to struggle to find players that can get it, and we'd be better off running something easier that can let us focus on finding pure talent instead of triangular talent.

Basketball and building a team is hard enough, now we're going to do so while juggling and standing on one foot.

how do you build with no blue print?

Is this really a news flash??? Phil knows the roster isn't perfectly set for maximizing the Triangle. He's never suggested that the team was complete. Phil clearly is trying to add and develop guards and wings who can push the ball, get to the basket, shoot and pass well enough to function in the Triangle. That's why he drafted Jerian and signed Wroten. He signed DWILL because of his ability to get to the basket. Phil has made a good start in the Frontcourt and needs to build up the talent in the backcourt. He knows this needs to be done.

The Triangle is not a single play, it's an entire system, with multiple sets, actions, rules and principles. PnR is not an offense! It's a play inside of an offense. Phil has used some PnR within the Triangle for a long time, but it's not the entire system.

Now that Rambis started to focus on proper Triangle execution there would of course be some issues in performance. There was some improvement in terms of execution even if the team didn't win more. You can't expect perfection trying to instill Triangle in the middle of a season. This is why they did the Triangle Seminar and why they'll look to do more in the Summer League.

It's easy to just run some PnR which most players are familiar with, but if you watch the playoffs you'd notice that teams aren't just getting away with simple PnR cuz the defense is too good. That's what Phil is well aware of. Since the Triangle isn't reliant on PnR, that makes it well adapted to success in the playoffs. Remember when the Knicks played the Pacers in the Playoffs and they took away the PnR with Felton and Tyson? Every year in the playoffs this happens. You can't live off only PnR and a spread floor.

In terms of developing and using KP i'm pretty sure that Phil knows all the many ways he can be used. The gaul of guys like Schmeelk thinking they have figured out something that Phil hasn't thought of is laughable. A basketball man like Phil has done and seen it all. Phil has run an offense that actually features big men or perhaps Schmeelk forgot about Shaq, Pau and Bynum!!!

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:my biggest concern with the perhaps obsession Phil has with all things triangular- we're going to struggle to find players that can get it, and we'd be better off running something easier that can let us focus on finding pure talent instead of triangular talent.

Basketball and building a team is hard enough, now we're going to do so while juggling and standing on one foot.

how do you build with no blue print?

Why can't we run variations of the triangle, and adjust to the roster.

We get non jump shooting players, and try to turn them into jump shooters, before they master the art of penetrating, we get non penetrating players, and try to turn them into slashers, we got a lethal jump shooting big man, who your forcing him in the post, when he's no where near strong enough, we got starters coming off the bench, and 12th men starting, now you want an assistant coach to be your head coach, and a president that should be the head coach.

Nobody in this franchise (from front office to coach to players) have the correct role, and that's the biggest problem we currently have

nixluva wrote:Is this really a news flash??? Phil knows the roster isn't perfectly set for maximizing the Triangle. He's never suggested that the team was complete. Phil clearly is trying to add and develop guards and wings who can push the ball, get to the basket, shoot and pass well enough to function in the Triangle. That's why he drafted Jerian and signed Wroten. He signed DWILL because of his ability to get to the basket. Phil has made a good start in the Frontcourt and needs to build up the talent in the backcourt. He knows this needs to be done.

The Triangle is not a single play, it's an entire system, with multiple sets, actions, rules and principles. PnR is not an offense! It's a play inside of an offense. Phil has used some PnR within the Triangle for a long time, but it's not the entire system.

Now that Rambis started to focus on proper Triangle execution there would of course be some issues in performance. There was some improvement in terms of execution even if the team didn't win more. You can't expect perfection trying to instill Triangle in the middle of a season. This is why they did the Triangle Seminar and why they'll look to do more in the Summer League.

It's easy to just run some PnR which most players are familiar with, but if you watch the playoffs you'd notice that teams aren't just getting away with simple PnR cuz the defense is too good. That's what Phil is well aware of. Since the Triangle isn't reliant on PnR, that makes it well adapted to success in the playoffs. Remember when the Knicks played the Pacers in the Playoffs and they took away the PnR with Felton and Tyson? Every year in the playoffs this happens. You can't live off only PnR and a spread floor.

In terms of developing and using KP i'm pretty sure that Phil knows all the many ways he can be used. The gaul of guys like Schmeelk thinking they have figured out something that Phil hasn't thought of is laughable. A basketball man like Phil has done and seen it all. Phil has run an offense that actually features big men or perhaps Schmeelk forgot about Shaq, Pau and Bynum!!!

Well said and i agree.

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:my biggest concern with the perhaps obsession Phil has with all things triangular- we're going to struggle to find players that can get it, and we'd be better off running something easier that can let us focus on finding pure talent instead of triangular talent.

Basketball and building a team is hard enough, now we're going to do so while juggling and standing on one foot.

how do you build with no blue print?

Why can't we run variations of the triangle, and adjust to the roster.

We get non jump shooting players, and try to turn them into jump shooters, before they master the art of penetrating, we get non penetrating players, and try to turn them into slashers, we got a lethal jump shooting big man, who your forcing him in the post, when he's no where near strong enough, we got starters coming off the bench, and 12th men starting, now you want an assistant coach to be your head coach, and a president that should be the head coach.

Nobody in this franchise (from front office to coach to players) have the correct role, and that's the biggest problem we currently have

Well we are in the middle of a rebuild and we are between coaches so i think Phil knows that there's still plenty of work to be done and i'm sure everything that any fan can see Phil has already seen. Ya gotta give a rebuild time cause a rebuild doesn't take one year.

Love articles that tell you things as if the principles are not aware of it.

newyorker4ever wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:my biggest concern with the perhaps obsession Phil has with all things triangular- we're going to struggle to find players that can get it, and we'd be better off running something easier that can let us focus on finding pure talent instead of triangular talent.

Basketball and building a team is hard enough, now we're going to do so while juggling and standing on one foot.

how do you build with no blue print?

Why can't we run variations of the triangle, and adjust to the roster.

We get non jump shooting players, and try to turn them into jump shooters, before they master the art of penetrating, we get non penetrating players, and try to turn them into slashers, we got a lethal jump shooting big man, who your forcing him in the post, when he's no where near strong enough, we got starters coming off the bench, and 12th men starting, now you want an assistant coach to be your head coach, and a president that should be the head coach.

Nobody in this franchise (from front office to coach to players) have the correct role, and that's the biggest problem we currently have

Well we are in the middle of a rebuild and we are between coaches so i think Phil knows that there's still plenty of work to be done and i'm sure everything that any fan can see Phil has already seen. Ya gotta give a rebuild time cause a rebuild doesn't take one year.

Funny how some begged for a rebuild for years isn't it? Now when we finally have a Prez who is effectively rebuilding people are complaining after the 1st season of the rebuild. We did what most rebuilding teams do in drafting a high 1st rd pick and he is really talented. We also drafted a PG in Jerian who he is talented and did at least close the season well, giving us hope for next season. We have another pick coming in next year in Willy and he has looked good playing for Real Madrid. I have a feeling that this is the year Thanasis will finally make the big team. I'm hoping Wroten can make the team and have a impact. Also hoping they bring back DWILL. Of course we have cap space to add more talent. It's a process and takes time.

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:my biggest concern with the perhaps obsession Phil has with all things triangular- we're going to struggle to find players that can get it, and we'd be better off running something easier that can let us focus on finding pure talent instead of triangular talent.

Basketball and building a team is hard enough, now we're going to do so while juggling and standing on one foot.

how do you build with no blue print?

Why can't we run variations of the triangle, and adjust to the roster.

We get non jump shooting players, and try to turn them into jump shooters, before they master the art of penetrating, we get non penetrating players, and try to turn them into slashers, we got a lethal jump shooting big man, who your forcing him in the post, when he's no where near strong enough, we got starters coming off the bench, and 12th men starting, now you want an assistant coach to be your head coach, and a president that should be the head coach.

Nobody in this franchise (from front office to coach to players) have the correct role, and that's the biggest problem we currently have

adjust to the roster? OK.. who's skill set was underutilized last year? Lopez had an excellent year and the longer he played in the triangle the better he looked. 2nd half of the year Lopez 12ppg, 9rebs, 2blocks and .554 FG%, Melo had a career high in assists and let the team in scoring, rebounding and assists. Derrick Williams may have resurrected his career. KP had a unicorn rookie season. I mean who are these guys your talking about? Maybe we should bring back Isiah... folks had more patience with him.

When Phil traded away the future I will start the questions. I have yet to see him trading picks to get win now player to appease Melo. Last I checked we have KP

nixluva wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:my biggest concern with the perhaps obsession Phil has with all things triangular- we're going to struggle to find players that can get it, and we'd be better off running something easier that can let us focus on finding pure talent instead of triangular talent.

Basketball and building a team is hard enough, now we're going to do so while juggling and standing on one foot.

how do you build with no blue print?

Why can't we run variations of the triangle, and adjust to the roster.

We get non jump shooting players, and try to turn them into jump shooters, before they master the art of penetrating, we get non penetrating players, and try to turn them into slashers, we got a lethal jump shooting big man, who your forcing him in the post, when he's no where near strong enough, we got starters coming off the bench, and 12th men starting, now you want an assistant coach to be your head coach, and a president that should be the head coach.

Nobody in this franchise (from front office to coach to players) have the correct role, and that's the biggest problem we currently have

Well we are in the middle of a rebuild and we are between coaches so i think Phil knows that there's still plenty of work to be done and i'm sure everything that any fan can see Phil has already seen. Ya gotta give a rebuild time cause a rebuild doesn't take one year.

Funny how some begged for a rebuild for years isn't it? Now when we finally have a Prez who is effectively rebuilding people are complaining after the 1st season of the rebuild. We did what most rebuilding teams do in drafting a high 1st rd pick and he is really talented. We also drafted a PG in Jerian who he is talented and did at least close the season well, giving us hope for next season. We have another pick coming in next year in Willy and he has looked good playing for Real Madrid. I have a feeling that this is the year Thanasis will finally make the big team. I'm hoping Wroten can make the team and have a impact. Also hoping they bring back DWILL. Of course we have cap space to add more talent. It's a process and takes time.

Yeah i don't really understand how you can for years ask for a GM that will tear the team down and rebuild it back up the right way and then when we get that you're already complaining about it. You had to know that the team will be bad for a couple/few years when you tear a team down and start building it back up so what's the problem?? I hate losing all the time to and would love for this rebuild to be finished already but unfortunately that's not how it works. We have our front court and now we need a back court and some better bench pieces and we could get lucky with our back court and one of or both of Wroten and Grant take a big step forward next season.

I love how valid critiques about using the Triangle, even though they are echoed around the entire league, are met with a lot of defensive eye rolling here, like only a handful of people on this board are making it up. The entire league is saying this about the Knicks. The entire fricking league.

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:my biggest concern with the perhaps obsession Phil has with all things triangular- we're going to struggle to find players that can get it, and we'd be better off running something easier that can let us focus on finding pure talent instead of triangular talent.

Basketball and building a team is hard enough, now we're going to do so while juggling and standing on one foot.

how do you build with no blue print?

Why can't we run variations of the triangle, and adjust to the roster.

We get non jump shooting players, and try to turn them into jump shooters, before they master the art of penetrating, we get non penetrating players, and try to turn them into slashers, we got a lethal jump shooting big man, who your forcing him in the post, when he's no where near strong enough, we got starters coming off the bench, and 12th men starting, now you want an assistant coach to be your head coach, and a president that should be the head coach.

Nobody in this franchise (from front office to coach to players) have the correct role, and that's the biggest problem we currently have

adjust to the roster? OK.. who's skill set was underutilized last year? Lopez had an excellent year and the longer he played in the triangle the better he looked. 2nd half of the year Lopez 12ppg, 9rebs, 2blocks and .554 FG%, Melo had a career high in assists and let the team in scoring, rebounding and assists. Derrick Williams may have resurrected his career. KP had a unicorn rookie season. I mean who are these guys your talking about? Maybe we should bring back Isiah... folks had more patience with him.

When Phil traded away the future I will start the questions. I have yet to see him trading picks to get win now player to appease Melo. Last I checked we have KP

If individual success dosen't translate into team wins, then what does it matter.

If the roster is kept primarily intact, then this yr could be a stepping stone, but if certain guys opt out, others leave for FA, and phil make some trades, that mean will be bring 4 or 5 rotational players that know nothing about the triangle, another yr long learning curb. By december will be yelling TANK TANK, it would be like yr 1 all over again, but phil would going into his 4th season.

I like what phil did with roster last season, but he's sabotaging his own work with this whole coaching shanninging, and not bending a little. It's like a parent telling his kids, all hip hop is bad, and forbidding them to listen to any of it.

There not a person on this earth, that would pick Rambis over Thibs, only phil, and everyone of you know it.

I like some of the things phil has done, and rambis is a not a bad assistant, but please stop trying to convince yourself that he's the right guy for the job, i'm pretty sure that if anyone on this board had there choice, he would not be on your top 8 list. we can atleast agree on that

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:my biggest concern with the perhaps obsession Phil has with all things triangular- we're going to struggle to find players that can get it, and we'd be better off running something easier that can let us focus on finding pure talent instead of triangular talent.

Basketball and building a team is hard enough, now we're going to do so while juggling and standing on one foot.

how do you build with no blue print?

Why can't we run variations of the triangle, and adjust to the roster.

We get non jump shooting players, and try to turn them into jump shooters, before they master the art of penetrating, we get non penetrating players, and try to turn them into slashers, we got a lethal jump shooting big man, who your forcing him in the post, when he's no where near strong enough, we got starters coming off the bench, and 12th men starting, now you want an assistant coach to be your head coach, and a president that should be the head coach.

Nobody in this franchise (from front office to coach to players) have the correct role, and that's the biggest problem we currently have

adjust to the roster? OK.. who's skill set was underutilized last year? Lopez had an excellent year and the longer he played in the triangle the better he looked. 2nd half of the year Lopez 12ppg, 9rebs, 2blocks and .554 FG%, Melo had a career high in assists and let the team in scoring, rebounding and assists. Derrick Williams may have resurrected his career. KP had a unicorn rookie season. I mean who are these guys your talking about? Maybe we should bring back Isiah... folks had more patience with him.

When Phil traded away the future I will start the questions. I have yet to see him trading picks to get win now player to appease Melo. Last I checked we have KP

That's the scary thing, Fish.

Phil brought in guys who were supposed to be Triangle guys. We were told heading into the season that the sky was the limit for that roster, now that they finally had Triangle guys. Now we're hearing again that the problem is that we don't have Triangle pieces.

I am fine with a rebuild, and admittedly this season sucks more because we don't have a 2016 pick which is not Phil's fault... but the logic behind the building, or rather lack of logic but singleminded approach to building this team makes me think it will never work.

Phil is not trying to build a good team. He's trying to build a team that will prove the Triangle is his legacy. Sure, if he's right, we win and that's great. But what if the Triangle isn't the answer for Melo and KP? Are we sacrificing the last years of Melo's prime and KP's development to prove something that maybe can't be proved?

Was it Kobe or the Triangle? Was it MJ or the Triangle? Phil is looking to go down swinging and clinging (haHA) to the idea that the Triangle is the one true path through not just the NBA, but life in general.

And frankly, his blaming everyone else over and over again and telling us all how stupid we are for not getting it... it's a little tired. I've watched a lot of basketball and I see much better, more efficient, responsive offensive systems on other teams.

How good could a Grant and KP pick and roll be?

Does it scare any of you that the answer is probably, "we won't find out til Phil is gone?"

Does it scare anyone that KP is a prototypical pick and pop big man and he won't be running that play til his 4th or 5th year in the league?