If KP can keep his offensive output up I doubt many teams will keep their bangers on the floor which takes away their rim protection and could get the pgs going.
martin wrote:blkexec wrote:martin wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:Are there really that many bangers at the 5 positions anymore?
Not a ton but it has to do more with KP and his fragility?
As fragile as he is.....i still rather see him closer to the rim on defense than at the 3 pt line guarding stretch 4s.
Me too. I would have loved to see KP play 30+ minutes a game last year too but he was on a minutes restriction for a purpose though right? And it made sense?
So basically he doesn't have a position on defense....hes not a 4 or 5 right now. Tough situation as a coach measured by wins. I'm sure Jeff understands kp at 5 means melo at 4 means more wins. Will he and the franchise take that risk?
2 things going against kp playing center full time. He's not a full time player at any position. He will play the 4 n 5 his entire career. The other elephant in the room is noah. But it's definitely a risk with kp at 5 full time.
blkexec wrote:martin wrote:blkexec wrote:martin wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:Are there really that many bangers at the 5 positions anymore?
Not a ton but it has to do more with KP and his fragility?
As fragile as he is.....i still rather see him closer to the rim on defense than at the 3 pt line guarding stretch 4s.
Me too. I would have loved to see KP play 30+ minutes a game last year too but he was on a minutes restriction for a purpose though right? And it made sense?
So basically he doesn't have a position on defense....hes not a 4 or 5 right now. Tough situation as a coach measured by wins. I'm sure Jeff understands kp at 5 means melo at 4 means more wins. Will he and the franchise take that risk?
2 things going against kp playing center full time. He's not a full time player at any position. He will play the 4 n 5 his entire career. The other elephant in the room is noah. But it's definitely a risk with kp at 5 full time.
Didn't GS flipflop their center position depending on the matchup during the playoffs? Wonder if that would work in NY depending on the matchup or is that too crazy?
KP seems to be getting into foul trouble some - mostly on pumpfakes and the like - and I'm wondering how putting him at the 5 with non-defensive Melo at the 4 would prove out in the foul department for KP
martin wrote:blkexec wrote:martin wrote:blkexec wrote:martin wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:Are there really that many bangers at the 5 positions anymore?
Not a ton but it has to do more with KP and his fragility?
As fragile as he is.....i still rather see him closer to the rim on defense than at the 3 pt line guarding stretch 4s.
Me too. I would have loved to see KP play 30+ minutes a game last year too but he was on a minutes restriction for a purpose though right? And it made sense?
So basically he doesn't have a position on defense....hes not a 4 or 5 right now. Tough situation as a coach measured by wins. I'm sure Jeff understands kp at 5 means melo at 4 means more wins. Will he and the franchise take that risk?
2 things going against kp playing center full time. He's not a full time player at any position. He will play the 4 n 5 his entire career. The other elephant in the room is noah. But it's definitely a risk with kp at 5 full time.
Didn't GS flipflop their center position depending on the matchup during the playoffs? Wonder if that would work in NY depending on the matchup or is that too crazy?
KP seems to be getting into foul trouble some - mostly on pumpfakes and the like - and I'm wondering how putting him at the 5 with non-defensive Melo at the 4 would prove out in the foul department for KP
I could be wrong, but it definitely seems like he gets more fouls away from the basket. I think a move to the 5 would help with foul trouble. Right now he is being asked to guard too many quick forwards who can do a lot with the ball. Harrison Barnes, Tabias Harris, Marcus Morris, Ryan Anderson, Green from Memphis. Literally every team is using one of these players at the 4. It has to be tough for Porzingis to stay with them. But at the 5, he is good at jumping straight up around the basket to block shots, using his length and not having to worry about lateral defense.
martin wrote:blkexec wrote:martin wrote:blkexec wrote:martin wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:Are there really that many bangers at the 5 positions anymore?
Not a ton but it has to do more with KP and his fragility?
As fragile as he is.....i still rather see him closer to the rim on defense than at the 3 pt line guarding stretch 4s.
Me too. I would have loved to see KP play 30+ minutes a game last year too but he was on a minutes restriction for a purpose though right? And it made sense?
So basically he doesn't have a position on defense....hes not a 4 or 5 right now. Tough situation as a coach measured by wins. I'm sure Jeff understands kp at 5 means melo at 4 means more wins. Will he and the franchise take that risk?
2 things going against kp playing center full time. He's not a full time player at any position. He will play the 4 n 5 his entire career. The other elephant in the room is noah. But it's definitely a risk with kp at 5 full time.
Didn't GS flipflop their center position depending on the matchup during the playoffs? Wonder if that would work in NY depending on the matchup or is that too crazy?
KP seems to be getting into foul trouble some - mostly on pumpfakes and the like - and I'm wondering how putting him at the 5 with non-defensive Melo at the 4 would prove out in the foul department for KP
I agree, I think Noah is still useful depending on the matchup. We did talk about this on the first page, I think. Or maybe it was in Briggs' thread about Noah stealing $70M.
I think Noah is useful.
My point with this thread is that I don't think Melo can spend much time at the 3. I think Melo at the 3 hurts the team more than Noah at the 5. The problem is figuring out the lineup combinations. Maybe Noah comes in whenever Melo sits?
The bottom line is that Melo is not suited to guard opposing 3s anymore. And so the frontline of Melo, KP, Noah is too slow for the modern NBA. You can play 2 of the 3 - but I think having all three on the floor at once is not great for the team. Look at how many games the team comes out and is immediately down 10 pts in the first quarter. Some teams, it'll make sense against, but I think Hornacek has to be very quick to react to matchups in which this lineup hurts us.
jrodmc wrote:All those in favor of not whining like petulant beeyatches when Melo breaks down playing the 4 night in and night out, raise your foam finger.All those who think our 200lb wunderkind unicorn is going to last all season playing the five, please send in your red wine for the next Stat bath KP will be taking to magically extend his back and knees and feet. I'm sorry, and I know it was all of just a few months ago, but where did KP end his season? Oh yeah, the bench. In a suit. A really nice suit, too. And don't give me any sheehit about him playing if we had been in playoff contention at the time.
Can they both switch positions for a while? Sure. Wholesale, all year long changes like this? Eff No.
It's actually a bigger grind on both KP/Melo if they are having to chase 4s/3s around the perimeter, off-screens, in pick/roll and up and down the floor. It is easier for them to body up but be more stationary over all at the 4 and 5.
Most centers won't abuse KP around the rim but the issue for me with KP at the 5 becomes he's alone protecting the rim, could get in even more foul trouble as the sole rim protector and what happens to our rebounding overall as a defense/team.
Plus I like KP posting up and I tend to think he wouldn't as much of that at the 5. Dirk has for the most part played the 4 during his career and during his championship run -- I still think KP is fine as a 4 but it's Melo that is the issue.
I think what will really determine how this works is whether we can get consistency from Holiday. He's filling the LT role and if he can do as well as he did against Barnes nearly every night then this team can do some things. We don't have to have KP and Melo at 4 n 5 all game but to close the half and end games it could be the perfect scenario!!!
I'd rather see Lee guarding the 3s because his speed/quickness is slowing down plus he has a bit more size.
LivingLegend wrote:jrodmc wrote:All those in favor of not whining like petulant beeyatches when Melo breaks down playing the 4 night in and night out, raise your foam finger.All those who think our 200lb wunderkind unicorn is going to last all season playing the five, please send in your red wine for the next Stat bath KP will be taking to magically extend his back and knees and feet. I'm sorry, and I know it was all of just a few months ago, but where did KP end his season? Oh yeah, the bench. In a suit. A really nice suit, too. And don't give me any sheehit about him playing if we had been in playoff contention at the time.
Can they both switch positions for a while? Sure. Wholesale, all year long changes like this? Eff No.
It's actually a bigger grind on both KP/Melo if they are having to chase 4s/3s around the perimeter, off-screens, in pick/roll and up and down the floor. It is easier for them to body up but be more stationary over all at the 4 and 5.
Most centers won't abuse KP around the rim but the issue for me with KP at the 5 becomes he's alone protecting the rim, could get in even more foul trouble as the sole rim protector and what happens to our rebounding overall as a defense/team.
Plus I like KP posting up and I tend to think he wouldn't as much of that at the 5. Dirk has for the most part played the 4 during his career and during his championship run -- I still think KP is fine as a 4 but it's Melo that is the issue.
I would tend to think it would obviously be a bigger grind on them conditioning-wise to be guarding the perimeter and trying to keep up with faster, smaller players, but have real questions about it being easier to body up in the paint. That's what destroyed Stat, that's what wears Melo down (because he exspends a tremendous amount of energy bodying up on the offensive end) and did you cringe like I did when KP was getting knocked to the floor last night? Bodying up in the paint is not any way to stay healthy.
Noah is here specifically for your most valid points, to be another main rim protector and to rebound maniacally. Will that finally become conistent? I sure hope so.
No matter what the trade offs are, you're going to get more mileage out of Melo defending the 3 then you will with him banging against 4's defensively night in and night out. And if 3's blow by him, you've got rim protection there if Noah can keep last night's performance up.
From personal experience, it's less wear and tear when I guard someone bigger. But i also have a strong upper body. Guarding someone smaller is worst on the legs, joints, hips....while running through picks....much more work amd wear on your wheels guarding smalls than guarding bigs.
Keep in mind, today's big was yesterday's small. SGs are tall PGs.. SFs are natural SGs. So basically we are asking Melo at 32 not 22 to guard a SG? Asking a 7'3 Euro guy to guard a SF, who are basically PFs in today's game.
The reason why I liked the Noah addition is because he has enough lateral quickness to guard 4 positions, when healthy. Which gives KP has the option to guard someone small or big, depending on matchups. The problem is still on melo guarding a SG, who are more dynamic. Whatever he scores, he gives up the same points. Which is why it becomes the iso melo show, trying to out due his opponent.
crzymdups wrote:Running big lineups with two bigs and Melo at the 3 won't work in the modern NBA Starting lineup could be:
DRose
CLee
Holiday
Melo
KP
They need the spacing, the ball movement, the quickness on the perimeter with 3 smaller guys who can defend. The shooting upgrade from Noah to Holiday doesn't hurt either.
We all know we play better and Melo plays better at the 4 but to say he's below average at the 3 is a ridiculous thing to say. Is he the same player he used to be at the 3? No, but he's still a good offensive player at the 3. His problem at the 3 isn't his offense, it's guarding the quicker SF's.
martin wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:Are there really that many bangers at the 5 positions anymore?
Not a ton but it has to do more with KP and his fragility?
But isn't the next draft supposed to be a strong one for big men? I think i read something about it.
blkexec wrote:martin wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:Are there really that many bangers at the 5 positions anymore?
Not a ton but it has to do more with KP and his fragility?
As fragile as he is.....i still rather see him closer to the rim on defense than at the 3 pt line guarding stretch 4s.
This team still hasn't come together yet especially Noah and Rose so i'd rather wait to see how we play when we're playing more as a team before we make any significant changes. Rose and Noah still have more to their games coming so things will change as they get their legs under them and as we learn more and more on how to play together.
