Knicks · Article: Knicks Should Tank In 2016-17 (page 2)
HofstraBBall wrote:dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:This is the kind of thing that makes real Knicks fans go Ape Nuts. I can understand the idea of hoping you can draft the next stud, but there's no way this team is going to actually lose enough to guarantee they land a top kid in next draft. How do we get the players to buy into not trying to win and how do we move Melo when he's got a No Trade? Also didn't like the joke about Hornacek's D not being good. He actually believes in the Thibs defensive philosophy. He's not MDA when it comes to defense.KnicksThis is a good time to discuss the 2017 draft and clarify a few things. There's already plenty of hype surrounding this incoming freshman class, and all of it's deserved. College basketball will be twice as fun this year. But looking at this through my draft nerd eyes, it's still too early to say how many franchise-altering players there are in this class. Most of the best prospects are point guards—Markelle Fultz (Washington), Dennis Smith (NC State), Frank Ntilikina (France), De'Aaron Fox (Kentucky), Lonzo Ball (UCLA)—and while great point guards are valuable, they won't immediately carry a team the way, say, Karl Towns might.
Beyond the guards, we also have a rich crop of intriguing wings with mysterious ceilings—Jayson Tatum (Duke), Josh Jackson (Kansas), Jonathan Isaac (Florida State), Miles Bridges (Michigan State), and Terrance Ferguson (Australia). Finally, there are big men like Harry Giles (Duke), Marques Bolden (also Duke), and Jarrett Allen (Texas).
All of these players are exciting draft prospects—Miles Bridges isn't quite as elite, but I need you to watch him dunk on his own mother—it's just important to manage expectations. For now, this class looks great because of it's full of potential All-Stars, not necessarily potential cornerstones. That's not a criticism; it's a reminder of how rare it is to find real franchise stars even in the best drafts.
And the Knicks already did that. Porzingis has everything. He's got the intangibles, he can protect the rim and score from the perimeter, he played his ass off despite being 30 pounds lighter than everyone he faced last year, and he's barely scratching the surface. He's someone to build around for the next decade.
This is why Knicks fans should be rooting for a slow start that turns into a midseason Melo trade and three months of losing. Somehow, this team already nailed the hardest part of tanking. Now they just need more help, and preferably help that's under the age of 30. Even if you're not sure about the superstars in this draft—Giles could be elite if healthy, Fultz looks incredible— there are potential All-Stars dotting the board that would be perfect running mates with Porzingis. So, forget the playoffs. Be smart, Knicks. Derrick Rose is ready to take 25 shots-a-game. Hornacek's defense could give up 110 points-a-night. They're warming the tanks up in Latvia. Let's make this happen.
it's a fact that the knicks are nowhere near contender status this upcoming season.
it's a fact that porzingis is the future of the franchise.
it's a fact that derrick rose is on a one-year contract and embroiled in a very ugly civil suit.
it's a fact that carmelo anthony will turn 33 shortly after the regular season ends.
it's my opinion that the knicks are at cross purposes in terms of the alleged win-now mandate with melo and the future with kp6 after melo.put these facts together and there is every justification to tank in order to garner more youth and talent in the backcourt. the knicks, barring major injuries to rose, noah, jennings or god forbid kp6, are going to be around 38-43 wins-- something that vegas oddsmakers and i agree on. they are not going to tank overtly, but there's good reason for doing so. who knows-- if melo doesn't like what's happening by the trade deadline he may request a trade, if indeed he is tradable. no shame in chasing a ring at this point in his career.
How is it a FACT that the Knicks are nowhere near a contender? Won't they have to play out the season to know that for sure?
KP is actually one of the very reasons to be optimistic about this coming season.
Why does the length of Rose's contract mean something negative to you? What does his civil suit have to do with his play on the court this year? You are making leaps of negativity from mundane facts.
Melo is getting older as all players will, but that doesn't mean he can't still be an effective player. Why are you harping on his age as if no one has ever won at his age. You realize that Lebron is basically the same age? Other NBA players have won at his age. So what's your point really?
KP is so young that these early years don't mean the team won't be able to get new talent down the line to play with him. Right now he's surrounded by vets with lots of experience and that can only help KP's development.
Please stop bringing up injury. Of course injury is always an issue for any team. That's not the most important factor to focus on with this team tho. It's a factor but not the only factor. We should all be praying for great health this year cuz if they are fully healthy they can really be in the mix in the East.
You really think that Melo is gonna ask for a trade at this point? You would have to have MASSIVE failure for that kind of change of heart IMO.
IMO Tanking is out of the question. This team may struggle but I think pride will keep them from falling so far that they have to think about tanking.
you either don't understand or wish to acknowledge the mathematics behind the odds. the oddsmakers are de facto mathematicians, and base their oddsmaking/predictions on statistical history.
what you're advocating is a dream-case scenario where the knicks defy or beat the odds. you are perfectly entitled to your fantasy but there is no getting around the facts upon which the odds are based.
that said, based on the odds of winning a title, the knicks are clumped together in 8th place with 5 other teams, at 80:1. so they are being rated somewhere between 13th-likeliest to as high as 8th-likeliest. sadly, as we all know, it's really only the top 5-6 teams that are actual contenders in any given year. anyone below that are not within smelling distance. this year the true contenders are:
golden state
cleveland
spurs
clippers
celtics
thunderhas it occurred to you that the longer rose allows his ugly civil suit to drag on, that the oddsmakers will make the knicks' odds longer than they are now? something to chew on.
I agree, every team not picked, by Vegas odd makers, to win it should just phone in the season and try to stock up as many "can't miss" young studs for the future. I mean what's the chances of a 1st round pick not becoming an impact player in the NBA? Perhaps refer that to your Las Vegas odd makers. You also forgot to mention the end of the world as we know it with the end of the Mayan calender. Oh wait, think that came and went.
How bout we play a few games before we give up on our Knicks? And your basically saying lets go back to 2001 thrpugh 2010? Cuz that was fun to watch. If your not excited about Rose instead of crippled Jose. Lee instead of no pass AA. Noah instead of Brook Lopez's bitch. And KP's second season. Then may be time to follow the boys in Brooklyn.
And agree with the posters bringing up how important it is for KP to be on a decent team. KP still has a lot to improve and work on before we crown him as the savior to the franchise. And the best way to do so is with a solid cast around him Not with a bunch of first year players. In the NBA, without the right development, players can go from "Unicorns" to Bargnanish real quick.
i appreciate the sarcasm, but you do realize i am not advocating they tank, right? i want them to compete and exceed my 38-43 win prediction. but that still doesn't bring them within smelling distance of a title, unless i am missing something.
what scenario do you see where they are contenders, a top 5 team in the nba?
mreinman wrote:Just wondering what would ever make you think that I don't read and listen to everything I can get my hands on about the Knicks? I know there is another side and I know the math behind it. But I don't see the glass half empty approach from fans before the season even starts.CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:Well said. I get cautious optimism. But I think there is a lot to get excited about. I really like the young guys that the Knicks brought in. I think NDour, and Willy have a shot at being good rotation level pros. I also think Noah was a great addition. Rose's trainer and his teammates have been extremely positive about how he is doing. I guess I don't get pushing that all aside to rag on the team I root for.jrodmc wrote:Knixkik wrote:jrodmc wrote:This sounds amazingly alot like a lovechild rant from Hinkie/ChuckyBooBoo:This is why Knicks fans should be rooting for a slow start that turns into a midseason Melo trade and three months of losing. Somehow, this team already nailed the hardest part of tanking. Now they just need more help, and preferably help that's under the age of 30. Even if you're not sure about the superstars in this draft—Giles could be elite if healthy, Fultz looks incredible— there are potential All-Stars dotting the board that would be perfect running mates with Porzingis. So, forget the playoffs. Be smart, Knicks. Derrick Rose is ready to take 25 shots-a-game. Hornacek's defense could give up 110 points-a-night. They're warming the tanks up in Latvia. Let's make this happen.So the Knicks, not the Sixers have nailed tanking. And we need more yoots. Lot's more yoots. Because KP6 want's nothing more than to lose, lose, lose. And a lineup with Noah and Porzingis are going to give up 110 points a night. Got ya.
When is this shit ever going to end? When the Sixers franchise decides to become the new NBDL team for Golden State?
This is the part i am glad you mention that everyone who wants to tank forgets about. Surrounding a young player with veterans who know how to win and giving yourself a chance to play in meaningful games (playoffs and/or late-season games to compete for playoffs) is the most important thing for a young player who you want to give the keys to the franchise. Not tank, tank, and more tank for a chance at some decent players along the same career timeline. You can be resourceful to add supporting players, draft well in the middle of the first round, and leave no stone unturned. Plus, trying to win is a lot more fun than trying to lose, at least for true fans. Good franchises (like the Spurs) do not need to tank to find good players in the draft, in free agency, and even those undrafted or overseas.
It's a fact that no one, outside of our favorite civil court suit defendant, is picking the Knicks to be instant contenders.
It's a fact that actual NBA analysts, who may just may more know more about the NBA than Vegas mathematicians, like JVG, Greg Anthony are picking the Knicks to make the playoffs.
It's a fact than anyone with anything approaching even a miniscule level of NBA IQ realizes that the Knicks back court and bench are vastly improved, younger, and not (at least in the case of the bench) a various collection of NBDL flotsam.
It's a fact that Phil invested a large sum to sign Noah, and this would not be consistent with the Hinkie model of franchise destruction.
It's a fact that we've been listening to the greatness of the tanking model regarding Philly for years, ever since they drafted MCW and then traded him away. It's a fact you can count their wins since without a calculator.
It's my opinion that what everyone was pining for during the early off-season, vastly improving the backcourt, has occurred. And without losing any further draft picks, either.But please, keep ignoring the words No Trade Clause, and keep plying the
1) "it's best for my personal pariah who's now outlived all the hoops I wanted him to jump through, to go somewhere else for his own good. Really, I want Melo to have a chip"
2) I love KP so much it makes my gonads shrivel up and die to think he might have some level of success with my personal pariah.
3) I really only want to watch AAU basketball, because I firmly believe that, despite all the evidence to the contrary, veterans are not good for sheehit.It never gets old, and it's great to know the bastions of negativity will always be there, serving a greater purpose for those of us who just love the Knicks more than our own fuhucking stupid opinions and idiotic fanboy versions of BB IQ, having never played, coached or even been a clerk in an NBA office.
Rock on, haters!
Makes me laugh! Have these guys even read anything KP has been saying. HE'S ECSTATIC to be playing with good players!!! I mean he isn't hoping to spend the next few years struggling to get wins and praying we strike gold again in the draft. If you have no choice but to lose because your team stinks and you have no way to improve, then you are fine with looking to the draft. The Knicks weren't in that situation. They already had Melo and he wasn't going anywhere, so the best thing to do is to improve the team around KP and help him to develop even faster.Because you don't get that there can possible another side to you view as a fan. If you read most outsiders takes + vegas predictions you will see that there are many issues factored into their predictions that you seem to be pushing aside. They don't brush by things like injury risks just like insurance underwriters don't ignore these things, and just like actuaries etc ... The silly statement of "but any team can have injuries" is beyond stupid and completely missing the boat. There are many question marks here for a reason. Can they beat the odds? Of course they can ANYBODY CAN BEAT ANY ODDS.
On the flip side, JVG picked the knicks to win close to fifty games and raved about Phil Jackson (though dissed the triangle) so that is interesting, but JVG is funny like that, especially with Phil. He is always playing poker when he talks about the knicks.
I am picking them to beat the vegas predictions though I am an optimistic homer so my opinion is biased. I do think that the knicks will have many injuries as predicted though. Most of my optimism is Hornacek. I hope that he is not handcuffed. And, I think that Lee and Jennings were very solid pickups. I don't think Rose will be here more than this season and I definitely don't think the Noah (who I adore) is gonna live up to his contract. I think that Melo will be a solid this year but continue with nagging injuries that will mess with his jump shot. KP can go either way ... He can breakout or have a sophomore slump. He is certainly no where near a star yet and his physique scares the hell out of me since guys that size are at a higher risk to injury. I really hope that Hornacek builds his game in a way that will limit his risk. These 3 point shot fakes and drives are suicide plays that can really get him hurt. I want him more as a spot up deep shooter or down low (depending on matchups) but I do NOT want him driving in traffic!
The knicks need to beat the odds but lets not be surprised that there are many questions around this team and that there is significant risk. Vegas has no interest in ragging on the knicks.
CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:Just wondering what would ever make you think that I don't read and listen to everything I can get my hands on about the Knicks? I know there is another side and I know the math behind it. But I don't see the glass half empty approach from fans before the season even starts.CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:Well said. I get cautious optimism. But I think there is a lot to get excited about. I really like the young guys that the Knicks brought in. I think NDour, and Willy have a shot at being good rotation level pros. I also think Noah was a great addition. Rose's trainer and his teammates have been extremely positive about how he is doing. I guess I don't get pushing that all aside to rag on the team I root for.jrodmc wrote:Knixkik wrote:jrodmc wrote:This sounds amazingly alot like a lovechild rant from Hinkie/ChuckyBooBoo:This is why Knicks fans should be rooting for a slow start that turns into a midseason Melo trade and three months of losing. Somehow, this team already nailed the hardest part of tanking. Now they just need more help, and preferably help that's under the age of 30. Even if you're not sure about the superstars in this draft—Giles could be elite if healthy, Fultz looks incredible— there are potential All-Stars dotting the board that would be perfect running mates with Porzingis. So, forget the playoffs. Be smart, Knicks. Derrick Rose is ready to take 25 shots-a-game. Hornacek's defense could give up 110 points-a-night. They're warming the tanks up in Latvia. Let's make this happen.So the Knicks, not the Sixers have nailed tanking. And we need more yoots. Lot's more yoots. Because KP6 want's nothing more than to lose, lose, lose. And a lineup with Noah and Porzingis are going to give up 110 points a night. Got ya.
When is this shit ever going to end? When the Sixers franchise decides to become the new NBDL team for Golden State?
This is the part i am glad you mention that everyone who wants to tank forgets about. Surrounding a young player with veterans who know how to win and giving yourself a chance to play in meaningful games (playoffs and/or late-season games to compete for playoffs) is the most important thing for a young player who you want to give the keys to the franchise. Not tank, tank, and more tank for a chance at some decent players along the same career timeline. You can be resourceful to add supporting players, draft well in the middle of the first round, and leave no stone unturned. Plus, trying to win is a lot more fun than trying to lose, at least for true fans. Good franchises (like the Spurs) do not need to tank to find good players in the draft, in free agency, and even those undrafted or overseas.
It's a fact that no one, outside of our favorite civil court suit defendant, is picking the Knicks to be instant contenders.
It's a fact that actual NBA analysts, who may just may more know more about the NBA than Vegas mathematicians, like JVG, Greg Anthony are picking the Knicks to make the playoffs.
It's a fact than anyone with anything approaching even a miniscule level of NBA IQ realizes that the Knicks back court and bench are vastly improved, younger, and not (at least in the case of the bench) a various collection of NBDL flotsam.
It's a fact that Phil invested a large sum to sign Noah, and this would not be consistent with the Hinkie model of franchise destruction.
It's a fact that we've been listening to the greatness of the tanking model regarding Philly for years, ever since they drafted MCW and then traded him away. It's a fact you can count their wins since without a calculator.
It's my opinion that what everyone was pining for during the early off-season, vastly improving the backcourt, has occurred. And without losing any further draft picks, either.But please, keep ignoring the words No Trade Clause, and keep plying the
1) "it's best for my personal pariah who's now outlived all the hoops I wanted him to jump through, to go somewhere else for his own good. Really, I want Melo to have a chip"
2) I love KP so much it makes my gonads shrivel up and die to think he might have some level of success with my personal pariah.
3) I really only want to watch AAU basketball, because I firmly believe that, despite all the evidence to the contrary, veterans are not good for sheehit.It never gets old, and it's great to know the bastions of negativity will always be there, serving a greater purpose for those of us who just love the Knicks more than our own fuhucking stupid opinions and idiotic fanboy versions of BB IQ, having never played, coached or even been a clerk in an NBA office.
Rock on, haters!
Makes me laugh! Have these guys even read anything KP has been saying. HE'S ECSTATIC to be playing with good players!!! I mean he isn't hoping to spend the next few years struggling to get wins and praying we strike gold again in the draft. If you have no choice but to lose because your team stinks and you have no way to improve, then you are fine with looking to the draft. The Knicks weren't in that situation. They already had Melo and he wasn't going anywhere, so the best thing to do is to improve the team around KP and help him to develop even faster.Because you don't get that there can possible another side to you view as a fan. If you read most outsiders takes + vegas predictions you will see that there are many issues factored into their predictions that you seem to be pushing aside. They don't brush by things like injury risks just like insurance underwriters don't ignore these things, and just like actuaries etc ... The silly statement of "but any team can have injuries" is beyond stupid and completely missing the boat. There are many question marks here for a reason. Can they beat the odds? Of course they can ANYBODY CAN BEAT ANY ODDS.
On the flip side, JVG picked the knicks to win close to fifty games and raved about Phil Jackson (though dissed the triangle) so that is interesting, but JVG is funny like that, especially with Phil. He is always playing poker when he talks about the knicks.
I am picking them to beat the vegas predictions though I am an optimistic homer so my opinion is biased. I do think that the knicks will have many injuries as predicted though. Most of my optimism is Hornacek. I hope that he is not handcuffed. And, I think that Lee and Jennings were very solid pickups. I don't think Rose will be here more than this season and I definitely don't think the Noah (who I adore) is gonna live up to his contract. I think that Melo will be a solid this year but continue with nagging injuries that will mess with his jump shot. KP can go either way ... He can breakout or have a sophomore slump. He is certainly no where near a star yet and his physique scares the hell out of me since guys that size are at a higher risk to injury. I really hope that Hornacek builds his game in a way that will limit his risk. These 3 point shot fakes and drives are suicide plays that can really get him hurt. I want him more as a spot up deep shooter or down low (depending on matchups) but I do NOT want him driving in traffic!
The knicks need to beat the odds but lets not be surprised that there are many questions around this team and that there is significant risk. Vegas has no interest in ragging on the knicks.
Its not half empty and its not half full. Its risk factors that are there. You don't even see that you always have a bias, and that is fine just recognize it. Again, vegas does not rag on the knicks and fans who have their own minds and beliefs are not ragging. "its so un american", sound familiar?
People who like every move are obviously just koolaid drinkers who just want to drink and people who hate every move are just silly haters with grudges.
Some like some moves and dislike others. Very few of these though and getting fewer. Yellow, Bonn, GB, Guns, Knickcity, crzydmps (when he had a good night sleep), Ned, Dk (though is a bit of a hater :-) ), and some others but wish there were more guys with open minds here who can think for themselves.
And its amazing how far this mentality goes which shocked the hell out of me in the Rose thread, which of course was brushed aside because its not pure knicks love.
mreinman wrote:CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:Just wondering what would ever make you think that I don't read and listen to everything I can get my hands on about the Knicks? I know there is another side and I know the math behind it. But I don't see the glass half empty approach from fans before the season even starts.CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:Well said. I get cautious optimism. But I think there is a lot to get excited about. I really like the young guys that the Knicks brought in. I think NDour, and Willy have a shot at being good rotation level pros. I also think Noah was a great addition. Rose's trainer and his teammates have been extremely positive about how he is doing. I guess I don't get pushing that all aside to rag on the team I root for.jrodmc wrote:Knixkik wrote:jrodmc wrote:This sounds amazingly alot like a lovechild rant from Hinkie/ChuckyBooBoo:This is why Knicks fans should be rooting for a slow start that turns into a midseason Melo trade and three months of losing. Somehow, this team already nailed the hardest part of tanking. Now they just need more help, and preferably help that's under the age of 30. Even if you're not sure about the superstars in this draft—Giles could be elite if healthy, Fultz looks incredible— there are potential All-Stars dotting the board that would be perfect running mates with Porzingis. So, forget the playoffs. Be smart, Knicks. Derrick Rose is ready to take 25 shots-a-game. Hornacek's defense could give up 110 points-a-night. They're warming the tanks up in Latvia. Let's make this happen.So the Knicks, not the Sixers have nailed tanking. And we need more yoots. Lot's more yoots. Because KP6 want's nothing more than to lose, lose, lose. And a lineup with Noah and Porzingis are going to give up 110 points a night. Got ya.
When is this shit ever going to end? When the Sixers franchise decides to become the new NBDL team for Golden State?
This is the part i am glad you mention that everyone who wants to tank forgets about. Surrounding a young player with veterans who know how to win and giving yourself a chance to play in meaningful games (playoffs and/or late-season games to compete for playoffs) is the most important thing for a young player who you want to give the keys to the franchise. Not tank, tank, and more tank for a chance at some decent players along the same career timeline. You can be resourceful to add supporting players, draft well in the middle of the first round, and leave no stone unturned. Plus, trying to win is a lot more fun than trying to lose, at least for true fans. Good franchises (like the Spurs) do not need to tank to find good players in the draft, in free agency, and even those undrafted or overseas.
It's a fact that no one, outside of our favorite civil court suit defendant, is picking the Knicks to be instant contenders.
It's a fact that actual NBA analysts, who may just may more know more about the NBA than Vegas mathematicians, like JVG, Greg Anthony are picking the Knicks to make the playoffs.
It's a fact than anyone with anything approaching even a miniscule level of NBA IQ realizes that the Knicks back court and bench are vastly improved, younger, and not (at least in the case of the bench) a various collection of NBDL flotsam.
It's a fact that Phil invested a large sum to sign Noah, and this would not be consistent with the Hinkie model of franchise destruction.
It's a fact that we've been listening to the greatness of the tanking model regarding Philly for years, ever since they drafted MCW and then traded him away. It's a fact you can count their wins since without a calculator.
It's my opinion that what everyone was pining for during the early off-season, vastly improving the backcourt, has occurred. And without losing any further draft picks, either.But please, keep ignoring the words No Trade Clause, and keep plying the
1) "it's best for my personal pariah who's now outlived all the hoops I wanted him to jump through, to go somewhere else for his own good. Really, I want Melo to have a chip"
2) I love KP so much it makes my gonads shrivel up and die to think he might have some level of success with my personal pariah.
3) I really only want to watch AAU basketball, because I firmly believe that, despite all the evidence to the contrary, veterans are not good for sheehit.It never gets old, and it's great to know the bastions of negativity will always be there, serving a greater purpose for those of us who just love the Knicks more than our own fuhucking stupid opinions and idiotic fanboy versions of BB IQ, having never played, coached or even been a clerk in an NBA office.
Rock on, haters!
Makes me laugh! Have these guys even read anything KP has been saying. HE'S ECSTATIC to be playing with good players!!! I mean he isn't hoping to spend the next few years struggling to get wins and praying we strike gold again in the draft. If you have no choice but to lose because your team stinks and you have no way to improve, then you are fine with looking to the draft. The Knicks weren't in that situation. They already had Melo and he wasn't going anywhere, so the best thing to do is to improve the team around KP and help him to develop even faster.Because you don't get that there can possible another side to you view as a fan. If you read most outsiders takes + vegas predictions you will see that there are many issues factored into their predictions that you seem to be pushing aside. They don't brush by things like injury risks just like insurance underwriters don't ignore these things, and just like actuaries etc ... The silly statement of "but any team can have injuries" is beyond stupid and completely missing the boat. There are many question marks here for a reason. Can they beat the odds? Of course they can ANYBODY CAN BEAT ANY ODDS.
On the flip side, JVG picked the knicks to win close to fifty games and raved about Phil Jackson (though dissed the triangle) so that is interesting, but JVG is funny like that, especially with Phil. He is always playing poker when he talks about the knicks.
I am picking them to beat the vegas predictions though I am an optimistic homer so my opinion is biased. I do think that the knicks will have many injuries as predicted though. Most of my optimism is Hornacek. I hope that he is not handcuffed. And, I think that Lee and Jennings were very solid pickups. I don't think Rose will be here more than this season and I definitely don't think the Noah (who I adore) is gonna live up to his contract. I think that Melo will be a solid this year but continue with nagging injuries that will mess with his jump shot. KP can go either way ... He can breakout or have a sophomore slump. He is certainly no where near a star yet and his physique scares the hell out of me since guys that size are at a higher risk to injury. I really hope that Hornacek builds his game in a way that will limit his risk. These 3 point shot fakes and drives are suicide plays that can really get him hurt. I want him more as a spot up deep shooter or down low (depending on matchups) but I do NOT want him driving in traffic!
The knicks need to beat the odds but lets not be surprised that there are many questions around this team and that there is significant risk. Vegas has no interest in ragging on the knicks.
Its not half empty and its not half full. Its risk factors that are there. You don't even see that you always have a bias, and that is fine just recognize it. Again, vegas does not rag on the knicks and fans who have their own minds and beliefs are not ragging. "its so un american", sound familiar?
People who like every move are obviously just koolaid drinkers who just want to drink and people who hate every move are just silly haters with grudges.
Some like some moves and dislike others. Very few of these though and getting fewer. Yellow, Bonn, GB, Guns, Knickcity, crzydmps (when he had a good night sleep), Ned, Dk (though is a bit of a hater :-) ), and some others but wish there were more guys with open minds here who can think for themselves.
And its amazing how far this mentality goes which shocked the hell out of me in the Rose thread, which of course was brushed aside because its not pure knicks love.
I know that my methods of judgement are not exactly the same as yours but that doesn't mean I or anyone else doesn't have an open mind. IN FACT it is we who are NOT just buying the vegas or pro analysts line that are displaying an open mind on what the Knicks could be this year. We're reading the stat driven predictions and we are taking into account other factors that they are not.
nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:Just wondering what would ever make you think that I don't read and listen to everything I can get my hands on about the Knicks? I know there is another side and I know the math behind it. But I don't see the glass half empty approach from fans before the season even starts.CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:Well said. I get cautious optimism. But I think there is a lot to get excited about. I really like the young guys that the Knicks brought in. I think NDour, and Willy have a shot at being good rotation level pros. I also think Noah was a great addition. Rose's trainer and his teammates have been extremely positive about how he is doing. I guess I don't get pushing that all aside to rag on the team I root for.jrodmc wrote:Knixkik wrote:jrodmc wrote:This sounds amazingly alot like a lovechild rant from Hinkie/ChuckyBooBoo:This is why Knicks fans should be rooting for a slow start that turns into a midseason Melo trade and three months of losing. Somehow, this team already nailed the hardest part of tanking. Now they just need more help, and preferably help that's under the age of 30. Even if you're not sure about the superstars in this draft—Giles could be elite if healthy, Fultz looks incredible— there are potential All-Stars dotting the board that would be perfect running mates with Porzingis. So, forget the playoffs. Be smart, Knicks. Derrick Rose is ready to take 25 shots-a-game. Hornacek's defense could give up 110 points-a-night. They're warming the tanks up in Latvia. Let's make this happen.So the Knicks, not the Sixers have nailed tanking. And we need more yoots. Lot's more yoots. Because KP6 want's nothing more than to lose, lose, lose. And a lineup with Noah and Porzingis are going to give up 110 points a night. Got ya.
When is this shit ever going to end? When the Sixers franchise decides to become the new NBDL team for Golden State?
This is the part i am glad you mention that everyone who wants to tank forgets about. Surrounding a young player with veterans who know how to win and giving yourself a chance to play in meaningful games (playoffs and/or late-season games to compete for playoffs) is the most important thing for a young player who you want to give the keys to the franchise. Not tank, tank, and more tank for a chance at some decent players along the same career timeline. You can be resourceful to add supporting players, draft well in the middle of the first round, and leave no stone unturned. Plus, trying to win is a lot more fun than trying to lose, at least for true fans. Good franchises (like the Spurs) do not need to tank to find good players in the draft, in free agency, and even those undrafted or overseas.
It's a fact that no one, outside of our favorite civil court suit defendant, is picking the Knicks to be instant contenders.
It's a fact that actual NBA analysts, who may just may more know more about the NBA than Vegas mathematicians, like JVG, Greg Anthony are picking the Knicks to make the playoffs.
It's a fact than anyone with anything approaching even a miniscule level of NBA IQ realizes that the Knicks back court and bench are vastly improved, younger, and not (at least in the case of the bench) a various collection of NBDL flotsam.
It's a fact that Phil invested a large sum to sign Noah, and this would not be consistent with the Hinkie model of franchise destruction.
It's a fact that we've been listening to the greatness of the tanking model regarding Philly for years, ever since they drafted MCW and then traded him away. It's a fact you can count their wins since without a calculator.
It's my opinion that what everyone was pining for during the early off-season, vastly improving the backcourt, has occurred. And without losing any further draft picks, either.But please, keep ignoring the words No Trade Clause, and keep plying the
1) "it's best for my personal pariah who's now outlived all the hoops I wanted him to jump through, to go somewhere else for his own good. Really, I want Melo to have a chip"
2) I love KP so much it makes my gonads shrivel up and die to think he might have some level of success with my personal pariah.
3) I really only want to watch AAU basketball, because I firmly believe that, despite all the evidence to the contrary, veterans are not good for sheehit.It never gets old, and it's great to know the bastions of negativity will always be there, serving a greater purpose for those of us who just love the Knicks more than our own fuhucking stupid opinions and idiotic fanboy versions of BB IQ, having never played, coached or even been a clerk in an NBA office.
Rock on, haters!
Makes me laugh! Have these guys even read anything KP has been saying. HE'S ECSTATIC to be playing with good players!!! I mean he isn't hoping to spend the next few years struggling to get wins and praying we strike gold again in the draft. If you have no choice but to lose because your team stinks and you have no way to improve, then you are fine with looking to the draft. The Knicks weren't in that situation. They already had Melo and he wasn't going anywhere, so the best thing to do is to improve the team around KP and help him to develop even faster.Because you don't get that there can possible another side to you view as a fan. If you read most outsiders takes + vegas predictions you will see that there are many issues factored into their predictions that you seem to be pushing aside. They don't brush by things like injury risks just like insurance underwriters don't ignore these things, and just like actuaries etc ... The silly statement of "but any team can have injuries" is beyond stupid and completely missing the boat. There are many question marks here for a reason. Can they beat the odds? Of course they can ANYBODY CAN BEAT ANY ODDS.
On the flip side, JVG picked the knicks to win close to fifty games and raved about Phil Jackson (though dissed the triangle) so that is interesting, but JVG is funny like that, especially with Phil. He is always playing poker when he talks about the knicks.
I am picking them to beat the vegas predictions though I am an optimistic homer so my opinion is biased. I do think that the knicks will have many injuries as predicted though. Most of my optimism is Hornacek. I hope that he is not handcuffed. And, I think that Lee and Jennings were very solid pickups. I don't think Rose will be here more than this season and I definitely don't think the Noah (who I adore) is gonna live up to his contract. I think that Melo will be a solid this year but continue with nagging injuries that will mess with his jump shot. KP can go either way ... He can breakout or have a sophomore slump. He is certainly no where near a star yet and his physique scares the hell out of me since guys that size are at a higher risk to injury. I really hope that Hornacek builds his game in a way that will limit his risk. These 3 point shot fakes and drives are suicide plays that can really get him hurt. I want him more as a spot up deep shooter or down low (depending on matchups) but I do NOT want him driving in traffic!
The knicks need to beat the odds but lets not be surprised that there are many questions around this team and that there is significant risk. Vegas has no interest in ragging on the knicks.
Its not half empty and its not half full. Its risk factors that are there. You don't even see that you always have a bias, and that is fine just recognize it. Again, vegas does not rag on the knicks and fans who have their own minds and beliefs are not ragging. "its so un american", sound familiar?
People who like every move are obviously just koolaid drinkers who just want to drink and people who hate every move are just silly haters with grudges.
Some like some moves and dislike others. Very few of these though and getting fewer. Yellow, Bonn, GB, Guns, Knickcity, crzydmps (when he had a good night sleep), Ned, Dk (though is a bit of a hater :-) ), and some others but wish there were more guys with open minds here who can think for themselves.
And its amazing how far this mentality goes which shocked the hell out of me in the Rose thread, which of course was brushed aside because its not pure knicks love.
I know that my methods of judgement are not exactly the same as yours but that doesn't mean I or anyone else doesn't have an open mind. IN FACT it is we who are NOT just buying the vegas or pro analysts line that are displaying an open mind on what the Knicks could be this year. We're reading the stat driven predictions and we are taking into account other factors that they are not.
again, predictions are based on the past performances. they're not going to be based upon what is unseen, unfounded, and unprovable.
you are basing your predictions on what you *hope* will happen. somehow you are driven to conflate your *hope* with the blindness of statisticians and oddsmakers.
nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:Just wondering what would ever make you think that I don't read and listen to everything I can get my hands on about the Knicks? I know there is another side and I know the math behind it. But I don't see the glass half empty approach from fans before the season even starts.CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:Well said. I get cautious optimism. But I think there is a lot to get excited about. I really like the young guys that the Knicks brought in. I think NDour, and Willy have a shot at being good rotation level pros. I also think Noah was a great addition. Rose's trainer and his teammates have been extremely positive about how he is doing. I guess I don't get pushing that all aside to rag on the team I root for.jrodmc wrote:Knixkik wrote:jrodmc wrote:This sounds amazingly alot like a lovechild rant from Hinkie/ChuckyBooBoo:This is why Knicks fans should be rooting for a slow start that turns into a midseason Melo trade and three months of losing. Somehow, this team already nailed the hardest part of tanking. Now they just need more help, and preferably help that's under the age of 30. Even if you're not sure about the superstars in this draft—Giles could be elite if healthy, Fultz looks incredible— there are potential All-Stars dotting the board that would be perfect running mates with Porzingis. So, forget the playoffs. Be smart, Knicks. Derrick Rose is ready to take 25 shots-a-game. Hornacek's defense could give up 110 points-a-night. They're warming the tanks up in Latvia. Let's make this happen.So the Knicks, not the Sixers have nailed tanking. And we need more yoots. Lot's more yoots. Because KP6 want's nothing more than to lose, lose, lose. And a lineup with Noah and Porzingis are going to give up 110 points a night. Got ya.
When is this shit ever going to end? When the Sixers franchise decides to become the new NBDL team for Golden State?
This is the part i am glad you mention that everyone who wants to tank forgets about. Surrounding a young player with veterans who know how to win and giving yourself a chance to play in meaningful games (playoffs and/or late-season games to compete for playoffs) is the most important thing for a young player who you want to give the keys to the franchise. Not tank, tank, and more tank for a chance at some decent players along the same career timeline. You can be resourceful to add supporting players, draft well in the middle of the first round, and leave no stone unturned. Plus, trying to win is a lot more fun than trying to lose, at least for true fans. Good franchises (like the Spurs) do not need to tank to find good players in the draft, in free agency, and even those undrafted or overseas.
It's a fact that no one, outside of our favorite civil court suit defendant, is picking the Knicks to be instant contenders.
It's a fact that actual NBA analysts, who may just may more know more about the NBA than Vegas mathematicians, like JVG, Greg Anthony are picking the Knicks to make the playoffs.
It's a fact than anyone with anything approaching even a miniscule level of NBA IQ realizes that the Knicks back court and bench are vastly improved, younger, and not (at least in the case of the bench) a various collection of NBDL flotsam.
It's a fact that Phil invested a large sum to sign Noah, and this would not be consistent with the Hinkie model of franchise destruction.
It's a fact that we've been listening to the greatness of the tanking model regarding Philly for years, ever since they drafted MCW and then traded him away. It's a fact you can count their wins since without a calculator.
It's my opinion that what everyone was pining for during the early off-season, vastly improving the backcourt, has occurred. And without losing any further draft picks, either.But please, keep ignoring the words No Trade Clause, and keep plying the
1) "it's best for my personal pariah who's now outlived all the hoops I wanted him to jump through, to go somewhere else for his own good. Really, I want Melo to have a chip"
2) I love KP so much it makes my gonads shrivel up and die to think he might have some level of success with my personal pariah.
3) I really only want to watch AAU basketball, because I firmly believe that, despite all the evidence to the contrary, veterans are not good for sheehit.It never gets old, and it's great to know the bastions of negativity will always be there, serving a greater purpose for those of us who just love the Knicks more than our own fuhucking stupid opinions and idiotic fanboy versions of BB IQ, having never played, coached or even been a clerk in an NBA office.
Rock on, haters!
Makes me laugh! Have these guys even read anything KP has been saying. HE'S ECSTATIC to be playing with good players!!! I mean he isn't hoping to spend the next few years struggling to get wins and praying we strike gold again in the draft. If you have no choice but to lose because your team stinks and you have no way to improve, then you are fine with looking to the draft. The Knicks weren't in that situation. They already had Melo and he wasn't going anywhere, so the best thing to do is to improve the team around KP and help him to develop even faster.Because you don't get that there can possible another side to you view as a fan. If you read most outsiders takes + vegas predictions you will see that there are many issues factored into their predictions that you seem to be pushing aside. They don't brush by things like injury risks just like insurance underwriters don't ignore these things, and just like actuaries etc ... The silly statement of "but any team can have injuries" is beyond stupid and completely missing the boat. There are many question marks here for a reason. Can they beat the odds? Of course they can ANYBODY CAN BEAT ANY ODDS.
On the flip side, JVG picked the knicks to win close to fifty games and raved about Phil Jackson (though dissed the triangle) so that is interesting, but JVG is funny like that, especially with Phil. He is always playing poker when he talks about the knicks.
I am picking them to beat the vegas predictions though I am an optimistic homer so my opinion is biased. I do think that the knicks will have many injuries as predicted though. Most of my optimism is Hornacek. I hope that he is not handcuffed. And, I think that Lee and Jennings were very solid pickups. I don't think Rose will be here more than this season and I definitely don't think the Noah (who I adore) is gonna live up to his contract. I think that Melo will be a solid this year but continue with nagging injuries that will mess with his jump shot. KP can go either way ... He can breakout or have a sophomore slump. He is certainly no where near a star yet and his physique scares the hell out of me since guys that size are at a higher risk to injury. I really hope that Hornacek builds his game in a way that will limit his risk. These 3 point shot fakes and drives are suicide plays that can really get him hurt. I want him more as a spot up deep shooter or down low (depending on matchups) but I do NOT want him driving in traffic!
The knicks need to beat the odds but lets not be surprised that there are many questions around this team and that there is significant risk. Vegas has no interest in ragging on the knicks.
Its not half empty and its not half full. Its risk factors that are there. You don't even see that you always have a bias, and that is fine just recognize it. Again, vegas does not rag on the knicks and fans who have their own minds and beliefs are not ragging. "its so un american", sound familiar?
People who like every move are obviously just koolaid drinkers who just want to drink and people who hate every move are just silly haters with grudges.
Some like some moves and dislike others. Very few of these though and getting fewer. Yellow, Bonn, GB, Guns, Knickcity, crzydmps (when he had a good night sleep), Ned, Dk (though is a bit of a hater :-) ), and some others but wish there were more guys with open minds here who can think for themselves.
And its amazing how far this mentality goes which shocked the hell out of me in the Rose thread, which of course was brushed aside because its not pure knicks love.
I know that my methods of judgement are not exactly the same as yours but that doesn't mean I or anyone else doesn't have an open mind. IN FACT it is we who are NOT just buying the vegas or pro analysts line that are displaying an open mind on what the Knicks could be this year. We're reading the stat driven predictions and we are taking into account other factors that they are not.
this is pretty funny :-)
vegas does not have a bias and you do (to the umpth degree), funny comparison. To make an unbiased prediction one needs to be critical of everything in an unbiased way.
dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:Just wondering what would ever make you think that I don't read and listen to everything I can get my hands on about the Knicks? I know there is another side and I know the math behind it. But I don't see the glass half empty approach from fans before the season even starts.CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:Well said. I get cautious optimism. But I think there is a lot to get excited about. I really like the young guys that the Knicks brought in. I think NDour, and Willy have a shot at being good rotation level pros. I also think Noah was a great addition. Rose's trainer and his teammates have been extremely positive about how he is doing. I guess I don't get pushing that all aside to rag on the team I root for.jrodmc wrote:Knixkik wrote:jrodmc wrote:This sounds amazingly alot like a lovechild rant from Hinkie/ChuckyBooBoo:This is why Knicks fans should be rooting for a slow start that turns into a midseason Melo trade and three months of losing. Somehow, this team already nailed the hardest part of tanking. Now they just need more help, and preferably help that's under the age of 30. Even if you're not sure about the superstars in this draft—Giles could be elite if healthy, Fultz looks incredible— there are potential All-Stars dotting the board that would be perfect running mates with Porzingis. So, forget the playoffs. Be smart, Knicks. Derrick Rose is ready to take 25 shots-a-game. Hornacek's defense could give up 110 points-a-night. They're warming the tanks up in Latvia. Let's make this happen.So the Knicks, not the Sixers have nailed tanking. And we need more yoots. Lot's more yoots. Because KP6 want's nothing more than to lose, lose, lose. And a lineup with Noah and Porzingis are going to give up 110 points a night. Got ya.
When is this shit ever going to end? When the Sixers franchise decides to become the new NBDL team for Golden State?
This is the part i am glad you mention that everyone who wants to tank forgets about. Surrounding a young player with veterans who know how to win and giving yourself a chance to play in meaningful games (playoffs and/or late-season games to compete for playoffs) is the most important thing for a young player who you want to give the keys to the franchise. Not tank, tank, and more tank for a chance at some decent players along the same career timeline. You can be resourceful to add supporting players, draft well in the middle of the first round, and leave no stone unturned. Plus, trying to win is a lot more fun than trying to lose, at least for true fans. Good franchises (like the Spurs) do not need to tank to find good players in the draft, in free agency, and even those undrafted or overseas.
It's a fact that no one, outside of our favorite civil court suit defendant, is picking the Knicks to be instant contenders.
It's a fact that actual NBA analysts, who may just may more know more about the NBA than Vegas mathematicians, like JVG, Greg Anthony are picking the Knicks to make the playoffs.
It's a fact than anyone with anything approaching even a miniscule level of NBA IQ realizes that the Knicks back court and bench are vastly improved, younger, and not (at least in the case of the bench) a various collection of NBDL flotsam.
It's a fact that Phil invested a large sum to sign Noah, and this would not be consistent with the Hinkie model of franchise destruction.
It's a fact that we've been listening to the greatness of the tanking model regarding Philly for years, ever since they drafted MCW and then traded him away. It's a fact you can count their wins since without a calculator.
It's my opinion that what everyone was pining for during the early off-season, vastly improving the backcourt, has occurred. And without losing any further draft picks, either.But please, keep ignoring the words No Trade Clause, and keep plying the
1) "it's best for my personal pariah who's now outlived all the hoops I wanted him to jump through, to go somewhere else for his own good. Really, I want Melo to have a chip"
2) I love KP so much it makes my gonads shrivel up and die to think he might have some level of success with my personal pariah.
3) I really only want to watch AAU basketball, because I firmly believe that, despite all the evidence to the contrary, veterans are not good for sheehit.It never gets old, and it's great to know the bastions of negativity will always be there, serving a greater purpose for those of us who just love the Knicks more than our own fuhucking stupid opinions and idiotic fanboy versions of BB IQ, having never played, coached or even been a clerk in an NBA office.
Rock on, haters!
Makes me laugh! Have these guys even read anything KP has been saying. HE'S ECSTATIC to be playing with good players!!! I mean he isn't hoping to spend the next few years struggling to get wins and praying we strike gold again in the draft. If you have no choice but to lose because your team stinks and you have no way to improve, then you are fine with looking to the draft. The Knicks weren't in that situation. They already had Melo and he wasn't going anywhere, so the best thing to do is to improve the team around KP and help him to develop even faster.Because you don't get that there can possible another side to you view as a fan. If you read most outsiders takes + vegas predictions you will see that there are many issues factored into their predictions that you seem to be pushing aside. They don't brush by things like injury risks just like insurance underwriters don't ignore these things, and just like actuaries etc ... The silly statement of "but any team can have injuries" is beyond stupid and completely missing the boat. There are many question marks here for a reason. Can they beat the odds? Of course they can ANYBODY CAN BEAT ANY ODDS.
On the flip side, JVG picked the knicks to win close to fifty games and raved about Phil Jackson (though dissed the triangle) so that is interesting, but JVG is funny like that, especially with Phil. He is always playing poker when he talks about the knicks.
I am picking them to beat the vegas predictions though I am an optimistic homer so my opinion is biased. I do think that the knicks will have many injuries as predicted though. Most of my optimism is Hornacek. I hope that he is not handcuffed. And, I think that Lee and Jennings were very solid pickups. I don't think Rose will be here more than this season and I definitely don't think the Noah (who I adore) is gonna live up to his contract. I think that Melo will be a solid this year but continue with nagging injuries that will mess with his jump shot. KP can go either way ... He can breakout or have a sophomore slump. He is certainly no where near a star yet and his physique scares the hell out of me since guys that size are at a higher risk to injury. I really hope that Hornacek builds his game in a way that will limit his risk. These 3 point shot fakes and drives are suicide plays that can really get him hurt. I want him more as a spot up deep shooter or down low (depending on matchups) but I do NOT want him driving in traffic!
The knicks need to beat the odds but lets not be surprised that there are many questions around this team and that there is significant risk. Vegas has no interest in ragging on the knicks.
Its not half empty and its not half full. Its risk factors that are there. You don't even see that you always have a bias, and that is fine just recognize it. Again, vegas does not rag on the knicks and fans who have their own minds and beliefs are not ragging. "its so un american", sound familiar?
People who like every move are obviously just koolaid drinkers who just want to drink and people who hate every move are just silly haters with grudges.
Some like some moves and dislike others. Very few of these though and getting fewer. Yellow, Bonn, GB, Guns, Knickcity, crzydmps (when he had a good night sleep), Ned, Dk (though is a bit of a hater :-) ), and some others but wish there were more guys with open minds here who can think for themselves.
And its amazing how far this mentality goes which shocked the hell out of me in the Rose thread, which of course was brushed aside because its not pure knicks love.
I know that my methods of judgement are not exactly the same as yours but that doesn't mean I or anyone else doesn't have an open mind. IN FACT it is we who are NOT just buying the vegas or pro analysts line that are displaying an open mind on what the Knicks could be this year. We're reading the stat driven predictions and we are taking into account other factors that they are not.
again, predictions are based on the past performances. they're not going to be based upon what is unseen, unfounded, and unprovable.
you are basing your predictions on what you *hope* will happen. somehow you are driven to conflate your *hope* with the blindness of statisticians and oddsmakers.
I understand how the predictions are being made. I'm not sure that you understand that it's not just HOPE that forms the basis of my views. I'm adding other factors that aren't using RPM or WS/48 alone.
These predictions from the Pros aren't infallible and they can't account for everything, although they seek to achieve that goal one day. They are not there yet!!! They DON'T have a stat for how Hornacek will impact the roster or how this particular group will respond and function together as a unit. They don't have a stat that can tell you how Noah will respond to playing in NY or how Rose and Jennings will respond with everything on the line for a new contract.
nixluva wrote:dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:Just wondering what would ever make you think that I don't read and listen to everything I can get my hands on about the Knicks? I know there is another side and I know the math behind it. But I don't see the glass half empty approach from fans before the season even starts.CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:Well said. I get cautious optimism. But I think there is a lot to get excited about. I really like the young guys that the Knicks brought in. I think NDour, and Willy have a shot at being good rotation level pros. I also think Noah was a great addition. Rose's trainer and his teammates have been extremely positive about how he is doing. I guess I don't get pushing that all aside to rag on the team I root for.jrodmc wrote:Knixkik wrote:jrodmc wrote:This sounds amazingly alot like a lovechild rant from Hinkie/ChuckyBooBoo:This is why Knicks fans should be rooting for a slow start that turns into a midseason Melo trade and three months of losing. Somehow, this team already nailed the hardest part of tanking. Now they just need more help, and preferably help that's under the age of 30. Even if you're not sure about the superstars in this draft—Giles could be elite if healthy, Fultz looks incredible— there are potential All-Stars dotting the board that would be perfect running mates with Porzingis. So, forget the playoffs. Be smart, Knicks. Derrick Rose is ready to take 25 shots-a-game. Hornacek's defense could give up 110 points-a-night. They're warming the tanks up in Latvia. Let's make this happen.So the Knicks, not the Sixers have nailed tanking. And we need more yoots. Lot's more yoots. Because KP6 want's nothing more than to lose, lose, lose. And a lineup with Noah and Porzingis are going to give up 110 points a night. Got ya.
When is this shit ever going to end? When the Sixers franchise decides to become the new NBDL team for Golden State?
This is the part i am glad you mention that everyone who wants to tank forgets about. Surrounding a young player with veterans who know how to win and giving yourself a chance to play in meaningful games (playoffs and/or late-season games to compete for playoffs) is the most important thing for a young player who you want to give the keys to the franchise. Not tank, tank, and more tank for a chance at some decent players along the same career timeline. You can be resourceful to add supporting players, draft well in the middle of the first round, and leave no stone unturned. Plus, trying to win is a lot more fun than trying to lose, at least for true fans. Good franchises (like the Spurs) do not need to tank to find good players in the draft, in free agency, and even those undrafted or overseas.
It's a fact that no one, outside of our favorite civil court suit defendant, is picking the Knicks to be instant contenders.
It's a fact that actual NBA analysts, who may just may more know more about the NBA than Vegas mathematicians, like JVG, Greg Anthony are picking the Knicks to make the playoffs.
It's a fact than anyone with anything approaching even a miniscule level of NBA IQ realizes that the Knicks back court and bench are vastly improved, younger, and not (at least in the case of the bench) a various collection of NBDL flotsam.
It's a fact that Phil invested a large sum to sign Noah, and this would not be consistent with the Hinkie model of franchise destruction.
It's a fact that we've been listening to the greatness of the tanking model regarding Philly for years, ever since they drafted MCW and then traded him away. It's a fact you can count their wins since without a calculator.
It's my opinion that what everyone was pining for during the early off-season, vastly improving the backcourt, has occurred. And without losing any further draft picks, either.But please, keep ignoring the words No Trade Clause, and keep plying the
1) "it's best for my personal pariah who's now outlived all the hoops I wanted him to jump through, to go somewhere else for his own good. Really, I want Melo to have a chip"
2) I love KP so much it makes my gonads shrivel up and die to think he might have some level of success with my personal pariah.
3) I really only want to watch AAU basketball, because I firmly believe that, despite all the evidence to the contrary, veterans are not good for sheehit.It never gets old, and it's great to know the bastions of negativity will always be there, serving a greater purpose for those of us who just love the Knicks more than our own fuhucking stupid opinions and idiotic fanboy versions of BB IQ, having never played, coached or even been a clerk in an NBA office.
Rock on, haters!
Makes me laugh! Have these guys even read anything KP has been saying. HE'S ECSTATIC to be playing with good players!!! I mean he isn't hoping to spend the next few years struggling to get wins and praying we strike gold again in the draft. If you have no choice but to lose because your team stinks and you have no way to improve, then you are fine with looking to the draft. The Knicks weren't in that situation. They already had Melo and he wasn't going anywhere, so the best thing to do is to improve the team around KP and help him to develop even faster.Because you don't get that there can possible another side to you view as a fan. If you read most outsiders takes + vegas predictions you will see that there are many issues factored into their predictions that you seem to be pushing aside. They don't brush by things like injury risks just like insurance underwriters don't ignore these things, and just like actuaries etc ... The silly statement of "but any team can have injuries" is beyond stupid and completely missing the boat. There are many question marks here for a reason. Can they beat the odds? Of course they can ANYBODY CAN BEAT ANY ODDS.
On the flip side, JVG picked the knicks to win close to fifty games and raved about Phil Jackson (though dissed the triangle) so that is interesting, but JVG is funny like that, especially with Phil. He is always playing poker when he talks about the knicks.
I am picking them to beat the vegas predictions though I am an optimistic homer so my opinion is biased. I do think that the knicks will have many injuries as predicted though. Most of my optimism is Hornacek. I hope that he is not handcuffed. And, I think that Lee and Jennings were very solid pickups. I don't think Rose will be here more than this season and I definitely don't think the Noah (who I adore) is gonna live up to his contract. I think that Melo will be a solid this year but continue with nagging injuries that will mess with his jump shot. KP can go either way ... He can breakout or have a sophomore slump. He is certainly no where near a star yet and his physique scares the hell out of me since guys that size are at a higher risk to injury. I really hope that Hornacek builds his game in a way that will limit his risk. These 3 point shot fakes and drives are suicide plays that can really get him hurt. I want him more as a spot up deep shooter or down low (depending on matchups) but I do NOT want him driving in traffic!
The knicks need to beat the odds but lets not be surprised that there are many questions around this team and that there is significant risk. Vegas has no interest in ragging on the knicks.
Its not half empty and its not half full. Its risk factors that are there. You don't even see that you always have a bias, and that is fine just recognize it. Again, vegas does not rag on the knicks and fans who have their own minds and beliefs are not ragging. "its so un american", sound familiar?
People who like every move are obviously just koolaid drinkers who just want to drink and people who hate every move are just silly haters with grudges.
Some like some moves and dislike others. Very few of these though and getting fewer. Yellow, Bonn, GB, Guns, Knickcity, crzydmps (when he had a good night sleep), Ned, Dk (though is a bit of a hater :-) ), and some others but wish there were more guys with open minds here who can think for themselves.
And its amazing how far this mentality goes which shocked the hell out of me in the Rose thread, which of course was brushed aside because its not pure knicks love.
I know that my methods of judgement are not exactly the same as yours but that doesn't mean I or anyone else doesn't have an open mind. IN FACT it is we who are NOT just buying the vegas or pro analysts line that are displaying an open mind on what the Knicks could be this year. We're reading the stat driven predictions and we are taking into account other factors that they are not.
again, predictions are based on the past performances. they're not going to be based upon what is unseen, unfounded, and unprovable.
you are basing your predictions on what you *hope* will happen. somehow you are driven to conflate your *hope* with the blindness of statisticians and oddsmakers.
I understand how the predictions are being made. I'm not sure that you understand that it's not just HOPE that forms the basis of my views. I'm adding other factors that aren't using RPM or WS/48 alone.
These predictions from the Pros aren't infallible and they can't account for everything, although they seek to achieve that goal one day. They are not there yet!!! They DON'T have a stat for how Hornacek will impact the roster or how this particular group will respond and function together as a unit. They don't have a stat that can tell you how Noah will respond to playing in NY or how Rose and Jennings will respond with everything on the line for a new contract.
You don't have those stats either so all things being equal, they have much more than you have and they are not biased.
nixluva wrote:dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:Just wondering what would ever make you think that I don't read and listen to everything I can get my hands on about the Knicks? I know there is another side and I know the math behind it. But I don't see the glass half empty approach from fans before the season even starts.CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:Well said. I get cautious optimism. But I think there is a lot to get excited about. I really like the young guys that the Knicks brought in. I think NDour, and Willy have a shot at being good rotation level pros. I also think Noah was a great addition. Rose's trainer and his teammates have been extremely positive about how he is doing. I guess I don't get pushing that all aside to rag on the team I root for.jrodmc wrote:Knixkik wrote:jrodmc wrote:This sounds amazingly alot like a lovechild rant from Hinkie/ChuckyBooBoo:This is why Knicks fans should be rooting for a slow start that turns into a midseason Melo trade and three months of losing. Somehow, this team already nailed the hardest part of tanking. Now they just need more help, and preferably help that's under the age of 30. Even if you're not sure about the superstars in this draft—Giles could be elite if healthy, Fultz looks incredible— there are potential All-Stars dotting the board that would be perfect running mates with Porzingis. So, forget the playoffs. Be smart, Knicks. Derrick Rose is ready to take 25 shots-a-game. Hornacek's defense could give up 110 points-a-night. They're warming the tanks up in Latvia. Let's make this happen.So the Knicks, not the Sixers have nailed tanking. And we need more yoots. Lot's more yoots. Because KP6 want's nothing more than to lose, lose, lose. And a lineup with Noah and Porzingis are going to give up 110 points a night. Got ya.
When is this shit ever going to end? When the Sixers franchise decides to become the new NBDL team for Golden State?
This is the part i am glad you mention that everyone who wants to tank forgets about. Surrounding a young player with veterans who know how to win and giving yourself a chance to play in meaningful games (playoffs and/or late-season games to compete for playoffs) is the most important thing for a young player who you want to give the keys to the franchise. Not tank, tank, and more tank for a chance at some decent players along the same career timeline. You can be resourceful to add supporting players, draft well in the middle of the first round, and leave no stone unturned. Plus, trying to win is a lot more fun than trying to lose, at least for true fans. Good franchises (like the Spurs) do not need to tank to find good players in the draft, in free agency, and even those undrafted or overseas.
It's a fact that no one, outside of our favorite civil court suit defendant, is picking the Knicks to be instant contenders.
It's a fact that actual NBA analysts, who may just may more know more about the NBA than Vegas mathematicians, like JVG, Greg Anthony are picking the Knicks to make the playoffs.
It's a fact than anyone with anything approaching even a miniscule level of NBA IQ realizes that the Knicks back court and bench are vastly improved, younger, and not (at least in the case of the bench) a various collection of NBDL flotsam.
It's a fact that Phil invested a large sum to sign Noah, and this would not be consistent with the Hinkie model of franchise destruction.
It's a fact that we've been listening to the greatness of the tanking model regarding Philly for years, ever since they drafted MCW and then traded him away. It's a fact you can count their wins since without a calculator.
It's my opinion that what everyone was pining for during the early off-season, vastly improving the backcourt, has occurred. And without losing any further draft picks, either.But please, keep ignoring the words No Trade Clause, and keep plying the
1) "it's best for my personal pariah who's now outlived all the hoops I wanted him to jump through, to go somewhere else for his own good. Really, I want Melo to have a chip"
2) I love KP so much it makes my gonads shrivel up and die to think he might have some level of success with my personal pariah.
3) I really only want to watch AAU basketball, because I firmly believe that, despite all the evidence to the contrary, veterans are not good for sheehit.It never gets old, and it's great to know the bastions of negativity will always be there, serving a greater purpose for those of us who just love the Knicks more than our own fuhucking stupid opinions and idiotic fanboy versions of BB IQ, having never played, coached or even been a clerk in an NBA office.
Rock on, haters!
Makes me laugh! Have these guys even read anything KP has been saying. HE'S ECSTATIC to be playing with good players!!! I mean he isn't hoping to spend the next few years struggling to get wins and praying we strike gold again in the draft. If you have no choice but to lose because your team stinks and you have no way to improve, then you are fine with looking to the draft. The Knicks weren't in that situation. They already had Melo and he wasn't going anywhere, so the best thing to do is to improve the team around KP and help him to develop even faster.Because you don't get that there can possible another side to you view as a fan. If you read most outsiders takes + vegas predictions you will see that there are many issues factored into their predictions that you seem to be pushing aside. They don't brush by things like injury risks just like insurance underwriters don't ignore these things, and just like actuaries etc ... The silly statement of "but any team can have injuries" is beyond stupid and completely missing the boat. There are many question marks here for a reason. Can they beat the odds? Of course they can ANYBODY CAN BEAT ANY ODDS.
On the flip side, JVG picked the knicks to win close to fifty games and raved about Phil Jackson (though dissed the triangle) so that is interesting, but JVG is funny like that, especially with Phil. He is always playing poker when he talks about the knicks.
I am picking them to beat the vegas predictions though I am an optimistic homer so my opinion is biased. I do think that the knicks will have many injuries as predicted though. Most of my optimism is Hornacek. I hope that he is not handcuffed. And, I think that Lee and Jennings were very solid pickups. I don't think Rose will be here more than this season and I definitely don't think the Noah (who I adore) is gonna live up to his contract. I think that Melo will be a solid this year but continue with nagging injuries that will mess with his jump shot. KP can go either way ... He can breakout or have a sophomore slump. He is certainly no where near a star yet and his physique scares the hell out of me since guys that size are at a higher risk to injury. I really hope that Hornacek builds his game in a way that will limit his risk. These 3 point shot fakes and drives are suicide plays that can really get him hurt. I want him more as a spot up deep shooter or down low (depending on matchups) but I do NOT want him driving in traffic!
The knicks need to beat the odds but lets not be surprised that there are many questions around this team and that there is significant risk. Vegas has no interest in ragging on the knicks.
Its not half empty and its not half full. Its risk factors that are there. You don't even see that you always have a bias, and that is fine just recognize it. Again, vegas does not rag on the knicks and fans who have their own minds and beliefs are not ragging. "its so un american", sound familiar?
People who like every move are obviously just koolaid drinkers who just want to drink and people who hate every move are just silly haters with grudges.
Some like some moves and dislike others. Very few of these though and getting fewer. Yellow, Bonn, GB, Guns, Knickcity, crzydmps (when he had a good night sleep), Ned, Dk (though is a bit of a hater :-) ), and some others but wish there were more guys with open minds here who can think for themselves.
And its amazing how far this mentality goes which shocked the hell out of me in the Rose thread, which of course was brushed aside because its not pure knicks love.
I know that my methods of judgement are not exactly the same as yours but that doesn't mean I or anyone else doesn't have an open mind. IN FACT it is we who are NOT just buying the vegas or pro analysts line that are displaying an open mind on what the Knicks could be this year. We're reading the stat driven predictions and we are taking into account other factors that they are not.
again, predictions are based on the past performances. they're not going to be based upon what is unseen, unfounded, and unprovable.
you are basing your predictions on what you *hope* will happen. somehow you are driven to conflate your *hope* with the blindness of statisticians and oddsmakers.
I understand how the predictions are being made. I'm not sure that you understand that it's not just HOPE that forms the basis of my views. I'm adding other factors that aren't using RPM or WS/48 alone.
These predictions from the Pros aren't infallible and they can't account for everything, although they seek to achieve that goal one day. They are not there yet!!! They DON'T have a stat for how Hornacek will impact the roster or how this particular group will respond and function together as a unit. They don't have a stat that can tell you how Noah will respond to playing in NY or how Rose and Jennings will respond with everything on the line for a new contract.
Pelton said that coaching changes generally cause win projections to go down.
mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:Just wondering what would ever make you think that I don't read and listen to everything I can get my hands on about the Knicks? I know there is another side and I know the math behind it. But I don't see the glass half empty approach from fans before the season even starts.CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:Well said. I get cautious optimism. But I think there is a lot to get excited about. I really like the young guys that the Knicks brought in. I think NDour, and Willy have a shot at being good rotation level pros. I also think Noah was a great addition. Rose's trainer and his teammates have been extremely positive about how he is doing. I guess I don't get pushing that all aside to rag on the team I root for.jrodmc wrote:Knixkik wrote:jrodmc wrote:This sounds amazingly alot like a lovechild rant from Hinkie/ChuckyBooBoo:This is why Knicks fans should be rooting for a slow start that turns into a midseason Melo trade and three months of losing. Somehow, this team already nailed the hardest part of tanking. Now they just need more help, and preferably help that's under the age of 30. Even if you're not sure about the superstars in this draft—Giles could be elite if healthy, Fultz looks incredible— there are potential All-Stars dotting the board that would be perfect running mates with Porzingis. So, forget the playoffs. Be smart, Knicks. Derrick Rose is ready to take 25 shots-a-game. Hornacek's defense could give up 110 points-a-night. They're warming the tanks up in Latvia. Let's make this happen.So the Knicks, not the Sixers have nailed tanking. And we need more yoots. Lot's more yoots. Because KP6 want's nothing more than to lose, lose, lose. And a lineup with Noah and Porzingis are going to give up 110 points a night. Got ya.
When is this shit ever going to end? When the Sixers franchise decides to become the new NBDL team for Golden State?
This is the part i am glad you mention that everyone who wants to tank forgets about. Surrounding a young player with veterans who know how to win and giving yourself a chance to play in meaningful games (playoffs and/or late-season games to compete for playoffs) is the most important thing for a young player who you want to give the keys to the franchise. Not tank, tank, and more tank for a chance at some decent players along the same career timeline. You can be resourceful to add supporting players, draft well in the middle of the first round, and leave no stone unturned. Plus, trying to win is a lot more fun than trying to lose, at least for true fans. Good franchises (like the Spurs) do not need to tank to find good players in the draft, in free agency, and even those undrafted or overseas.
It's a fact that no one, outside of our favorite civil court suit defendant, is picking the Knicks to be instant contenders.
It's a fact that actual NBA analysts, who may just may more know more about the NBA than Vegas mathematicians, like JVG, Greg Anthony are picking the Knicks to make the playoffs.
It's a fact than anyone with anything approaching even a miniscule level of NBA IQ realizes that the Knicks back court and bench are vastly improved, younger, and not (at least in the case of the bench) a various collection of NBDL flotsam.
It's a fact that Phil invested a large sum to sign Noah, and this would not be consistent with the Hinkie model of franchise destruction.
It's a fact that we've been listening to the greatness of the tanking model regarding Philly for years, ever since they drafted MCW and then traded him away. It's a fact you can count their wins since without a calculator.
It's my opinion that what everyone was pining for during the early off-season, vastly improving the backcourt, has occurred. And without losing any further draft picks, either.But please, keep ignoring the words No Trade Clause, and keep plying the
1) "it's best for my personal pariah who's now outlived all the hoops I wanted him to jump through, to go somewhere else for his own good. Really, I want Melo to have a chip"
2) I love KP so much it makes my gonads shrivel up and die to think he might have some level of success with my personal pariah.
3) I really only want to watch AAU basketball, because I firmly believe that, despite all the evidence to the contrary, veterans are not good for sheehit.It never gets old, and it's great to know the bastions of negativity will always be there, serving a greater purpose for those of us who just love the Knicks more than our own fuhucking stupid opinions and idiotic fanboy versions of BB IQ, having never played, coached or even been a clerk in an NBA office.
Rock on, haters!
Makes me laugh! Have these guys even read anything KP has been saying. HE'S ECSTATIC to be playing with good players!!! I mean he isn't hoping to spend the next few years struggling to get wins and praying we strike gold again in the draft. If you have no choice but to lose because your team stinks and you have no way to improve, then you are fine with looking to the draft. The Knicks weren't in that situation. They already had Melo and he wasn't going anywhere, so the best thing to do is to improve the team around KP and help him to develop even faster.Because you don't get that there can possible another side to you view as a fan. If you read most outsiders takes + vegas predictions you will see that there are many issues factored into their predictions that you seem to be pushing aside. They don't brush by things like injury risks just like insurance underwriters don't ignore these things, and just like actuaries etc ... The silly statement of "but any team can have injuries" is beyond stupid and completely missing the boat. There are many question marks here for a reason. Can they beat the odds? Of course they can ANYBODY CAN BEAT ANY ODDS.
On the flip side, JVG picked the knicks to win close to fifty games and raved about Phil Jackson (though dissed the triangle) so that is interesting, but JVG is funny like that, especially with Phil. He is always playing poker when he talks about the knicks.
I am picking them to beat the vegas predictions though I am an optimistic homer so my opinion is biased. I do think that the knicks will have many injuries as predicted though. Most of my optimism is Hornacek. I hope that he is not handcuffed. And, I think that Lee and Jennings were very solid pickups. I don't think Rose will be here more than this season and I definitely don't think the Noah (who I adore) is gonna live up to his contract. I think that Melo will be a solid this year but continue with nagging injuries that will mess with his jump shot. KP can go either way ... He can breakout or have a sophomore slump. He is certainly no where near a star yet and his physique scares the hell out of me since guys that size are at a higher risk to injury. I really hope that Hornacek builds his game in a way that will limit his risk. These 3 point shot fakes and drives are suicide plays that can really get him hurt. I want him more as a spot up deep shooter or down low (depending on matchups) but I do NOT want him driving in traffic!
The knicks need to beat the odds but lets not be surprised that there are many questions around this team and that there is significant risk. Vegas has no interest in ragging on the knicks.
Its not half empty and its not half full. Its risk factors that are there. You don't even see that you always have a bias, and that is fine just recognize it. Again, vegas does not rag on the knicks and fans who have their own minds and beliefs are not ragging. "its so un american", sound familiar?
People who like every move are obviously just koolaid drinkers who just want to drink and people who hate every move are just silly haters with grudges.
Some like some moves and dislike others. Very few of these though and getting fewer. Yellow, Bonn, GB, Guns, Knickcity, crzydmps (when he had a good night sleep), Ned, Dk (though is a bit of a hater :-) ), and some others but wish there were more guys with open minds here who can think for themselves.
And its amazing how far this mentality goes which shocked the hell out of me in the Rose thread, which of course was brushed aside because its not pure knicks love.
I know that my methods of judgement are not exactly the same as yours but that doesn't mean I or anyone else doesn't have an open mind. IN FACT it is we who are NOT just buying the vegas or pro analysts line that are displaying an open mind on what the Knicks could be this year. We're reading the stat driven predictions and we are taking into account other factors that they are not.
this is pretty funny :-)
vegas does not have a bias and you do (to the umpth degree), funny comparison. To make an unbiased prediction one needs to be critical of everything in an unbiased way.
Basketball is played by HUMANS and not robots. Using numbers is cold and unemotional but not infallible because... humans! There's more to it than just numbers! Numbers suggest that it was highly unlikely that the Cavs should've come back and beat the Warriors! The unmeasurable factor kicked in.
CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:Just wondering what would ever make you think that I don't read and listen to everything I can get my hands on about the Knicks? I know there is another side and I know the math behind it. But I don't see the glass half empty approach from fans before the season even starts.CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:Well said. I get cautious optimism. But I think there is a lot to get excited about. I really like the young guys that the Knicks brought in. I think NDour, and Willy have a shot at being good rotation level pros. I also think Noah was a great addition. Rose's trainer and his teammates have been extremely positive about how he is doing. I guess I don't get pushing that all aside to rag on the team I root for.jrodmc wrote:Knixkik wrote:jrodmc wrote:This sounds amazingly alot like a lovechild rant from Hinkie/ChuckyBooBoo:This is why Knicks fans should be rooting for a slow start that turns into a midseason Melo trade and three months of losing. Somehow, this team already nailed the hardest part of tanking. Now they just need more help, and preferably help that's under the age of 30. Even if you're not sure about the superstars in this draft—Giles could be elite if healthy, Fultz looks incredible— there are potential All-Stars dotting the board that would be perfect running mates with Porzingis. So, forget the playoffs. Be smart, Knicks. Derrick Rose is ready to take 25 shots-a-game. Hornacek's defense could give up 110 points-a-night. They're warming the tanks up in Latvia. Let's make this happen.So the Knicks, not the Sixers have nailed tanking. And we need more yoots. Lot's more yoots. Because KP6 want's nothing more than to lose, lose, lose. And a lineup with Noah and Porzingis are going to give up 110 points a night. Got ya.
When is this shit ever going to end? When the Sixers franchise decides to become the new NBDL team for Golden State?
This is the part i am glad you mention that everyone who wants to tank forgets about. Surrounding a young player with veterans who know how to win and giving yourself a chance to play in meaningful games (playoffs and/or late-season games to compete for playoffs) is the most important thing for a young player who you want to give the keys to the franchise. Not tank, tank, and more tank for a chance at some decent players along the same career timeline. You can be resourceful to add supporting players, draft well in the middle of the first round, and leave no stone unturned. Plus, trying to win is a lot more fun than trying to lose, at least for true fans. Good franchises (like the Spurs) do not need to tank to find good players in the draft, in free agency, and even those undrafted or overseas.
It's a fact that no one, outside of our favorite civil court suit defendant, is picking the Knicks to be instant contenders.
It's a fact that actual NBA analysts, who may just may more know more about the NBA than Vegas mathematicians, like JVG, Greg Anthony are picking the Knicks to make the playoffs.
It's a fact than anyone with anything approaching even a miniscule level of NBA IQ realizes that the Knicks back court and bench are vastly improved, younger, and not (at least in the case of the bench) a various collection of NBDL flotsam.
It's a fact that Phil invested a large sum to sign Noah, and this would not be consistent with the Hinkie model of franchise destruction.
It's a fact that we've been listening to the greatness of the tanking model regarding Philly for years, ever since they drafted MCW and then traded him away. It's a fact you can count their wins since without a calculator.
It's my opinion that what everyone was pining for during the early off-season, vastly improving the backcourt, has occurred. And without losing any further draft picks, either.But please, keep ignoring the words No Trade Clause, and keep plying the
1) "it's best for my personal pariah who's now outlived all the hoops I wanted him to jump through, to go somewhere else for his own good. Really, I want Melo to have a chip"
2) I love KP so much it makes my gonads shrivel up and die to think he might have some level of success with my personal pariah.
3) I really only want to watch AAU basketball, because I firmly believe that, despite all the evidence to the contrary, veterans are not good for sheehit.It never gets old, and it's great to know the bastions of negativity will always be there, serving a greater purpose for those of us who just love the Knicks more than our own fuhucking stupid opinions and idiotic fanboy versions of BB IQ, having never played, coached or even been a clerk in an NBA office.
Rock on, haters!
Makes me laugh! Have these guys even read anything KP has been saying. HE'S ECSTATIC to be playing with good players!!! I mean he isn't hoping to spend the next few years struggling to get wins and praying we strike gold again in the draft. If you have no choice but to lose because your team stinks and you have no way to improve, then you are fine with looking to the draft. The Knicks weren't in that situation. They already had Melo and he wasn't going anywhere, so the best thing to do is to improve the team around KP and help him to develop even faster.Because you don't get that there can possible another side to you view as a fan. If you read most outsiders takes + vegas predictions you will see that there are many issues factored into their predictions that you seem to be pushing aside. They don't brush by things like injury risks just like insurance underwriters don't ignore these things, and just like actuaries etc ... The silly statement of "but any team can have injuries" is beyond stupid and completely missing the boat. There are many question marks here for a reason. Can they beat the odds? Of course they can ANYBODY CAN BEAT ANY ODDS.
On the flip side, JVG picked the knicks to win close to fifty games and raved about Phil Jackson (though dissed the triangle) so that is interesting, but JVG is funny like that, especially with Phil. He is always playing poker when he talks about the knicks.
I am picking them to beat the vegas predictions though I am an optimistic homer so my opinion is biased. I do think that the knicks will have many injuries as predicted though. Most of my optimism is Hornacek. I hope that he is not handcuffed. And, I think that Lee and Jennings were very solid pickups. I don't think Rose will be here more than this season and I definitely don't think the Noah (who I adore) is gonna live up to his contract. I think that Melo will be a solid this year but continue with nagging injuries that will mess with his jump shot. KP can go either way ... He can breakout or have a sophomore slump. He is certainly no where near a star yet and his physique scares the hell out of me since guys that size are at a higher risk to injury. I really hope that Hornacek builds his game in a way that will limit his risk. These 3 point shot fakes and drives are suicide plays that can really get him hurt. I want him more as a spot up deep shooter or down low (depending on matchups) but I do NOT want him driving in traffic!
The knicks need to beat the odds but lets not be surprised that there are many questions around this team and that there is significant risk. Vegas has no interest in ragging on the knicks.
Its not half empty and its not half full. Its risk factors that are there. You don't even see that you always have a bias, and that is fine just recognize it. Again, vegas does not rag on the knicks and fans who have their own minds and beliefs are not ragging. "its so un american", sound familiar?
People who like every move are obviously just koolaid drinkers who just want to drink and people who hate every move are just silly haters with grudges.
Some like some moves and dislike others. Very few of these though and getting fewer. Yellow, Bonn, GB, Guns, Knickcity, crzydmps (when he had a good night sleep), Ned, Dk (though is a bit of a hater :-) ), and some others but wish there were more guys with open minds here who can think for themselves.
And its amazing how far this mentality goes which shocked the hell out of me in the Rose thread, which of course was brushed aside because its not pure knicks love.
I know that my methods of judgement are not exactly the same as yours but that doesn't mean I or anyone else doesn't have an open mind. IN FACT it is we who are NOT just buying the vegas or pro analysts line that are displaying an open mind on what the Knicks could be this year. We're reading the stat driven predictions and we are taking into account other factors that they are not.
again, predictions are based on the past performances. they're not going to be based upon what is unseen, unfounded, and unprovable.
you are basing your predictions on what you *hope* will happen. somehow you are driven to conflate your *hope* with the blindness of statisticians and oddsmakers.
I understand how the predictions are being made. I'm not sure that you understand that it's not just HOPE that forms the basis of my views. I'm adding other factors that aren't using RPM or WS/48 alone.
These predictions from the Pros aren't infallible and they can't account for everything, although they seek to achieve that goal one day. They are not there yet!!! They DON'T have a stat for how Hornacek will impact the roster or how this particular group will respond and function together as a unit. They don't have a stat that can tell you how Noah will respond to playing in NY or how Rose and Jennings will respond with everything on the line for a new contract.
Pelton said that coaching changes generally cause win projections to go down.
you are misusing this prediction. Perhaps this is across the board though I am sure that there is much more to it.
Hornacek taking over rambis is not the same as Dell Harris or Rudy T taking over for Phil Jackson.
mreinman wrote:CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:Just wondering what would ever make you think that I don't read and listen to everything I can get my hands on about the Knicks? I know there is another side and I know the math behind it. But I don't see the glass half empty approach from fans before the season even starts.CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:Well said. I get cautious optimism. But I think there is a lot to get excited about. I really like the young guys that the Knicks brought in. I think NDour, and Willy have a shot at being good rotation level pros. I also think Noah was a great addition. Rose's trainer and his teammates have been extremely positive about how he is doing. I guess I don't get pushing that all aside to rag on the team I root for.jrodmc wrote:Knixkik wrote:jrodmc wrote:This sounds amazingly alot like a lovechild rant from Hinkie/ChuckyBooBoo:This is why Knicks fans should be rooting for a slow start that turns into a midseason Melo trade and three months of losing. Somehow, this team already nailed the hardest part of tanking. Now they just need more help, and preferably help that's under the age of 30. Even if you're not sure about the superstars in this draft—Giles could be elite if healthy, Fultz looks incredible— there are potential All-Stars dotting the board that would be perfect running mates with Porzingis. So, forget the playoffs. Be smart, Knicks. Derrick Rose is ready to take 25 shots-a-game. Hornacek's defense could give up 110 points-a-night. They're warming the tanks up in Latvia. Let's make this happen.So the Knicks, not the Sixers have nailed tanking. And we need more yoots. Lot's more yoots. Because KP6 want's nothing more than to lose, lose, lose. And a lineup with Noah and Porzingis are going to give up 110 points a night. Got ya.
When is this shit ever going to end? When the Sixers franchise decides to become the new NBDL team for Golden State?
This is the part i am glad you mention that everyone who wants to tank forgets about. Surrounding a young player with veterans who know how to win and giving yourself a chance to play in meaningful games (playoffs and/or late-season games to compete for playoffs) is the most important thing for a young player who you want to give the keys to the franchise. Not tank, tank, and more tank for a chance at some decent players along the same career timeline. You can be resourceful to add supporting players, draft well in the middle of the first round, and leave no stone unturned. Plus, trying to win is a lot more fun than trying to lose, at least for true fans. Good franchises (like the Spurs) do not need to tank to find good players in the draft, in free agency, and even those undrafted or overseas.
It's a fact that no one, outside of our favorite civil court suit defendant, is picking the Knicks to be instant contenders.
It's a fact that actual NBA analysts, who may just may more know more about the NBA than Vegas mathematicians, like JVG, Greg Anthony are picking the Knicks to make the playoffs.
It's a fact than anyone with anything approaching even a miniscule level of NBA IQ realizes that the Knicks back court and bench are vastly improved, younger, and not (at least in the case of the bench) a various collection of NBDL flotsam.
It's a fact that Phil invested a large sum to sign Noah, and this would not be consistent with the Hinkie model of franchise destruction.
It's a fact that we've been listening to the greatness of the tanking model regarding Philly for years, ever since they drafted MCW and then traded him away. It's a fact you can count their wins since without a calculator.
It's my opinion that what everyone was pining for during the early off-season, vastly improving the backcourt, has occurred. And without losing any further draft picks, either.But please, keep ignoring the words No Trade Clause, and keep plying the
1) "it's best for my personal pariah who's now outlived all the hoops I wanted him to jump through, to go somewhere else for his own good. Really, I want Melo to have a chip"
2) I love KP so much it makes my gonads shrivel up and die to think he might have some level of success with my personal pariah.
3) I really only want to watch AAU basketball, because I firmly believe that, despite all the evidence to the contrary, veterans are not good for sheehit.It never gets old, and it's great to know the bastions of negativity will always be there, serving a greater purpose for those of us who just love the Knicks more than our own fuhucking stupid opinions and idiotic fanboy versions of BB IQ, having never played, coached or even been a clerk in an NBA office.
Rock on, haters!
Makes me laugh! Have these guys even read anything KP has been saying. HE'S ECSTATIC to be playing with good players!!! I mean he isn't hoping to spend the next few years struggling to get wins and praying we strike gold again in the draft. If you have no choice but to lose because your team stinks and you have no way to improve, then you are fine with looking to the draft. The Knicks weren't in that situation. They already had Melo and he wasn't going anywhere, so the best thing to do is to improve the team around KP and help him to develop even faster.Because you don't get that there can possible another side to you view as a fan. If you read most outsiders takes + vegas predictions you will see that there are many issues factored into their predictions that you seem to be pushing aside. They don't brush by things like injury risks just like insurance underwriters don't ignore these things, and just like actuaries etc ... The silly statement of "but any team can have injuries" is beyond stupid and completely missing the boat. There are many question marks here for a reason. Can they beat the odds? Of course they can ANYBODY CAN BEAT ANY ODDS.
On the flip side, JVG picked the knicks to win close to fifty games and raved about Phil Jackson (though dissed the triangle) so that is interesting, but JVG is funny like that, especially with Phil. He is always playing poker when he talks about the knicks.
I am picking them to beat the vegas predictions though I am an optimistic homer so my opinion is biased. I do think that the knicks will have many injuries as predicted though. Most of my optimism is Hornacek. I hope that he is not handcuffed. And, I think that Lee and Jennings were very solid pickups. I don't think Rose will be here more than this season and I definitely don't think the Noah (who I adore) is gonna live up to his contract. I think that Melo will be a solid this year but continue with nagging injuries that will mess with his jump shot. KP can go either way ... He can breakout or have a sophomore slump. He is certainly no where near a star yet and his physique scares the hell out of me since guys that size are at a higher risk to injury. I really hope that Hornacek builds his game in a way that will limit his risk. These 3 point shot fakes and drives are suicide plays that can really get him hurt. I want him more as a spot up deep shooter or down low (depending on matchups) but I do NOT want him driving in traffic!
The knicks need to beat the odds but lets not be surprised that there are many questions around this team and that there is significant risk. Vegas has no interest in ragging on the knicks.
Its not half empty and its not half full. Its risk factors that are there. You don't even see that you always have a bias, and that is fine just recognize it. Again, vegas does not rag on the knicks and fans who have their own minds and beliefs are not ragging. "its so un american", sound familiar?
People who like every move are obviously just koolaid drinkers who just want to drink and people who hate every move are just silly haters with grudges.
Some like some moves and dislike others. Very few of these though and getting fewer. Yellow, Bonn, GB, Guns, Knickcity, crzydmps (when he had a good night sleep), Ned, Dk (though is a bit of a hater :-) ), and some others but wish there were more guys with open minds here who can think for themselves.
And its amazing how far this mentality goes which shocked the hell out of me in the Rose thread, which of course was brushed aside because its not pure knicks love.
I know that my methods of judgement are not exactly the same as yours but that doesn't mean I or anyone else doesn't have an open mind. IN FACT it is we who are NOT just buying the vegas or pro analysts line that are displaying an open mind on what the Knicks could be this year. We're reading the stat driven predictions and we are taking into account other factors that they are not.
again, predictions are based on the past performances. they're not going to be based upon what is unseen, unfounded, and unprovable.
you are basing your predictions on what you *hope* will happen. somehow you are driven to conflate your *hope* with the blindness of statisticians and oddsmakers.
I understand how the predictions are being made. I'm not sure that you understand that it's not just HOPE that forms the basis of my views. I'm adding other factors that aren't using RPM or WS/48 alone.
These predictions from the Pros aren't infallible and they can't account for everything, although they seek to achieve that goal one day. They are not there yet!!! They DON'T have a stat for how Hornacek will impact the roster or how this particular group will respond and function together as a unit. They don't have a stat that can tell you how Noah will respond to playing in NY or how Rose and Jennings will respond with everything on the line for a new contract.
Pelton said that coaching changes generally cause win projections to go down.
you are misusing this prediction. Perhaps this is across the board though I am sure that there is much more to it.Hornacek taking over rambis is not the same as Dell Harris or Rudy T taking over for Phil Jackson.
I believe he said Thibs was the only new hire that had a positive impact on prediction models. I believe it was his podcast on locked on the nba. Its worth a listen even though it is a few weeks old.
nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:Just wondering what would ever make you think that I don't read and listen to everything I can get my hands on about the Knicks? I know there is another side and I know the math behind it. But I don't see the glass half empty approach from fans before the season even starts.CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:Well said. I get cautious optimism. But I think there is a lot to get excited about. I really like the young guys that the Knicks brought in. I think NDour, and Willy have a shot at being good rotation level pros. I also think Noah was a great addition. Rose's trainer and his teammates have been extremely positive about how he is doing. I guess I don't get pushing that all aside to rag on the team I root for.jrodmc wrote:Knixkik wrote:jrodmc wrote:This sounds amazingly alot like a lovechild rant from Hinkie/ChuckyBooBoo:This is why Knicks fans should be rooting for a slow start that turns into a midseason Melo trade and three months of losing. Somehow, this team already nailed the hardest part of tanking. Now they just need more help, and preferably help that's under the age of 30. Even if you're not sure about the superstars in this draft—Giles could be elite if healthy, Fultz looks incredible— there are potential All-Stars dotting the board that would be perfect running mates with Porzingis. So, forget the playoffs. Be smart, Knicks. Derrick Rose is ready to take 25 shots-a-game. Hornacek's defense could give up 110 points-a-night. They're warming the tanks up in Latvia. Let's make this happen.So the Knicks, not the Sixers have nailed tanking. And we need more yoots. Lot's more yoots. Because KP6 want's nothing more than to lose, lose, lose. And a lineup with Noah and Porzingis are going to give up 110 points a night. Got ya.
When is this shit ever going to end? When the Sixers franchise decides to become the new NBDL team for Golden State?
This is the part i am glad you mention that everyone who wants to tank forgets about. Surrounding a young player with veterans who know how to win and giving yourself a chance to play in meaningful games (playoffs and/or late-season games to compete for playoffs) is the most important thing for a young player who you want to give the keys to the franchise. Not tank, tank, and more tank for a chance at some decent players along the same career timeline. You can be resourceful to add supporting players, draft well in the middle of the first round, and leave no stone unturned. Plus, trying to win is a lot more fun than trying to lose, at least for true fans. Good franchises (like the Spurs) do not need to tank to find good players in the draft, in free agency, and even those undrafted or overseas.
It's a fact that no one, outside of our favorite civil court suit defendant, is picking the Knicks to be instant contenders.
It's a fact that actual NBA analysts, who may just may more know more about the NBA than Vegas mathematicians, like JVG, Greg Anthony are picking the Knicks to make the playoffs.
It's a fact than anyone with anything approaching even a miniscule level of NBA IQ realizes that the Knicks back court and bench are vastly improved, younger, and not (at least in the case of the bench) a various collection of NBDL flotsam.
It's a fact that Phil invested a large sum to sign Noah, and this would not be consistent with the Hinkie model of franchise destruction.
It's a fact that we've been listening to the greatness of the tanking model regarding Philly for years, ever since they drafted MCW and then traded him away. It's a fact you can count their wins since without a calculator.
It's my opinion that what everyone was pining for during the early off-season, vastly improving the backcourt, has occurred. And without losing any further draft picks, either.But please, keep ignoring the words No Trade Clause, and keep plying the
1) "it's best for my personal pariah who's now outlived all the hoops I wanted him to jump through, to go somewhere else for his own good. Really, I want Melo to have a chip"
2) I love KP so much it makes my gonads shrivel up and die to think he might have some level of success with my personal pariah.
3) I really only want to watch AAU basketball, because I firmly believe that, despite all the evidence to the contrary, veterans are not good for sheehit.It never gets old, and it's great to know the bastions of negativity will always be there, serving a greater purpose for those of us who just love the Knicks more than our own fuhucking stupid opinions and idiotic fanboy versions of BB IQ, having never played, coached or even been a clerk in an NBA office.
Rock on, haters!
Makes me laugh! Have these guys even read anything KP has been saying. HE'S ECSTATIC to be playing with good players!!! I mean he isn't hoping to spend the next few years struggling to get wins and praying we strike gold again in the draft. If you have no choice but to lose because your team stinks and you have no way to improve, then you are fine with looking to the draft. The Knicks weren't in that situation. They already had Melo and he wasn't going anywhere, so the best thing to do is to improve the team around KP and help him to develop even faster.Because you don't get that there can possible another side to you view as a fan. If you read most outsiders takes + vegas predictions you will see that there are many issues factored into their predictions that you seem to be pushing aside. They don't brush by things like injury risks just like insurance underwriters don't ignore these things, and just like actuaries etc ... The silly statement of "but any team can have injuries" is beyond stupid and completely missing the boat. There are many question marks here for a reason. Can they beat the odds? Of course they can ANYBODY CAN BEAT ANY ODDS.
On the flip side, JVG picked the knicks to win close to fifty games and raved about Phil Jackson (though dissed the triangle) so that is interesting, but JVG is funny like that, especially with Phil. He is always playing poker when he talks about the knicks.
I am picking them to beat the vegas predictions though I am an optimistic homer so my opinion is biased. I do think that the knicks will have many injuries as predicted though. Most of my optimism is Hornacek. I hope that he is not handcuffed. And, I think that Lee and Jennings were very solid pickups. I don't think Rose will be here more than this season and I definitely don't think the Noah (who I adore) is gonna live up to his contract. I think that Melo will be a solid this year but continue with nagging injuries that will mess with his jump shot. KP can go either way ... He can breakout or have a sophomore slump. He is certainly no where near a star yet and his physique scares the hell out of me since guys that size are at a higher risk to injury. I really hope that Hornacek builds his game in a way that will limit his risk. These 3 point shot fakes and drives are suicide plays that can really get him hurt. I want him more as a spot up deep shooter or down low (depending on matchups) but I do NOT want him driving in traffic!
The knicks need to beat the odds but lets not be surprised that there are many questions around this team and that there is significant risk. Vegas has no interest in ragging on the knicks.
Its not half empty and its not half full. Its risk factors that are there. You don't even see that you always have a bias, and that is fine just recognize it. Again, vegas does not rag on the knicks and fans who have their own minds and beliefs are not ragging. "its so un american", sound familiar?
People who like every move are obviously just koolaid drinkers who just want to drink and people who hate every move are just silly haters with grudges.
Some like some moves and dislike others. Very few of these though and getting fewer. Yellow, Bonn, GB, Guns, Knickcity, crzydmps (when he had a good night sleep), Ned, Dk (though is a bit of a hater :-) ), and some others but wish there were more guys with open minds here who can think for themselves.
And its amazing how far this mentality goes which shocked the hell out of me in the Rose thread, which of course was brushed aside because its not pure knicks love.
I know that my methods of judgement are not exactly the same as yours but that doesn't mean I or anyone else doesn't have an open mind. IN FACT it is we who are NOT just buying the vegas or pro analysts line that are displaying an open mind on what the Knicks could be this year. We're reading the stat driven predictions and we are taking into account other factors that they are not.
this is pretty funny :-)
vegas does not have a bias and you do (to the umpth degree), funny comparison. To make an unbiased prediction one needs to be critical of everything in an unbiased way.
Basketball is played by HUMANS and not robots. Using numbers is cold and unemotional but not infallible because... humans! There's more to it than just numbers! Numbers suggest that it was highly unlikely that the Cavs should've come back and beat the Warriors! The unmeasurable factor kicked in.
you just said pretty much nothing ... at least I think you did.
Do you think that Vegas odds makers had any meetings around this or did they just run a formula?
Again, the fact that you are proving that these systems are flawed due to clevelands come back just means that you don't get and will never get how this works. To you its all black and white. See? They did not predict the outcome ... ha!!
Its about probabilities. If you needed a card for your flush draw and you had one card coming, you should never bet unless you are getting pot odds. So the dummy poker player pays to try to hit his flush and he got paid 2 : 1 instead of 4 : 1. Now he writes a book stating that all you really need is 2 : 1 to make the call because it worked for him. You can go buy that book
CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:Just wondering what would ever make you think that I don't read and listen to everything I can get my hands on about the Knicks? I know there is another side and I know the math behind it. But I don't see the glass half empty approach from fans before the season even starts.CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:Well said. I get cautious optimism. But I think there is a lot to get excited about. I really like the young guys that the Knicks brought in. I think NDour, and Willy have a shot at being good rotation level pros. I also think Noah was a great addition. Rose's trainer and his teammates have been extremely positive about how he is doing. I guess I don't get pushing that all aside to rag on the team I root for.jrodmc wrote:Knixkik wrote:jrodmc wrote:This sounds amazingly alot like a lovechild rant from Hinkie/ChuckyBooBoo:This is why Knicks fans should be rooting for a slow start that turns into a midseason Melo trade and three months of losing. Somehow, this team already nailed the hardest part of tanking. Now they just need more help, and preferably help that's under the age of 30. Even if you're not sure about the superstars in this draft—Giles could be elite if healthy, Fultz looks incredible— there are potential All-Stars dotting the board that would be perfect running mates with Porzingis. So, forget the playoffs. Be smart, Knicks. Derrick Rose is ready to take 25 shots-a-game. Hornacek's defense could give up 110 points-a-night. They're warming the tanks up in Latvia. Let's make this happen.So the Knicks, not the Sixers have nailed tanking. And we need more yoots. Lot's more yoots. Because KP6 want's nothing more than to lose, lose, lose. And a lineup with Noah and Porzingis are going to give up 110 points a night. Got ya.
When is this shit ever going to end? When the Sixers franchise decides to become the new NBDL team for Golden State?
This is the part i am glad you mention that everyone who wants to tank forgets about. Surrounding a young player with veterans who know how to win and giving yourself a chance to play in meaningful games (playoffs and/or late-season games to compete for playoffs) is the most important thing for a young player who you want to give the keys to the franchise. Not tank, tank, and more tank for a chance at some decent players along the same career timeline. You can be resourceful to add supporting players, draft well in the middle of the first round, and leave no stone unturned. Plus, trying to win is a lot more fun than trying to lose, at least for true fans. Good franchises (like the Spurs) do not need to tank to find good players in the draft, in free agency, and even those undrafted or overseas.
It's a fact that no one, outside of our favorite civil court suit defendant, is picking the Knicks to be instant contenders.
It's a fact that actual NBA analysts, who may just may more know more about the NBA than Vegas mathematicians, like JVG, Greg Anthony are picking the Knicks to make the playoffs.
It's a fact than anyone with anything approaching even a miniscule level of NBA IQ realizes that the Knicks back court and bench are vastly improved, younger, and not (at least in the case of the bench) a various collection of NBDL flotsam.
It's a fact that Phil invested a large sum to sign Noah, and this would not be consistent with the Hinkie model of franchise destruction.
It's a fact that we've been listening to the greatness of the tanking model regarding Philly for years, ever since they drafted MCW and then traded him away. It's a fact you can count their wins since without a calculator.
It's my opinion that what everyone was pining for during the early off-season, vastly improving the backcourt, has occurred. And without losing any further draft picks, either.But please, keep ignoring the words No Trade Clause, and keep plying the
1) "it's best for my personal pariah who's now outlived all the hoops I wanted him to jump through, to go somewhere else for his own good. Really, I want Melo to have a chip"
2) I love KP so much it makes my gonads shrivel up and die to think he might have some level of success with my personal pariah.
3) I really only want to watch AAU basketball, because I firmly believe that, despite all the evidence to the contrary, veterans are not good for sheehit.It never gets old, and it's great to know the bastions of negativity will always be there, serving a greater purpose for those of us who just love the Knicks more than our own fuhucking stupid opinions and idiotic fanboy versions of BB IQ, having never played, coached or even been a clerk in an NBA office.
Rock on, haters!
Makes me laugh! Have these guys even read anything KP has been saying. HE'S ECSTATIC to be playing with good players!!! I mean he isn't hoping to spend the next few years struggling to get wins and praying we strike gold again in the draft. If you have no choice but to lose because your team stinks and you have no way to improve, then you are fine with looking to the draft. The Knicks weren't in that situation. They already had Melo and he wasn't going anywhere, so the best thing to do is to improve the team around KP and help him to develop even faster.Because you don't get that there can possible another side to you view as a fan. If you read most outsiders takes + vegas predictions you will see that there are many issues factored into their predictions that you seem to be pushing aside. They don't brush by things like injury risks just like insurance underwriters don't ignore these things, and just like actuaries etc ... The silly statement of "but any team can have injuries" is beyond stupid and completely missing the boat. There are many question marks here for a reason. Can they beat the odds? Of course they can ANYBODY CAN BEAT ANY ODDS.
On the flip side, JVG picked the knicks to win close to fifty games and raved about Phil Jackson (though dissed the triangle) so that is interesting, but JVG is funny like that, especially with Phil. He is always playing poker when he talks about the knicks.
I am picking them to beat the vegas predictions though I am an optimistic homer so my opinion is biased. I do think that the knicks will have many injuries as predicted though. Most of my optimism is Hornacek. I hope that he is not handcuffed. And, I think that Lee and Jennings were very solid pickups. I don't think Rose will be here more than this season and I definitely don't think the Noah (who I adore) is gonna live up to his contract. I think that Melo will be a solid this year but continue with nagging injuries that will mess with his jump shot. KP can go either way ... He can breakout or have a sophomore slump. He is certainly no where near a star yet and his physique scares the hell out of me since guys that size are at a higher risk to injury. I really hope that Hornacek builds his game in a way that will limit his risk. These 3 point shot fakes and drives are suicide plays that can really get him hurt. I want him more as a spot up deep shooter or down low (depending on matchups) but I do NOT want him driving in traffic!
The knicks need to beat the odds but lets not be surprised that there are many questions around this team and that there is significant risk. Vegas has no interest in ragging on the knicks.
Its not half empty and its not half full. Its risk factors that are there. You don't even see that you always have a bias, and that is fine just recognize it. Again, vegas does not rag on the knicks and fans who have their own minds and beliefs are not ragging. "its so un american", sound familiar?
People who like every move are obviously just koolaid drinkers who just want to drink and people who hate every move are just silly haters with grudges.
Some like some moves and dislike others. Very few of these though and getting fewer. Yellow, Bonn, GB, Guns, Knickcity, crzydmps (when he had a good night sleep), Ned, Dk (though is a bit of a hater :-) ), and some others but wish there were more guys with open minds here who can think for themselves.
And its amazing how far this mentality goes which shocked the hell out of me in the Rose thread, which of course was brushed aside because its not pure knicks love.
I know that my methods of judgement are not exactly the same as yours but that doesn't mean I or anyone else doesn't have an open mind. IN FACT it is we who are NOT just buying the vegas or pro analysts line that are displaying an open mind on what the Knicks could be this year. We're reading the stat driven predictions and we are taking into account other factors that they are not.
again, predictions are based on the past performances. they're not going to be based upon what is unseen, unfounded, and unprovable.
you are basing your predictions on what you *hope* will happen. somehow you are driven to conflate your *hope* with the blindness of statisticians and oddsmakers.
I understand how the predictions are being made. I'm not sure that you understand that it's not just HOPE that forms the basis of my views. I'm adding other factors that aren't using RPM or WS/48 alone.
These predictions from the Pros aren't infallible and they can't account for everything, although they seek to achieve that goal one day. They are not there yet!!! They DON'T have a stat for how Hornacek will impact the roster or how this particular group will respond and function together as a unit. They don't have a stat that can tell you how Noah will respond to playing in NY or how Rose and Jennings will respond with everything on the line for a new contract.
Pelton said that coaching changes generally cause win projections to go down.
you are misusing this prediction. Perhaps this is across the board though I am sure that there is much more to it.Hornacek taking over rambis is not the same as Dell Harris or Rudy T taking over for Phil Jackson.
I believe he said Thibs was the only new hire that had a positive impact on prediction models. I believe it was his podcast on locked on the nba. Its worth a listen even though it is a few weeks old.
That would be quite surprising. Being that so many coaches increase wins does that mean that those predictions are always wrong?
Or do they give a low percentage change and some beat the odds but most don't? Can you link this?
mreinman wrote:CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:Just wondering what would ever make you think that I don't read and listen to everything I can get my hands on about the Knicks? I know there is another side and I know the math behind it. But I don't see the glass half empty approach from fans before the season even starts.CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:Well said. I get cautious optimism. But I think there is a lot to get excited about. I really like the young guys that the Knicks brought in. I think NDour, and Willy have a shot at being good rotation level pros. I also think Noah was a great addition. Rose's trainer and his teammates have been extremely positive about how he is doing. I guess I don't get pushing that all aside to rag on the team I root for.jrodmc wrote:Knixkik wrote:jrodmc wrote:This sounds amazingly alot like a lovechild rant from Hinkie/ChuckyBooBoo:This is why Knicks fans should be rooting for a slow start that turns into a midseason Melo trade and three months of losing. Somehow, this team already nailed the hardest part of tanking. Now they just need more help, and preferably help that's under the age of 30. Even if you're not sure about the superstars in this draft—Giles could be elite if healthy, Fultz looks incredible— there are potential All-Stars dotting the board that would be perfect running mates with Porzingis. So, forget the playoffs. Be smart, Knicks. Derrick Rose is ready to take 25 shots-a-game. Hornacek's defense could give up 110 points-a-night. They're warming the tanks up in Latvia. Let's make this happen.So the Knicks, not the Sixers have nailed tanking. And we need more yoots. Lot's more yoots. Because KP6 want's nothing more than to lose, lose, lose. And a lineup with Noah and Porzingis are going to give up 110 points a night. Got ya.
When is this shit ever going to end? When the Sixers franchise decides to become the new NBDL team for Golden State?
This is the part i am glad you mention that everyone who wants to tank forgets about. Surrounding a young player with veterans who know how to win and giving yourself a chance to play in meaningful games (playoffs and/or late-season games to compete for playoffs) is the most important thing for a young player who you want to give the keys to the franchise. Not tank, tank, and more tank for a chance at some decent players along the same career timeline. You can be resourceful to add supporting players, draft well in the middle of the first round, and leave no stone unturned. Plus, trying to win is a lot more fun than trying to lose, at least for true fans. Good franchises (like the Spurs) do not need to tank to find good players in the draft, in free agency, and even those undrafted or overseas.
It's a fact that no one, outside of our favorite civil court suit defendant, is picking the Knicks to be instant contenders.
It's a fact that actual NBA analysts, who may just may more know more about the NBA than Vegas mathematicians, like JVG, Greg Anthony are picking the Knicks to make the playoffs.
It's a fact than anyone with anything approaching even a miniscule level of NBA IQ realizes that the Knicks back court and bench are vastly improved, younger, and not (at least in the case of the bench) a various collection of NBDL flotsam.
It's a fact that Phil invested a large sum to sign Noah, and this would not be consistent with the Hinkie model of franchise destruction.
It's a fact that we've been listening to the greatness of the tanking model regarding Philly for years, ever since they drafted MCW and then traded him away. It's a fact you can count their wins since without a calculator.
It's my opinion that what everyone was pining for during the early off-season, vastly improving the backcourt, has occurred. And without losing any further draft picks, either.But please, keep ignoring the words No Trade Clause, and keep plying the
1) "it's best for my personal pariah who's now outlived all the hoops I wanted him to jump through, to go somewhere else for his own good. Really, I want Melo to have a chip"
2) I love KP so much it makes my gonads shrivel up and die to think he might have some level of success with my personal pariah.
3) I really only want to watch AAU basketball, because I firmly believe that, despite all the evidence to the contrary, veterans are not good for sheehit.It never gets old, and it's great to know the bastions of negativity will always be there, serving a greater purpose for those of us who just love the Knicks more than our own fuhucking stupid opinions and idiotic fanboy versions of BB IQ, having never played, coached or even been a clerk in an NBA office.
Rock on, haters!
Makes me laugh! Have these guys even read anything KP has been saying. HE'S ECSTATIC to be playing with good players!!! I mean he isn't hoping to spend the next few years struggling to get wins and praying we strike gold again in the draft. If you have no choice but to lose because your team stinks and you have no way to improve, then you are fine with looking to the draft. The Knicks weren't in that situation. They already had Melo and he wasn't going anywhere, so the best thing to do is to improve the team around KP and help him to develop even faster.Because you don't get that there can possible another side to you view as a fan. If you read most outsiders takes + vegas predictions you will see that there are many issues factored into their predictions that you seem to be pushing aside. They don't brush by things like injury risks just like insurance underwriters don't ignore these things, and just like actuaries etc ... The silly statement of "but any team can have injuries" is beyond stupid and completely missing the boat. There are many question marks here for a reason. Can they beat the odds? Of course they can ANYBODY CAN BEAT ANY ODDS.
On the flip side, JVG picked the knicks to win close to fifty games and raved about Phil Jackson (though dissed the triangle) so that is interesting, but JVG is funny like that, especially with Phil. He is always playing poker when he talks about the knicks.
I am picking them to beat the vegas predictions though I am an optimistic homer so my opinion is biased. I do think that the knicks will have many injuries as predicted though. Most of my optimism is Hornacek. I hope that he is not handcuffed. And, I think that Lee and Jennings were very solid pickups. I don't think Rose will be here more than this season and I definitely don't think the Noah (who I adore) is gonna live up to his contract. I think that Melo will be a solid this year but continue with nagging injuries that will mess with his jump shot. KP can go either way ... He can breakout or have a sophomore slump. He is certainly no where near a star yet and his physique scares the hell out of me since guys that size are at a higher risk to injury. I really hope that Hornacek builds his game in a way that will limit his risk. These 3 point shot fakes and drives are suicide plays that can really get him hurt. I want him more as a spot up deep shooter or down low (depending on matchups) but I do NOT want him driving in traffic!
The knicks need to beat the odds but lets not be surprised that there are many questions around this team and that there is significant risk. Vegas has no interest in ragging on the knicks.
Its not half empty and its not half full. Its risk factors that are there. You don't even see that you always have a bias, and that is fine just recognize it. Again, vegas does not rag on the knicks and fans who have their own minds and beliefs are not ragging. "its so un american", sound familiar?
People who like every move are obviously just koolaid drinkers who just want to drink and people who hate every move are just silly haters with grudges.
Some like some moves and dislike others. Very few of these though and getting fewer. Yellow, Bonn, GB, Guns, Knickcity, crzydmps (when he had a good night sleep), Ned, Dk (though is a bit of a hater :-) ), and some others but wish there were more guys with open minds here who can think for themselves.
And its amazing how far this mentality goes which shocked the hell out of me in the Rose thread, which of course was brushed aside because its not pure knicks love.
I know that my methods of judgement are not exactly the same as yours but that doesn't mean I or anyone else doesn't have an open mind. IN FACT it is we who are NOT just buying the vegas or pro analysts line that are displaying an open mind on what the Knicks could be this year. We're reading the stat driven predictions and we are taking into account other factors that they are not.
again, predictions are based on the past performances. they're not going to be based upon what is unseen, unfounded, and unprovable.
you are basing your predictions on what you *hope* will happen. somehow you are driven to conflate your *hope* with the blindness of statisticians and oddsmakers.
I understand how the predictions are being made. I'm not sure that you understand that it's not just HOPE that forms the basis of my views. I'm adding other factors that aren't using RPM or WS/48 alone.
These predictions from the Pros aren't infallible and they can't account for everything, although they seek to achieve that goal one day. They are not there yet!!! They DON'T have a stat for how Hornacek will impact the roster or how this particular group will respond and function together as a unit. They don't have a stat that can tell you how Noah will respond to playing in NY or how Rose and Jennings will respond with everything on the line for a new contract.
Pelton said that coaching changes generally cause win projections to go down.
you are misusing this prediction. Perhaps this is across the board though I am sure that there is much more to it.Hornacek taking over rambis is not the same as Dell Harris or Rudy T taking over for Phil Jackson.
I believe he said Thibs was the only new hire that had a positive impact on prediction models. I believe it was his podcast on locked on the nba. Its worth a listen even though it is a few weeks old.That would be quite surprising. Being that so many coaches increase wins does that mean that those predictions are always wrong?
Or do they give a low percentage change and some beat the odds but most don't? Can you link this?
I will link it. I believe it is from locked on the nba but it could be from locked on Knicks. I will check to see if he was on locked on Knicks. I have to do it tomorrow though. I am up too late.
CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:Just wondering what would ever make you think that I don't read and listen to everything I can get my hands on about the Knicks? I know there is another side and I know the math behind it. But I don't see the glass half empty approach from fans before the season even starts.CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:Well said. I get cautious optimism. But I think there is a lot to get excited about. I really like the young guys that the Knicks brought in. I think NDour, and Willy have a shot at being good rotation level pros. I also think Noah was a great addition. Rose's trainer and his teammates have been extremely positive about how he is doing. I guess I don't get pushing that all aside to rag on the team I root for.jrodmc wrote:Knixkik wrote:jrodmc wrote:This sounds amazingly alot like a lovechild rant from Hinkie/ChuckyBooBoo:This is why Knicks fans should be rooting for a slow start that turns into a midseason Melo trade and three months of losing. Somehow, this team already nailed the hardest part of tanking. Now they just need more help, and preferably help that's under the age of 30. Even if you're not sure about the superstars in this draft—Giles could be elite if healthy, Fultz looks incredible— there are potential All-Stars dotting the board that would be perfect running mates with Porzingis. So, forget the playoffs. Be smart, Knicks. Derrick Rose is ready to take 25 shots-a-game. Hornacek's defense could give up 110 points-a-night. They're warming the tanks up in Latvia. Let's make this happen.So the Knicks, not the Sixers have nailed tanking. And we need more yoots. Lot's more yoots. Because KP6 want's nothing more than to lose, lose, lose. And a lineup with Noah and Porzingis are going to give up 110 points a night. Got ya.
When is this shit ever going to end? When the Sixers franchise decides to become the new NBDL team for Golden State?
This is the part i am glad you mention that everyone who wants to tank forgets about. Surrounding a young player with veterans who know how to win and giving yourself a chance to play in meaningful games (playoffs and/or late-season games to compete for playoffs) is the most important thing for a young player who you want to give the keys to the franchise. Not tank, tank, and more tank for a chance at some decent players along the same career timeline. You can be resourceful to add supporting players, draft well in the middle of the first round, and leave no stone unturned. Plus, trying to win is a lot more fun than trying to lose, at least for true fans. Good franchises (like the Spurs) do not need to tank to find good players in the draft, in free agency, and even those undrafted or overseas.
It's a fact that no one, outside of our favorite civil court suit defendant, is picking the Knicks to be instant contenders.
It's a fact that actual NBA analysts, who may just may more know more about the NBA than Vegas mathematicians, like JVG, Greg Anthony are picking the Knicks to make the playoffs.
It's a fact than anyone with anything approaching even a miniscule level of NBA IQ realizes that the Knicks back court and bench are vastly improved, younger, and not (at least in the case of the bench) a various collection of NBDL flotsam.
It's a fact that Phil invested a large sum to sign Noah, and this would not be consistent with the Hinkie model of franchise destruction.
It's a fact that we've been listening to the greatness of the tanking model regarding Philly for years, ever since they drafted MCW and then traded him away. It's a fact you can count their wins since without a calculator.
It's my opinion that what everyone was pining for during the early off-season, vastly improving the backcourt, has occurred. And without losing any further draft picks, either.But please, keep ignoring the words No Trade Clause, and keep plying the
1) "it's best for my personal pariah who's now outlived all the hoops I wanted him to jump through, to go somewhere else for his own good. Really, I want Melo to have a chip"
2) I love KP so much it makes my gonads shrivel up and die to think he might have some level of success with my personal pariah.
3) I really only want to watch AAU basketball, because I firmly believe that, despite all the evidence to the contrary, veterans are not good for sheehit.It never gets old, and it's great to know the bastions of negativity will always be there, serving a greater purpose for those of us who just love the Knicks more than our own fuhucking stupid opinions and idiotic fanboy versions of BB IQ, having never played, coached or even been a clerk in an NBA office.
Rock on, haters!
Makes me laugh! Have these guys even read anything KP has been saying. HE'S ECSTATIC to be playing with good players!!! I mean he isn't hoping to spend the next few years struggling to get wins and praying we strike gold again in the draft. If you have no choice but to lose because your team stinks and you have no way to improve, then you are fine with looking to the draft. The Knicks weren't in that situation. They already had Melo and he wasn't going anywhere, so the best thing to do is to improve the team around KP and help him to develop even faster.Because you don't get that there can possible another side to you view as a fan. If you read most outsiders takes + vegas predictions you will see that there are many issues factored into their predictions that you seem to be pushing aside. They don't brush by things like injury risks just like insurance underwriters don't ignore these things, and just like actuaries etc ... The silly statement of "but any team can have injuries" is beyond stupid and completely missing the boat. There are many question marks here for a reason. Can they beat the odds? Of course they can ANYBODY CAN BEAT ANY ODDS.
On the flip side, JVG picked the knicks to win close to fifty games and raved about Phil Jackson (though dissed the triangle) so that is interesting, but JVG is funny like that, especially with Phil. He is always playing poker when he talks about the knicks.
I am picking them to beat the vegas predictions though I am an optimistic homer so my opinion is biased. I do think that the knicks will have many injuries as predicted though. Most of my optimism is Hornacek. I hope that he is not handcuffed. And, I think that Lee and Jennings were very solid pickups. I don't think Rose will be here more than this season and I definitely don't think the Noah (who I adore) is gonna live up to his contract. I think that Melo will be a solid this year but continue with nagging injuries that will mess with his jump shot. KP can go either way ... He can breakout or have a sophomore slump. He is certainly no where near a star yet and his physique scares the hell out of me since guys that size are at a higher risk to injury. I really hope that Hornacek builds his game in a way that will limit his risk. These 3 point shot fakes and drives are suicide plays that can really get him hurt. I want him more as a spot up deep shooter or down low (depending on matchups) but I do NOT want him driving in traffic!
The knicks need to beat the odds but lets not be surprised that there are many questions around this team and that there is significant risk. Vegas has no interest in ragging on the knicks.
Its not half empty and its not half full. Its risk factors that are there. You don't even see that you always have a bias, and that is fine just recognize it. Again, vegas does not rag on the knicks and fans who have their own minds and beliefs are not ragging. "its so un american", sound familiar?
People who like every move are obviously just koolaid drinkers who just want to drink and people who hate every move are just silly haters with grudges.
Some like some moves and dislike others. Very few of these though and getting fewer. Yellow, Bonn, GB, Guns, Knickcity, crzydmps (when he had a good night sleep), Ned, Dk (though is a bit of a hater :-) ), and some others but wish there were more guys with open minds here who can think for themselves.
And its amazing how far this mentality goes which shocked the hell out of me in the Rose thread, which of course was brushed aside because its not pure knicks love.
I know that my methods of judgement are not exactly the same as yours but that doesn't mean I or anyone else doesn't have an open mind. IN FACT it is we who are NOT just buying the vegas or pro analysts line that are displaying an open mind on what the Knicks could be this year. We're reading the stat driven predictions and we are taking into account other factors that they are not.
again, predictions are based on the past performances. they're not going to be based upon what is unseen, unfounded, and unprovable.
you are basing your predictions on what you *hope* will happen. somehow you are driven to conflate your *hope* with the blindness of statisticians and oddsmakers.
I understand how the predictions are being made. I'm not sure that you understand that it's not just HOPE that forms the basis of my views. I'm adding other factors that aren't using RPM or WS/48 alone.
These predictions from the Pros aren't infallible and they can't account for everything, although they seek to achieve that goal one day. They are not there yet!!! They DON'T have a stat for how Hornacek will impact the roster or how this particular group will respond and function together as a unit. They don't have a stat that can tell you how Noah will respond to playing in NY or how Rose and Jennings will respond with everything on the line for a new contract.
Pelton said that coaching changes generally cause win projections to go down.
you are misusing this prediction. Perhaps this is across the board though I am sure that there is much more to it.Hornacek taking over rambis is not the same as Dell Harris or Rudy T taking over for Phil Jackson.
I believe he said Thibs was the only new hire that had a positive impact on prediction models. I believe it was his podcast on locked on the nba. Its worth a listen even though it is a few weeks old.That would be quite surprising. Being that so many coaches increase wins does that mean that those predictions are always wrong?
Or do they give a low percentage change and some beat the odds but most don't? Can you link this?
I will link it. I believe it is from locked on the nba but it could be from locked on Knicks. I will check to see if he was on locked on Knicks. I have to do it tomorrow though. I am up too late.
Thanks! And get some sleep ...
BUT NOT BEFORE YOU CHECK OUT THE GOODIES THAT YOU ASKED FOR IN THE OTHER THREAD :-)
mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:Just wondering what would ever make you think that I don't read and listen to everything I can get my hands on about the Knicks? I know there is another side and I know the math behind it. But I don't see the glass half empty approach from fans before the season even starts.CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:Well said. I get cautious optimism. But I think there is a lot to get excited about. I really like the young guys that the Knicks brought in. I think NDour, and Willy have a shot at being good rotation level pros. I also think Noah was a great addition. Rose's trainer and his teammates have been extremely positive about how he is doing. I guess I don't get pushing that all aside to rag on the team I root for.jrodmc wrote:Knixkik wrote:jrodmc wrote:This sounds amazingly alot like a lovechild rant from Hinkie/ChuckyBooBoo:This is why Knicks fans should be rooting for a slow start that turns into a midseason Melo trade and three months of losing. Somehow, this team already nailed the hardest part of tanking. Now they just need more help, and preferably help that's under the age of 30. Even if you're not sure about the superstars in this draft—Giles could be elite if healthy, Fultz looks incredible— there are potential All-Stars dotting the board that would be perfect running mates with Porzingis. So, forget the playoffs. Be smart, Knicks. Derrick Rose is ready to take 25 shots-a-game. Hornacek's defense could give up 110 points-a-night. They're warming the tanks up in Latvia. Let's make this happen.So the Knicks, not the Sixers have nailed tanking. And we need more yoots. Lot's more yoots. Because KP6 want's nothing more than to lose, lose, lose. And a lineup with Noah and Porzingis are going to give up 110 points a night. Got ya.
When is this shit ever going to end? When the Sixers franchise decides to become the new NBDL team for Golden State?
This is the part i am glad you mention that everyone who wants to tank forgets about. Surrounding a young player with veterans who know how to win and giving yourself a chance to play in meaningful games (playoffs and/or late-season games to compete for playoffs) is the most important thing for a young player who you want to give the keys to the franchise. Not tank, tank, and more tank for a chance at some decent players along the same career timeline. You can be resourceful to add supporting players, draft well in the middle of the first round, and leave no stone unturned. Plus, trying to win is a lot more fun than trying to lose, at least for true fans. Good franchises (like the Spurs) do not need to tank to find good players in the draft, in free agency, and even those undrafted or overseas.
It's a fact that no one, outside of our favorite civil court suit defendant, is picking the Knicks to be instant contenders.
It's a fact that actual NBA analysts, who may just may more know more about the NBA than Vegas mathematicians, like JVG, Greg Anthony are picking the Knicks to make the playoffs.
It's a fact than anyone with anything approaching even a miniscule level of NBA IQ realizes that the Knicks back court and bench are vastly improved, younger, and not (at least in the case of the bench) a various collection of NBDL flotsam.
It's a fact that Phil invested a large sum to sign Noah, and this would not be consistent with the Hinkie model of franchise destruction.
It's a fact that we've been listening to the greatness of the tanking model regarding Philly for years, ever since they drafted MCW and then traded him away. It's a fact you can count their wins since without a calculator.
It's my opinion that what everyone was pining for during the early off-season, vastly improving the backcourt, has occurred. And without losing any further draft picks, either.But please, keep ignoring the words No Trade Clause, and keep plying the
1) "it's best for my personal pariah who's now outlived all the hoops I wanted him to jump through, to go somewhere else for his own good. Really, I want Melo to have a chip"
2) I love KP so much it makes my gonads shrivel up and die to think he might have some level of success with my personal pariah.
3) I really only want to watch AAU basketball, because I firmly believe that, despite all the evidence to the contrary, veterans are not good for sheehit.It never gets old, and it's great to know the bastions of negativity will always be there, serving a greater purpose for those of us who just love the Knicks more than our own fuhucking stupid opinions and idiotic fanboy versions of BB IQ, having never played, coached or even been a clerk in an NBA office.
Rock on, haters!
Makes me laugh! Have these guys even read anything KP has been saying. HE'S ECSTATIC to be playing with good players!!! I mean he isn't hoping to spend the next few years struggling to get wins and praying we strike gold again in the draft. If you have no choice but to lose because your team stinks and you have no way to improve, then you are fine with looking to the draft. The Knicks weren't in that situation. They already had Melo and he wasn't going anywhere, so the best thing to do is to improve the team around KP and help him to develop even faster.Because you don't get that there can possible another side to you view as a fan. If you read most outsiders takes + vegas predictions you will see that there are many issues factored into their predictions that you seem to be pushing aside. They don't brush by things like injury risks just like insurance underwriters don't ignore these things, and just like actuaries etc ... The silly statement of "but any team can have injuries" is beyond stupid and completely missing the boat. There are many question marks here for a reason. Can they beat the odds? Of course they can ANYBODY CAN BEAT ANY ODDS.
On the flip side, JVG picked the knicks to win close to fifty games and raved about Phil Jackson (though dissed the triangle) so that is interesting, but JVG is funny like that, especially with Phil. He is always playing poker when he talks about the knicks.
I am picking them to beat the vegas predictions though I am an optimistic homer so my opinion is biased. I do think that the knicks will have many injuries as predicted though. Most of my optimism is Hornacek. I hope that he is not handcuffed. And, I think that Lee and Jennings were very solid pickups. I don't think Rose will be here more than this season and I definitely don't think the Noah (who I adore) is gonna live up to his contract. I think that Melo will be a solid this year but continue with nagging injuries that will mess with his jump shot. KP can go either way ... He can breakout or have a sophomore slump. He is certainly no where near a star yet and his physique scares the hell out of me since guys that size are at a higher risk to injury. I really hope that Hornacek builds his game in a way that will limit his risk. These 3 point shot fakes and drives are suicide plays that can really get him hurt. I want him more as a spot up deep shooter or down low (depending on matchups) but I do NOT want him driving in traffic!
The knicks need to beat the odds but lets not be surprised that there are many questions around this team and that there is significant risk. Vegas has no interest in ragging on the knicks.
Its not half empty and its not half full. Its risk factors that are there. You don't even see that you always have a bias, and that is fine just recognize it. Again, vegas does not rag on the knicks and fans who have their own minds and beliefs are not ragging. "its so un american", sound familiar?
People who like every move are obviously just koolaid drinkers who just want to drink and people who hate every move are just silly haters with grudges.
Some like some moves and dislike others. Very few of these though and getting fewer. Yellow, Bonn, GB, Guns, Knickcity, crzydmps (when he had a good night sleep), Ned, Dk (though is a bit of a hater :-) ), and some others but wish there were more guys with open minds here who can think for themselves.
And its amazing how far this mentality goes which shocked the hell out of me in the Rose thread, which of course was brushed aside because its not pure knicks love.
I know that my methods of judgement are not exactly the same as yours but that doesn't mean I or anyone else doesn't have an open mind. IN FACT it is we who are NOT just buying the vegas or pro analysts line that are displaying an open mind on what the Knicks could be this year. We're reading the stat driven predictions and we are taking into account other factors that they are not.
this is pretty funny :-)
vegas does not have a bias and you do (to the umpth degree), funny comparison. To make an unbiased prediction one needs to be critical of everything in an unbiased way.
Basketball is played by HUMANS and not robots. Using numbers is cold and unemotional but not infallible because... humans! There's more to it than just numbers! Numbers suggest that it was highly unlikely that the Cavs should've come back and beat the Warriors! The unmeasurable factor kicked in.
you just said pretty much nothing ... at least I think you did.
Do you think that Vegas odds makers had any meetings around this or did they just run a formula?
Again, the fact that you are proving that these systems are flawed due to clevelands come back just means that you don't get and will never get how this works. To you its all black and white. See? They did not predict the outcome ... ha!!
Its about probabilities. If you needed a card for your flush draw and you had one card coming, you should never bet unless you are getting pot odds. So the dummy poker player pays to try to hit his flush and he got paid 2 : 1 instead of 4 : 1. Now he writes a book stating that all you really need is 2 : 1 to make the call because it worked for him. You can go buy that book
I understand that the odds makers are dealing with probability, but NBA Teams are not a deck of cards. The odds makers are pretty great at what they do, but i'm not buying their take on this team cuz I don't believe their methodology can account for the intangible factors with this Knicks roster including motivations for some of the key players on this team.
You can chose to believe in the odds makers, even tho if i'm not mistaken, you yourself don't believe the Knicks will only win 35 or 38 games. it seems you want to argue with me purely on principle, which is fine, but I believe that you wouldn't bet that this team ends up with only 35 or 38 wins. I bet that like me you think this team will most likely be better than that or am I wrong and you do believe the Knicks will end up with only 35 or 38 wins as predicted?
nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:Just wondering what would ever make you think that I don't read and listen to everything I can get my hands on about the Knicks? I know there is another side and I know the math behind it. But I don't see the glass half empty approach from fans before the season even starts.CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:Well said. I get cautious optimism. But I think there is a lot to get excited about. I really like the young guys that the Knicks brought in. I think NDour, and Willy have a shot at being good rotation level pros. I also think Noah was a great addition. Rose's trainer and his teammates have been extremely positive about how he is doing. I guess I don't get pushing that all aside to rag on the team I root for.jrodmc wrote:Knixkik wrote:jrodmc wrote:This sounds amazingly alot like a lovechild rant from Hinkie/ChuckyBooBoo:This is why Knicks fans should be rooting for a slow start that turns into a midseason Melo trade and three months of losing. Somehow, this team already nailed the hardest part of tanking. Now they just need more help, and preferably help that's under the age of 30. Even if you're not sure about the superstars in this draft—Giles could be elite if healthy, Fultz looks incredible— there are potential All-Stars dotting the board that would be perfect running mates with Porzingis. So, forget the playoffs. Be smart, Knicks. Derrick Rose is ready to take 25 shots-a-game. Hornacek's defense could give up 110 points-a-night. They're warming the tanks up in Latvia. Let's make this happen.So the Knicks, not the Sixers have nailed tanking. And we need more yoots. Lot's more yoots. Because KP6 want's nothing more than to lose, lose, lose. And a lineup with Noah and Porzingis are going to give up 110 points a night. Got ya.
When is this shit ever going to end? When the Sixers franchise decides to become the new NBDL team for Golden State?
This is the part i am glad you mention that everyone who wants to tank forgets about. Surrounding a young player with veterans who know how to win and giving yourself a chance to play in meaningful games (playoffs and/or late-season games to compete for playoffs) is the most important thing for a young player who you want to give the keys to the franchise. Not tank, tank, and more tank for a chance at some decent players along the same career timeline. You can be resourceful to add supporting players, draft well in the middle of the first round, and leave no stone unturned. Plus, trying to win is a lot more fun than trying to lose, at least for true fans. Good franchises (like the Spurs) do not need to tank to find good players in the draft, in free agency, and even those undrafted or overseas.
It's a fact that no one, outside of our favorite civil court suit defendant, is picking the Knicks to be instant contenders.
It's a fact that actual NBA analysts, who may just may more know more about the NBA than Vegas mathematicians, like JVG, Greg Anthony are picking the Knicks to make the playoffs.
It's a fact than anyone with anything approaching even a miniscule level of NBA IQ realizes that the Knicks back court and bench are vastly improved, younger, and not (at least in the case of the bench) a various collection of NBDL flotsam.
It's a fact that Phil invested a large sum to sign Noah, and this would not be consistent with the Hinkie model of franchise destruction.
It's a fact that we've been listening to the greatness of the tanking model regarding Philly for years, ever since they drafted MCW and then traded him away. It's a fact you can count their wins since without a calculator.
It's my opinion that what everyone was pining for during the early off-season, vastly improving the backcourt, has occurred. And without losing any further draft picks, either.But please, keep ignoring the words No Trade Clause, and keep plying the
1) "it's best for my personal pariah who's now outlived all the hoops I wanted him to jump through, to go somewhere else for his own good. Really, I want Melo to have a chip"
2) I love KP so much it makes my gonads shrivel up and die to think he might have some level of success with my personal pariah.
3) I really only want to watch AAU basketball, because I firmly believe that, despite all the evidence to the contrary, veterans are not good for sheehit.It never gets old, and it's great to know the bastions of negativity will always be there, serving a greater purpose for those of us who just love the Knicks more than our own fuhucking stupid opinions and idiotic fanboy versions of BB IQ, having never played, coached or even been a clerk in an NBA office.
Rock on, haters!
Makes me laugh! Have these guys even read anything KP has been saying. HE'S ECSTATIC to be playing with good players!!! I mean he isn't hoping to spend the next few years struggling to get wins and praying we strike gold again in the draft. If you have no choice but to lose because your team stinks and you have no way to improve, then you are fine with looking to the draft. The Knicks weren't in that situation. They already had Melo and he wasn't going anywhere, so the best thing to do is to improve the team around KP and help him to develop even faster.Because you don't get that there can possible another side to you view as a fan. If you read most outsiders takes + vegas predictions you will see that there are many issues factored into their predictions that you seem to be pushing aside. They don't brush by things like injury risks just like insurance underwriters don't ignore these things, and just like actuaries etc ... The silly statement of "but any team can have injuries" is beyond stupid and completely missing the boat. There are many question marks here for a reason. Can they beat the odds? Of course they can ANYBODY CAN BEAT ANY ODDS.
On the flip side, JVG picked the knicks to win close to fifty games and raved about Phil Jackson (though dissed the triangle) so that is interesting, but JVG is funny like that, especially with Phil. He is always playing poker when he talks about the knicks.
I am picking them to beat the vegas predictions though I am an optimistic homer so my opinion is biased. I do think that the knicks will have many injuries as predicted though. Most of my optimism is Hornacek. I hope that he is not handcuffed. And, I think that Lee and Jennings were very solid pickups. I don't think Rose will be here more than this season and I definitely don't think the Noah (who I adore) is gonna live up to his contract. I think that Melo will be a solid this year but continue with nagging injuries that will mess with his jump shot. KP can go either way ... He can breakout or have a sophomore slump. He is certainly no where near a star yet and his physique scares the hell out of me since guys that size are at a higher risk to injury. I really hope that Hornacek builds his game in a way that will limit his risk. These 3 point shot fakes and drives are suicide plays that can really get him hurt. I want him more as a spot up deep shooter or down low (depending on matchups) but I do NOT want him driving in traffic!
The knicks need to beat the odds but lets not be surprised that there are many questions around this team and that there is significant risk. Vegas has no interest in ragging on the knicks.
Its not half empty and its not half full. Its risk factors that are there. You don't even see that you always have a bias, and that is fine just recognize it. Again, vegas does not rag on the knicks and fans who have their own minds and beliefs are not ragging. "its so un american", sound familiar?
People who like every move are obviously just koolaid drinkers who just want to drink and people who hate every move are just silly haters with grudges.
Some like some moves and dislike others. Very few of these though and getting fewer. Yellow, Bonn, GB, Guns, Knickcity, crzydmps (when he had a good night sleep), Ned, Dk (though is a bit of a hater :-) ), and some others but wish there were more guys with open minds here who can think for themselves.
And its amazing how far this mentality goes which shocked the hell out of me in the Rose thread, which of course was brushed aside because its not pure knicks love.
I know that my methods of judgement are not exactly the same as yours but that doesn't mean I or anyone else doesn't have an open mind. IN FACT it is we who are NOT just buying the vegas or pro analysts line that are displaying an open mind on what the Knicks could be this year. We're reading the stat driven predictions and we are taking into account other factors that they are not.
this is pretty funny :-)
vegas does not have a bias and you do (to the umpth degree), funny comparison. To make an unbiased prediction one needs to be critical of everything in an unbiased way.
Basketball is played by HUMANS and not robots. Using numbers is cold and unemotional but not infallible because... humans! There's more to it than just numbers! Numbers suggest that it was highly unlikely that the Cavs should've come back and beat the Warriors! The unmeasurable factor kicked in.
you just said pretty much nothing ... at least I think you did.
Do you think that Vegas odds makers had any meetings around this or did they just run a formula?
Again, the fact that you are proving that these systems are flawed due to clevelands come back just means that you don't get and will never get how this works. To you its all black and white. See? They did not predict the outcome ... ha!!
Its about probabilities. If you needed a card for your flush draw and you had one card coming, you should never bet unless you are getting pot odds. So the dummy poker player pays to try to hit his flush and he got paid 2 : 1 instead of 4 : 1. Now he writes a book stating that all you really need is 2 : 1 to make the call because it worked for him. You can go buy that book
I understand that the odds makers are dealing with probability, but NBA Teams are not a deck of cards. The odds makers are pretty great at what they do, but i'm not buying their take on this team cuz I don't believe their methodology can account for the intangible factors with this Knicks roster including motivations for some of the key players on this team.You can chose to believe in the odds makers, even tho if i'm not mistaken, you yourself don't believe the Knicks will only win 35 or 38 games. it seems you want to argue with me purely on principle, which is fine, but I believe that you wouldn't bet that this team ends up with only 35 or 38 wins. I bet that like me you think this team will most likely be better than that or am I wrong and you do believe the Knicks will end up with only 35 or 38 wins as predicted?
I think that a bet that the knicks will win 38 games +/- 4 is a great bet.
You seem to have this narcissistic type of belief that you see things that even the pros can't see. This same narcissism does not allow you to see that you are mostly wrong and bloated in your predictions and that you are doing it out of love more than out of intellect.
There is nothing that you know that they don't aside from your own view that you obviously believe is infallible even though consistently proven other wise.
I think that vegas would predict that you would be about +12-15 over the street predictions year to year. 
nixluva wrote:i think on average most fans on here predict in the low 40s which is probably fair given the injury concerns of a few playersmreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:Just wondering what would ever make you think that I don't read and listen to everything I can get my hands on about the Knicks? I know there is another side and I know the math behind it. But I don't see the glass half empty approach from fans before the season even starts.CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:Well said. I get cautious optimism. But I think there is a lot to get excited about. I really like the young guys that the Knicks brought in. I think NDour, and Willy have a shot at being good rotation level pros. I also think Noah was a great addition. Rose's trainer and his teammates have been extremely positive about how he is doing. I guess I don't get pushing that all aside to rag on the team I root for.jrodmc wrote:Knixkik wrote:jrodmc wrote:This sounds amazingly alot like a lovechild rant from Hinkie/ChuckyBooBoo:This is why Knicks fans should be rooting for a slow start that turns into a midseason Melo trade and three months of losing. Somehow, this team already nailed the hardest part of tanking. Now they just need more help, and preferably help that's under the age of 30. Even if you're not sure about the superstars in this draft—Giles could be elite if healthy, Fultz looks incredible— there are potential All-Stars dotting the board that would be perfect running mates with Porzingis. So, forget the playoffs. Be smart, Knicks. Derrick Rose is ready to take 25 shots-a-game. Hornacek's defense could give up 110 points-a-night. They're warming the tanks up in Latvia. Let's make this happen.So the Knicks, not the Sixers have nailed tanking. And we need more yoots. Lot's more yoots. Because KP6 want's nothing more than to lose, lose, lose. And a lineup with Noah and Porzingis are going to give up 110 points a night. Got ya.
When is this shit ever going to end? When the Sixers franchise decides to become the new NBDL team for Golden State?
This is the part i am glad you mention that everyone who wants to tank forgets about. Surrounding a young player with veterans who know how to win and giving yourself a chance to play in meaningful games (playoffs and/or late-season games to compete for playoffs) is the most important thing for a young player who you want to give the keys to the franchise. Not tank, tank, and more tank for a chance at some decent players along the same career timeline. You can be resourceful to add supporting players, draft well in the middle of the first round, and leave no stone unturned. Plus, trying to win is a lot more fun than trying to lose, at least for true fans. Good franchises (like the Spurs) do not need to tank to find good players in the draft, in free agency, and even those undrafted or overseas.
It's a fact that no one, outside of our favorite civil court suit defendant, is picking the Knicks to be instant contenders.
It's a fact that actual NBA analysts, who may just may more know more about the NBA than Vegas mathematicians, like JVG, Greg Anthony are picking the Knicks to make the playoffs.
It's a fact than anyone with anything approaching even a miniscule level of NBA IQ realizes that the Knicks back court and bench are vastly improved, younger, and not (at least in the case of the bench) a various collection of NBDL flotsam.
It's a fact that Phil invested a large sum to sign Noah, and this would not be consistent with the Hinkie model of franchise destruction.
It's a fact that we've been listening to the greatness of the tanking model regarding Philly for years, ever since they drafted MCW and then traded him away. It's a fact you can count their wins since without a calculator.
It's my opinion that what everyone was pining for during the early off-season, vastly improving the backcourt, has occurred. And without losing any further draft picks, either.But please, keep ignoring the words No Trade Clause, and keep plying the
1) "it's best for my personal pariah who's now outlived all the hoops I wanted him to jump through, to go somewhere else for his own good. Really, I want Melo to have a chip"
2) I love KP so much it makes my gonads shrivel up and die to think he might have some level of success with my personal pariah.
3) I really only want to watch AAU basketball, because I firmly believe that, despite all the evidence to the contrary, veterans are not good for sheehit.It never gets old, and it's great to know the bastions of negativity will always be there, serving a greater purpose for those of us who just love the Knicks more than our own fuhucking stupid opinions and idiotic fanboy versions of BB IQ, having never played, coached or even been a clerk in an NBA office.
Rock on, haters!
Makes me laugh! Have these guys even read anything KP has been saying. HE'S ECSTATIC to be playing with good players!!! I mean he isn't hoping to spend the next few years struggling to get wins and praying we strike gold again in the draft. If you have no choice but to lose because your team stinks and you have no way to improve, then you are fine with looking to the draft. The Knicks weren't in that situation. They already had Melo and he wasn't going anywhere, so the best thing to do is to improve the team around KP and help him to develop even faster.Because you don't get that there can possible another side to you view as a fan. If you read most outsiders takes + vegas predictions you will see that there are many issues factored into their predictions that you seem to be pushing aside. They don't brush by things like injury risks just like insurance underwriters don't ignore these things, and just like actuaries etc ... The silly statement of "but any team can have injuries" is beyond stupid and completely missing the boat. There are many question marks here for a reason. Can they beat the odds? Of course they can ANYBODY CAN BEAT ANY ODDS.
On the flip side, JVG picked the knicks to win close to fifty games and raved about Phil Jackson (though dissed the triangle) so that is interesting, but JVG is funny like that, especially with Phil. He is always playing poker when he talks about the knicks.
I am picking them to beat the vegas predictions though I am an optimistic homer so my opinion is biased. I do think that the knicks will have many injuries as predicted though. Most of my optimism is Hornacek. I hope that he is not handcuffed. And, I think that Lee and Jennings were very solid pickups. I don't think Rose will be here more than this season and I definitely don't think the Noah (who I adore) is gonna live up to his contract. I think that Melo will be a solid this year but continue with nagging injuries that will mess with his jump shot. KP can go either way ... He can breakout or have a sophomore slump. He is certainly no where near a star yet and his physique scares the hell out of me since guys that size are at a higher risk to injury. I really hope that Hornacek builds his game in a way that will limit his risk. These 3 point shot fakes and drives are suicide plays that can really get him hurt. I want him more as a spot up deep shooter or down low (depending on matchups) but I do NOT want him driving in traffic!
The knicks need to beat the odds but lets not be surprised that there are many questions around this team and that there is significant risk. Vegas has no interest in ragging on the knicks.
Its not half empty and its not half full. Its risk factors that are there. You don't even see that you always have a bias, and that is fine just recognize it. Again, vegas does not rag on the knicks and fans who have their own minds and beliefs are not ragging. "its so un american", sound familiar?
People who like every move are obviously just koolaid drinkers who just want to drink and people who hate every move are just silly haters with grudges.
Some like some moves and dislike others. Very few of these though and getting fewer. Yellow, Bonn, GB, Guns, Knickcity, crzydmps (when he had a good night sleep), Ned, Dk (though is a bit of a hater :-) ), and some others but wish there were more guys with open minds here who can think for themselves.
And its amazing how far this mentality goes which shocked the hell out of me in the Rose thread, which of course was brushed aside because its not pure knicks love.
I know that my methods of judgement are not exactly the same as yours but that doesn't mean I or anyone else doesn't have an open mind. IN FACT it is we who are NOT just buying the vegas or pro analysts line that are displaying an open mind on what the Knicks could be this year. We're reading the stat driven predictions and we are taking into account other factors that they are not.
this is pretty funny :-)
vegas does not have a bias and you do (to the umpth degree), funny comparison. To make an unbiased prediction one needs to be critical of everything in an unbiased way.
Basketball is played by HUMANS and not robots. Using numbers is cold and unemotional but not infallible because... humans! There's more to it than just numbers! Numbers suggest that it was highly unlikely that the Cavs should've come back and beat the Warriors! The unmeasurable factor kicked in.
you just said pretty much nothing ... at least I think you did.
Do you think that Vegas odds makers had any meetings around this or did they just run a formula?
Again, the fact that you are proving that these systems are flawed due to clevelands come back just means that you don't get and will never get how this works. To you its all black and white. See? They did not predict the outcome ... ha!!
Its about probabilities. If you needed a card for your flush draw and you had one card coming, you should never bet unless you are getting pot odds. So the dummy poker player pays to try to hit his flush and he got paid 2 : 1 instead of 4 : 1. Now he writes a book stating that all you really need is 2 : 1 to make the call because it worked for him. You can go buy that book
I understand that the odds makers are dealing with probability, but NBA Teams are not a deck of cards. The odds makers are pretty great at what they do, but i'm not buying their take on this team cuz I don't believe their methodology can account for the intangible factors with this Knicks roster including motivations for some of the key players on this team.You can chose to believe in the odds makers, even tho if i'm not mistaken, you yourself don't believe the Knicks will only win 35 or 38 games. it seems you want to argue with me purely on principle, which is fine, but I believe that you wouldn't bet that this team ends up with only 35 or 38 wins. I bet that like me you think this team will most likely be better than that or am I wrong and you do believe the Knicks will end up with only 35 or 38 wins as predicted?
StarksEwing1 wrote:nixluva wrote:i think on average most fans on here predict in the low 40s which is probably fair given the injury concerns of a few playersmreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:Just wondering what would ever make you think that I don't read and listen to everything I can get my hands on about the Knicks? I know there is another side and I know the math behind it. But I don't see the glass half empty approach from fans before the season even starts.CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:Well said. I get cautious optimism. But I think there is a lot to get excited about. I really like the young guys that the Knicks brought in. I think NDour, and Willy have a shot at being good rotation level pros. I also think Noah was a great addition. Rose's trainer and his teammates have been extremely positive about how he is doing. I guess I don't get pushing that all aside to rag on the team I root for.jrodmc wrote:Knixkik wrote:jrodmc wrote:This sounds amazingly alot like a lovechild rant from Hinkie/ChuckyBooBoo:This is why Knicks fans should be rooting for a slow start that turns into a midseason Melo trade and three months of losing. Somehow, this team already nailed the hardest part of tanking. Now they just need more help, and preferably help that's under the age of 30. Even if you're not sure about the superstars in this draft—Giles could be elite if healthy, Fultz looks incredible— there are potential All-Stars dotting the board that would be perfect running mates with Porzingis. So, forget the playoffs. Be smart, Knicks. Derrick Rose is ready to take 25 shots-a-game. Hornacek's defense could give up 110 points-a-night. They're warming the tanks up in Latvia. Let's make this happen.So the Knicks, not the Sixers have nailed tanking. And we need more yoots. Lot's more yoots. Because KP6 want's nothing more than to lose, lose, lose. And a lineup with Noah and Porzingis are going to give up 110 points a night. Got ya.
When is this shit ever going to end? When the Sixers franchise decides to become the new NBDL team for Golden State?
This is the part i am glad you mention that everyone who wants to tank forgets about. Surrounding a young player with veterans who know how to win and giving yourself a chance to play in meaningful games (playoffs and/or late-season games to compete for playoffs) is the most important thing for a young player who you want to give the keys to the franchise. Not tank, tank, and more tank for a chance at some decent players along the same career timeline. You can be resourceful to add supporting players, draft well in the middle of the first round, and leave no stone unturned. Plus, trying to win is a lot more fun than trying to lose, at least for true fans. Good franchises (like the Spurs) do not need to tank to find good players in the draft, in free agency, and even those undrafted or overseas.
It's a fact that no one, outside of our favorite civil court suit defendant, is picking the Knicks to be instant contenders.
It's a fact that actual NBA analysts, who may just may more know more about the NBA than Vegas mathematicians, like JVG, Greg Anthony are picking the Knicks to make the playoffs.
It's a fact than anyone with anything approaching even a miniscule level of NBA IQ realizes that the Knicks back court and bench are vastly improved, younger, and not (at least in the case of the bench) a various collection of NBDL flotsam.
It's a fact that Phil invested a large sum to sign Noah, and this would not be consistent with the Hinkie model of franchise destruction.
It's a fact that we've been listening to the greatness of the tanking model regarding Philly for years, ever since they drafted MCW and then traded him away. It's a fact you can count their wins since without a calculator.
It's my opinion that what everyone was pining for during the early off-season, vastly improving the backcourt, has occurred. And without losing any further draft picks, either.But please, keep ignoring the words No Trade Clause, and keep plying the
1) "it's best for my personal pariah who's now outlived all the hoops I wanted him to jump through, to go somewhere else for his own good. Really, I want Melo to have a chip"
2) I love KP so much it makes my gonads shrivel up and die to think he might have some level of success with my personal pariah.
3) I really only want to watch AAU basketball, because I firmly believe that, despite all the evidence to the contrary, veterans are not good for sheehit.It never gets old, and it's great to know the bastions of negativity will always be there, serving a greater purpose for those of us who just love the Knicks more than our own fuhucking stupid opinions and idiotic fanboy versions of BB IQ, having never played, coached or even been a clerk in an NBA office.
Rock on, haters!
Makes me laugh! Have these guys even read anything KP has been saying. HE'S ECSTATIC to be playing with good players!!! I mean he isn't hoping to spend the next few years struggling to get wins and praying we strike gold again in the draft. If you have no choice but to lose because your team stinks and you have no way to improve, then you are fine with looking to the draft. The Knicks weren't in that situation. They already had Melo and he wasn't going anywhere, so the best thing to do is to improve the team around KP and help him to develop even faster.Because you don't get that there can possible another side to you view as a fan. If you read most outsiders takes + vegas predictions you will see that there are many issues factored into their predictions that you seem to be pushing aside. They don't brush by things like injury risks just like insurance underwriters don't ignore these things, and just like actuaries etc ... The silly statement of "but any team can have injuries" is beyond stupid and completely missing the boat. There are many question marks here for a reason. Can they beat the odds? Of course they can ANYBODY CAN BEAT ANY ODDS.
On the flip side, JVG picked the knicks to win close to fifty games and raved about Phil Jackson (though dissed the triangle) so that is interesting, but JVG is funny like that, especially with Phil. He is always playing poker when he talks about the knicks.
I am picking them to beat the vegas predictions though I am an optimistic homer so my opinion is biased. I do think that the knicks will have many injuries as predicted though. Most of my optimism is Hornacek. I hope that he is not handcuffed. And, I think that Lee and Jennings were very solid pickups. I don't think Rose will be here more than this season and I definitely don't think the Noah (who I adore) is gonna live up to his contract. I think that Melo will be a solid this year but continue with nagging injuries that will mess with his jump shot. KP can go either way ... He can breakout or have a sophomore slump. He is certainly no where near a star yet and his physique scares the hell out of me since guys that size are at a higher risk to injury. I really hope that Hornacek builds his game in a way that will limit his risk. These 3 point shot fakes and drives are suicide plays that can really get him hurt. I want him more as a spot up deep shooter or down low (depending on matchups) but I do NOT want him driving in traffic!
The knicks need to beat the odds but lets not be surprised that there are many questions around this team and that there is significant risk. Vegas has no interest in ragging on the knicks.
Its not half empty and its not half full. Its risk factors that are there. You don't even see that you always have a bias, and that is fine just recognize it. Again, vegas does not rag on the knicks and fans who have their own minds and beliefs are not ragging. "its so un american", sound familiar?
People who like every move are obviously just koolaid drinkers who just want to drink and people who hate every move are just silly haters with grudges.
Some like some moves and dislike others. Very few of these though and getting fewer. Yellow, Bonn, GB, Guns, Knickcity, crzydmps (when he had a good night sleep), Ned, Dk (though is a bit of a hater :-) ), and some others but wish there were more guys with open minds here who can think for themselves.
And its amazing how far this mentality goes which shocked the hell out of me in the Rose thread, which of course was brushed aside because its not pure knicks love.
I know that my methods of judgement are not exactly the same as yours but that doesn't mean I or anyone else doesn't have an open mind. IN FACT it is we who are NOT just buying the vegas or pro analysts line that are displaying an open mind on what the Knicks could be this year. We're reading the stat driven predictions and we are taking into account other factors that they are not.
this is pretty funny :-)
vegas does not have a bias and you do (to the umpth degree), funny comparison. To make an unbiased prediction one needs to be critical of everything in an unbiased way.
Basketball is played by HUMANS and not robots. Using numbers is cold and unemotional but not infallible because... humans! There's more to it than just numbers! Numbers suggest that it was highly unlikely that the Cavs should've come back and beat the Warriors! The unmeasurable factor kicked in.
you just said pretty much nothing ... at least I think you did.
Do you think that Vegas odds makers had any meetings around this or did they just run a formula?
Again, the fact that you are proving that these systems are flawed due to clevelands come back just means that you don't get and will never get how this works. To you its all black and white. See? They did not predict the outcome ... ha!!
Its about probabilities. If you needed a card for your flush draw and you had one card coming, you should never bet unless you are getting pot odds. So the dummy poker player pays to try to hit his flush and he got paid 2 : 1 instead of 4 : 1. Now he writes a book stating that all you really need is 2 : 1 to make the call because it worked for him. You can go buy that book
I understand that the odds makers are dealing with probability, but NBA Teams are not a deck of cards. The odds makers are pretty great at what they do, but i'm not buying their take on this team cuz I don't believe their methodology can account for the intangible factors with this Knicks roster including motivations for some of the key players on this team.You can chose to believe in the odds makers, even tho if i'm not mistaken, you yourself don't believe the Knicks will only win 35 or 38 games. it seems you want to argue with me purely on principle, which is fine, but I believe that you wouldn't bet that this team ends up with only 35 or 38 wins. I bet that like me you think this team will most likely be better than that or am I wrong and you do believe the Knicks will end up with only 35 or 38 wins as predicted?
and that is because we are knicks fans. I am assuming that average level headed knick fans would still predict a few more wins than non knick fans.
mreinman wrote:i have no problem with having great optimism but its also important to keep it real as well. Im excited for the season but im not ready to say we are contenders yetStarksEwing1 wrote:nixluva wrote:i think on average most fans on here predict in the low 40s which is probably fair given the injury concerns of a few playersmreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:CrushAlot wrote:mreinman wrote:Just wondering what would ever make you think that I don't read and listen to everything I can get my hands on about the Knicks? I know there is another side and I know the math behind it. But I don't see the glass half empty approach from fans before the season even starts.CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:Well said. I get cautious optimism. But I think there is a lot to get excited about. I really like the young guys that the Knicks brought in. I think NDour, and Willy have a shot at being good rotation level pros. I also think Noah was a great addition. Rose's trainer and his teammates have been extremely positive about how he is doing. I guess I don't get pushing that all aside to rag on the team I root for.jrodmc wrote:Knixkik wrote:jrodmc wrote:This sounds amazingly alot like a lovechild rant from Hinkie/ChuckyBooBoo:This is why Knicks fans should be rooting for a slow start that turns into a midseason Melo trade and three months of losing. Somehow, this team already nailed the hardest part of tanking. Now they just need more help, and preferably help that's under the age of 30. Even if you're not sure about the superstars in this draft—Giles could be elite if healthy, Fultz looks incredible— there are potential All-Stars dotting the board that would be perfect running mates with Porzingis. So, forget the playoffs. Be smart, Knicks. Derrick Rose is ready to take 25 shots-a-game. Hornacek's defense could give up 110 points-a-night. They're warming the tanks up in Latvia. Let's make this happen.So the Knicks, not the Sixers have nailed tanking. And we need more yoots. Lot's more yoots. Because KP6 want's nothing more than to lose, lose, lose. And a lineup with Noah and Porzingis are going to give up 110 points a night. Got ya.
When is this shit ever going to end? When the Sixers franchise decides to become the new NBDL team for Golden State?
This is the part i am glad you mention that everyone who wants to tank forgets about. Surrounding a young player with veterans who know how to win and giving yourself a chance to play in meaningful games (playoffs and/or late-season games to compete for playoffs) is the most important thing for a young player who you want to give the keys to the franchise. Not tank, tank, and more tank for a chance at some decent players along the same career timeline. You can be resourceful to add supporting players, draft well in the middle of the first round, and leave no stone unturned. Plus, trying to win is a lot more fun than trying to lose, at least for true fans. Good franchises (like the Spurs) do not need to tank to find good players in the draft, in free agency, and even those undrafted or overseas.
It's a fact that no one, outside of our favorite civil court suit defendant, is picking the Knicks to be instant contenders.
It's a fact that actual NBA analysts, who may just may more know more about the NBA than Vegas mathematicians, like JVG, Greg Anthony are picking the Knicks to make the playoffs.
It's a fact than anyone with anything approaching even a miniscule level of NBA IQ realizes that the Knicks back court and bench are vastly improved, younger, and not (at least in the case of the bench) a various collection of NBDL flotsam.
It's a fact that Phil invested a large sum to sign Noah, and this would not be consistent with the Hinkie model of franchise destruction.
It's a fact that we've been listening to the greatness of the tanking model regarding Philly for years, ever since they drafted MCW and then traded him away. It's a fact you can count their wins since without a calculator.
It's my opinion that what everyone was pining for during the early off-season, vastly improving the backcourt, has occurred. And without losing any further draft picks, either.But please, keep ignoring the words No Trade Clause, and keep plying the
1) "it's best for my personal pariah who's now outlived all the hoops I wanted him to jump through, to go somewhere else for his own good. Really, I want Melo to have a chip"
2) I love KP so much it makes my gonads shrivel up and die to think he might have some level of success with my personal pariah.
3) I really only want to watch AAU basketball, because I firmly believe that, despite all the evidence to the contrary, veterans are not good for sheehit.It never gets old, and it's great to know the bastions of negativity will always be there, serving a greater purpose for those of us who just love the Knicks more than our own fuhucking stupid opinions and idiotic fanboy versions of BB IQ, having never played, coached or even been a clerk in an NBA office.
Rock on, haters!
Makes me laugh! Have these guys even read anything KP has been saying. HE'S ECSTATIC to be playing with good players!!! I mean he isn't hoping to spend the next few years struggling to get wins and praying we strike gold again in the draft. If you have no choice but to lose because your team stinks and you have no way to improve, then you are fine with looking to the draft. The Knicks weren't in that situation. They already had Melo and he wasn't going anywhere, so the best thing to do is to improve the team around KP and help him to develop even faster.Because you don't get that there can possible another side to you view as a fan. If you read most outsiders takes + vegas predictions you will see that there are many issues factored into their predictions that you seem to be pushing aside. They don't brush by things like injury risks just like insurance underwriters don't ignore these things, and just like actuaries etc ... The silly statement of "but any team can have injuries" is beyond stupid and completely missing the boat. There are many question marks here for a reason. Can they beat the odds? Of course they can ANYBODY CAN BEAT ANY ODDS.
On the flip side, JVG picked the knicks to win close to fifty games and raved about Phil Jackson (though dissed the triangle) so that is interesting, but JVG is funny like that, especially with Phil. He is always playing poker when he talks about the knicks.
I am picking them to beat the vegas predictions though I am an optimistic homer so my opinion is biased. I do think that the knicks will have many injuries as predicted though. Most of my optimism is Hornacek. I hope that he is not handcuffed. And, I think that Lee and Jennings were very solid pickups. I don't think Rose will be here more than this season and I definitely don't think the Noah (who I adore) is gonna live up to his contract. I think that Melo will be a solid this year but continue with nagging injuries that will mess with his jump shot. KP can go either way ... He can breakout or have a sophomore slump. He is certainly no where near a star yet and his physique scares the hell out of me since guys that size are at a higher risk to injury. I really hope that Hornacek builds his game in a way that will limit his risk. These 3 point shot fakes and drives are suicide plays that can really get him hurt. I want him more as a spot up deep shooter or down low (depending on matchups) but I do NOT want him driving in traffic!
The knicks need to beat the odds but lets not be surprised that there are many questions around this team and that there is significant risk. Vegas has no interest in ragging on the knicks.
Its not half empty and its not half full. Its risk factors that are there. You don't even see that you always have a bias, and that is fine just recognize it. Again, vegas does not rag on the knicks and fans who have their own minds and beliefs are not ragging. "its so un american", sound familiar?
People who like every move are obviously just koolaid drinkers who just want to drink and people who hate every move are just silly haters with grudges.
Some like some moves and dislike others. Very few of these though and getting fewer. Yellow, Bonn, GB, Guns, Knickcity, crzydmps (when he had a good night sleep), Ned, Dk (though is a bit of a hater :-) ), and some others but wish there were more guys with open minds here who can think for themselves.
And its amazing how far this mentality goes which shocked the hell out of me in the Rose thread, which of course was brushed aside because its not pure knicks love.
I know that my methods of judgement are not exactly the same as yours but that doesn't mean I or anyone else doesn't have an open mind. IN FACT it is we who are NOT just buying the vegas or pro analysts line that are displaying an open mind on what the Knicks could be this year. We're reading the stat driven predictions and we are taking into account other factors that they are not.
this is pretty funny :-)
vegas does not have a bias and you do (to the umpth degree), funny comparison. To make an unbiased prediction one needs to be critical of everything in an unbiased way.
Basketball is played by HUMANS and not robots. Using numbers is cold and unemotional but not infallible because... humans! There's more to it than just numbers! Numbers suggest that it was highly unlikely that the Cavs should've come back and beat the Warriors! The unmeasurable factor kicked in.
you just said pretty much nothing ... at least I think you did.
Do you think that Vegas odds makers had any meetings around this or did they just run a formula?
Again, the fact that you are proving that these systems are flawed due to clevelands come back just means that you don't get and will never get how this works. To you its all black and white. See? They did not predict the outcome ... ha!!
Its about probabilities. If you needed a card for your flush draw and you had one card coming, you should never bet unless you are getting pot odds. So the dummy poker player pays to try to hit his flush and he got paid 2 : 1 instead of 4 : 1. Now he writes a book stating that all you really need is 2 : 1 to make the call because it worked for him. You can go buy that book
I understand that the odds makers are dealing with probability, but NBA Teams are not a deck of cards. The odds makers are pretty great at what they do, but i'm not buying their take on this team cuz I don't believe their methodology can account for the intangible factors with this Knicks roster including motivations for some of the key players on this team.You can chose to believe in the odds makers, even tho if i'm not mistaken, you yourself don't believe the Knicks will only win 35 or 38 games. it seems you want to argue with me purely on principle, which is fine, but I believe that you wouldn't bet that this team ends up with only 35 or 38 wins. I bet that like me you think this team will most likely be better than that or am I wrong and you do believe the Knicks will end up with only 35 or 38 wins as predicted?
and that is because we are knicks fans. I am assuming that average level headed knick fans would still predict a few more wins than non knick fans.