Knicks · Our Starting PG last year... (page 3)

The media has said that this team as reconfigured won't make the playoffs. Inherently biased i scoff that that. Yet baked into that assessment is that they figure Melo grows old, Rose can't bring it and Noah can't recover. Should they be wrong and the Knicks get into the second round of the playoffs, where scoring a bucket against tougher defenses in the 4th quarter or OT becomes a challenge, then Rose's instinct will be to take it to the hole and either get fouled or score or both. That's what he gets paid for, that's what made him a MVP and that's what Parker and so many guards wish they could do and why Phil brought him in---Cuz the Knicks don't go to the hole Cept Williams who is now gone. Here's to great surgeons and youth at 27!

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

Sangfroid wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Just saw this on twitter.

Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://twitter.com/NykInsider/status/765991401611866114

Click here to view the Tweet

Impressive tweet. The question going forward is, "Is he going to pass the ball to anyone?"

Having had a long time now to process this trade, I agree with the tweet -- I really can't believe we went from Jose Calderon to Derrick Rose either, even a Rose that may not be quite 100%. It's a huge upgrade, it really is. And I love the trade considering what we gave up -- we didn't overpay at all in my estimation, in fact WE were even the ones who got back a pick for a change (w/o giving up one) and added Holiday who I think is a rotation SG for us. We even covered ourselves at C with Noah and Willy H, a guy I'm personally very high on. Rose expires if it doesn't work out + his presence helped recruit some other good players..I mean seriously, there's little to no downside here. When we chose to resign Melo and build a team around him for the one more sustained run he probably has in him at near top performance, this is the type of offseason you envisioned Phil putting together. And after thinking it all through for awhile now, I think it was the right call and I'm getting pretty damn pumped up thinking about the possibilities and how good this could real be if things go well.

Just looking at the highlight reel linked to the tweet, I think D Rose is the type of guy you just give the ball to and let him do his thing. Let the man make plays. Can't impose any restrictions on him and his game I'm thinking (i.e. don't try to make him a pass-first guy, someone who dumps the ball off and runs to the corner, etc.). He's a special talent and I think he gets the year to show what we can do. I wanna hit the ground running with Rose. Bam--right from game 1! To me this is Rose's team now -- everyone else needs to play off him, including Melo and KP. I think that's how this should work. Rose is a scorer but he'll get everyone involved. He knows he can't do it all himself. I think he understands he's got a talented group here, hence the 'super team' comments that may have been a little misguided, but shit man, I love the confidence! How can you not? Esp. love how he's not backing off that statement.. I just feel if we try tinkering with his game, try to make him into something he's not--that's the wrong approach. Hopefully he's 100% or damn close to it. If so, we got a heck of a player here. One of the league's best. Even at < 100%, he's still a good player and in his prime mind you. Name the last PG we had better than Derrick Rose. I've been watching this team religiously since the early 80s pre Ewing and I can't think of anyone. That's how special this guy is when healthy. The man was looking good at times last season and the reports of how he's looked physically this offseason + his own confidence is all very encouraging. Gotta let him be him, though. I think that's the key. That's how we'll get the full effect and I want the full effect of D Rose. To me we've got one season to evaluate this experiment and make this work. Last thing I wanna see if Horn trying to change his game, make him a pass-first guy etc., and see that fail for 30 games, then say, OK F it--let's take the shackles off and let him be him. No way. Don't waste 30 games like that, you know what I mean? I dunno -- make any sense? What do you guys think?

i think your perspective is really sad and woefully misguided. "let rose be rose" is a recipe for underachievement with the added punishing of kp6 and his development trajectory. kp6 is the most important knickerbocker and this season should be focussed on allowing him to be all he can be.

you want rose to have a higher usage rate than kp6? you want rose to take 17-18 shots a game with a 50%TS? also, "letting rose be rose" is what brought about his injuries. the violent torsion his legs go through is due to his being allowed to palm the ball to change direction, and this has resulted in meniscus tears and an acl tear.

what you really want is for rose to somehow evolve into tony parker, someone who eventually managed to maintain his dribble after a few somewhat reckless seasons, developed his off hand and kept his head up, who took closer to 12 shots a game, and who played defense with desire.

as it is, rose plays a losing brand of basketball and doesn't make others around him better. so why advocate "letting rose be rose" then? it does not work.

below is a link to a side by side comparison of parker and rose. i encourage all students of the game to look at it carefully:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play...

Who do you feel would have been a better pick up at PG?

"point guard" is not really the issue for me, not with the triangle.

you look for a long player with defensive skills and a 3-point shot. a 21st century version of dennis johnson or ron harper. any guard, doesn't have to be a "point guard." we have enough offense in the frontcourt with melo and kp6 and noah. heck i'd even put vujacic or lance thomas back there with courtney lee. knicks need to be solid defensively at every position because defense travels.

the only advantage rose brings is pushing the ball in transition, which is great and definitely will help-- but it isn't enough.

I think the Knicks are going to resemble Hornacek's Suns his first year more then Rambis's Knicks. I think if the Knicks were playing Rambis/Jax triangle they wouldn't have traded for Rose and hired Hornacek. Unlike with Rambis/Fish I think Hornacek has been allowed to have a voice in what is going on and how the Knicks will play. Rose/Jennings appear like Hornacek guards more than triangle guards. Also, remember the link Martin posted to the insider that said the Knicks considered the Grant pick a mistake. I think if you are looking at how Rose will or won't fit in the triangle you missed the change in philosophy that has taken place with the Knicks.

Great points Crush! Also I have a problem with this repeated point dk7th seems convinced of:

dk7th wrote:the only advantage rose brings is pushing the ball in transition, which is great and definitely will help-- but it isn't enough.

How can you say the ONLY advantage Rose brings is in pushing the ball in transition? Clearly you are someone who has no idea what Derrick Rose can do. That's the only way to explain such a comment besides raging bias against Rose. He most certainly can do more than push the ball and you know this. Why do you have to blatantly LIE in order to try and make your point? It's not just annoying but really bad form to keep pushing this nonsense over and over when you know it's not true.

DK reposts the same stuff a lot. Recent examples include his recipe for Rose's success and his link to the bball reference comparison of Parker and Rose. Too bad there wasn't a stickied thread for his posts so he didn't have to paste the same thing repeatedly.

DK is a good poster. Lets face it if everything was 100 percent positive then it would be boring and the knicks would probably have a better record the past decade. I understand some peoples reluctance considering all the suffering we have endured

Having different opinions is one thing, but blatantly stretching the truth just to try and make your point is not necessary. This has nothing to do with the losing we as fans have had to endure. If you've got a point that's backed up by some kind of data then make the point and others will argue their take on the subject and post their supporting information.

dk7th has a great point about Rose's poor defense and even the fact that Rose is not a high efficiency shooter. He's got to improve in those areas. It's also true that Rose is still one of the best penetrating guards in the league and he's capable of doing pretty much everything you need a guard to do when he's on his game. Pairing Rose with high quality players like we have in this starting lineup should help him tremendously and help the team as a whole to perform at its best. Hornacek for sure will have plenty to work with in Rose and Jennings.

i don't know what you mean by "truth" but here are the facts:

1) he's involved in a sordid civil suit starting october 4th-- his 28th birthday and the first preseason game
2) rose's true shooting percentage is 51%, and it won't rise because he doesn't get to the line or shoot 3s
3) his usage is 28%, and his assist percentage 32%, for a ratio of .875:1, far higher than a pg and closer to a shooting guard... except he can't shoot
4) his assists per game have been trending down to about 4 per game for 30 minutes
5) he is ranked near the bottom of the league on defense, not just among point guards but ALL players, 449 out of 462.

All very valid points. It's not the entire picture of course but valid weak areas.

1. The Civil suit is unfortunate but it's really not relevant to how Rose plays basketball so...
2. TS% has been low but there is a chance for Rose to improve his efficiency. It's clear he was improving his game as the season progressed. His TS% was 46% before the All Star Break and 52.1% after the All Star Break. He can improve. I think Hornacek can help him to refine his game.
3. I expect his assist % to increase with the talent around him this season.
4. A large issue for Rose is who he plays with. It's clear that he passes most to the players he respects and trusts. He will pass the ball to this group of players because he respects and trusts them.
5. Rose on D was AWFUL last year. I can't imagine that he could play any worse than that. I do think it will help him to be playing with Lee, Noah and KP behind him. As a unit I think they could be solid defensively. Rose simply MUST step up his effort on D.

1.. You are kidding me right? No way you can use the ole "once i step inside these 4 lines" rationalization.
2.. You excel at conjecture, nixluva.
3.. Translation: Rose doesn't make others around him better, 1a
4.. Translation: Rose doesn't male others around him better, 1b
5.. If he doesn't carry his own load he hurts his teammates, and probably more than he helps them in other areas. See 2.., 3.., 4..

1. This isn't really about how Rose will play. It's just something you can use against Rose so you're bringing it up. None of us were there so I choose to keep my own moral judgements to myself on this one.

2. All you're doing is going with the TS% as if that's the whole story for Rose as a player offensively. I've posted PLENTY of proof that Rose does a LOT of things at a high level. I also think Rose is actually getting his game back, which you seem to assume is impossible but it's not.

3&4. You are making a TON of assumptions yourself. For one thing Rose has the ability to pass the ball at a high level. You will see that this season and then you'll simply fade into the background cuz there won't be anything to say.

5. Yes as I said Rose does have to improve his defense. It's also true that it matters who you play with. Defense at this level is a team game and this group should be able to defend well enough as a unit.

nixluva, last question on rose to you: does rose make others around him better? yes/no question

bonus question: do you want rose to be taking more shots than kp6?

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

Sangfroid wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Just saw this on twitter.

Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://twitter.com/NykInsider/status/765991401611866114

Click here to view the Tweet

Impressive tweet. The question going forward is, "Is he going to pass the ball to anyone?"

Having had a long time now to process this trade, I agree with the tweet -- I really can't believe we went from Jose Calderon to Derrick Rose either, even a Rose that may not be quite 100%. It's a huge upgrade, it really is. And I love the trade considering what we gave up -- we didn't overpay at all in my estimation, in fact WE were even the ones who got back a pick for a change (w/o giving up one) and added Holiday who I think is a rotation SG for us. We even covered ourselves at C with Noah and Willy H, a guy I'm personally very high on. Rose expires if it doesn't work out + his presence helped recruit some other good players..I mean seriously, there's little to no downside here. When we chose to resign Melo and build a team around him for the one more sustained run he probably has in him at near top performance, this is the type of offseason you envisioned Phil putting together. And after thinking it all through for awhile now, I think it was the right call and I'm getting pretty damn pumped up thinking about the possibilities and how good this could real be if things go well.

Just looking at the highlight reel linked to the tweet, I think D Rose is the type of guy you just give the ball to and let him do his thing. Let the man make plays. Can't impose any restrictions on him and his game I'm thinking (i.e. don't try to make him a pass-first guy, someone who dumps the ball off and runs to the corner, etc.). He's a special talent and I think he gets the year to show what we can do. I wanna hit the ground running with Rose. Bam--right from game 1! To me this is Rose's team now -- everyone else needs to play off him, including Melo and KP. I think that's how this should work. Rose is a scorer but he'll get everyone involved. He knows he can't do it all himself. I think he understands he's got a talented group here, hence the 'super team' comments that may have been a little misguided, but shit man, I love the confidence! How can you not? Esp. love how he's not backing off that statement.. I just feel if we try tinkering with his game, try to make him into something he's not--that's the wrong approach. Hopefully he's 100% or damn close to it. If so, we got a heck of a player here. One of the league's best. Even at < 100%, he's still a good player and in his prime mind you. Name the last PG we had better than Derrick Rose. I've been watching this team religiously since the early 80s pre Ewing and I can't think of anyone. That's how special this guy is when healthy. The man was looking good at times last season and the reports of how he's looked physically this offseason + his own confidence is all very encouraging. Gotta let him be him, though. I think that's the key. That's how we'll get the full effect and I want the full effect of D Rose. To me we've got one season to evaluate this experiment and make this work. Last thing I wanna see if Horn trying to change his game, make him a pass-first guy etc., and see that fail for 30 games, then say, OK F it--let's take the shackles off and let him be him. No way. Don't waste 30 games like that, you know what I mean? I dunno -- make any sense? What do you guys think?

i think your perspective is really sad and woefully misguided. "let rose be rose" is a recipe for underachievement with the added punishing of kp6 and his development trajectory. kp6 is the most important knickerbocker and this season should be focussed on allowing him to be all he can be.

you want rose to have a higher usage rate than kp6? you want rose to take 17-18 shots a game with a 50%TS? also, "letting rose be rose" is what brought about his injuries. the violent torsion his legs go through is due to his being allowed to palm the ball to change direction, and this has resulted in meniscus tears and an acl tear.

what you really want is for rose to somehow evolve into tony parker, someone who eventually managed to maintain his dribble after a few somewhat reckless seasons, developed his off hand and kept his head up, who took closer to 12 shots a game, and who played defense with desire.

as it is, rose plays a losing brand of basketball and doesn't make others around him better. so why advocate "letting rose be rose" then? it does not work.

below is a link to a side by side comparison of parker and rose. i encourage all students of the game to look at it carefully:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play...

Who do you feel would have been a better pick up at PG?

"point guard" is not really the issue for me, not with the triangle.

you look for a long player with defensive skills and a 3-point shot. a 21st century version of dennis johnson or ron harper. any guard, doesn't have to be a "point guard." we have enough offense in the frontcourt with melo and kp6 and noah. heck i'd even put vujacic or lance thomas back there with courtney lee. knicks need to be solid defensively at every position because defense travels.

the only advantage rose brings is pushing the ball in transition, which is great and definitely will help-- but it isn't enough.

I think the Knicks are going to resemble Hornacek's Suns his first year more then Rambis's Knicks. I think if the Knicks were playing Rambis/Jax triangle they wouldn't have traded for Rose and hired Hornacek. Unlike with Rambis/Fish I think Hornacek has been allowed to have a voice in what is going on and how the Knicks will play. Rose/Jennings appear like Hornacek guards more than triangle guards. Also, remember the link Martin posted to the insider that said the Knicks considered the Grant pick a mistake. I think if you are looking at how Rose will or won't fit in the triangle you missed the change in philosophy that has taken place with the Knicks.

Great points Crush! Also I have a problem with this repeated point dk7th seems convinced of:

dk7th wrote:the only advantage rose brings is pushing the ball in transition, which is great and definitely will help-- but it isn't enough.

How can you say the ONLY advantage Rose brings is in pushing the ball in transition? Clearly you are someone who has no idea what Derrick Rose can do. That's the only way to explain such a comment besides raging bias against Rose. He most certainly can do more than push the ball and you know this. Why do you have to blatantly LIE in order to try and make your point? It's not just annoying but really bad form to keep pushing this nonsense over and over when you know it's not true.

DK reposts the same stuff a lot. Recent examples include his recipe for Rose's success and his link to the bball reference comparison of Parker and Rose. Too bad there wasn't a stickied thread for his posts so he didn't have to paste the same thing repeatedly.

DK is a good poster. Lets face it if everything was 100 percent positive then it would be boring and the knicks would probably have a better record the past decade. I understand some peoples reluctance considering all the suffering we have endured

Having different opinions is one thing, but blatantly stretching the truth just to try and make your point is not necessary. This has nothing to do with the losing we as fans have had to endure. If you've got a point that's backed up by some kind of data then make the point and others will argue their take on the subject and post their supporting information.

dk7th has a great point about Rose's poor defense and even the fact that Rose is not a high efficiency shooter. He's got to improve in those areas. It's also true that Rose is still one of the best penetrating guards in the league and he's capable of doing pretty much everything you need a guard to do when he's on his game. Pairing Rose with high quality players like we have in this starting lineup should help him tremendously and help the team as a whole to perform at its best. Hornacek for sure will have plenty to work with in Rose and Jennings.

i don't know what you mean by "truth" but here are the facts:

1) he's involved in a sordid civil suit starting october 4th-- his 28th birthday and the first preseason game
2) rose's true shooting percentage is 51%, and it won't rise because he doesn't get to the line or shoot 3s
3) his usage is 28%, and his assist percentage 32%, for a ratio of .875:1, far higher than a pg and closer to a shooting guard... except he can't shoot
4) his assists per game have been trending down to about 4 per game for 30 minutes
5) he is ranked near the bottom of the league on defense, not just among point guards but ALL players, 449 out of 462.

All very valid points. It's not the entire picture of course but valid weak areas.

1. The Civil suit is unfortunate but it's really not relevant to how Rose plays basketball so...
2. TS% has been low but there is a chance for Rose to improve his efficiency. It's clear he was improving his game as the season progressed. His TS% was 46% before the All Star Break and 52.1% after the All Star Break. He can improve. I think Hornacek can help him to refine his game.
3. I expect his assist % to increase with the talent around him this season.
4. A large issue for Rose is who he plays with. It's clear that he passes most to the players he respects and trusts. He will pass the ball to this group of players because he respects and trusts them.
5. Rose on D was AWFUL last year. I can't imagine that he could play any worse than that. I do think it will help him to be playing with Lee, Noah and KP behind him. As a unit I think they could be solid defensively. Rose simply MUST step up his effort on D.

1.. You are kidding me right? No way you can use the ole "once i step inside these 4 lines" rationalization.
2.. You excel at conjecture, nixluva.
3.. Translation: Rose doesn't make others around him better, 1a
4.. Translation: Rose doesn't male others around him better, 1b
5.. If he doesn't carry his own load he hurts his teammates, and probably more than he helps them in other areas. See 2.., 3.., 4..

1. This isn't really about how Rose will play. It's just something you can use against Rose so you're bringing it up. None of us were there so I choose to keep my own moral judgements to myself on this one.

2. All you're doing is going with the TS% as if that's the whole story for Rose as a player offensively. I've posted PLENTY of proof that Rose does a LOT of things at a high level. I also think Rose is actually getting his game back, which you seem to assume is impossible but it's not.

3&4. You are making a TON of assumptions yourself. For one thing Rose has the ability to pass the ball at a high level. You will see that this season and then you'll simply fade into the background cuz there won't be anything to say.

5. Yes as I said Rose does have to improve his defense. It's also true that it matters who you play with. Defense at this level is a team game and this group should be able to defend well enough as a unit.

nixluva, last question on rose to you: does rose make others around him better? yes/no question

bonus question: do you want rose to be taking more shots than kp6?

can you please stop with the reporting/pasting of stuff you have already posted? You have had many responses to these questions, most recently here: http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=55006&page=4. Do you choose not to read them?

dk7th wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Nalod wrote:A Rose by any other name........

I disagree by letting him be who he is.....But, why not let the kid evolve as should most great players. If he is great then his true defining moment as a 22 year old MVP is to become more than what he was, and sometimes "Less is More"......
I agree, the kind of game he has had is a leg killer. Kyrie Irving has to come to grips with it, as did CP3. Deron Williams got hit too. Long list of great PG's who got cut down. Tiny Archibald and Phil Ford. To a far less extent, Ray Felton's body could not hold up to his youthful game.
Steve Nash is a great example of a guy who knew when to turn on the jets and then also preserve the thrust. His outside shot gave him the ability to get by his man because he must be guarded everywhere. I don't know all of Rose's weakness' but lets just say the ability is there and as such he must evolve with strong fundamentals to refine his game. KObe did it as did Jordan. If phil can get in his head and help him, there is a better Derrick Rose and one that could perhaps stay .healthier and be a better player. Maybe his scoring numbers will not come all the way back.
Lets look at the tools he has to play with also? KP6? If rose is gushing about "superteam" then it starts with him. How many 7'3 guys have the tools on offense and can protect the rim? And, we have a hyper athletic 5 so he does not have to carry the heavy load (Pray for his health). Then, Olympic Melo who im guessing now need not carry as heavy a load. Does Melo need to grind it to the rim often? maybe at his age no, but for all melo is not, he is one of the premier shooters in the league and in some situations he can be the third option!!!

1. Rose creates if the opportunity presents. Then go into offense.
2 Ball should go into KP
3 Then to Melo.........
4 Courtney Lee is the 4th option and can shoot.

Nothing guaranteed here, just fun to speculate and the intrigue of this potential. Knicks are interesting. That's a start.

As for Jose..........Who cares where he played on the Olympic team. Maybe he really did not want to play and was there as deep back up just in case and to assist with others.
Why kick him down, or even speculate as to why he was riding the pine. He is supporting his country on his own time. Personally, I like the guy and don't get the hate on him. Nobody really expected him to start or thought he should. IN fact, that is his assessment as well!!!! He was our best PG is a reflection on others who did not step up or knicks inability to get a better player, or the fact we were being patient. It paid off with the potential we got in Derrick Rose.

The trade at so many levels made sense. Basically would any of us have a problem if we "Traded" RoPez for Willy and Noah straight up? Right there is an upgrade at the position. With KP6 emerging, Ropez minutes could have falling a bit.

"Small ball" could have KP6 at the 5 and melo at the 4.

a sober and fair post. hell may be icing up a tinge.

I like the post but it's not realistic. I don't seed any way in hell that Melo's ego allows him to play the 3rd option.

Ialso see alot of repeat posts sounding all optimistic. People keep repeating themselves over and over and manage to convince themselves that injury risk is a lot lower than it is. People are so starved for success that they have allowed their brains to start manufacturing their own.

you are pessimistic, but melo has shown signs of growth intellectually and in terms of character. while once obtuse and oblivious, egocentric and greedy, there does seem to be a subtle shift away from that towards being there FOR others. although stupidly lionized by a fatuous press, i am not pessimistic or cynical, i am only skeptical, preferring to take a wait and see approach with him. that way i will manage my expectations and will only be happily surprised if he meets my expectations. you survive in this game by developing teamwork skills, and of course efficiency. i expect greater strides in these areas. this will require his ceding power and agenda to hornacek, who *should* tell him to make more plays for others and do less isolation stuff. the boon will be obvious-- he preserves his body while making others around him better.

Not pessimistic at all. Cynical to be sure. My experience of all things Melo has led me to a position of deep cynicism about him and his motives. I am still optimistic about the knicks almost in spite of Melo. I don't think everything in the future is dark and ominous (pessimism), I do think we should exercise a healthy dose of doubt and critical thinking around Melo's perceived change of behavior (Cynicism).