Knicks · The Triangle and 3pt Shooting (page 1)

There's this notion that simply by virtue of running the triangle that this somehow means that this team won't be able to take enough 3's to be competitive in the NBA. My contention is that it's not so much the offense as it's the players we have that dictate how many 3's this team takes. Granted the Triangle is not an offense that is intended to have players doing everything in order to create 3pt shots. It's a more balanced attack that does have 3pt shots as a result of ball and player movement, but it's just not solely focused on the creation of 3pt shots or PnR.

Watching this Knicks team can give a somewhat false impression on the Triangle and 3pt shots. This team hasn't taken a lot of 3's relative to the rest of the league, but that can be deceptive if you assume that is because of the design of the offense. The important thing to note is that despite not being at the very top of the heap in terms of 3's taken, Phil's Lakers teams went to 3 straight Finals. There's of course more to the game than that but it just shows that it's not the end all be all that a team runs tons of PnR and shoots tons of 3's.

2007-08 Lakers

2008-09 Lakers

2009-10 Lakers

The last 2 seasons the Knicks have had some issues with 3pt shooting

2014-15 3pt attempt leaders

The Knicks attempted 1614 3pt shots at 34.7% ranking 21st in the league in attempts.

2015-16 3pt attempt leaders

The Knicks attempted 1762 3pt shots at 34.6% ranking 23rd in the league in attempts.

Stats from http://www.basketball-reference.com/leag...

IMO this team could most certainly have taken more 3's if all the guards were actually confident 3pt shooters. Gallo lost his confidence and Grant had to build up his confidence as he did towards the end of the season. Jose simply doesn't shoot enough period!!! AA spent so much time looking for post ups that it tends to skew things. If you replace those Jose and AA with guards that not only can shoot the 3 but look for it, then along with more confidence from Gallo and Grant you should see the team take more 3's.

This is in addition to Melo taking more 3's than he did last year. I think he was reluctant to do so due to his leg strength not being what is should be. In any event I think the team will never match the elite 3pt attempt teams but we should expect an increase depending on the guards Phil adds and the improvement of Gallo and Grant. The improvement of LT, DWILL if they return and Early could also have an impact.

More guard penetration and kicking out to 3pt shooters is also important to how many 3's you take. The same with bigs inside looking to pass out when the double comes. These are things that should be happening on a higher level than they have this season. The ball has to move and removing Black Holes like AA would help a lot. All the cutting should lead to more open 3's if we have willing passers and confident shooters.

This is what the Triangle is supposed to look like. Take note of the Speed, spacing and how aggressively guards and wings move to get open for 3. Post or Drive Penetration leads to passes to open shooters on the perimeter.

nixluva wrote:In any event I think the team will never match the elite 3pt attempt teams but we should expect an increase depending on the guards Phil adds and the improvement of Gallo and Grant.

And it's not even so much about shooting threes . . . or not shooting threes.

What's more important is whether they are OPEN threes . . . or contested threes.

Triangle movement and passing maximizes open shots, be it two-pointers or three-pointers.

I'm too lazy to find them myself . . . but there are doubtless stats out there somewhere
that tell us which teams shoot the most OPEN threes.

Malcolm wrote:

nixluva wrote:In any event I think the team will never match the elite 3pt attempt teams but we should expect an increase depending on the guards Phil adds and the improvement of Gallo and Grant.

And it's not even so much about shooting threes . . . or not shooting threes.

What's more important is whether they are OPEN threes . . . or contested threes.

Triangle movement and passing maximizes open shots, be it two-pointers or three-pointers.

I'm too lazy to find them myself . . . but there are doubtless stats out there somewhere
that tell us which teams shoot the most OPEN threes.

Yes the movement, passing and spacing should lead to open shots. From what I have seen with the Knicks is that they have to pass and cut much faster to stay ahead of the defense. This is why things often looked so different when we had Schved and this year with Sasha. He was pushing the ball, driving hard on Dribble Handoffs, hard cuts and he looked to pass the ball at speed rather than holding the ball and allowing the defense to get comfortable.

The better all of our players get at moving and passing quickly, in this offense the better shots everyone should get. I expect to see more pushing of the ball and pressuring the defense with post ups and penetration. There will always be targets behind the 3pt line if players drive and kick and big men get deep post and look to pass out if help comes. If the Knicks execute too slowly then it just gives the defense time to react and get back on D.

I remember how good the Knicks were starting to look before Melo hurt his ankle. They were playing with the right speed and confidence.

nixluva wrote:From what I have seen with the Knicks is that they have to pass and cut much faster to stay ahead of the defense.
This is why things often looked so different when we had Schved and this year with Sasha.
He was pushing the ball, driving hard on Dribble Handoffs, hard cuts and he looked to pass the ball at speed
rather than holding the ball and allowing the defense to get comfortable.

Of course, of course.

But I'm pretty sure that the Knick players are NOWHERE near fully convinced about this.

There's "knowing" stuff intellectually . . . and then there's actually understanding it
emotionally and physically.

They think it's going to be just a little more of something that they already know . . . when
it's actually something entirely different that they don't know at all.

As long as they keep thinking the way they do . . . and even ignore the obvious light-bulb
moments (like how the Knicks Triangle can look so different when such a second-rate player
as Vujacic is in there) . . . it's going to be a lot of hit and miss.

In that respect, I think there's a better case to be made against Rambis than the kind most
people are making.

They want to criticize him from OUTSIDE the Triangle Culture.

If I were going to criticize him . . . I'd do it from WITHIN the Triangle Culture.

I accept that Rambis knows and understands the Triangle Offense.

But that's different than being able to transmit Triangle Culture to people.

He may not have the gifts (that Jackson has . . .) to do that.

WHAT JACKSON IS TRYING TO DO WITH THE KNICKS IS ALL SO DIFFERENT THAN WHAT PEOPLE THINK (!)

nixluva wrote:From what I have seen with the Knicks is that they have to pass and cut much faster to stay ahead of the defense.
This is why things often looked so different when we had Schved and this year with Sasha.
He was pushing the ball, driving hard on Dribble Handoffs, hard cuts and he looked to pass the ball at speed
rather than holding the ball and allowing the defense to get comfortable.

That's why I would pay Pau Gasol almost anything he wants to come to New York.

I would make it Priority #1.

If Vujacic can make such a difference to developing Triangle Culture . . . just
think what having Gasol could do.

You gotta convince the rest of the Knicks that there's something in the Triangle
that they haven't yet tuned into (!)

Malcolm wrote:

nixluva wrote:From what I have seen with the Knicks is that they have to pass and cut much faster to stay ahead of the defense.
This is why things often looked so different when we had Schved and this year with Sasha.
He was pushing the ball, driving hard on Dribble Handoffs, hard cuts and he looked to pass the ball at speed
rather than holding the ball and allowing the defense to get comfortable.

That's why I would pay Pau Gasol almost anything he wants to come to New York.

I would make it Priority #1.

If Vujacic can make such a difference to developing Triangle Culture . . . just
think what having Gasol could do.

You gotta convince the rest of the Knicks that there's something in the Triangle
that they haven't yet tuned into (!)

I'm pretty sure Phil will do his best to try and convince Pau to come. It just makes too much sense from the perspective of showing the other guys how it's done. He still has enough left in the tank to be a plus as long as he's not overused, which he won't be on this team.

Good find on the stats but those highlights don't do the triangle a ton of justice. The majority of those plays aren't even triangle actions and some of them aren't even from the triangle set. A lot of that was spread floor drive and kick, which this team desperately needs(ballhandlers/athletes/playmakers). If we had better talent we would have seen a lot more of that but despite their good shooting Jose and AA had to have been the slowest backcourt in the league. Across the board we are pretty slow at every position.

Malcolm wrote:

nixluva wrote:From what I have seen with the Knicks is that they have to pass and cut much faster to stay ahead of the defense.
This is why things often looked so different when we had Schved and this year with Sasha.
He was pushing the ball, driving hard on Dribble Handoffs, hard cuts and he looked to pass the ball at speed
rather than holding the ball and allowing the defense to get comfortable.

That's why I would pay Pau Gasol almost anything he wants to come to New York.

I would make it Priority #1.

If Vujacic can make such a difference to developing Triangle Culture . . . just
think what having Gasol could do.

You gotta convince the rest of the Knicks that there's something in the Triangle
that they haven't yet tuned into (!)

I'm sure he has lots of Kobe Bryant and Shaq stories he can have them turn to.

tj23 wrote:Good find on the stats but those highlights don't do the triangle a ton of justice. The majority of those plays aren't even triangle actions and some of them aren't even from the triangle set. A lot of that was spread floor drive and kick, which this team desperately needs(ballhandlers/athletes/playmakers). If we had better talent we would have seen a lot more of that but despite their good shooting Jose and AA had to have been the slowest backcourt in the league. Across the board we are pretty slow at every position.

A lot of people keep pointing to the different looks not being Triangle but it's not only about how much the team is actually in a text book side Triangle. I've said this over and over but there is much more to the offense than the Side Triangle. No team ever has stayed in the Side Triangle most of the time. Not the old Bulls, new Bulls, old Lakers or Phil last Lakers teams.

If you study the offense there are looks Tex has that are spread looks but people only focus on the Side Triangle. There is MUCH more to the offense than that. It's a very old and fully developed offensive system. I get criticized when I post plays or stills trying to show the various looks but it's literally all in Tex's book.

nixluva wrote:

tj23 wrote:Good find on the stats but those highlights don't do the triangle a ton of justice. The majority of those plays aren't even triangle actions and some of them aren't even from the triangle set. A lot of that was spread floor drive and kick, which this team desperately needs(ballhandlers/athletes/playmakers). If we had better talent we would have seen a lot more of that but despite their good shooting Jose and AA had to have been the slowest backcourt in the league. Across the board we are pretty slow at every position.

A lot of people keep pointing to the different looks not being Triangle but it's not only about how much the team is actually in a text book side Triangle. I've said this over and over but there is much more to the offense than the Side Triangle. No team ever has stayed in the Side Triangle most of the time. Not the old Bulls, new Bulls, old Lakers or Phil last Lakers teams.

If you study the offense there are looks Tex has that are spread looks but people only focus on the Side Triangle. There is MUCH more to the offense than that. It's a very old and fully developed offensive system. I get criticized when I post plays or stills trying to show the various looks but it's literally all in Tex's book.

So was it wrong for Fish to break out of triangle at times and incorporate more high screen and roll or is that deviating too much?

nixluva wrote:

tj23 wrote:Good find on the stats but those highlights don't do the triangle a ton of justice. The majority of those plays aren't even triangle actions and some of them aren't even from the triangle set. A lot of that was spread floor drive and kick, which this team desperately needs(ballhandlers/athletes/playmakers). If we had better talent we would have seen a lot more of that but despite their good shooting Jose and AA had to have been the slowest backcourt in the league. Across the board we are pretty slow at every position.

A lot of people keep pointing to the different looks not being Triangle but it's not only about how much the team is actually in a text book side Triangle. I've said this over and over but there is much more to the offense than the Side Triangle. No team ever has stayed in the Side Triangle most of the time. Not the old Bulls, new Bulls, old Lakers or Phil last Lakers teams.

If you study the offense there are looks Tex has that are spread looks but people only focus on the Side Triangle. There is MUCH more to the offense than that. It's a very old and fully developed offensive system. I get criticized when I post plays or stills trying to show the various looks but it's literally all in Tex's book.

You should make a thread or a blog dedicated to it. I like reading stuff like that and I am sure others do too.

tj23 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tj23 wrote:Good find on the stats but those highlights don't do the triangle a ton of justice. The majority of those plays aren't even triangle actions and some of them aren't even from the triangle set. A lot of that was spread floor drive and kick, which this team desperately needs(ballhandlers/athletes/playmakers). If we had better talent we would have seen a lot more of that but despite their good shooting Jose and AA had to have been the slowest backcourt in the league. Across the board we are pretty slow at every position.

A lot of people keep pointing to the different looks not being Triangle but it's not only about how much the team is actually in a text book side Triangle. I've said this over and over but there is much more to the offense than the Side Triangle. No team ever has stayed in the Side Triangle most of the time. Not the old Bulls, new Bulls, old Lakers or Phil last Lakers teams.

If you study the offense there are looks Tex has that are spread looks but people only focus on the Side Triangle. There is MUCH more to the offense than that. It's a very old and fully developed offensive system. I get criticized when I post plays or stills trying to show the various looks but it's literally all in Tex's book.

So was it wrong for Fish to break out of triangle at times and incorporate more high screen and roll or is that deviating too much?

The actual problem with Fish was that he didn't try to properly teach the base offense and then BUILD on that. PnR is already in the Triangle as are spread looks but how you get into those plays from the Triangle smoothly is important for the players to learn. Just go watch any Bulls or Lakers video and you'll see all kinds of different looks within the Triangle.

nixluva wrote:

tj23 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tj23 wrote:Good find on the stats but those highlights don't do the triangle a ton of justice. The majority of those plays aren't even triangle actions and some of them aren't even from the triangle set. A lot of that was spread floor drive and kick, which this team desperately needs(ballhandlers/athletes/playmakers). If we had better talent we would have seen a lot more of that but despite their good shooting Jose and AA had to have been the slowest backcourt in the league. Across the board we are pretty slow at every position.

A lot of people keep pointing to the different looks not being Triangle but it's not only about how much the team is actually in a text book side Triangle. I've said this over and over but there is much more to the offense than the Side Triangle. No team ever has stayed in the Side Triangle most of the time. Not the old Bulls, new Bulls, old Lakers or Phil last Lakers teams.

If you study the offense there are looks Tex has that are spread looks but people only focus on the Side Triangle. There is MUCH more to the offense than that. It's a very old and fully developed offensive system. I get criticized when I post plays or stills trying to show the various looks but it's literally all in Tex's book.

So was it wrong for Fish to break out of triangle at times and incorporate more high screen and roll or is that deviating too much?

The actual problem with Fish was that he didn't try to properly teach the base offense and then BUILD on that. PnR is already in the Triangle as are spread looks but how you get into those plays from the Triangle smoothly is important for the players to learn. Just go watch any Bulls or Lakers video and you'll see all kinds of different looks within the Triangle.

No there is but high PNR from the top has its advantages too and supposedly isn't part of the traditional triangle. So when you break from the triangle to create more spacing why not break at times to throw in some quick hitting PNR up top? I realize it hurts floor balance but the wing PNR out of pinch post and the corner PNR take longer to execute as well.

I believe Rambis when he says Fisher skipped over certain elements because this veteran group should've been able to get more easy buckets but our passing was atrocious. It seemed clear to me that the majority of players didn't understand the reads of the triangle. Didn't help that Grant was the only guard that could ocassionally turn the corner well around a screen either.