Knicks · Hornacek: Triangle or Not (?) We'll Know Real Soon . . . (page 1)
But this forum helped me explore the background of it and
I now think that it's as likely as not that the Knicks will
continue implementing Triangle Culture just as before.
I seem to be in the minority, though, in adopting that
perspective.
Almost everyone else -- certainly in the Media -- seems
to be assuming that Hornacek as coach means that the
Knicks will abandon the Triangle.
I don't think so.
I'm guessing that the way this went down is that Hornacek
is equally comfortable (and experienced . . .) in both
conventional offense and in the Triangle.
He might even be said to be someone who'd run whichever
would be appropriate to the personnel in hand.
And the Knicks are now more than half way to being a Triangle
team . . . with momentum to continue in that direction.
So I'm guessing that Jackson laid his Triangle vision out
to Hornacek . . . to see if he wanted in on it.
And Hornacek showed enough sincere enthusiasm for it . . .
to get the job.
That's my best guess -- and hope.
It'll probably be pretty easy to tell real soon: just
see whether Rambis continues as Associate Coach . . . or not.
There are two things we should expect from Hornacek. He'll try to set up KP for open 3's in the half court and he'll run a lot more than we ran last season.
From what i've seen of Jeff's system it's very much a team oriented style with plenty of motion and passing. The core of the team already knows the Triangle at a decent level and they aren't gonna forget in a couple of months. If the wanted to still use some of it, I can't see how that would be hard. The big change would be what they do EARLY in the possession. Less having to read the defense and instead being aggressive, pushing the ball and forcing the defense into bad choices and then attacking the D when it tries to react. Then if they wanted to it wouldn't be hard to flow into a Side Triangle if the defense stops their early push. That's what i'd do. They never ran 100% Triangle to begin with so...
HOrnacek as said maybe wants in on the "Brotherhood of the Triangle"?
IDK if JH ran 3 pgs because they were all very talented, or because he had no choice..
knicks1248 wrote:The system should be base on the roster, and what phil can bring in this off season. The problem we keep running into is players that don't.IDK if JH ran 3 pgs because they were all very talented, or because he had no choice..
Some of what he did was roster specific but he did a lot of basic stuff too. Running Horns Sets is fairly common. He ran some Flex. It's not gonna be hard to have our young guards to push the ball in a SSOL MDA Style. The fact that we have a big like KP makes it easy to do the same things he did with Channing Frye. RoLo can PnR like Plumlee. Melo can post like Morris. Just add 3nD SG's and I think it all works well enough. I don't really see much of a problem for Horn adapting to this roster a lot of what he did in PHX.
Nalod wrote:Perhaps Phil Tree needed a new branch.......Yes -- that's the best case scenario.Hornacek as said maybe wants in on the "Brotherhood of the Triangle"?
Let's hope that's what's happening . . . and that we'll have continuity
from top to bottom in the organization.
Triangle-24/7 . . .
knicks1248 wrote:The system should be base on the roster, and what phil can bring in this off season. The problem we keep running into is players that don't.IDK if JH ran 3 pgs because they were all very talented, or because he had no choice..
system and talent are mutually influential. the hard thing to grasp is that the triangle requires both conditioning and basketball fundamentals like moving without the ball/cutting and passing the ball rhythmically. the two can be coordinated through drills but eventually improvisation must displace mechanization as the payers get to know each other. that leads to continuity which is a roster issue. for example, afflalo does not belong here on either the conditioning and lack of passing skills, but dwill is far more promising as we saw a slight uptick in his passing awareness/court vision towards the end of the season. turner, similarly, is preferable to jennings or any other player whose skills are not compatible with the triangle theme of cutting without the ball and sharing.
and then there's the issue of defensive efficacy.
dk7th wrote:the hard thing to grasp is that the triangle requires both conditioning andYep.
basketball fundamentals like moving without the ball/cutting and passing the
ball rhythmically. the two can be coordinated through drills but eventually
improvisation must displace mechanization as the payers get to know each other.
that leads to continuity which is a roster issue.
The problem is that the players think that they already know what it's about.
They mistake ordinary getting-better-at-something for Triangle getting-better-
at-something.
Which means they don't really get better at the Triangle . . . but only at their
mistaken idea of the Triangle. Two different things.
They need a "light bulb" moment . . . to get clear about the difference.
Vujacic is invaluable for that . . . because when he's in the mix there can be
occasions where the team ACCIDENTALLY slips into full Triangle mode.
If that happens often enough . . . one by one the players get the idea.
Bringing Pau Gasol on board . . . would help a lot (!)
dk7th wrote:the triangle requires both conditioning and basketball fundamentalsAnd you don't do it with the same physical skills that you do almost everything
like moving without the ball/cutting and passing the ball rhythmically.
else in basketball.
The Triangle works through a different level of functioning:
Jackson describes the Triangle as the "Tai Chi of basketball" . . .
That said what Horn is doing it making a system where the results are very similar to the Triangles team concept with a lower level of thinking involved. By being aggressive and pushing the ball you will create a lot of easy scoring. By spreading teams out and being aggressive and attacking off screens, using motion to create situations where the defense has to close out, that gives your players lots of opportunities to attack the close out or exploit the help and pass to open teammates. It's a very effective style that still involves everyone in ball and player movement.
Horn's system also enhances the strengths of many of our players. The PnR that is part of the motion fits many of our best players. KP, RoLo, Grant, Wroten, Gallo. The post at the Elbows, ISO that results from some of the motion in his plays will fit Melo perfectly. This team can still work as a group in a different style of ball. It doesn't have to be the Triangle in order to achieve that. This is no different than the Spurs or Warriors. It's gonna be interesting to see what the final decision will be regarding the offense. My guess is Horn will merge the 2 systems.
nixluva wrote:The beauty of the Triangle is that once a team actually has mastered the offense and the thinking behind it, they are liberated from calling plays and can react and respond on the fly to whatever the Defense does, but time can be a factor with today's players not having the same base level of BB IQ and fundamentals.That said what Horn is doing it making a system where the results are very similar to the Triangles team concept with a lower level of thinking involved. By being aggressive and pushing the ball you will create a lot of easy scoring. By spreading teams out and being aggressive and attacking off screens, using motion to create situations where the defense has to close out, that gives your players lots of opportunities to attack the close out or exploit the help and pass to open teammates. It's a very effective style that still involves everyone in ball and player movement.
Horn's system also enhances the strengths of many of our players. The PnR that is part of the motion fits many of our best players. KP, RoLo, Grant, Wroten, Gallo. The post at the Elbows, ISO that results from some of the motion in his plays will fit Melo perfectly. This team can still work as a group in a different style of ball. It doesn't have to be the Triangle in order to achieve that. This is no different than the Spurs or Warriors. It's gonna be interesting to see what the final decision will be regarding the offense. My guess is Horn will merge the 2 systems.
Yessir. Jeff is a great option because he emphasizes the motion aspect of the triangle while trying to get the most efficient shots as possible. Great hire here.
dk7th wrote:system and talent are mutually influential. the hard thing to grasp is that the triangle requires both conditioning and basketball fundamentals like moving without the ball/cutting and passing the ball rhythmically. the two can be coordinated through drills but eventually improvisation must displace mechanization as the payers get to know each other. that leads to continuity which is a roster issue. for example, afflalo does not belong here on either the conditioning and lack of passing skills, but dwill is far more promising as we saw a slight uptick in his passing awareness/court vision towards the end of the season. turner, similarly, is preferable to jennings or any other player whose skills are not compatible with the triangle theme of cutting without the ball and sharing.and then there's the issue of defensive efficacy.
Excellent post, spot on.
Called 'triangle' or no (for PR reasons or public acceptance), the Knicks will still be emphasizing all the same fundamentals and will not be changing the team ball approach. That's at the core of Jackson's whole basketball reasons for being here (obv $$ doesn't suck either), and I'm sure his approach to acquiring players is all about that.
Rosen says the triangle isn't completely scrapped
“It’s hard to imagine Phil caving in and abandoning a system that is entirely flexible and he’s had so much success in the past,” Rosen told The Post. “That’s absurd. It takes many forms. You can change it from the low post to the high post. You can do anything. People talk about it being mechanical and robotic. It’s not the case. Maybe it’s the case with guys who never played it before because they have to think instead of react.
Hornacek’s hiring was a stunner because he never worked or played for Jackson or ran the triangle. Rosen, however, said the media missed the boat by not pointing out Hornacek defended against Jackson’s triangle for 10 years. Plus, he worked against it in two Finals series when the Bulls faced the Jazz in the late 1990s.“When you’re in the Finals, you’re doing heavy-duty scouting before,” Rosen said. “Your B team will run the triangle in practice. It’s not the same as coaching it or playing it, but he has a certain degree of familiarity.”
I have a feeling we'll see a combination of what Horn did with the suns with triangle offense plays mixed in. He didn't have what would be a called a system in Phoenix (similar to how better coaches these days like Kerr, Stotts, Pops, etc don't have systems) but used a combination of plays that emphasized his rosters strength. A lot of those plays could be useful for the knicks, but obviously with the way the lineup is made (and the lack of PG's with 3 pt shots) I could see him being willing to change things around.
wargames wrote:http://nypost.com/2016/05/22/bulls-t-cri...Rosen says the triangle isn't completely scrapped
“It’s hard to imagine Phil caving in and abandoning a system that is entirely flexible and he’s had so much success in the past,” Rosen told The Post. “That’s absurd. It takes many forms. You can change it from the low post to the high post. You can do anything. People talk about it being mechanical and robotic. It’s not the case. Maybe it’s the case with guys who never played it before because they have to think instead of react.Hornacek’s hiring was a stunner because he never worked or played for Jackson or ran the triangle. Rosen, however, said the media missed the boat by not pointing out Hornacek defended against Jackson’s triangle for 10 years. Plus, he worked against it in two Finals series when the Bulls faced the Jazz in the late 1990s.“When you’re in the Finals, you’re doing heavy-duty scouting before,” Rosen said. “Your B team will run the triangle in practice. It’s not the same as coaching it or playing it, but he has a certain degree of familiarity.”
I have a feeling we'll see a combination of what Horn did with the suns with triangle offense plays mixed in. He didn't have what would be a called a system in Phoenix (similar to how better coaches these days like Kerr, Stotts, Pops, etc don't have systems) but used a combination of plays that emphasized his rosters strength. A lot of those plays could be useful for the knicks, but obviously with the way the lineup is made (and the lack of PG's with 3 pt shots) I could see him being willing to change things around.
Spurs have a system. Once you establish your style of play and build on it long enough it can become a system. That's how it works. Spurs have been developing what they do and tweaking it over the entire time Pop has been coach. The Triangle evolved into a system over time as well but it's just MUCH older.
Rosen seems unaware of the fact that Horn actually played 4 years in the triangle under Cotton Fitzsimmons. He does know and understand the Triangle enough to coach it and I suspect he'll blend in some Triangle. He could use the Triangle as the base offense and simply tweak it with his own principles. I've been saying for over a year that the Triangle as a system is highly flexible. It's up to the coach to decide what they will focus on and how they will run the system.
nixluva wrote:wargames wrote:http://nypost.com/2016/05/22/bulls-t-cri...Rosen says the triangle isn't completely scrapped
“It’s hard to imagine Phil caving in and abandoning a system that is entirely flexible and he’s had so much success in the past,” Rosen told The Post. “That’s absurd. It takes many forms. You can change it from the low post to the high post. You can do anything. People talk about it being mechanical and robotic. It’s not the case. Maybe it’s the case with guys who never played it before because they have to think instead of react.Hornacek’s hiring was a stunner because he never worked or played for Jackson or ran the triangle. Rosen, however, said the media missed the boat by not pointing out Hornacek defended against Jackson’s triangle for 10 years. Plus, he worked against it in two Finals series when the Bulls faced the Jazz in the late 1990s.“When you’re in the Finals, you’re doing heavy-duty scouting before,” Rosen said. “Your B team will run the triangle in practice. It’s not the same as coaching it or playing it, but he has a certain degree of familiarity.”
I have a feeling we'll see a combination of what Horn did with the suns with triangle offense plays mixed in. He didn't have what would be a called a system in Phoenix (similar to how better coaches these days like Kerr, Stotts, Pops, etc don't have systems) but used a combination of plays that emphasized his rosters strength. A lot of those plays could be useful for the knicks, but obviously with the way the lineup is made (and the lack of PG's with 3 pt shots) I could see him being willing to change things around.
Spurs have a system. Once you establish your style of play and build on it long enough it can become a system. That's how it works. Spurs have been developing what they do and tweaking it over the entire time Pop has been coach. The Triangle evolved into a system over time as well but it's just MUCH older.Rosen seems unaware of the fact that Horn actually played 4 years in the triangle under Cotton Fitzsimmons. He does know and understand the Triangle enough to coach it and I suspect he'll blend in some Triangle. He could use the Triangle as the base offense and simply tweak it with his own principles. I've been saying for over a year that the Triangle as a system is highly flexible. It's up to the coach to decide what they will focus on and how they will run the system.
Pops system is really based on his current personnel. I am sure that Hornacek is smart enough to do the same thing. Play to our strengths.
mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:wargames wrote:http://nypost.com/2016/05/22/bulls-t-cri...Rosen says the triangle isn't completely scrapped
“It’s hard to imagine Phil caving in and abandoning a system that is entirely flexible and he’s had so much success in the past,” Rosen told The Post. “That’s absurd. It takes many forms. You can change it from the low post to the high post. You can do anything. People talk about it being mechanical and robotic. It’s not the case. Maybe it’s the case with guys who never played it before because they have to think instead of react.Hornacek’s hiring was a stunner because he never worked or played for Jackson or ran the triangle. Rosen, however, said the media missed the boat by not pointing out Hornacek defended against Jackson’s triangle for 10 years. Plus, he worked against it in two Finals series when the Bulls faced the Jazz in the late 1990s.“When you’re in the Finals, you’re doing heavy-duty scouting before,” Rosen said. “Your B team will run the triangle in practice. It’s not the same as coaching it or playing it, but he has a certain degree of familiarity.”
I have a feeling we'll see a combination of what Horn did with the suns with triangle offense plays mixed in. He didn't have what would be a called a system in Phoenix (similar to how better coaches these days like Kerr, Stotts, Pops, etc don't have systems) but used a combination of plays that emphasized his rosters strength. A lot of those plays could be useful for the knicks, but obviously with the way the lineup is made (and the lack of PG's with 3 pt shots) I could see him being willing to change things around.
Spurs have a system. Once you establish your style of play and build on it long enough it can become a system. That's how it works. Spurs have been developing what they do and tweaking it over the entire time Pop has been coach. The Triangle evolved into a system over time as well but it's just MUCH older.Rosen seems unaware of the fact that Horn actually played 4 years in the triangle under Cotton Fitzsimmons. He does know and understand the Triangle enough to coach it and I suspect he'll blend in some Triangle. He could use the Triangle as the base offense and simply tweak it with his own principles. I've been saying for over a year that the Triangle as a system is highly flexible. It's up to the coach to decide what they will focus on and how they will run the system.
Pops system is really based on his current personnel. I am sure that Hornacek is smart enough to do the same thing. Play to our strengths.
Pop TWEAKS what they do based on personnel but they've had concepts that have remained in place for many years. Phil did the same exact thing but people constantly keep talking like he's never changed the Triangle, when in fact he has changed things up based on his personnel.
Another thing is that in NY we've NEVER run the full Triangle all the time. Not even under Rambis did the team really go deep into the Triangle or stay in it all the time.
Horn is going to have to also adjust to this roster which isn't the same as what he had in PHX. That's only natural to expect. Still it should be very interesting to see what he comes up with and how the team will look next year. Now he'll have some influence on what Phil does cuz they will have talked about how Horn plans to do things and what he'll need to accomplish his goals. Phil is aware of how important it is for the GM/Prez to support the coach.
Ira wrote:The choices aren't limited to running the triangle, running a different system and running the triangle sometimes and a different system other times. What we might see is a hybrid system that incorporates aspects of the triangle and aspects of other systems in the half court.There are two things we should expect from Hornacek. He'll try to set up KP for open 3's in the half court and he'll run a lot more than we ran last season.
/END THREAD
nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:wargames wrote:http://nypost.com/2016/05/22/bulls-t-cri...Rosen says the triangle isn't completely scrapped
“It’s hard to imagine Phil caving in and abandoning a system that is entirely flexible and he’s had so much success in the past,” Rosen told The Post. “That’s absurd. It takes many forms. You can change it from the low post to the high post. You can do anything. People talk about it being mechanical and robotic. It’s not the case. Maybe it’s the case with guys who never played it before because they have to think instead of react.Hornacek’s hiring was a stunner because he never worked or played for Jackson or ran the triangle. Rosen, however, said the media missed the boat by not pointing out Hornacek defended against Jackson’s triangle for 10 years. Plus, he worked against it in two Finals series when the Bulls faced the Jazz in the late 1990s.“When you’re in the Finals, you’re doing heavy-duty scouting before,” Rosen said. “Your B team will run the triangle in practice. It’s not the same as coaching it or playing it, but he has a certain degree of familiarity.”
I have a feeling we'll see a combination of what Horn did with the suns with triangle offense plays mixed in. He didn't have what would be a called a system in Phoenix (similar to how better coaches these days like Kerr, Stotts, Pops, etc don't have systems) but used a combination of plays that emphasized his rosters strength. A lot of those plays could be useful for the knicks, but obviously with the way the lineup is made (and the lack of PG's with 3 pt shots) I could see him being willing to change things around.
Spurs have a system. Once you establish your style of play and build on it long enough it can become a system. That's how it works. Spurs have been developing what they do and tweaking it over the entire time Pop has been coach. The Triangle evolved into a system over time as well but it's just MUCH older.Rosen seems unaware of the fact that Horn actually played 4 years in the triangle under Cotton Fitzsimmons. He does know and understand the Triangle enough to coach it and I suspect he'll blend in some Triangle. He could use the Triangle as the base offense and simply tweak it with his own principles. I've been saying for over a year that the Triangle as a system is highly flexible. It's up to the coach to decide what they will focus on and how they will run the system.
Pops system is really based on his current personnel. I am sure that Hornacek is smart enough to do the same thing. Play to our strengths.
Pop TWEAKS what they do based on personnel but they've had concepts that have remained in place for many years. Phil did the same exact thing but people constantly keep talking like he's never changed the Triangle, when in fact he has changed things up based on his personnel.Another thing is that in NY we've NEVER run the full Triangle all the time. Not even under Rambis did the team really go deep into the Triangle or stay in it all the time.
Horn is going to have to also adjust to this roster which isn't the same as what he had in PHX. That's only natural to expect. Still it should be very interesting to see what he comes up with and how the team will look next year. Now he'll have some influence on what Phil does cuz they will have talked about how Horn plans to do things and what he'll need to accomplish his goals. Phil is aware of how important it is for the GM/Prez to support the coach.
I don't care what we ran before, I just know that it was FUGLY! I am happy that JH is here and we not how a really smart guy as a coach. Not like the other 2 tools that phil hired/promoted.
If JH really has autonomy that I have full faith in him that he will run a smart modern offense that maximizes our efficiency and does not hide KP in the post. He will have no problem having KP shoot 10 3's a game if need be.