dk7th wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Here we go again with you. Making ridiculous statements in order to pad your unqualified opinion of a player. We get it, you hate Rose. You came out and said it endless times on trial threads. Said it after every turnover, missed shot, missed pre season game. We get it. Here is your chance to give up the trolling. Would you not agree he is top 5 fastest PG in league? Would you not agree it is the first time he has been healthy going into a season in over three years? Is he not the best Guard we have had in many many years? When was the last time you saw a knick guard get easy transition baskets? All things a real Knick fan would be happy about? Of course he needs to improve and get accustomed to his teammates. But that will take more than one game. Something I am sure your not willing to give him. As it would prove your original prediction of him wrong.
the best point guards we had were jeremy lin and jason kidd. i don't like the friends he has, i don't like his choice in women or his treatment of them, and i don't like his sordid behavior. all true. as to his game, yeah i don't like his game either. if i did, i might be able to see past his off-court stuff. he doesn't defend at all, he takes too many shots. this has always been his game and where he remains flawed. so i don't see much upside and it is tiresome to hear how much his praises are sung. most advanced statistical models place him as basically no better than a bench player in terms of effectiveness. his drpm underscores this and his overall rpm remains below the league average. and this is with the bulls allowing rose to be rose.
i took a quick glance at this article when i googled rose vorp-- it is pretty sobering stuff:
http://perimeterplayers.com/2016/10/derr...
because it is the ultimate team game, the issue will remain: does rose play "alongside" others, or "with" others or "for" others?
Lin our best point guard? You just lost all credibility. But at least your motive for Melo and Rose hate is clear. Will admit Lin was the best 15 minutes of fame in NY Knick history. Had a great run for about 15 games. Which I guess to an advanced Stat/Basketball guy like you, equates to best ever? Makes sense, as you ruled on Rose after just one game. But your probably right, what do the Rockets, Lakers, Hornets know anyway. Lin's narrow court vision, suspect defense and horrible outside shooting is probably just all made up. He is just another low to mid level role player that can be replaced. No Derrick Rose. If he stays healthy, Rose will show his true ability.
HofstraBBall wrote:dk7th wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Here we go again with you. Making ridiculous statements in order to pad your unqualified opinion of a player. We get it, you hate Rose. You came out and said it endless times on trial threads. Said it after every turnover, missed shot, missed pre season game. We get it. Here is your chance to give up the trolling. Would you not agree he is top 5 fastest PG in league? Would you not agree it is the first time he has been healthy going into a season in over three years? Is he not the best Guard we have had in many many years? When was the last time you saw a knick guard get easy transition baskets? All things a real Knick fan would be happy about? Of course he needs to improve and get accustomed to his teammates. But that will take more than one game. Something I am sure your not willing to give him. As it would prove your original prediction of him wrong.
the best point guards we had were jeremy lin and jason kidd. i don't like the friends he has, i don't like his choice in women or his treatment of them, and i don't like his sordid behavior. all true. as to his game, yeah i don't like his game either. if i did, i might be able to see past his off-court stuff. he doesn't defend at all, he takes too many shots. this has always been his game and where he remains flawed. so i don't see much upside and it is tiresome to hear how much his praises are sung. most advanced statistical models place him as basically no better than a bench player in terms of effectiveness. his drpm underscores this and his overall rpm remains below the league average. and this is with the bulls allowing rose to be rose.
i took a quick glance at this article when i googled rose vorp-- it is pretty sobering stuff:
http://perimeterplayers.com/2016/10/derr...
because it is the ultimate team game, the issue will remain: does rose play "alongside" others, or "with" others or "for" others?
Lin our best point guard? You just lost all credibility. But at least your motive for Melo and Rose hate is clear. Will admit Lin was the best 15 minutes of fame in NY Knick history. Had a great run for about 15 games. Which I guess to an advanced Stat/Basketball guy like you, equates to best ever? Makes sense, as you ruled on Rose after just one game. But your probably right, what do the Rockets, Lakers, Hornets know anyway. Lin's narrow court vision, suspect defense and horrible outside shooting is probably just all made up. He is just another low to mid level role player that can be replaced. No Derrick Rose. If he stays healthy, Rose will show his true ability.
lin best knick point guard while a knick. running d'antoni's offense he thrived. he finishes at the rim more effectively than rose does. look at the stats. kidd was fantastic until he broke down-- the most important player the knicks had that season. 37 wins the next season without him proved how important he was.
you're creating an argument where there isn't one. if rose does well i will praise him. if he does poorly i will say so and point out why. as of right now i see him as a fool's gold player. he impresses many with his flashiness but he is closer to a zero-sum or negative-sum player.
dk7th wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:dk7th wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Here we go again with you. Making ridiculous statements in order to pad your unqualified opinion of a player. We get it, you hate Rose. You came out and said it endless times on trial threads. Said it after every turnover, missed shot, missed pre season game. We get it. Here is your chance to give up the trolling. Would you not agree he is top 5 fastest PG in league? Would you not agree it is the first time he has been healthy going into a season in over three years? Is he not the best Guard we have had in many many years? When was the last time you saw a knick guard get easy transition baskets? All things a real Knick fan would be happy about? Of course he needs to improve and get accustomed to his teammates. But that will take more than one game. Something I am sure your not willing to give him. As it would prove your original prediction of him wrong.
the best point guards we had were jeremy lin and jason kidd. i don't like the friends he has, i don't like his choice in women or his treatment of them, and i don't like his sordid behavior. all true. as to his game, yeah i don't like his game either. if i did, i might be able to see past his off-court stuff. he doesn't defend at all, he takes too many shots. this has always been his game and where he remains flawed. so i don't see much upside and it is tiresome to hear how much his praises are sung. most advanced statistical models place him as basically no better than a bench player in terms of effectiveness. his drpm underscores this and his overall rpm remains below the league average. and this is with the bulls allowing rose to be rose.
i took a quick glance at this article when i googled rose vorp-- it is pretty sobering stuff:
http://perimeterplayers.com/2016/10/derr...
because it is the ultimate team game, the issue will remain: does rose play "alongside" others, or "with" others or "for" others?
Lin our best point guard? You just lost all credibility. But at least your motive for Melo and Rose hate is clear. Will admit Lin was the best 15 minutes of fame in NY Knick history. Had a great run for about 15 games. Which I guess to an advanced Stat/Basketball guy like you, equates to best ever? Makes sense, as you ruled on Rose after just one game. But your probably right, what do the Rockets, Lakers, Hornets know anyway. Lin's narrow court vision, suspect defense and horrible outside shooting is probably just all made up. He is just another low to mid level role player that can be replaced. No Derrick Rose. If he stays healthy, Rose will show his true ability.
lin best knick point guard while a knick. running d'antoni's offense he thrived. he finishes at the rim more effectively than rose does. look at the stats. kidd was fantastic until he broke down-- the most important player the knicks had that season. 37 wins the next season without him proved how important he was.
you're creating an argument where there isn't one. if rose does well i will praise him. if he does poorly i will say so and point out why. as of right now i see him as a fool's gold player. he impresses many with his flashiness but he is closer to a zero-sum or negative-sum player.
Actually Raymond Felton (part 1) had a stretch over the same number of games that was better than Lin's 15 minutes of fame if anyone bothered to objectively look at it. Felton actually had better stats and won more games during his "Linsanity-like" stretch. Of course, he wasn't the made for hollywood rags to riches story that Linsanity was so he never got the pub Lin got.
Linsanity was off the chain fun and I loved every minute of it. But the best decision the Knicks ever made was not giving him the money Houston gave him. Also D'antoni made a lot of point guards look better than they really were.
dk7th wrote:Welpee wrote:Now, if Rose and Jennings play great the next five or six game will there be a mea culpa? Nope. What will happen is a doubling down to prove he's still right by referencing obscure advance stats to prove we're not really witnessing what we're seeing. See, folks like this would rather be right and the Knicks lose than admit error and enjoy the Knicks success. "Fans" like this kill me.
if that ever happens you will find me to be intellectually honest and acknowledge it. i have no ulterior motive when i critique players. i have criticized carmelo mercilessly as a player and a person when he has played or behaved badly, and i have praised him and expressed admiration when he has played well and behaved well.i don't like playing games. that's for wannabes and neverbeens.
...tapping my fingers on the table patiently waiting.
Welpee wrote:dk7th wrote:Welpee wrote:Now, if Rose and Jennings play great the next five or six game will there be a mea culpa? Nope. What will happen is a doubling down to prove he's still right by referencing obscure advance stats to prove we're not really witnessing what we're seeing. See, folks like this would rather be right and the Knicks lose than admit error and enjoy the Knicks success. "Fans" like this kill me.
if that ever happens you will find me to be intellectually honest and acknowledge it. i have no ulterior motive when i critique players. i have criticized carmelo mercilessly as a player and a person when he has played or behaved badly, and i have praised him and expressed admiration when he has played well and behaved well.i don't like playing games. that's for wannabes and neverbeens.
...tapping my fingers on the table patiently waiting.
Thats a wannabe mea culpa and will be a neverbeens
Sadly I think DK has taken his brilliance elsewhere.
fishmike wrote:Welpee wrote:dk7th wrote:Welpee wrote:Now, if Rose and Jennings play great the next five or six game will there be a mea culpa? Nope. What will happen is a doubling down to prove he's still right by referencing obscure advance stats to prove we're not really witnessing what we're seeing. See, folks like this would rather be right and the Knicks lose than admit error and enjoy the Knicks success. "Fans" like this kill me.
if that ever happens you will find me to be intellectually honest and acknowledge it. i have no ulterior motive when i critique players. i have criticized carmelo mercilessly as a player and a person when he has played or behaved badly, and i have praised him and expressed admiration when he has played well and behaved well.i don't like playing games. that's for wannabes and neverbeens.
...tapping my fingers on the table patiently waiting.
Thats a wannabe mea culpa and will be a neverbeens Sadly I think DK has taken his brilliance elsewhere.
All the winning must have driven him off
smackeddog wrote:fishmike wrote:Welpee wrote:dk7th wrote:Welpee wrote:Now, if Rose and Jennings play great the next five or six game will there be a mea culpa? Nope. What will happen is a doubling down to prove he's still right by referencing obscure advance stats to prove we're not really witnessing what we're seeing. See, folks like this would rather be right and the Knicks lose than admit error and enjoy the Knicks success. "Fans" like this kill me.
if that ever happens you will find me to be intellectually honest and acknowledge it. i have no ulterior motive when i critique players. i have criticized carmelo mercilessly as a player and a person when he has played or behaved badly, and i have praised him and expressed admiration when he has played well and behaved well.i don't like playing games. that's for wannabes and neverbeens.
...tapping my fingers on the table patiently waiting.
Thats a wannabe mea culpa and will be a neverbeens Sadly I think DK has taken his brilliance elsewhere.
All the winning must have driven him off
Yeah, nothing turns a Knicks "fan" off more than winning. I assume he'll reappear when we hit our next rough stretch.
Welpee wrote:smackeddog wrote:fishmike wrote:Welpee wrote:dk7th wrote:Welpee wrote:Now, if Rose and Jennings play great the next five or six game will there be a mea culpa? Nope. What will happen is a doubling down to prove he's still right by referencing obscure advance stats to prove we're not really witnessing what we're seeing. See, folks like this would rather be right and the Knicks lose than admit error and enjoy the Knicks success. "Fans" like this kill me.
if that ever happens you will find me to be intellectually honest and acknowledge it. i have no ulterior motive when i critique players. i have criticized carmelo mercilessly as a player and a person when he has played or behaved badly, and i have praised him and expressed admiration when he has played well and behaved well.i don't like playing games. that's for wannabes and neverbeens.
...tapping my fingers on the table patiently waiting.
Thats a wannabe mea culpa and will be a neverbeens Sadly I think DK has taken his brilliance elsewhere.
All the winning must have driven him off
Yeah, nothing turns a Knicks "fan" off more than winning. I assume he'll reappear when we hit our next rough stretch.
He pushed the envelope a bit. He might have been told to leave for awhile.
All I know is that despite all the expert commentary to the contrary, Rose and BJ are helping this team win games. As many of us have said, a player doesn't have to be a Metrics Champion to help your team win. These guards have flaws but they also have some great strengths and that's the part that many doubters tended to overlook.
nixluva wrote:All I know is that despite all the expert commentary to the contrary, Rose and BJ are helping this team win games. As many of us have said, a player doesn't have to be a Metrics Champion to help your team win. These guards have flaws but they also have some great strengths and that's the part that many doubters tended to overlook.
The criticism and condemning of Rose before he set foot on the court and before the information concerning his legal matters came to light was ridiculous. I don't miss reading that stuff.
CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:All I know is that despite all the expert commentary to the contrary, Rose and BJ are helping this team win games. As many of us have said, a player doesn't have to be a Metrics Champion to help your team win. These guards have flaws but they also have some great strengths and that's the part that many doubters tended to overlook.
The criticism and condemning of Rose before he set foot on the court and before the information concerning his legal matters came to light was ridiculous. I don't miss reading that stuff.
I believe the hate for Rose was deeper than basketball.....And I said that to DK during the trial. So far both PG's are playing as I expected. Everything was and still is based on health. But Rose and BJ came here motivated, so I'm not surprised at their play.
Hornaceck ran 2 point guards in Phoenix with success. Rose & Jennings together with Lee or Holiday at the 3, Melo at 4, KP at the 5 can be a dominating line-up.
TLover wrote:Hornaceck ran 2 point guards in Phoenix with success. Rose & Jennings together with Lee or Holiday at the 3, Melo at 4, KP at the 5 can be a dominating line-up.
At least Phil is not stuffing triangle down Hornacek's throat. Even our own triangle-screen-grab guru nix is posting that we need to play more pnr and 4 out. I remember when that was not the case.
Also...at least in the last 11 games (where our record is an East best 8-3), i'll guess-timate based on memory that we have played ol' fashioned triangle halfcourt offense no more than 30% of the time. This is where it should be imho given our personnel. It shouldn't be as high as 50 and it should not be as low as 5-10% because it does have it's beauty at times and it does fool the defense completely sometimes.
CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:All I know is that despite all the expert commentary to the contrary, Rose and BJ are helping this team win games. As many of us have said, a player doesn't have to be a Metrics Champion to help your team win. These guards have flaws but they also have some great strengths and that's the part that many doubters tended to overlook.
The criticism and condemning of Rose before he set foot on the court and before the information concerning his legal matters came to light was ridiculous. I don't miss reading that stuff.
that stuff was bad. Anyone who said lets wait and see on the Rose trial was called out by mreinman as the same ilk who enabled Cosby. Neither have been around. Those were not good discussions. Glad its over.
fishmike wrote:CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:All I know is that despite all the expert commentary to the contrary, Rose and BJ are helping this team win games. As many of us have said, a player doesn't have to be a Metrics Champion to help your team win. These guards have flaws but they also have some great strengths and that's the part that many doubters tended to overlook.
The criticism and condemning of Rose before he set foot on the court and before the information concerning his legal matters came to light was ridiculous. I don't miss reading that stuff.
that stuff was bad. Anyone who said lets wait and see on the Rose trial was called out by mreinman as the same ilk who enabled Cosby. Neither have been around. Those were not good discussions. Glad its over.
+1
Cartman718 wrote:TLover wrote:Hornaceck ran 2 point guards in Phoenix with success. Rose & Jennings together with Lee or Holiday at the 3, Melo at 4, KP at the 5 can be a dominating line-up.
At least Phil is not stuffing triangle down Hornacek's throat. Even our own triangle-screen-grab guru nix is posting that we need to play more pnr and 4 out. I remember when that was not the case.
Also...at least in the last 11 games (where our record is an East best 8-3), i'll guess-timate based on memory that we have played ol' fashioned triangle halfcourt offense no more than 30% of the time. This is where it should be imho given our personnel. It shouldn't be as high as 50 and it should not be as low as 5-10% because it does have it's beauty at times and it does fool the defense completely sometimes.
Is it Phil? or was it Fisher who was also married to the triangle system. With Hornacek, he's not part of Phils Triangle club of players / coaches. So Hornacek is able to diverge away from the triangle with more success, since he came in with his own system knowledge. Phil wants his triangle to work, but he also wants to win! So there could be a suttle change on his part. I think Hornacek and Phil have a better marriage together, vs the other coaches who was only triangle centric.
blkexec wrote:Cartman718 wrote:TLover wrote:Hornaceck ran 2 point guards in Phoenix with success. Rose & Jennings together with Lee or Holiday at the 3, Melo at 4, KP at the 5 can be a dominating line-up.
At least Phil is not stuffing triangle down Hornacek's throat. Even our own triangle-screen-grab guru nix is posting that we need to play more pnr and 4 out. I remember when that was not the case.
Also...at least in the last 11 games (where our record is an East best 8-3), i'll guess-timate based on memory that we have played ol' fashioned triangle halfcourt offense no more than 30% of the time. This is where it should be imho given our personnel. It shouldn't be as high as 50 and it should not be as low as 5-10% because it does have it's beauty at times and it does fool the defense completely sometimes.
Is it Phil? or was it Fisher who was also married to the triangle system. With Hornacek, he's not part of Phils Triangle club of players / coaches. So Hornacek is able to diverge away from the triangle with more success, since he came in with his own system knowledge. Phil wants his triangle to work, but he also wants to win! So there could be a suttle change on his part. I think Hornacek and Phil have a better marriage together, vs the other coaches who was only triangle centric.
Fisher got fired because he deviated from the triangle..Triangle pupil aficionado Rambis was installed..Phil had a post season triangle camp, let's not forget...Hornacek was able to diverge because of the players/coaches/management meeting a few weeks ago, where players reported that Phil took it well...
Cartman718 wrote:TLover wrote:Hornaceck ran 2 point guards in Phoenix with success. Rose & Jennings together with Lee or Holiday at the 3, Melo at 4, KP at the 5 can be a dominating line-up.
At least Phil is not stuffing triangle down Hornacek's throat. Even our own triangle-screen-grab guru nix is posting that we need to play more pnr and 4 out. I remember when that was not the case.
Also...at least in the last 11 games (where our record is an East best 8-3), i'll guess-timate based on memory that we have played ol' fashioned triangle halfcourt offense no more than 30% of the time. This is where it should be imho given our personnel. It shouldn't be as high as 50 and it should not be as low as 5-10% because it does have it's beauty at times and it does fool the defense completely sometimes.
Just so we're clear i'm a fan of MANY offenses. I like studying the X's and O's and was just as supportive of SSOL as I was of the Triangle. When you have the personnel for either offense it makes sense. This roster has some guys that are good for the Triangle but some key players are tailor made for PnR, Uptempo. If you have PG's like Rose and BJ, then it makes sense to play more 4 Out PnR. They can't be stopped if you give them space to drive. It's not logical to squeeze them into the Triangle too much.
Jeff came into the job talking about running more Uptempo, PnR, Spacing and 3's. That's his style. Even with some Triangle they can still modify how they use the Triangle to fit Jeff's style. Fisher actually was right in what he was trying to do. I think Fish had other issues not related to his use of the Triangle. Phil was still convinced that with the previous roster he needed to see MORE Triangle. With this roster I think there's no way you should limit them to a Pure Triangle or even mostly Triangle. The Triangle has to be used sparingly with this roster. I think they've found a better balance, tho it's not perfect or consistent.
blkexec wrote:Cartman718 wrote:TLover wrote:Hornaceck ran 2 point guards in Phoenix with success. Rose & Jennings together with Lee or Holiday at the 3, Melo at 4, KP at the 5 can be a dominating line-up.
At least Phil is not stuffing triangle down Hornacek's throat. Even our own triangle-screen-grab guru nix is posting that we need to play more pnr and 4 out. I remember when that was not the case.
Also...at least in the last 11 games (where our record is an East best 8-3), i'll guess-timate based on memory that we have played ol' fashioned triangle halfcourt offense no more than 30% of the time. This is where it should be imho given our personnel. It shouldn't be as high as 50 and it should not be as low as 5-10% because it does have it's beauty at times and it does fool the defense completely sometimes.
Is it Phil? or was it Fisher who was also married to the triangle system. With Hornacek, he's not part of Phils Triangle club of players / coaches. So Hornacek is able to diverge away from the triangle with more success, since he came in with his own system knowledge. Phil wants his triangle to work, but he also wants to win! So there could be a suttle change on his part. I think Hornacek and Phil have a better marriage together, vs the other coaches who was only triangle centric.
He's said many times (Phil) believes in system basketball. Somehow the agenda driven crowd turned that into "Phil only took this job to prove how great the triangle is/was and that is his #1 motivation." Utterly ridiculous. When something works for you over and over again you stick with it. Thats equal parts logic and human nature. Year 1 purge. Year 2 draft. Year 3 spend and build. So far after 20 games we have a team worth watching with upside. Plenty of work left to do but we are starting to see many good things
More than a knicks fan, I think dk7th was a dk7th fan. He basically was more interested in proving how brilliant he was and that is understanding of advance stats made him intellectually superior to those average fans who judge players by mainly what they see on the court. I've said it before, this is where a little knowledge in the wrong hands can be dangerous. If you start with a predetermined position and seek out stats that support what you already determined, what value is it?
Welpee wrote:More than a knicks fan, I think dk7th was a dk7th fan. He basically was more interested in proving how brilliant he was and that is understanding of advance stats made him intellectually superior to those average fans who judge players by mainly what they see on the court. I've said it before, this is where a little knowledge in the wrong hands can be dangerous. If you start with a predetermined position and seek out stats that support what you already determined, what value is it?
+1 -- I've said this about many of the haters who would set up hoops for Melo to run through or make idiotic predictions or statements about "The Trade That Raped MSG" that over time, made absolutely no sense.
The sad thing was, in continually trying to TELL US ALL HOW BRILLIANT HE WAS dk7th more or less sounded like a petulant idiot. I mean, how many people on here post things like "I'm the ceo, I'm used to being right all the time..."
99% of his posts were unrelenting Melo hate, but he started one thread in Melo's entire tenure praising his play for one game against the Pacers. And then we're supposed to listen to his "fair and balanced" BS...
Oh well.
