Knicks · How do you rate our new additions in comparison to your expectations? (page 4)
Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:mreinman wrote:fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?for starters, don't make the rose trade. undo that and we are in B territory.
So you wouldn't want to trade for this?
Nix - where did you get the 51% on drives figure? It seems inconsistent with the above info. I guess maybe he's 51% on drives and very low on other shots in the paint?
Just because a shot happens inside doesn't mean it came on a Drive, which is a very specific thing.
Player Team GP W L MIN DRIVES FGM FGA FG% FTM FTA FT% PTS PTS% PASS PASS% AST AST% TO TO% PF PF%
Derrick Rose CHI 66 32 34 31.8 8.9 2.8 5.5 51.0 1.3 1.7 76.1 6.9 76.9 2.1 23.3 0.6 6.5 0.6 7.1 1.0 11.5http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/...
In Hornacek's spread style of offense I expect that Rose will find it easier to get into the paint and he can be more efficient with less traffic and defenders to protect the rim. Melo and KP can run High PnR and otherwise space the floor with Lee and allow Rose to be more successful. Especially when the Knicks go small with KP at Center.
OK, that's what I thought. Hopefully Rose and Melo cut out the low percentage contested shots they've been taking.
Hornacek's entire focus is on his players efficiency and he's going to put them in positions where the shots they take are almost forced to be higher % shots. IMO you have to help your players to understand what you want. He's not really looking to push mid range shots but instead keep forcing teams into bad choices that leave great shots at the rim or from 3 that come in rhythm and with enough space to be more successful. He's proven that he can create those kinds of looks with his schemes. That's what excites me the most about Hornacek as the Coach. He's clear minded about what he is looking to do with the team and how he wants them to play. He's Ultra Focused on Efficiency. He'll nitpick about bad shots more than a coach that isn't so focused on that. I believe it will make a difference.Well hopefully it will work better for Rose than it did for Brandon Knight under Hornacek. I like Hornacek but sometimes players are who they are.
Yeah, I would actually say players usually are who they are
That can be true but when was Brandon Knight EVER able to play at the level Rose has at least shown he's capable when he was fully healthy and in top form? Rose has shown in the past that he could shoot more efficiently than he did last season. He did have the Eye issue this season along with not being able to work on his shooting as he needed and any player needs in order to be sharp. Rose did pick up his shooting efficiency during the season which isn't the final verdict on just how much better he can get in that regard. So IMO it's very probable that Rose will be a more efficient scorer and shooter next season.His knees are always going to be a ticking time bomb of sorts. Not so much the ACL but the Meniscus tears that had to be cleaned up. That is Cartilage and so IMO that is the more serious concern for him. We don't know exactly where the tears were and how serious they are. The Knicks sent Derrick to the Hospital for Special Surgery in NYC to take a look at his knees and were reportedly "extremely happy". In the end that's all anyone can do.
The year he was traded to Phoenix, in Mil he has an TS% of 55.6% which was slightly higher than Rose's MVP year. That MVP just so happen to be rose's only efficient year.
The real issue is why didn't Rose get to the line and what happen to his defense last year.
TS%? Yes in that one sense he was on par with Rose, but in terms of overall impact I don't think many are gonna be singing Knights praises. Rose is even now a much more feared player with the ball in his hands.Rose works too hard to avoid contact. He's always twisting and turning his body to avoid the foul, which he should not be doing but it's a habit he's doing almost unconsciously at this point. I doubt he will change that behavior. For me the important thing is for Rose to help push the pace and aggressiveness of this team. Being on the attack nearly constantly will have a very positive impact beyond his shooting %. I'm not sure people are grasping how that will change the way this team plays and how other teams defense can be disrupted.
Rose 8.9 Drives at 51%
Jose 2.2 Drives at 49%
Afflalo 2.2 Drives at 42%
Gallo 1.3 Drives at 48%
Grant 3.5 Drives at 46%I expect that Rose will find it a bit easier to get driving lanes under Hornacek. He has a very unique focus on creating the space his guards need. Now he has the talent on the Knicks to really create that space with Melo, KP and Lee out there and particularly when they go with KP at Center and add another scorer in place of Noah.
There's more to the game than just drives though. If you take his overall #s (6.8 out of 15.9 shots a game) and subtract the drives (2.8 out of 5.5), apparently he shot .385 on non-drives, and that's twice as many attempts as his drives. You could say that will be better next year too, but it needs to be A LOT better. Or hopefully it will be a much lower number. I don't want a player shooting over ten times a game from spots where he hits at less than 39% of the time.
Once again this is where coaching comes in. A lot of this is about the spots players end up in due to the design and focus of the offensive scheme. How Hornacek chooses to use Rose will have a huge impact on his efficiency. It will also help to have talent like Melo and KP out there that teams will have to be concerned with at all times.Just for clarity, a lot of the poor shooting last year came from his issues early on with his eyes. He had better shooting after his rough start and I believe he'll come into the season better than last year when he had vision problems. It's not that hard to believe he could come in with better conditioning and sharper shooting than he did last year with the Eye injury.
Month GP MIN FGM FGA FG% 3PM 3PA 3P% FTM FTA FT%
October 3 32.1 5.7 15.3 37.0 0.0 1.3 0.0 2.3 3.0 77.8
November 10 32.7 5.4 15.3 35.3 0.6 2.6 23.1 1.9 2.4 79.2
December 14 32.9 6.4 15.4 41.4 0.7 2.5 28.6 1.9 2.8 66.7
January 13 30.4 7.4 15.7 47.1 0.5 1.8 29.2 2.3 2.4 96.8
February 8 33.1 8.5 19.4 43.9 0.8 2.4 31.6 4.1 4.9 84.6
March 15 30.0 7.1 15.3 46.1 1.0 2.5 40.5 1.5 2.1 71.0
April 3 34.3 5.7 15.0 37.8 0.0 1.7 0.0 1.7 2.0 83.3
He had better shooting but not good shooting. I calculated his TS% during that improved stretch a while ago and it was .515 (about 30 points below the league average). He needs to do better than he did during this better portion of last year. I'm not saying it can't happen but I don't expect best case scenarios to unfold in general and I definitely don't with this organization. We'll see. Yeah, it's possible, Nix.
I'm attempting to put things in perspective. I don't look at things in a vacuum. I agree Rose's shooting wasn't anything special, but it was progress and that was during the season when it's harder to make that kind of progress. He will have had a FULL offseason to work on his conditioning and shooting technique.
Keep this in mind when looking at Rose's shooting last season. The 1st day of practice and he suffers his injury:
Chicago Bulls guard Derrick Rose suffered an orbital fracture after being elbowed in the face during practice Tuesday and will require surgery. A timetable for his recovery and return is expected after surgery is complete on Wednesday.Rose averaged 17.7 points and 4.9 assists last season but missed 31 games in part due to another knee procedure midseason.
If you can't understand how that combination of injuries and missed time could negatively impact his shooting when he came back wearing the mask then I don't know what to say. That would seem to me that you are unwilling to imagine that it set him back and that he's more than capable of improving with a full season of work. He's not coming off of any surgery this summer which should help him tremendously in preparing for next season!!! He hasn't been able to do that in years. I do not accept that this is simply who he is not because i'm not going to ignore the extenuation circumstances of surgeries setting back his ability to work on his conditioning and skills.
Also, on this Knicks team he'll have much better support IMO. He didn't have a Melo or KP for that matter. That will make a difference for him and his presence will help them as teams are much more distracted defensively.
nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:mreinman wrote:fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?for starters, don't make the rose trade. undo that and we are in B territory.
So you wouldn't want to trade for this?
Nix - where did you get the 51% on drives figure? It seems inconsistent with the above info. I guess maybe he's 51% on drives and very low on other shots in the paint?
Just because a shot happens inside doesn't mean it came on a Drive, which is a very specific thing.
Player Team GP W L MIN DRIVES FGM FGA FG% FTM FTA FT% PTS PTS% PASS PASS% AST AST% TO TO% PF PF%
Derrick Rose CHI 66 32 34 31.8 8.9 2.8 5.5 51.0 1.3 1.7 76.1 6.9 76.9 2.1 23.3 0.6 6.5 0.6 7.1 1.0 11.5http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/...
In Hornacek's spread style of offense I expect that Rose will find it easier to get into the paint and he can be more efficient with less traffic and defenders to protect the rim. Melo and KP can run High PnR and otherwise space the floor with Lee and allow Rose to be more successful. Especially when the Knicks go small with KP at Center.
OK, that's what I thought. Hopefully Rose and Melo cut out the low percentage contested shots they've been taking.
Hornacek's entire focus is on his players efficiency and he's going to put them in positions where the shots they take are almost forced to be higher % shots. IMO you have to help your players to understand what you want. He's not really looking to push mid range shots but instead keep forcing teams into bad choices that leave great shots at the rim or from 3 that come in rhythm and with enough space to be more successful. He's proven that he can create those kinds of looks with his schemes. That's what excites me the most about Hornacek as the Coach. He's clear minded about what he is looking to do with the team and how he wants them to play. He's Ultra Focused on Efficiency. He'll nitpick about bad shots more than a coach that isn't so focused on that. I believe it will make a difference.Well hopefully it will work better for Rose than it did for Brandon Knight under Hornacek. I like Hornacek but sometimes players are who they are.
Yeah, I would actually say players usually are who they are
That can be true but when was Brandon Knight EVER able to play at the level Rose has at least shown he's capable when he was fully healthy and in top form? Rose has shown in the past that he could shoot more efficiently than he did last season. He did have the Eye issue this season along with not being able to work on his shooting as he needed and any player needs in order to be sharp. Rose did pick up his shooting efficiency during the season which isn't the final verdict on just how much better he can get in that regard. So IMO it's very probable that Rose will be a more efficient scorer and shooter next season.His knees are always going to be a ticking time bomb of sorts. Not so much the ACL but the Meniscus tears that had to be cleaned up. That is Cartilage and so IMO that is the more serious concern for him. We don't know exactly where the tears were and how serious they are. The Knicks sent Derrick to the Hospital for Special Surgery in NYC to take a look at his knees and were reportedly "extremely happy". In the end that's all anyone can do.
The year he was traded to Phoenix, in Mil he has an TS% of 55.6% which was slightly higher than Rose's MVP year. That MVP just so happen to be rose's only efficient year.
The real issue is why didn't Rose get to the line and what happen to his defense last year.
TS%? Yes in that one sense he was on par with Rose, but in terms of overall impact I don't think many are gonna be singing Knights praises. Rose is even now a much more feared player with the ball in his hands.Rose works too hard to avoid contact. He's always twisting and turning his body to avoid the foul, which he should not be doing but it's a habit he's doing almost unconsciously at this point. I doubt he will change that behavior. For me the important thing is for Rose to help push the pace and aggressiveness of this team. Being on the attack nearly constantly will have a very positive impact beyond his shooting %. I'm not sure people are grasping how that will change the way this team plays and how other teams defense can be disrupted.
Rose 8.9 Drives at 51%
Jose 2.2 Drives at 49%
Afflalo 2.2 Drives at 42%
Gallo 1.3 Drives at 48%
Grant 3.5 Drives at 46%I expect that Rose will find it a bit easier to get driving lanes under Hornacek. He has a very unique focus on creating the space his guards need. Now he has the talent on the Knicks to really create that space with Melo, KP and Lee out there and particularly when they go with KP at Center and add another scorer in place of Noah.
There's more to the game than just drives though. If you take his overall #s (6.8 out of 15.9 shots a game) and subtract the drives (2.8 out of 5.5), apparently he shot .385 on non-drives, and that's twice as many attempts as his drives. You could say that will be better next year too, but it needs to be A LOT better. Or hopefully it will be a much lower number. I don't want a player shooting over ten times a game from spots where he hits at less than 39% of the time.
Once again this is where coaching comes in. A lot of this is about the spots players end up in due to the design and focus of the offensive scheme. How Hornacek chooses to use Rose will have a huge impact on his efficiency. It will also help to have talent like Melo and KP out there that teams will have to be concerned with at all times.Just for clarity, a lot of the poor shooting last year came from his issues early on with his eyes. He had better shooting after his rough start and I believe he'll come into the season better than last year when he had vision problems. It's not that hard to believe he could come in with better conditioning and sharper shooting than he did last year with the Eye injury.
Month GP MIN FGM FGA FG% 3PM 3PA 3P% FTM FTA FT%
October 3 32.1 5.7 15.3 37.0 0.0 1.3 0.0 2.3 3.0 77.8
November 10 32.7 5.4 15.3 35.3 0.6 2.6 23.1 1.9 2.4 79.2
December 14 32.9 6.4 15.4 41.4 0.7 2.5 28.6 1.9 2.8 66.7
January 13 30.4 7.4 15.7 47.1 0.5 1.8 29.2 2.3 2.4 96.8
February 8 33.1 8.5 19.4 43.9 0.8 2.4 31.6 4.1 4.9 84.6
March 15 30.0 7.1 15.3 46.1 1.0 2.5 40.5 1.5 2.1 71.0
April 3 34.3 5.7 15.0 37.8 0.0 1.7 0.0 1.7 2.0 83.3
He had better shooting but not good shooting. I calculated his TS% during that improved stretch a while ago and it was .515 (about 30 points below the league average). He needs to do better than he did during this better portion of last year. I'm not saying it can't happen but I don't expect best case scenarios to unfold in general and I definitely don't with this organization. We'll see. Yeah, it's possible, Nix.
I'm attempting to put things in perspective. I don't look at things in a vacuum. I agree Rose's shooting wasn't anything special, but it was progress and that was during the season when it's harder to make that kind of progress. He will have had a FULL offseason to work on his conditioning and shooting technique.Keep this in mind when looking at Rose's shooting last season. The 1st day of practice and he suffers his injury:
Chicago Bulls guard Derrick Rose suffered an orbital fracture after being elbowed in the face during practice Tuesday and will require surgery. A timetable for his recovery and return is expected after surgery is complete on Wednesday.Rose averaged 17.7 points and 4.9 assists last season but missed 31 games in part due to another knee procedure midseason.
If you can't understand how that combination of injuries and missed time could negatively impact his shooting when he came back wearing the mask then I don't know what to say. That would seem to me that you are unwilling to imagine that it set him back and that he's more than capable of improving with a full season of work. He's not coming off of any surgery this summer which should help him tremendously in preparing for next season!!! He hasn't been able to do that in years. I do not accept that this is simply who he is not because i'm not going to ignore the extenuation circumstances of surgeries setting back his ability to work on his conditioning and skills.
Also, on this Knicks team he'll have much better support IMO. He didn't have a Melo or KP for that matter. That will make a difference for him and his presence will help them as teams are much more distracted defensively.
Oh I can imagine anything. I can imagine that he is better than his MVP year. The problem is that an extensive injury history usually doesn't predict future improvement. It usually predicts more injuries.
Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:mreinman wrote:fishmike wrote:mreinman, dk... who are the guys Phil should have targeted that would have improved your offseason grades?for starters, don't make the rose trade. undo that and we are in B territory.
So you wouldn't want to trade for this?
Nix - where did you get the 51% on drives figure? It seems inconsistent with the above info. I guess maybe he's 51% on drives and very low on other shots in the paint?
Just because a shot happens inside doesn't mean it came on a Drive, which is a very specific thing.
Player Team GP W L MIN DRIVES FGM FGA FG% FTM FTA FT% PTS PTS% PASS PASS% AST AST% TO TO% PF PF%
Derrick Rose CHI 66 32 34 31.8 8.9 2.8 5.5 51.0 1.3 1.7 76.1 6.9 76.9 2.1 23.3 0.6 6.5 0.6 7.1 1.0 11.5http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/...
In Hornacek's spread style of offense I expect that Rose will find it easier to get into the paint and he can be more efficient with less traffic and defenders to protect the rim. Melo and KP can run High PnR and otherwise space the floor with Lee and allow Rose to be more successful. Especially when the Knicks go small with KP at Center.
OK, that's what I thought. Hopefully Rose and Melo cut out the low percentage contested shots they've been taking.
Hornacek's entire focus is on his players efficiency and he's going to put them in positions where the shots they take are almost forced to be higher % shots. IMO you have to help your players to understand what you want. He's not really looking to push mid range shots but instead keep forcing teams into bad choices that leave great shots at the rim or from 3 that come in rhythm and with enough space to be more successful. He's proven that he can create those kinds of looks with his schemes. That's what excites me the most about Hornacek as the Coach. He's clear minded about what he is looking to do with the team and how he wants them to play. He's Ultra Focused on Efficiency. He'll nitpick about bad shots more than a coach that isn't so focused on that. I believe it will make a difference.Well hopefully it will work better for Rose than it did for Brandon Knight under Hornacek. I like Hornacek but sometimes players are who they are.
Yeah, I would actually say players usually are who they are
That can be true but when was Brandon Knight EVER able to play at the level Rose has at least shown he's capable when he was fully healthy and in top form? Rose has shown in the past that he could shoot more efficiently than he did last season. He did have the Eye issue this season along with not being able to work on his shooting as he needed and any player needs in order to be sharp. Rose did pick up his shooting efficiency during the season which isn't the final verdict on just how much better he can get in that regard. So IMO it's very probable that Rose will be a more efficient scorer and shooter next season.His knees are always going to be a ticking time bomb of sorts. Not so much the ACL but the Meniscus tears that had to be cleaned up. That is Cartilage and so IMO that is the more serious concern for him. We don't know exactly where the tears were and how serious they are. The Knicks sent Derrick to the Hospital for Special Surgery in NYC to take a look at his knees and were reportedly "extremely happy". In the end that's all anyone can do.
The year he was traded to Phoenix, in Mil he has an TS% of 55.6% which was slightly higher than Rose's MVP year. That MVP just so happen to be rose's only efficient year.
The real issue is why didn't Rose get to the line and what happen to his defense last year.
TS%? Yes in that one sense he was on par with Rose, but in terms of overall impact I don't think many are gonna be singing Knights praises. Rose is even now a much more feared player with the ball in his hands.Rose works too hard to avoid contact. He's always twisting and turning his body to avoid the foul, which he should not be doing but it's a habit he's doing almost unconsciously at this point. I doubt he will change that behavior. For me the important thing is for Rose to help push the pace and aggressiveness of this team. Being on the attack nearly constantly will have a very positive impact beyond his shooting %. I'm not sure people are grasping how that will change the way this team plays and how other teams defense can be disrupted.
Rose 8.9 Drives at 51%
Jose 2.2 Drives at 49%
Afflalo 2.2 Drives at 42%
Gallo 1.3 Drives at 48%
Grant 3.5 Drives at 46%I expect that Rose will find it a bit easier to get driving lanes under Hornacek. He has a very unique focus on creating the space his guards need. Now he has the talent on the Knicks to really create that space with Melo, KP and Lee out there and particularly when they go with KP at Center and add another scorer in place of Noah.
There's more to the game than just drives though. If you take his overall #s (6.8 out of 15.9 shots a game) and subtract the drives (2.8 out of 5.5), apparently he shot .385 on non-drives, and that's twice as many attempts as his drives. You could say that will be better next year too, but it needs to be A LOT better. Or hopefully it will be a much lower number. I don't want a player shooting over ten times a game from spots where he hits at less than 39% of the time.
Once again this is where coaching comes in. A lot of this is about the spots players end up in due to the design and focus of the offensive scheme. How Hornacek chooses to use Rose will have a huge impact on his efficiency. It will also help to have talent like Melo and KP out there that teams will have to be concerned with at all times.Just for clarity, a lot of the poor shooting last year came from his issues early on with his eyes. He had better shooting after his rough start and I believe he'll come into the season better than last year when he had vision problems. It's not that hard to believe he could come in with better conditioning and sharper shooting than he did last year with the Eye injury.
Month GP MIN FGM FGA FG% 3PM 3PA 3P% FTM FTA FT%
October 3 32.1 5.7 15.3 37.0 0.0 1.3 0.0 2.3 3.0 77.8
November 10 32.7 5.4 15.3 35.3 0.6 2.6 23.1 1.9 2.4 79.2
December 14 32.9 6.4 15.4 41.4 0.7 2.5 28.6 1.9 2.8 66.7
January 13 30.4 7.4 15.7 47.1 0.5 1.8 29.2 2.3 2.4 96.8
February 8 33.1 8.5 19.4 43.9 0.8 2.4 31.6 4.1 4.9 84.6
March 15 30.0 7.1 15.3 46.1 1.0 2.5 40.5 1.5 2.1 71.0
April 3 34.3 5.7 15.0 37.8 0.0 1.7 0.0 1.7 2.0 83.3
He had better shooting but not good shooting. I calculated his TS% during that improved stretch a while ago and it was .515 (about 30 points below the league average). He needs to do better than he did during this better portion of last year. I'm not saying it can't happen but I don't expect best case scenarios to unfold in general and I definitely don't with this organization. We'll see. Yeah, it's possible, Nix.
I'm attempting to put things in perspective. I don't look at things in a vacuum. I agree Rose's shooting wasn't anything special, but it was progress and that was during the season when it's harder to make that kind of progress. He will have had a FULL offseason to work on his conditioning and shooting technique.Keep this in mind when looking at Rose's shooting last season. The 1st day of practice and he suffers his injury:
Chicago Bulls guard Derrick Rose suffered an orbital fracture after being elbowed in the face during practice Tuesday and will require surgery. A timetable for his recovery and return is expected after surgery is complete on Wednesday.Rose averaged 17.7 points and 4.9 assists last season but missed 31 games in part due to another knee procedure midseason.
If you can't understand how that combination of injuries and missed time could negatively impact his shooting when he came back wearing the mask then I don't know what to say. That would seem to me that you are unwilling to imagine that it set him back and that he's more than capable of improving with a full season of work. He's not coming off of any surgery this summer which should help him tremendously in preparing for next season!!! He hasn't been able to do that in years. I do not accept that this is simply who he is not because i'm not going to ignore the extenuation circumstances of surgeries setting back his ability to work on his conditioning and skills.
Also, on this Knicks team he'll have much better support IMO. He didn't have a Melo or KP for that matter. That will make a difference for him and his presence will help them as teams are much more distracted defensively.
Oh I can imagine anything. I can imagine that he is better than his MVP year. The problem is that an extensive injury history usually doesn't predict future improvement. It usually predicts more injuries.
It's easy to stick to the trope about being injured and that leading to more injury but in fact there have been MANY instances of players overcoming serious injury and getting back on track. ACL is such a scary sounding injury but modern techniques have been pretty successful. The Meniscus Tears concern me long term since that's actual cartilage that he needs. However, we can't know the extent of the tears or location. Was it a lot removed or a little?
2011-12 season playoffs, Rose tears his Left ACL
Misses all of 2012-13. misses 82 games
Comes back in 2013-14. November 2013 tears his Right Meniscus plays in only 10 games
Comes back in 2014-15. Feb 2015 tears Right Meniscus again plays in only 51 games
Comes back in 2015-16. Breaks his Orbital - plays in only 66 games
If you look at Rose's history, he's really only played in 127 out of a possible 328 regular season games! He's had 3 procedures but not a lot of wear and tear over the last 4 years. It's not like he's played a full 82 plus playoffs for 4 straight years and accumulating more wear. IMO people could be overstating the issues because of the missed games, but that doesn't mean the injury history will stop Rose from regaining his form.
The Knicks checked out Rose's Knees and were extremely happy with what they saw. It's possible that Rose can have a bounce back season with a full offseason of conditioning and skills work, minus having to deal with another recent surgery as he's had in the past seasons. He's yet another year removed from the surgery which is often when you see a player start to fully regain their conditioning and strength.