I am not a LeBron fan, but i think he has done enough to justify his place as the 2nd best player of all time, when his career comes to an end.
Knixkik wrote:I am not a LeBron fan, but i think he has done enough to justify his place as the 2nd best player of all time, when his career comes to an end.
I agree. I also would argue the notion of "GOAT" has many definitions and perhaps we can say "Miken, Chamberlin, Jabbar, Magic/Bird, Jordan, Lebron......all were generational best of their time. Dominant players who changed the game and could carry a team for a while.
Jabbar was in the league 11 years with just one title before "Showtime" came about. He was able to extend his career because of the team he was on. I put Duncan in the same category. Gentetically gifted and lucky to have the kind of team around them. Oscar Robertson was off the charts but played on some not so great teams. Jerry West went to 9 finals, won just one. Considered the best shooting guard of all time.
To lay that "Lebron has not lived up to expectations" and yet discount 7 trips to the finals to the degree some of you are is a bit harsh. Lebron is perhaps past his prime and the "King" is no longer as powerful.
But As I have discussed before, sometimes its the opponent that is even greater.
"Goat" has many meanings. Statistical anomaly would put Chamberlin at the top. ALl time scoring? Jabbar. Chips? Russell. When we get to Jordan, we get subjective and place a high priority on the "Never lost a chip series". 6 is a great number, the other playoff "Failures" happened in rounds earlier than the Finals. Lebron played in more finals than Jordan. Jordan "Only" played in 6. LOL!!!!! When worded that way, does it tarnish Jordan? Perhaps only if you hate him.
Pippen and Rodman for all time great's. HOF players, top 50 all time. Everything is relative.
Last year's finals he played with no guy Tristan Thompson and averaged the following.
35.8pts 13.3rbs 8.8ass 1.3 blocks
Jordan nor Kobe could have won that NBA finals nor against the Spurs. Kobe would have missed the playoffs with that team.
This series he has not played well.
24.8pts 11rbs 8.7pts 1.8blks 2.3stls
vs
21.5pts 5rbs 4.8ass 1stls
Curry is somehow absolved...
MS wrote:Pippen and Rodman for all time great's. HOF players, top 50 all time. Everything is relative.Last year's finals he played with no guy Tristan Thompson and averaged the following.
35.8pts 13.3rbs 8.8ass 1.3 blocks
Jordan nor Kobe could have won that NBA finals nor against the Spurs. Kobe would have missed the playoffs with that team.
This series he has not played well.
24.8pts 11rbs 8.7pts 1.8blks 2.3stls
vs
21.5pts 5rbs 4.8ass 1stls
Curry is somehow absolved...
Yeah, and Jordan or Kobe couldn't have put up that kind of production either.
MS wrote:Pippen and Rodman for all time great's. HOF players, top 50 all time. Everything is relative.Last year's finals he played with no guy Tristan Thompson and averaged the following.
35.8pts 13.3rbs 8.8ass 1.3 blocks
Jordan nor Kobe could have won that NBA finals nor against the Spurs. Kobe would have missed the playoffs with that team.
This series he has not played well.
24.8pts 11rbs 8.7pts 1.8blks 2.3stls
vs
21.5pts 5rbs 4.8ass 1stls
Curry is somehow absolved...
This is correct. I hate how people pull Kobe into this mix of these types of conversations like he could have competed with this group. He is not at the level of Jordan or LeBron. What LeBron did was incredible. Only Jordan could come close to that type of production. Kobe doesn't even belong in the conversation. He missed the playoffs in his prime with better supporting casts.
But Melo is a King... 2016 Puerto Rican Day Parade King!!!
Bonn1997 wrote:MS wrote:Pippen and Rodman for all time great's. HOF players, top 50 all time. Everything is relative.Last year's finals he played with no guy Tristan Thompson and averaged the following.
35.8pts 13.3rbs 8.8ass 1.3 blocks
Jordan nor Kobe could have won that NBA finals nor against the Spurs. Kobe would have missed the playoffs with that team.
This series he has not played well.
24.8pts 11rbs 8.7pts 1.8blks 2.3stls
vs
21.5pts 5rbs 4.8ass 1stls
Curry is somehow absolved...
Yeah, and Jordan or Kobe couldn't have put up that kind of production either.
jordan, not so sure i would agree he didnt/couldnt put up close or in some cases better stats. he still has the finals ppg record at 41 (8.5rbs, 6.3ast) vs phx. his first finals: 31, 11ast, 6.6rbs, 1.4blks.
sidsanders wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:MS wrote:Pippen and Rodman for all time great's. HOF players, top 50 all time. Everything is relative.Last year's finals he played with no guy Tristan Thompson and averaged the following.
35.8pts 13.3rbs 8.8ass 1.3 blocks
Jordan nor Kobe could have won that NBA finals nor against the Spurs. Kobe would have missed the playoffs with that team.
This series he has not played well.
24.8pts 11rbs 8.7pts 1.8blks 2.3stls
vs
21.5pts 5rbs 4.8ass 1stls
Curry is somehow absolved...
Yeah, and Jordan or Kobe couldn't have put up that kind of production either.
jordan, not so sure i would agree he didnt/couldnt put up close or in some cases better stats. he still has the finals ppg record at 41 (8.5rbs, 6.3ast) vs phx. his first finals: 31, 11ast, 6.6rbs, 1.4blks.
Hmmm. I didn't realize he averaged 11 assists a game for a series. I see he had some years where his rebounding stats were better than I thought too. I guess I should have just said Kobe.
And even if Lebron isn't the king of the game right now, he's definitely king of this century.
Bonn1997 wrote:sidsanders wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:MS wrote:Pippen and Rodman for all time great's. HOF players, top 50 all time. Everything is relative.Last year's finals he played with no guy Tristan Thompson and averaged the following.
35.8pts 13.3rbs 8.8ass 1.3 blocks
Jordan nor Kobe could have won that NBA finals nor against the Spurs. Kobe would have missed the playoffs with that team.
This series he has not played well.
24.8pts 11rbs 8.7pts 1.8blks 2.3stls
vs
21.5pts 5rbs 4.8ass 1stls
Curry is somehow absolved...
Yeah, and Jordan or Kobe couldn't have put up that kind of production either.
jordan, not so sure i would agree he didnt/couldnt put up close or in some cases better stats. he still has the finals ppg record at 41 (8.5rbs, 6.3ast) vs phx. his first finals: 31, 11ast, 6.6rbs, 1.4blks.
Hmmm. I didn't realize he averaged 11 assists a game for a series. I see he had some years where his rebounding stats were better than I thought too. I guess I should have just said Kobe.
Jordan is underrated when it comes to other aspects of his game. I think Curry is underrated in that respect too. HE was not the defensive player Jordan was but people overlook his passing and especially rebounding.
P.S.
Jordan's TS% in his 1st three titles is incredible when you think about his massive usg%
Also, his 1st title averages were not so shabby either.
1991 Finals: 31.2 pts, 6.6 reb, 11.4 ast, 2.8 stls, 1.4 blks 55.8% FG
Hard to compare scoring avgs when it comes to LeBron and Jordan. Jordan averaged exactly what he needed to go 6-0 in the finals. If he had to do more to seal the deal, Im sure he could have.
41 points, 16 rebs, 7 assists, 3 steals, and 3 freakin blocks for shytty james
putting kobe in the convo is silly
In the finals, he's at 28 PPG, 12 RPG, 8 APG, and 2+ Blks and Stls.
MS wrote:Pippen and Rodman for all time great's. HOF players, top 50 all time. Everything is relative.Last year's finals he played with no guy Tristan Thompson and averaged the following.
35.8pts 13.3rbs 8.8ass 1.3 blocks
Jordan nor Kobe could have won that NBA finals nor against the Spurs. Kobe would have missed the playoffs with that team.
This series he has not played well.
24.8pts 11rbs 8.7pts 1.8blks 2.3stls
vs
21.5pts 5rbs 4.8ass 1stls
Curry is somehow absolved...
Um, that's a gross overstatement. You want to blame injuries for last year... ok. But to call Lebron a victim when he handpicked his team is nuts. He had his team trade 2 number 1 picks to get Love. Other players might get the 'look at who he played with' excuse. But Lebron has colluded and cherry picked his squad since the day he took his talents to South Beach and all the way back. It's like the top guy at the asphalt picking his team. And he has been a prima donna in how he handles it. So, no, I will not give sympathy for Lebron cause he had no one to run with. That's just factually inaccurate.
sidsanders wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:MS wrote:Pippen and Rodman for all time great's. HOF players, top 50 all time. Everything is relative.Last year's finals he played with no guy Tristan Thompson and averaged the following.
35.8pts 13.3rbs 8.8ass 1.3 blocks
Jordan nor Kobe could have won that NBA finals nor against the Spurs. Kobe would have missed the playoffs with that team.
This series he has not played well.
24.8pts 11rbs 8.7pts 1.8blks 2.3stls
vs
21.5pts 5rbs 4.8ass 1stls
Curry is somehow absolved...
Yeah, and Jordan or Kobe couldn't have put up that kind of production either.
jordan, not so sure i would agree he didnt/couldnt put up close or in some cases better stats. he still has the finals ppg record at 41 (8.5rbs, 6.3ast) vs phx. his first finals: 31, 11ast, 6.6rbs, 1.4blks.
I think if you look at pace adjusted numbers you will find support for your arguments. Lebron is still special though.
Lebron has been king of this generation. Jordan reigned over his.
When you go to the finals 7 times in 10 years, your the king.
Nalod wrote:Lebron has been king of this generation. Jordan reigned over his.
When you go to the finals 7 times in 10 years, your the king.
LeBron is the best of this generation hands down. I have respect for his talent I still think if in West he gets to only 2 finals. He might have two titles and some conference appearances. The out come of his finals appearances is more about the state of the east than his ability to get to the finals. Choosing destinations seems more like NBA Marketing scam more than anything else.
Vmart wrote:Nalod wrote:Lebron has been king of this generation. Jordan reigned over his.
When you go to the finals 7 times in 10 years, your the king.
LeBron is the best of this generation hands down. I have respect for his talent I still think if in West he gets to only 2 finals. He might have two titles and some conference appearances. The out come of his finals appearances is more about the state of the east than his ability to get to the finals. Choosing destinations seems more like NBA Marketing scam more than anything else.
Ok, but what team is he in the west? Its not like he is his own franchise! He exercised his right to move to Miami and then back to Cleveland. Jordan was not the "King" until he was in his late 20's and winning championships. If he was with a franchise that he could not wake up and think he could win with ever day, based on his personality I could see him wanting to move to another city.
He was also paid very well!!
But what city? What if he was drafted by Seattle/OKC instead of Durant? Or in Portland instead of Oden? What if that franchise built around him via draft? What if Portland's owner realized what a dick he was and that he'd lose him for nothing decided to trade him?
The notion of "Out west" has way too many variables. Have at it though and see if you can create one.
Vmart wrote:Nalod wrote:Lebron has been king of this generation. Jordan reigned over his.
When you go to the finals 7 times in 10 years, your the king.
LeBron is the best of this generation hands down. I have respect for his talent I still think if in West he gets to only 2 finals. He might have two titles and some conference appearances. The out come of his finals appearances is more about the state of the east than his ability to get to the finals. Choosing destinations seems more like NBA Marketing scam more than anything else.
He might not even have a ring if he's out west conceivably. Going against OKC and San Antonio and the 2 LA teams(when the Lakers were good). He might be ringless if not for cruising through the East, year after year.
ChuckBuck wrote:Vmart wrote:Nalod wrote:Lebron has been king of this generation. Jordan reigned over his.
When you go to the finals 7 times in 10 years, your the king.
LeBron is the best of this generation hands down. I have respect for his talent I still think if in West he gets to only 2 finals. He might have two titles and some conference appearances. The out come of his finals appearances is more about the state of the east than his ability to get to the finals. Choosing destinations seems more like NBA Marketing scam more than anything else.
He might not even have a ring if he's out west conceivably. Going against OKC and San Antonio and the 2 LA teams(when the Lakers were good). He might be ringless if not for cruising through the East, year after year.
What are you thiking. The "Tulsa Lebrons". Lebron plays 1 on 5 and has his own team?
Use some imagination. Say Lebron was drafted the year before, that was the Rockets picking Ming. Say Lebron is there. Now, do you think they do the same trade to get Mcrady? Or they go in another direction?
I say they do, using assets for that trade in another capacity. Obviously, everything changes.
Even you understand that time and events can't always be repeated or reconstructed as the same.
So Lebron on Rockets perhaps changes every thing. Lebron if he made his way to Los Angeles might have embraced a relationship with Dr. Buss and formed a partnership of trust and he stays. At the time, Kobe was very uncoachable and perhaps a trade happens. Variables, they count.
