Knicks · Nate Duncan Knicks Outlook podcast (2 hrs) ...DONT READ if you plan to listen (page 1)

every year Nate Duncan adds guests to preview each team (about 2 hrs long). so in summary:
- this year he featured Jason Concepcion and Jared Dubin (funny duo)
- Rose trade was pretty good BUT adding Noah marginalizes KP
- absolutely NO guard depth - concerning since rose and Jennings had injuries
- Noah will be useless in yrs 3 and 4 - an "Amnesty" waiting to happen
- Lee is underrated and probably their best signing
- they all expect coach Hornecek to run the triangle ALOT.
- Hornecek style (fast pace and running) doesn't fit with Melo (likes it slow)
- no upside to Rose trade - even if he succeeds this yr, do you want to resign him?
- is Lance for real - after one solid breakout yr? they're relying on him for wing depth
- they all think Phil will return to LA after this season
- they don't expect ANYTHING from willie g, holiday, mudzingkas
- strengths = interior defense and rebounding
- weaknesses = perimeter defense (improved from last yr but still bad), passing (melo and rose)
- they (like me) also think they should've kept Gallo - for the triangle experience
- Lance Thomas - might be one of the most important players on this team (defense)
- back up center? Noah will likely miss time. Plumlee, Willie G and Quinn?
- best case scenario (45 wins) = no injuries, less triangle more stretch 5 for KP, 80% rose, holiday can actually play, KP improves as their 1st or 2nd option
- worst case scenario (30 wins) = besides outlier injury misses: lance regresses, depth sucks
- Their prediction 35-40 wins = some where in between best and worse case scenarios

ENJOY

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/duncdon

callmened wrote:every year Nate Duncan adds guests to preview each team (about 2 hrs long). so in summary:
- this year he featured Jason Concepcion and Jared Dubin (funny duo)
- Rose trade was pretty good BUT adding Noah marginalizes KP
- absolutely NO guard depth - concerning since rose and Jennings had injuries
- Noah will be useless in yrs 3 and 4 - an "Amnesty" waiting to happen
- Lee is underrated and probably their best signing
- they all expect coach Hornecek to run the triangle ALOT.
- Hornecek style (fast pace and running) doesn't fit with Melo (likes it slow)
- no upside to Rose trade - even if he succeeds this yr, do you want to resign him?
- is Lance for real - after one solid breakout yr? they're relying on him for wing depth
- they all think Phil will return to LA after this season
- they don't expect ANYTHING from willie g, holiday, mudzingkas
- strengths = interior defense and rebounding
- weaknesses = perimeter defense (improved from last yr but still bad), passing (melo and rose)
- they (like me) also think they should've kept Gallo - for the triangle experience
- Lance Thomas - might be one of the most important players on this team (defense)
- back up center? Noah will likely miss time. Plumlee, Willie G and Quinn?
- best case scenario (45 wins) = no injuries, less triangle more stretch 5 for KP, 80% rose, holiday can actually play, KP improves as their 1st or 2nd option
- worst case scenario (30 wins) = besides outlier injury misses: lance regresses, depth sucks
- Their prediction 35-40 wins = some where in between best and worse case scenarios

These are mostly reasonable points.

But the question is: how many better alternatives were available (?)

I say the only obvious one is that Derek Williams could and should have been re-signed . . .

when you pay noah 18 mill that ate up space to buy some depth.
I would've preferred to have KP start at the 5 and use that noah money for depth
I would've resigned gallo for cheap
of course this is all easy to say (I would've I would've) but the bottom line is (good) free agents have to WANT to play here. seems like were left with the washed up ones past their prime.

ideally, I would've centered this team around KP (pun intended) and phase melo out. what ever we win we win...but one objective would've been to get a franchise PG in next yrs draft.

but its not up to me and phil wants to WIN NOW for melo (shrugs shoulders)

at least the garden should be more exciting this yr.

Fooking haters!

callmened wrote:when you pay noah 18 mill that ate up space to buy some depth.
I would've preferred to have KP start at the 5 and use that noah money for depth
I would've resigned gallo for cheap
of course this is all easy to say (I would've I would've) but the bottom line is (good) free agents have to WANT to play here. seems like were left with the washed up ones past their prime.

ideally, I would've centered this team around KP (pun intended) and phase melo out. what ever we win we win...but one objective would've been to get a franchise PG in next yrs draft.

but its not up to me and phil wants to WIN NOW for melo (shrugs shoulders)

at least the garden should be more exciting this yr.

I have my reservations on Noah getting a 4 year contract, but one aspect people don't seem to consider is that Noah led to the Lee signing. Listen to Lee in the introductory press conference. I don't think he signs without Noah's recruitment.

I'm optimistic for this year, but it's not an all-or-bust season. We have all of our picks moving forward and a franchise talent entering year 2. If things go south, I think we're still in good shape.

so they predict about last year's win totals... so they concede Lee is a good signing and helps. So that means what? That losing Lopez negates that? That Rose has no great impact than Jose? Noah negates KP's impact? Did they watch KP at center last year... at all? Essentially they are saying that Rose/Noah/Lee/Jennings doesn't improve the Knicks from last year's Jose/Lopez/AA/Galloway? Kind of hard to get my head around that one but OK. Good work

Also people dont remember that last year we loose 10 games with 3 or less point diff, if this year we win those games we are in playoffs

fishmike wrote:so they predict about last year's win totals... so they concede Lee is a good signing and helps. So that means what? That losing Lopez negates that? That Rose has no great impact than Jose? Noah negates KP's impact? Did they watch KP at center last year... at all? Essentially they are saying that Rose/Noah/Lee/Jennings doesn't improve the Knicks from last year's Jose/Lopez/AA/Galloway? Kind of hard to get my head around that one but OK. Good work

theyre factoring in injuries or missed time to rose and noah

MaTT4281 wrote:

callmened wrote:when you pay noah 18 mill that ate up space to buy some depth.
I would've preferred to have KP start at the 5 and use that noah money for depth
I would've resigned gallo for cheap
of course this is all easy to say (I would've I would've) but the bottom line is (good) free agents have to WANT to play here. seems like were left with the washed up ones past their prime.

ideally, I would've centered this team around KP (pun intended) and phase melo out. what ever we win we win...but one objective would've been to get a franchise PG in next yrs draft.

but its not up to me and phil wants to WIN NOW for melo (shrugs shoulders)

at least the garden should be more exciting this yr.

I have my reservations on Noah getting a 4 year contract, but one aspect people don't seem to consider is that Noah led to the Lee signing. Listen to Lee in the introductory press conference. I don't think he signs without Noah's recruitment.

I'm optimistic for this year, but it's not an all-or-bust season. We have all of our picks moving forward and a franchise talent entering year 2. If things go south, I think we're still in good shape.

EXACTLY. After 3 years under Phil it seems like we finally have some normalcy. We have a good starting line up, we have some young players and prospects, we have some injury concerns with a couple core guys, but we also have all our picks moving forward. We have a franchise caliber prospect who just finished a very promising rookie campaign and has a nice bond with the future HOFer he starts next to at forward.

Phil's moves have no all been perfect, he's made and admitted mistakes but we are in a good place moving forward. Overall I am very happy with the job Phil has done here

Thanks for posting this. I would think that with the addition of willie g, holiday, mudzingkas, the odds would be decent that one of them would show something. I agree with a lot of it, not all. I believe our guard situation (ramifications of the Rose trade aside) is better than it was last season, dont know yet how much.

callmened wrote:

fishmike wrote:so they predict about last year's win totals... so they concede Lee is a good signing and helps. So that means what? That losing Lopez negates that? That Rose has no great impact than Jose? Noah negates KP's impact? Did they watch KP at center last year... at all? Essentially they are saying that Rose/Noah/Lee/Jennings doesn't improve the Knicks from last year's Jose/Lopez/AA/Galloway? Kind of hard to get my head around that one but OK. Good work

theyre factoring in injuries or missed time to rose and noah

That injury rationale bothers me tho. First of all you just can't know what will happen in that dept. No team can predict good health. I prefer to lower that factor in making an assessment. The Knicks medical staff has looked at Rose and Noah and if there was something that suggested they were in a really bad condition, they would've see it. Instead the reports i've read suggest they were in relatively good condition. At their ages and injury history there will always be some issues that crop up. None of these guys is going to play a full 82. Still that doesn't mean that we're gonna lose games because these guys are seriously hurt and miss a ton of games.

If anything I think having so much talent in the top of the rotation will make the game easier for everyone. No one should have to force things. Shots should come easier.

I thought the Podcast was a bit too snarky. There were good points but also they seemed to undersell much of the roster improvement which IMO makes no sense. As Fishmike said, how reasonable is it to think that there will be practically no positive impact of adding Rose, Noah, Lee and Jennings into this rotation? This top 7 rotation is SOLID AS HELL. Yet when talking about the Knicks they tend to assess each player in a vacuum. That's not how Basketball works. This is a team sport and it does matter who a player is on the floor with and how the group works together. This roster looks like it makes all kinds of sense together. Most importantly is how they all come together under Hornacek's schemes.

At this point everyone is just repeating the same thing over and over. Nothing refreshing just the same old jargon.

It's time for training camp...

callmened wrote:

fishmike wrote:so they predict about last year's win totals... so they concede Lee is a good signing and helps. So that means what? That losing Lopez negates that? That Rose has no great impact than Jose? Noah negates KP's impact? Did they watch KP at center last year... at all? Essentially they are saying that Rose/Noah/Lee/Jennings doesn't improve the Knicks from last year's Jose/Lopez/AA/Galloway? Kind of hard to get my head around that one but OK. Good work

theyre factoring in injuries or missed time to rose and noah

AA/Melo/KP/Jose/Lance... all missed games last year. Its not like we were injury free and added a bunch of damaged goods.

In any case was Eny said... same smelling poop being flung against the same walls. Time for preseason

EnySpree wrote:At this point everyone is just repeating the same thing over and over. Nothing refreshing just the same old jargon.

It's time for training camp...

yep. I agree. im bored. just thought I would share

fishmike wrote:

callmened wrote:

fishmike wrote:so they predict about last year's win totals... so they concede Lee is a good signing and helps. So that means what? That losing Lopez negates that? That Rose has no great impact than Jose? Noah negates KP's impact? Did they watch KP at center last year... at all? Essentially they are saying that Rose/Noah/Lee/Jennings doesn't improve the Knicks from last year's Jose/Lopez/AA/Galloway? Kind of hard to get my head around that one but OK. Good work

theyre factoring in injuries or missed time to rose and noah

AA/Melo/KP/Jose/Lance... all missed games last year. Its not like we were injury free and added a bunch of damaged goods.

In any case was Eny said... same smelling poop being flung against the same walls. Time for preseason

apologies for the redundancies

nixluva wrote:

callmened wrote:

fishmike wrote:so they predict about last year's win totals... so they concede Lee is a good signing and helps. So that means what? That losing Lopez negates that? That Rose has no great impact than Jose? Noah negates KP's impact? Did they watch KP at center last year... at all? Essentially they are saying that Rose/Noah/Lee/Jennings doesn't improve the Knicks from last year's Jose/Lopez/AA/Galloway? Kind of hard to get my head around that one but OK. Good work

theyre factoring in injuries or missed time to rose and noah

That injury rationale bothers me tho. First of all you just can't know what will happen in that dept. No team can predict good health. I prefer to lower that factor in making an assessment. The Knicks medical staff has looked at Rose and Noah and if there was something that suggested they were in a really bad condition, they would've see it. Instead the reports i've read suggest they were in relatively good condition. At their ages and injury history there will always be some issues that crop up. None of these guys is going to play a full 82. Still that doesn't mean that we're gonna lose games because these guys are seriously hurt and miss a ton of games.

If anything I think having so much talent in the top of the rotation will make the game easier for everyone. No one should have to force things. Shots should come easier.

I thought the Podcast was a bit too snarky. There were good points but also they seemed to undersell much of the roster improvement which IMO makes no sense. As Fishmike said, how reasonable is it to think that there will be practically no positive impact of adding Rose, Noah, Lee and Jennings into this rotation? This top 7 rotation is SOLID AS HELL. Yet when talking about the Knicks they tend to assess each player in a vacuum. That's not how Basketball works. This is a team sport and it does matter who a player is on the floor with and how the group works together. This roster looks like it makes all kinds of sense together. Most importantly is how they all come together under Hornacek's schemes.

I think the roster and team has improved. 32 wins to about 42 wins in my opinion. that's a 10% increase. but im not expecting a championship any time soon

I love the fact that people are questioning Rose, Noah, and Jennings. I think all of these guys will be extra motivated to prove the critics wrong.

Then watch how many of these hacks claim they knew the Knicks would be much improved.

callmened wrote:

fishmike wrote:

callmened wrote:

fishmike wrote:so they predict about last year's win totals... so they concede Lee is a good signing and helps. So that means what? That losing Lopez negates that? That Rose has no great impact than Jose? Noah negates KP's impact? Did they watch KP at center last year... at all? Essentially they are saying that Rose/Noah/Lee/Jennings doesn't improve the Knicks from last year's Jose/Lopez/AA/Galloway? Kind of hard to get my head around that one but OK. Good work

theyre factoring in injuries or missed time to rose and noah

AA/Melo/KP/Jose/Lance... all missed games last year. Its not like we were injury free and added a bunch of damaged goods.

In any case was Eny said... same smelling poop being flung against the same walls. Time for preseason

apologies for the redundancies

not! Actually thanks for listening and breaking it down for us. Its not YOUR fault someone is saying the same as everyone else

fishmike wrote:so they predict about last year's win totals... so they concede Lee is a good signing and helps. So that means what? That losing Lopez negates that? That Rose has no great impact than Jose? Noah negates KP's impact? Did they watch KP at center last year... at all? Essentially they are saying that Rose/Noah/Lee/Jennings doesn't improve the Knicks from last year's Jose/Lopez/AA/Galloway? Kind of hard to get my head around that one but OK. Good work

yeah im with on this Fish, Thess guy's have said anything thats wasn't discuss on these boards in great depth. When westbrook, KD, Steph curry, had back to back inujury riddle season, why no one wrote them off as injury plagued.

Westbrook has just as much chance of being injured this season as rose, kyrie, walker, bledsoe, or any pg for the matter.

There was no other way to up grade the roster without sacrificing.

Galloway and DWILL have never played on a winning team in the NBA, and although they both have talent, they play losing basketball, neither one is clutch or consistent, so WTF..

For some reason I forgot they won 32 last year and not 37. Cobwebs... So at least they list an improvement in the win total.

Every year predictions are way off. Knicks are a hard team to predict, and most tend to err on the side of losing. I like the roster, especially considering what we started with a few years ago.

fishmike wrote:For some reason I forgot they won 32 last year and not 37. Cobwebs... So at least they list an improvement in the win total.

Every year predictions are way off. Knicks are a hard team to predict, and most tend to err on the side of losing. I like the roster, especially considering what we started with a few years ago.

Yeah the progression in talent is very clear IMO. From year one to year two there was some progress and in year three I think this roster is much improved. Not to mention the little talked about change at head coach. Hornacek is a huge change for this team and he should be able to work with the roster that Phil has given him.

Hornacek likes to play fast and aggressive and these players are at their best playing that way. Hornacek has had 3pt shooting bigs before and was able to get a lot out of them. I suspect he'll have a lot of stuff he can do with KP.

Lee is a better fit in that he doesn't need the all in order to be effective. Afflalo had to have the ball and even tho he could also catch and shoot, he spent too much time posting up and Lee is the complete opposite of that. PLUS Lee defends and finishes in transition at a high rate.

I think Jennings being on the team is a HUGE plus. He brings that extra punch off the bench. For one he's another capable PG and he can help maintain a high level of play. There should be no drop off as we've seen in the past.

I'm hoping that Holiday can show something with a consistent role, similar to how Lance Thomas was able to show his ability when he got to play a consistent role. Holiday is 6-6 with a 7-1 wingspan and he can defend and shoot the 3 well enough. As a role player I think he can give this team something in Hornacek's schemes. Hornacek was able to get a TON out of Gerald Green and maybe he can have the same success with Holiday.