Knicks · Where would Hernangomez get drafted now? Value of Kuz? (page 1)

We touched upon this before. The way Hernangomez is playing now, I would say mid 1st round pick or there abouts.

Kuz wasn't in the draft but with his age (27) and experience, I think he would be valuable to a team. I AM NOT SAYING TO TRADE HIM - just hypothetical value here.
I guess a later first round pick or a bit higher...

We have them locked up relatively cheap for a few years. We struck gold here.

EMS

Hindsight is always 20-20, but imagine if we knew they would be able to be rotation players and that O'Quinn would play like he has with Porzingis looking more mature and ready to close games at 5. This would allow us to not go in for Noah at 18 million a year and instead invest that money in shooting guard and wing depth for the bench. Someone like Eric Gordon or players of that caliber for our 2nd unit firepower. That said, Noah would have more value if we make the playoffs. It becomes a slower more physical game, with demands to defend certain match ups, I can see that his value would come in then. So lets see, but right now I certainly am loving how much we are getting out of O'Quinn, Hernangomez, Kuz and Holiday.

I still think Noah is going to prove to be valuable in the long run, especially if we make the playoffs. He may not be worth the money he's being paid, but I think he's going to come up big when we need him.

nyknickzingis wrote:Hindsight is always 20-20, but imagine if we knew they would be able to be rotation players and that O'Quinn would play like he has with Porzingis looking more mature and ready to close games at 5. This would allow us to not go in for Noah at 18 million a year and instead invest that money in shooting guard and wing depth for the bench. Someone like Eric Gordon or players of that caliber for our 2nd unit firepower. That said, Noah would have more value if we make the playoffs. It becomes a slower more physical game, with demands to defend certain match ups, I can see that his value would come in then. So lets see, but right now I certainly am loving how much we are getting out of O'Quinn, Hernangomez, Kuz and Holiday.

But if people were criticizing the Knicks for signing players with a history of injuries, they would really get slammed for signing Gordon.

Willy is a easy late lottery pick. His size, skill level and overall game make that an easy call. Kuz is a #2 because of his age

fishmike wrote:Willy is a easy late lottery pick. His size, skill level and overall game make that an easy call. Kuz is a #2 because of his age

I believe its the opposite with Kuz because of his age. 4 year players usually get picked lower than picks who leave early, even though they're more experienced. With Kuz it would probably be worse. I believe he would draw a much higher price now than if the Knicks had sold him as a stash pick, thats for sure.

I agree that Willy would be a late first rounder. David Lee had a different game, but Hernangomez is having the same impact that Lee had as a rook in NY, after he was picked in the late first round.

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:Willy is a easy late lottery pick. His size, skill level and overall game make that an easy call. Kuz is a #2 because of his age

I believe its the opposite with Kuz because of his age. 4 year players usually get picked lower than picks who leave early, even though they're more experienced. With Kuz it would probably be worse. I believe he would draw a much higher price now than if the Knicks had sold him as a stash pick, thats for sure.

I agree that Willy would be a late first rounder. David Lee had a different game, but Hernangomez is having the same impact that Lee had as a rook in NY, after he was picked in the late first round.

Look at guys like WCS, Kaminsky... recent lottery picks. You really think Willy goes much lower than them? He 22, shooting 58%, has defender Howard well, sets picks and boards all day, scores in the post... How is he a late first rounder? For a skilled big like Willy to drop out of the lottery it would have to be one of more epic drafts ever... I cant see that

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:Willy is a easy late lottery pick. His size, skill level and overall game make that an easy call. Kuz is a #2 because of his age

I believe its the opposite with Kuz because of his age. 4 year players usually get picked lower than picks who leave early, even though they're more experienced. With Kuz it would probably be worse. I believe he would draw a much higher price now than if the Knicks had sold him as a stash pick, thats for sure.

I agree that Willy would be a late first rounder. David Lee had a different game, but Hernangomez is having the same impact that Lee had as a rook in NY, after he was picked in the late first round.

Look at guys like WCS, Kaminsky... recent lottery picks. You really think Willy goes much lower than them? He 22, shooting 58%, has defender Howard well, sets picks and boards all day, scores in the post... How is he a late first rounder? For a skilled big like Willy to drop out of the lottery it would have to be one of more epic drafts ever... I cant see that

Got it, you're saying around 10-15 right? IDK. Kaminsky was showing more versatility in college, more of an all around game, WCS has no offense to speak of, but he was more dynamic. Willy might turn out to be better than both of them, but he didnt do anything that really stood out in Spain.

I still want to see more production from Willy, have to see how other picks are doing. Is Willy or Kuz on the NBA rookie ladder?

nyknickzingis wrote:Hindsight is always 20-20, but imagine if we knew they would be able to be rotation players and that O'Quinn would play like he has with Porzingis looking more mature and ready to close games at 5. This would allow us to not go in for Noah at 18 million a year and instead invest that money in shooting guard and wing depth for the bench. Someone like Eric Gordon or players of that caliber for our 2nd unit firepower. That said, Noah would have more value if we make the playoffs. It becomes a slower more physical game, with demands to defend certain match ups, I can see that his value would come in then. So lets see, but right now I certainly am loving how much we are getting out of O'Quinn, Hernangomez, Kuz and Holiday.

Noah is valuable to this team on and off the court and i think sometimes people overlook what a player like Noah brings to a team with his energy and leadership off the court in the locker room and on the bench and he's still a valuable piece on the floor. He played pretty much the whole 1st half and we were with them the whole way of that first half. Noah is gonna keep getting better as he gets his legs back under him and we'll win some games because of him.

newyorker4ever wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Hindsight is always 20-20, but imagine if we knew they would be able to be rotation players and that O'Quinn would play like he has with Porzingis looking more mature and ready to close games at 5. This would allow us to not go in for Noah at 18 million a year and instead invest that money in shooting guard and wing depth for the bench. Someone like Eric Gordon or players of that caliber for our 2nd unit firepower. That said, Noah would have more value if we make the playoffs. It becomes a slower more physical game, with demands to defend certain match ups, I can see that his value would come in then. So lets see, but right now I certainly am loving how much we are getting out of O'Quinn, Hernangomez, Kuz and Holiday.

Noah is valuable to this team on and off the court and i think sometimes people overlook what a player like Noah brings to a team with his energy and leadership off the court in the locker room and on the bench and he's still a valuable piece on the floor. He played pretty much the whole 1st half and we were with them the whole way of that first half. Noah is gonna keep getting better as he gets his legs back under him and we'll win some games because of him.

Sasha is valuable off the court too but we're not paying him $18 million per.

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:Willy is a easy late lottery pick. His size, skill level and overall game make that an easy call. Kuz is a #2 because of his age

I believe its the opposite with Kuz because of his age. 4 year players usually get picked lower than picks who leave early, even though they're more experienced. With Kuz it would probably be worse. I believe he would draw a much higher price now than if the Knicks had sold him as a stash pick, thats for sure.

I agree that Willy would be a late first rounder. David Lee had a different game, but Hernangomez is having the same impact that Lee had as a rook in NY, after he was picked in the late first round.

Look at guys like WCS, Kaminsky... recent lottery picks. You really think Willy goes much lower than them? He 22, shooting 58%, has defender Howard well, sets picks and boards all day, scores in the post... How is he a late first rounder? For a skilled big like Willy to drop out of the lottery it would have to be one of more epic drafts ever... I cant see that

Fair point. I was conservative in my placement of Billy but when you compare him to other lotto picks at his position, he certainly belongs in that conversation.
Really hard to believe. We basically got a lotto pick when we had no pick.

I think he slid as he isn't the most athletic guy - it always happens. But he was playing well against men overseas. Kaminsky was dominant in college and I think it is a bit harder to project college talent (at least for less athletic guys.)

WCS - what happened to him? He needs a team where he can show more of his all around game me thinks.

Kuz - I love the guy when he attacks and he seems to do that constantly. Remember when Gallo was here, same thing. Kuz is a great team player that seems to fit in perfectly with where we are going and how we play. I'd like to see his minutes get to 20 if possible. His defense is not really bad, depending on the matchup. Like I said, I could see a playoff team paying well for him. But now we are a playoff team, so that isn't going to happen.

earthmansurfer wrote:We touched upon this before. The way Hernangomez is playing now, I would say mid 1st round pick or there abouts.

Kuz wasn't in the draft but with his age (27) and experience, I think he would be valuable to a team. I AM NOT SAYING TO TRADE HIM - just hypothetical value here.
I guess a later first round pick or a bit higher...

We have them locked up relatively cheap for a few years. We struck gold here.

EMS

We would have to look at the draft and reselect everyone knowing what we know now. It's not a stretch to think Willy would go late 1st round. Considering his age, drafting Kuz in the first round is probably unlikely.

But you're right, getting those guys on the cheap is looking pretty good. I'm more impressed with the decision to develop them versus going out and getting retreads like Josh Smith or Lance Stevenson. As fans we just have to be patient and live with the inevitable rookie mistakes (i.e. the foul by Willy on Walker late in the game).

*** actually, taking a quick look at the draft, you might be right. Didn't realize how poorly some of these guys have been performing.

fishmike wrote:Willy is a easy late lottery pick. His size, skill level and overall game make that an easy call. Kuz is a #2 because of his age

At first I disagreed but now I think you may be right.

This is why you pay for Foreign scouts. The Knicks have actually done well in this regard. They don't get enough credit. Unlike College young studs don't often get a lot of playing time in Europe. Your scouts have to know how to judge talent even without big minutes. These guys go to team practices and other things. It's a serious job.

Re Willy... I read articles from that draft indicating that he would have been a late #1, but the lack of a buyout clause in his contract allowed him to fall in the 2nd Rnd. I seem to recall a rumor that SA was looking at him in the late 1st Rnd.

Looking at Willy now, I think you can make a case for him anywhere between 17-25 when comparing him to the players picked in those positions.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/draf...

I think we actually lucked out in that he got great seasoning in Spain last year, and playing with the Spanish national team boosted his confidence and poise, as well as giving him an opportunity to play with one of the most multi-talented bigs of our generation, Pau Gasol.

You can see him learning to adjust to the speed of the NBA, and he is still getting rid of some of his baby fat, so I expect him to be able to play at an even higher level, physically, the next few years.

I'm going to upgrade my opinion of him from a 20-25MPG rotation player to a probable NBA starter, and if he can become consistent with the 15-17 ft jumper, and continue his physical maturation, I think he can become a solid NBA performer in the 15PPG/ 10RPG/ 2/3APG 1BPG range.

The story is that Willy was noticed by Steve Mills when they were scouting KP. If this is true, got to give him some credit... if not true... it is still a great story.

reub wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Hindsight is always 20-20, but imagine if we knew they would be able to be rotation players and that O'Quinn would play like he has with Porzingis looking more mature and ready to close games at 5. This would allow us to not go in for Noah at 18 million a year and instead invest that money in shooting guard and wing depth for the bench. Someone like Eric Gordon or players of that caliber for our 2nd unit firepower. That said, Noah would have more value if we make the playoffs. It becomes a slower more physical game, with demands to defend certain match ups, I can see that his value would come in then. So lets see, but right now I certainly am loving how much we are getting out of O'Quinn, Hernangomez, Kuz and Holiday.

Noah is valuable to this team on and off the court and i think sometimes people overlook what a player like Noah brings to a team with his energy and leadership off the court in the locker room and on the bench and he's still a valuable piece on the floor. He played pretty much the whole 1st half and we were with them the whole way of that first half. Noah is gonna keep getting better as he gets his legs back under him and we'll win some games because of him.

Sasha is valuable off the court too but we're not paying him $18 million per.

Noah will have his moments this season, but overall, his signing helped the culture of the team and the lockerroom, I think. How many times have we said this team doesn't have a leader. Melo really isn't one, he's a great player, but he leads by example (though I do think he's becoming a better leader this season). Rose is a quiet dude who lets his game do the talking. Noah is an in your face leader. We needed one. Also Courtney Lee specifically signed here because of Noah.

I agree 4yrs is too long, but I think he'll be valuable for at least 2 years and possibly longer. Also, in the new cap, it's the equivalent of a guy making $9M a year in the old days. He's a little overpaid, but I think he will show real value this year and next. After that? Who knows, maybe there's a new amnesty clause for next season when the new CBA kicks in.

One thing that I think may be overlooked is how Noah has helped and will continue to help Rose's transition here.

And, yeah, I think you can make an argument that Willy has shown first round pick value, easily. We have him on a song of a contract - what is it 4yrs $5M total? That offsets the Noah contract a bit, too. As does Kuz at $3M per.

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:Willy is a easy late lottery pick. His size, skill level and overall game make that an easy call. Kuz is a #2 because of his age

I believe its the opposite with Kuz because of his age. 4 year players usually get picked lower than picks who leave early, even though they're more experienced. With Kuz it would probably be worse. I believe he would draw a much higher price now than if the Knicks had sold him as a stash pick, thats for sure.

I agree that Willy would be a late first rounder. David Lee had a different game, but Hernangomez is having the same impact that Lee had as a rook in NY, after he was picked in the late first round.

Look at guys like WCS, Kaminsky... recent lottery picks. You really think Willy goes much lower than them? He 22, shooting 58%, has defender Howard well, sets picks and boards all day, scores in the post... How is he a late first rounder? For a skilled big like Willy to drop out of the lottery it would have to be one of more epic drafts ever... I cant see that

Got it, you're saying around 10-15 right? IDK. Kaminsky was showing more versatility in college, more of an all around game, WCS has no offense to speak of, but he was more dynamic. Willy might turn out to be better than both of them, but he didnt do anything that really stood out in Spain.

I still want to see more production from Willy, have to see how other picks are doing. Is Willy or Kuz on the NBA rookie ladder?

Oh I agree... the question is where he would be in a re-draft no? Sevilla was not a good team, and Willy shot well but had a very limited role there. Knicks prob saw enough to merit what they spent on him. He's shown he's worth much more IMO.

we are a bit in "willy mania" so its hard to be objective. I'd say late first round is about right.
Often, its about the team, the personal and needs. Im not that into WCS and why he is not doing better.

Value of Kuz? I'd say still undetermined. But, at 3mm per it was a low risk.

crzymdups wrote:And, yeah, I think you can make an argument that Willy has shown first round pick value, easily. We have him on a song of a contract - what is it 4yrs $5M total? That offsets the Noah contract a bit, too. As does Kuz at $3M per.

this... when you look at the good GMs in the league do you over analyze every missed draft or every contract? No, you look at the big picture. To me Noah fits beautifully in the big picture. He's a veteran stop gap. Yes he will be overpaid at the end of his deal. He may be overpaid now, but he's got great value for us. If KOQ and Willy want minutes they need to outplay him. Its perfect. Its internal competition, and that is healthy. Noah isnt looking to get his. Did you see him in the 4th qtr? First of all JH has the confidence to go with Willy/Kuz down the stretch or in OT. Second Noah is the biggest cheerleader egging these guys on. Look at the whole roster.

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:And, yeah, I think you can make an argument that Willy has shown first round pick value, easily. We have him on a song of a contract - what is it 4yrs $5M total? That offsets the Noah contract a bit, too. As does Kuz at $3M per.

this... when you look at the good GMs in the league do you over analyze every missed draft or every contract? No, you look at the big picture. To me Noah fits beautifully in the big picture. He's a veteran stop gap. Yes he will be overpaid at the end of his deal. He may be overpaid now, but he's got great value for us. If KOQ and Willy want minutes they need to outplay him. Its perfect. Its internal competition, and that is healthy. Noah isnt looking to get his. Did you see him in the 4th qtr? First of all JH has the confidence to go with Willy/Kuz down the stretch or in OT. Second Noah is the biggest cheerleader egging these guys on. Look at the whole roster.

Yeah, that's why I didn't get people saying the ceiling for this team is 8th seed. The roster makes so much sense. I've said since July that the ceiling for this team can be Eastern Conference Finals if all goes right. We'd need something to go wrong in Cleveland to make it further than that, but this team has a high ceiling. As Phil said - the Rose move is low risk with a potential for big gains.

Billy is solid but he provides no rim protection. He would probably be a 16-30 type pick if he were coming out of college. Teams tend to got for shot blocks when looking at a center. Noah has played solid. He is not as good as he was,but it is not like he is playing terribly. We will need him come playoff time.