Knicks · Melo vs. Bernard at the same age (page 2)
Bonn1997 wrote:jrodmc wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Kemet wrote:Ha Ha .. u can not measure Melo to a Super Star Bernard King .. After Kings first season performance as a Knicks the wins gave MSG the power to double the price on seat tickets. Bernard King made us a playoff team.
With Melo, after the league medical staff finalize the Melo trade to NY, MSG double the price of seat tickets before Melo put on his first Knicks Jersey LMAOMelo took the Knicks to the playoffs his first three years here.
That's a bit of spinning. His first year here the team had a slightly better record before he joined the team. I wouldn't go along with the idea that one guy takes the team to the playoffs anyway even if the guy has a really high PPG average. In the good years (especially the 54 win year) we've had many important players.Oh yes, JKidd's retirement party, half of Rashweed (although I grant you, Melo does owe him for the three to the head thing), KrazyEyes and the remember the one game from Utah! 2 WHOLE WEEKS OF LINSANITY! And where did all those important players go in the playoffs?
Really, really nice try.
Huh? Do you think that refutes what I said? My point was that you can't honestly say Melo carried the team to the playoffs when the team was worse with him. Hating Lin, Kidd, or anyone else on the team doesn't change that.
Huh?
"In the good years we've had many important players"
Say something about what those many important players did in the playoffs?
His first year here, Flameout Stat was being rode hard and put away wet by SSOL Dantoni. Say something about where he was after Melo got here that first season?
Anything to say about the years BEFORE Melo got here?
Weak Bonn. The passage of time is not making your Melohate any more credible.
NYKBocker wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:jrodmc wrote:NYKBocker wrote:The price for getting Melo was the reason he is viewed this way. If he just waited for the off season to join us as a FA and had Gallo, The Mayor and Mozzy with him...he would have been revered as a Knick.Gallo - tell me all about his HOF career so far.
The Mayor - last seen in China, I believe.
Moz - famous for the gifts LeQ sends back to him for getting him a ring. I remember Nazr Mohammed was on the Knicks too at one time; he's got a ring...You forgot Ray Felton!
that leaves some draft picks and some spare jimmieD change. Really, really high price. Yes hot dayum indeedy, I really wish we had all the chips and success Denver got with all that stuff we gave away...
There are some trades where both teams come out as winners. This looks like one where both came out as losers.People remember their first impression more than the actual outcome. Knick fans were in love with that group and was romantacizing how Melo could be the final piece for a championship contender if he just waited for free agency and signed for a lower price but still a lot of money. Instead, he forced himself here and left the cubbard bare.
Me personally, I hated the deal, but right now I love Melo. I want him to stay and win one with KP. He grew on me.
People who continually spent their time circle jerking over 4 players who amounted to less than a zit on Melo's arse (one fourth of said zit we got back for nothing), and were posting their brains out immediately after the trade about the Denver Dynasty that actually never happened, who conveniently continue to ignore the uncertainty of what was going to happen immediately after the trade with the new CBA, who also like to say "forced himself here" instead of "Melo wanted to be here".
The cupboard had nothing in it to begin with.
We got our first real franchise star player since Sprewell who got us to the playoffs after 5-6 seasons of nothing.
Most of the insane rabid hater posse are now gone, which essentially shows that all those "true knick fans" were actually just "true fans of their own opinion".
yeah, i said posse.
10 years from now, you'll have people posting on here about how Lin was a better knick than Melo.
jrodmc wrote:I completely agree. Nobody we gave up made all-NBA or played in a single all-star game. Not to mention, we received Chauncey Billups with Melo. Everyone we gave up for Melo was easily replaceable.NYKBocker wrote:The price for getting Melo was the reason he is viewed this way. If he just waited for the off season to join us as a FA and had Gallo, The Mayor and Mozzy with him...he would have been revered as a Knick.Gallo - tell me all about his HOF career so far.
The Mayor - last seen in China, I believe.
Moz - famous for the gifts LeQ sends back to him for getting him a ring. I remember Nazr Mohammed was on the Knicks too at one time; he's got a ring...You forgot Ray Felton!
that leaves some draft picks and some spare jimmieD change. Really, really high price. Yes hot dayum indeedy, I really wish we had all the chips and success Denver got with all that stuff we gave away...
Compare that to the Eddy Curry trade where we gave up draft picks that resulted in two all-NBA players (Aldridge and Noah) and in return received a straight up bum.
Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...
Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I don't think anyone left here hates Melo. At a salary commensurate with his production, I'd actually love to have him here. I realized that wouldn't happen and wanted him traded though.
When analyzing the cost of Melo, you have to look at how much we could have gotten instead for those young players on rookie contracts and have to consider the picks and 200 mil in salary room we've given up.
Bonn1997 wrote:You gotta give me names not hypotheticals. Who do you think we realistically could've obtained? Deron Williams? Joe Johnson? They would've been better acquisitions than Melo?Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I don't think anyone left here hates Melo. At a salary commensurate with his production, I'd actually love to have him here. I realized that wouldn't happen and wanted him traded though.When analyzing the cost of Melo, you have to look at how much we could have gotten instead for those young players on rookie contracts and have to consider the picks and 200 mil in salary room we've given up.
And considering how people overrate how much big time free agents want to come to NY, you can't count on anyone better coming here via free agency. Dallas has had one of the best situations in the NBA: superstar franchise player in his prime, great owner, great environment, great city, winning teams and could never land a big time free agent.
WE know Melo loves hats, but if he wore one like Bernard did......The haters would blow up!!!!
good point about expectations. "for the money" is always a factor and certainly King was exceptional!
Melo too, but we expected it. What we WANTED was more winning, but as we know there are many factors that go with that!
Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:You gotta give me names not hypotheticals. Who do you think we realistically could've obtained?Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I don't think anyone left here hates Melo. At a salary commensurate with his production, I'd actually love to have him here. I realized that wouldn't happen and wanted him traded though.When analyzing the cost of Melo, you have to look at how much we could have gotten instead for those young players on rookie contracts and have to consider the picks and 200 mil in salary room we've given up.
And considering how people overrate how much big time free agents want to come to NY, you can't count on anyone better coming here via free agency. Dallas has had one of the best situations in the NBA: superstar franchise player in his prime, great owner, great environment, great city, winning teams and could never land a big time free agent.
I've been giving names over the past 5 years. There's no reason a fan who doesn't do this for a living should have to come up with a comprehensive list though. And I'm not stuck on only one person replacing Melo. I've indicated who I'd be looking to hire to make these kinds of decisions. Plenty of metrics and common sense would indicate Melo was not worth the largest contract on the planet. Now if you want to argue our management was not competent enough to build a situation that attracts good FAS, you're probably right. (Overpaying for Melo twice was just a symptom of many problems and we probably would have overpaid for someone else instead.) But that takes the conversation in a much broader direction.
jrodmc wrote:Vmart wrote:Did you guys ever wonder what King was playing with. Honestly everyone except for King were back ups. Cartwright was his best teammate. Who was later a role player for the Bulls.Wow, you really should use the smilies when being sarcastic. Or self-deprecating.
Weren't you one of the tkf/d7kth groupies shooting this whole argument down for Melo here?
How about playing with Chris Smith? Landry "Parabola" Fields? Broken Camby Dammit! Fishlips! Toney Dougless?
The ultimate Melo apologist. Melo joined the team Amare was playing lights out and basically carried the team until his back gave out in the playoffs let's not forget Chauncey either. Make no mention that Amare was having a MVP type season. 54 win team Kidd who was the ultimate floor leader driving the team until his wheels fell off. The year before Lin made everyone better Chandler, Fish lips and all were thriving. Then along came Melo.
Stop being a Melo apologist and realize his short comings. He doesn't make anyone better he isn't efficient.
BK shot 50%+from the floor. When the hell did Melo ever do that? Your comparing an efficient scorer to a volume shooter.
To even say if we stuck with Shy Wilson, Gallo, Timo and the picks and what that would have produced is hard to say. That group would have altered draft picks and subsequent moves afterwards, including the acquisition of Bargnani and perhaps landing in the spot where KP was drafted. Its been YEARS since the deal was done and thus to recreate the trajectory of what would have been is nearly impossible. What we do know is Melo would be a Net
As so often discussed we left the cupboard empty but the concept of DPOY at the time FluTyson (eating BIllups 14mil and paying Tyson the same in one year!!!!), a Healthy AMare and in prime Melo was a very attractive prospect AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME!!!! If JR smith lived up to his potential, and KIdd just a role player as well as Felton living up to his as a lottery pick there was talent. On that vein, Bargnani was talented!!!
But those oh so many intangables!!!!!! They add up, or in knicks case THEY SUBTRACT!!!!
The above was in line with a dream of McDyess, Vin Backer and Mutumbo with H20.......starphuch concepts never realized are a Dolanesque symptom(Baker was rumored before he went to boston!!).
My point........There was a vision and most of us in the UK are fairly astute even at the time to recognize we have seen this movie before.
Whats different this time? Phil Jax is no dolan stooge. Whats the evidence? This franchise's back bone is not on Melo's shoulders or Rose's knees but on a 7'3 Latvian Wunderkind!!!! Starphuch Rose trade gives us not medical concept of his return, but after this season , basically two full seasons of him back on the floor (last year he played 67 games missing games NOT related to previous injury) BEFORE we sign him long term. If we sign him long term! PHil ate crow about Derek Fisher and fired him, and hired a NON STARPHUCH coach in his place. Phil got Jennings on a make good deal. Phil incubated a EuroStash (Willy) and an unorthodox Euro (Kuz) signing on a late bloomer. These are not Starphuckedly like the past.
Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I was going to look up the efficiency stat, thanks for posting it. I remembered Bernard as being super efficient, night in and night out. I love having Melo, just wish he could be more efficient here. I would take a healthy Bernard over Melo though, that efficiency is just too attractive. That said, if Melo would learn to pass when his shot is off, he could be a constant force. I think Melo being Melo is where the selfish talks comes up. Too much dribbling and shooting out of frequent slumps, instead of being the team leader than. Not saying that with hate, the guy has the talent and know how to do it, but chooses to be the central point (most nights).
Not the end of the world.
But Utah was crafty waiting for the deal to go and then offer Deron Williams as the consolation prize.
The feeling is who ever lost that bidding war would be hot to move players rumored to be in the Melo deal, and sooth the losing team its hunger to make a deal.
Deron was coveted. I suppose Utah has many conversations about Favors, but since Deron declined its an easier one.
Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, but think about it, we cleared the deck for the great free agent class when Lebron, Wade, Bosh, etc. were available and a risky Amare (who nobody else wanted to sign for 5 years) and a perpetually overweight Felton was all we could land. So there isn't much to lead me to believe we would have landed better players than Melo in free agency with all of this cap space. Especially after Amare started breaking down.Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:You gotta give me names not hypotheticals. Who do you think we realistically could've obtained?Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I don't think anyone left here hates Melo. At a salary commensurate with his production, I'd actually love to have him here. I realized that wouldn't happen and wanted him traded though.When analyzing the cost of Melo, you have to look at how much we could have gotten instead for those young players on rookie contracts and have to consider the picks and 200 mil in salary room we've given up.
And considering how people overrate how much big time free agents want to come to NY, you can't count on anyone better coming here via free agency. Dallas has had one of the best situations in the NBA: superstar franchise player in his prime, great owner, great environment, great city, winning teams and could never land a big time free agent.
I've been giving names over the past 5 years. There's no reason a fan who doesn't do this for a living should have to come up with a comprehensive list though. And I'm not stuck on only one person replacing Melo. I've indicated who I'd be looking to hire to make these kinds of decisions. Plenty of metrics and common sense would indicate Melo was not worth the largest contract on the planet. Now if you want to argue our management was not competent enough to build a situation that attracts good FAS, you're probably right. (Overpaying for Melo twice was just a symptom of many problems and we probably would have overpaid for someone else instead.) But that takes the conversation in a much broader direction.
I just don't think there's much tangible evidence that we would've been better not acquiring Melo unless part of your thought process is keeping our picks and a boatload of mediocre players would've resulted in worse winning records and would've yielded a franchise player in the draft, which is somewhat dubious.
earthmansurfer wrote:No doubt, King at his best is clearly better than Melo at his best.Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I was going to look up the efficiency stat, thanks for posting it. I remembered Bernard as being super efficient, night in and night out. I love having Melo, just wish he could be more efficient here. I would take a healthy Bernard over Melo though, that efficiency is just too attractive. That said, if Melo would learn to pass when his shot is off, he could be a constant force. I think Melo being Melo is where the selfish talks comes up. Too much dribbling and shooting out of frequent slumps, instead of being the team leader than. Not saying that with hate, the guy has the talent and know how to do it, but chooses to be the central point (most nights).
Nalod wrote:I dare to think that if Dolan did not do what he did, Melo is a Net.He would have been a net. I believe Walsh said that in his podcast. Knicks might have gone for Deron. That would have sucked. Deron, Amare, Tyson. Can't imagine a more overrated, injured, sick, uninspired trio on the planet.
Not the end of the world.
But Utah was crafty waiting for the deal to go and then offer Deron Williams as the consolation prize.
The feeling is who ever lost that bidding war would be hot to move players rumored to be in the Melo deal, and sooth the losing team its hunger to make a deal.
Deron was coveted. I suppose Utah has many conversations about Favors, but since Deron declined its an easier one.
Welpee wrote:earthmansurfer wrote:No doubt, King at his best is clearly better than Melo at his best.Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I was going to look up the efficiency stat, thanks for posting it. I remembered Bernard as being super efficient, night in and night out. I love having Melo, just wish he could be more efficient here. I would take a healthy Bernard over Melo though, that efficiency is just too attractive. That said, if Melo would learn to pass when his shot is off, he could be a constant force. I think Melo being Melo is where the selfish talks comes up. Too much dribbling and shooting out of frequent slumps, instead of being the team leader than. Not saying that with hate, the guy has the talent and know how to do it, but chooses to be the central point (most nights).
I believe Melo has had a more consistent career as King had a rough time over many years personally. That spills over to the career.
When King came "home", he got laser focused and those two years were magic! He returned to a high level as he had set his bar high.
I watched the "Earnie and Bernie" Documentary on the ESPN "30 on 30" and he really was prone to being withdrawn and going to college in Tennessee when he did was a really bad gig. That set off a pattern of drinking and I would say depression. Melo was coveted as highly in high school and loved in Syracuse! His college career and entry to NBA in another era was far easier.
At there respected apex of their career, I agree King was a better player. If all things were equal, I think King would have been in some higher rating conversations. If that happened, he would have been an allstar for the Nets for years, not fallen from grace and picked up by the knicks after some drinking problems.
Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, but think about it, we cleared the deck for the great free agent class when Lebron, Wade, Bosh, etc. were available and a risky Amare (who nobody else wanted to sign for 5 years) and a perpetually overweight Felton was all we could land. So there isn't much to lead me to believe we would have landed better players than Melo in free agency with all of this cap space. Especially after Amare started breaking down.Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:You gotta give me names not hypotheticals. Who do you think we realistically could've obtained?Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I don't think anyone left here hates Melo. At a salary commensurate with his production, I'd actually love to have him here. I realized that wouldn't happen and wanted him traded though.When analyzing the cost of Melo, you have to look at how much we could have gotten instead for those young players on rookie contracts and have to consider the picks and 200 mil in salary room we've given up.
And considering how people overrate how much big time free agents want to come to NY, you can't count on anyone better coming here via free agency. Dallas has had one of the best situations in the NBA: superstar franchise player in his prime, great owner, great environment, great city, winning teams and could never land a big time free agent.
I've been giving names over the past 5 years. There's no reason a fan who doesn't do this for a living should have to come up with a comprehensive list though. And I'm not stuck on only one person replacing Melo. I've indicated who I'd be looking to hire to make these kinds of decisions. Plenty of metrics and common sense would indicate Melo was not worth the largest contract on the planet. Now if you want to argue our management was not competent enough to build a situation that attracts good FAS, you're probably right. (Overpaying for Melo twice was just a symptom of many problems and we probably would have overpaid for someone else instead.) But that takes the conversation in a much broader direction.
I just don't think there's much tangible evidence that we would've been better not acquiring Melo unless part of your thought process is keeping our picks and a boatload of mediocre players would've resulted in worse winning records and would've yielded a franchise player in the draft, which is somewhat dubious.
You have to build a desirable situation first. Then FAs come.
Nalod wrote:Over paying Melo over the alternative hypothetical in hindsight is easy to conjure.
To even say if we stuck with Shy Wilson, Gallo, Timo and the picks and what that would have produced is hard to say. That group would have altered draft picks and subsequent moves afterwards, including the acquisition of Bargnani and perhaps landing in the spot where KP was drafted. Its been YEARS since the deal was done and thus to recreate the trajectory of what would have been is nearly impossible. What we do know is Melo would be a NetAs so often discussed we left the cupboard empty but the concept of DPOY at the time FluTyson (eating BIllups 14mil and paying Tyson the same in one year!!!!), a Healthy AMare and in prime Melo was a very attractive prospect AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME!!!! If JR smith lived up to his potential, and KIdd just a role player as well as Felton living up to his as a lottery pick there was talent. On that vein, Bargnani was talented!!!
But those oh so many intangables!!!!!! They add up, or in knicks case THEY SUBTRACT!!!!
The above was in line with a dream of McDyess, Vin Backer and Mutumbo with H20.......starphuch concepts never realized are a Dolanesque symptom(Baker was rumored before he went to boston!!).
My point........There was a vision and most of us in the UK are fairly astute even at the time to recognize we have seen this movie before.Whats different this time? Phil Jax is no dolan stooge. Whats the evidence? This franchise's back bone is not on Melo's shoulders or Rose's knees but on a 7'3 Latvian Wunderkind!!!! Starphuch Rose trade gives us not medical concept of his return, but after this season , basically two full seasons of him back on the floor (last year he played 67 games missing games NOT related to previous injury) BEFORE we sign him long term. If we sign him long term! PHil ate crow about Derek Fisher and fired him, and hired a NON STARPHUCH coach in his place. Phil got Jennings on a make good deal. Phil incubated a EuroStash (Willy) and an unorthodox Euro (Kuz) signing on a late bloomer. These are not Starphuckedly like the past.
Phil was a starphuck and he is showing it...Without the starphuck Melo and Rose, we are a 20 win team..Noah not a starphuck?
It time to start seeing Phil for what he is, no?
Phil had to make the Noah and Rose moves because MSG have been losing money over the last year, he is trying win games and put fannies in seats, eye on the tubes...So he pulled a starphuck...So is he really not marching to Dolan's tune?..I don't know..All I know if Phil keeps losing money he will be gone...
Not trading your 1st round picks. Not starphuch like.
RoPez was not. His value grew and we got Rose via trade.
Rose is a free agent. Not Amare like.
Ridding players and HEAD COACHES that don't adhere to the plan. Not Starphuch like.
Im not going to call noah a bust for two more seasons. If the current trend continues, for sure it was not a good signing.
Despite that, if healthy he is a a guy that builds culture, a good passer, and a positive type guy.
I don't see where the Knicks are mortgaging the future. Knicks sell out and do well. MSG losing money, not a knick thing.
And in PHils place, what is your suggestion?
Phil made a money grab when taking the job and thought implementing the triangle was the most important thing to do..
He surrounded himself with loyalist who would follow his plan of what is good and comfortable for Phil, not the team...
His instinct for talent hasn't been the best..I thought he really thought Calderon was a good triangle fit..
He really wanted Monroe who is currently riding the pine, most of the trades we came up on the short end..
Noah is not looking like such a hot pick up...
I think the game has changed a lot in the last three years and Phil isn't really thinking differently...
He really hasn't forged a plan for success, he has been hedging almost every move he has made..
And when you hedge everything, can't make the money you want...
The best, best thing I would give Phil credit for is not trading any draft picks...Thank you Phil...
But the idea that we are in a better place because of Phil, how could we not be, with all the big contracts rolling off in his first year on the job...
Props for the KP pick up, he will be a star...
Phil was expected to do more in my opinion, I think he let his sense of self importance get in the way of building something good...Triangle above all..
We aren't in a bad place to be honest, I just don't see a way forward unless some one hand us two bench pieces like we handed Cleveland...
I don't see the euphoria, all I can say he didn't hurt us...
Knicks are the biggest component of MSG, If Knicks isn't making money then neither is MSG...Rangers are doing well...
You and I know stock holders, the board, don't care how many rings you have...