Knicks · Melo vs. Bernard at the same age (page 3)
Phil made a money grab when taking the job and thought implementing the triangle was the most important thing to do..
He surrounded himself with loyalist who would follow his plan of what is good and comfortable for Phil, not the team...
His instinct for talent hasn't been the best..I thought he really thought Calderon was a good triangle fit..
He really wanted Monroe who is currently riding the pine, most of the trades we came up on the short end..
Noah is not looking like such a hot pick up...
I think the game has changed a lot in the last three years and Phil isn't really thinking differently...
He really hasn't forged a plan for success, he has been hedging almost every move he has made..
And when you hedge everything, can't make the money you want...
The best, best thing I would give Phil credit for is not trading any draft picks...Thank you Phil...
But the idea that we are in a better place because of Phil, how could we not be, with all the big contracts rolling off in his first year on the job...
Props for the KP pick up, he will be a star...
Phil was expected to do more in my opinion, I think he let his sense of self importance get in the way of building something good...Triangle above all..
We aren't in a bad place to be honest, I just don't see a way forward unless some one hand us two bench pieces like we handed Cleveland...
I don't see the euphoria, all I can say he didn't hurt us...
Knicks are the biggest component of MSG, If Knicks isn't making money then neither is MSG...Rangers are doing well...
You and I know stock holders, the board, don't care how many rings you have...
Bonn1997 wrote:Perhaps, but how? You acquire players via three routes: FA, draft, trade. If you're starting with a foundation of Gallo, Wilson Chandler, Jordan Hill, David Lee, Toney Douglas, how are you going to build this desirable situation and how long is it going to take? Duplicate Philly's plan?Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, but think about it, we cleared the deck for the great free agent class when Lebron, Wade, Bosh, etc. were available and a risky Amare (who nobody else wanted to sign for 5 years) and a perpetually overweight Felton was all we could land. So there isn't much to lead me to believe we would have landed better players than Melo in free agency with all of this cap space. Especially after Amare started breaking down.Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:You gotta give me names not hypotheticals. Who do you think we realistically could've obtained?Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I don't think anyone left here hates Melo. At a salary commensurate with his production, I'd actually love to have him here. I realized that wouldn't happen and wanted him traded though.When analyzing the cost of Melo, you have to look at how much we could have gotten instead for those young players on rookie contracts and have to consider the picks and 200 mil in salary room we've given up.
And considering how people overrate how much big time free agents want to come to NY, you can't count on anyone better coming here via free agency. Dallas has had one of the best situations in the NBA: superstar franchise player in his prime, great owner, great environment, great city, winning teams and could never land a big time free agent.
I've been giving names over the past 5 years. There's no reason a fan who doesn't do this for a living should have to come up with a comprehensive list though. And I'm not stuck on only one person replacing Melo. I've indicated who I'd be looking to hire to make these kinds of decisions. Plenty of metrics and common sense would indicate Melo was not worth the largest contract on the planet. Now if you want to argue our management was not competent enough to build a situation that attracts good FAS, you're probably right. (Overpaying for Melo twice was just a symptom of many problems and we probably would have overpaid for someone else instead.) But that takes the conversation in a much broader direction.
I just don't think there's much tangible evidence that we would've been better not acquiring Melo unless part of your thought process is keeping our picks and a boatload of mediocre players would've resulted in worse winning records and would've yielded a franchise player in the draft, which is somewhat dubious.
You have to build a desirable situation first. Then FAs come.
holfresh wrote:The point isn't about who do we need to replace Phil, it was acknowledging who Phil is and not prop him up to be something he isn't...
Phil made a money grab when taking the job and thought implementing the triangle was the most important thing to do..
He surrounded himself with loyalist who would follow his plan of what is good and comfortable for Phil, not the team...
His instinct for talent hasn't been the best..I thought he really thought Calderon was a good triangle fit..
He really wanted Monroe who is currently riding the pine, most of the trades we came up on the short end..
Noah is not looking like such a hot pick up...
I think the game has changed a lot in the last three years and Phil isn't really thinking differently...
He really hasn't forged a plan for success, he has been hedging almost every move he has made..
And when you hedge everything, can't make the money you want...
The best, best thing I would give Phil credit for is not trading any draft picks...Thank you Phil...
But the idea that we are in a better place because of Phil, how could we not be, with all the big contracts rolling off in his first year on the job...
Props for the KP pick up, he will be a star...
Phil was expected to do more in my opinion, I think he let his sense of self importance get in the way of building something good...Triangle above all..
We aren't in a bad place to be honest, I just don't see a way forward unless some one hand us two bench pieces like we handed Cleveland...
I don't see the euphoria, all I can say he didn't hurt us...Knicks are the biggest component of MSG, If Knicks isn't making money then neither is MSG...Rangers are doing well...
You and I know stock holders, the board, don't care how many rings you have...
Money grab? 12mil was what he made in 09-10 with Lakers.
Loyalist=Trusted colleagues.
Jose is better than Felton. I think the idea was he was to mentor Langston and Grant and they start. I'll take the tank job and no panic moves. not panicking (Starphucking) resulted in Rose and Jennings.
Monroe? I thought we never made an offer to him. I know we met with him. Thats all. The rest was media/fan driven?
Tyson? I think we over state his trade value.
Shump and JR Regret? not here. Those guys worked as role players for Lebron and all that is right with him. JR in short term can be good. You like him this year? You want to have resigned him for 14mil per? Shump for 10mil?
for Jax at 12mil a year expect miracles? I suppose so. I can understand. Nalod was hoping he would tear it down to the studs. he did.
12mil cost fans anything? Cap space? I don't care. I love the guy and his arrogance.
Rose for RoPez was very good trade.
Noah? It looks bad early on. Very early. Not feeling it either but Noah's contracts about as long as Trumps term.
IN a better place? Phil could have been impatient and traded picks like others have. Old vets, etc. Then we back to square one again and again.
Euphoric? Not really. KP gives us the big hope. we a .500 team and maybe a 6 or 7th seed if things go right.
And we have a unicorn.
Bonn1997 wrote:Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, but think about it, we cleared the deck for the great free agent class when Lebron, Wade, Bosh, etc. were available and a risky Amare (who nobody else wanted to sign for 5 years) and a perpetually overweight Felton was all we could land. So there isn't much to lead me to believe we would have landed better players than Melo in free agency with all of this cap space. Especially after Amare started breaking down.Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:You gotta give me names not hypotheticals. Who do you think we realistically could've obtained?Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I don't think anyone left here hates Melo. At a salary commensurate with his production, I'd actually love to have him here. I realized that wouldn't happen and wanted him traded though.When analyzing the cost of Melo, you have to look at how much we could have gotten instead for those young players on rookie contracts and have to consider the picks and 200 mil in salary room we've given up.
And considering how people overrate how much big time free agents want to come to NY, you can't count on anyone better coming here via free agency. Dallas has had one of the best situations in the NBA: superstar franchise player in his prime, great owner, great environment, great city, winning teams and could never land a big time free agent.
I've been giving names over the past 5 years. There's no reason a fan who doesn't do this for a living should have to come up with a comprehensive list though. And I'm not stuck on only one person replacing Melo. I've indicated who I'd be looking to hire to make these kinds of decisions. Plenty of metrics and common sense would indicate Melo was not worth the largest contract on the planet. Now if you want to argue our management was not competent enough to build a situation that attracts good FAS, you're probably right. (Overpaying for Melo twice was just a symptom of many problems and we probably would have overpaid for someone else instead.) But that takes the conversation in a much broader direction.
I just don't think there's much tangible evidence that we would've been better not acquiring Melo unless part of your thought process is keeping our picks and a boatload of mediocre players would've resulted in worse winning records and would've yielded a franchise player in the draft, which is somewhat dubious.
You have to build a desirable situation first. Then FAs come.
Since Melo came, the Knicks have signed as free agents:
Tyson Chandler
JR Smith
Jason Kidd
Rasheed Wallace
Kurt Thomas
Arron Afflalo
Robin Lopez
Derrick Williams
Joakim Noah
Courtney Lee
Brandon Jennings
Mindagaus Kuzminskas
Lance Thomas took less to re-sign
Those are all desireable players other teams wanted. Seems FA are not exactly staying away
crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, but think about it, we cleared the deck for the great free agent class when Lebron, Wade, Bosh, etc. were available and a risky Amare (who nobody else wanted to sign for 5 years) and a perpetually overweight Felton was all we could land. So there isn't much to lead me to believe we would have landed better players than Melo in free agency with all of this cap space. Especially after Amare started breaking down.Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:You gotta give me names not hypotheticals. Who do you think we realistically could've obtained?Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I don't think anyone left here hates Melo. At a salary commensurate with his production, I'd actually love to have him here. I realized that wouldn't happen and wanted him traded though.When analyzing the cost of Melo, you have to look at how much we could have gotten instead for those young players on rookie contracts and have to consider the picks and 200 mil in salary room we've given up.
And considering how people overrate how much big time free agents want to come to NY, you can't count on anyone better coming here via free agency. Dallas has had one of the best situations in the NBA: superstar franchise player in his prime, great owner, great environment, great city, winning teams and could never land a big time free agent.
I've been giving names over the past 5 years. There's no reason a fan who doesn't do this for a living should have to come up with a comprehensive list though. And I'm not stuck on only one person replacing Melo. I've indicated who I'd be looking to hire to make these kinds of decisions. Plenty of metrics and common sense would indicate Melo was not worth the largest contract on the planet. Now if you want to argue our management was not competent enough to build a situation that attracts good FAS, you're probably right. (Overpaying for Melo twice was just a symptom of many problems and we probably would have overpaid for someone else instead.) But that takes the conversation in a much broader direction.
I just don't think there's much tangible evidence that we would've been better not acquiring Melo unless part of your thought process is keeping our picks and a boatload of mediocre players would've resulted in worse winning records and would've yielded a franchise player in the draft, which is somewhat dubious.
You have to build a desirable situation first. Then FAs come.Since Melo came, the Knicks have signed as free agents:
Tyson Chandler
JR Smith
Jason Kidd
Rasheed Wallace
Kurt Thomas
Arron Afflalo
Robin Lopez
Derrick Williams
Joakim Noah
Courtney Lee
Brandon Jennings
Mindagaus Kuzminskas
Lance Thomas took less to re-signThose are all desireable players other teams wanted. Seems FA are not exactly staying away
I meant, you want to get good FAs on good contracts, not just by badly outbidding everyone else.
Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, but think about it, we cleared the deck for the great free agent class when Lebron, Wade, Bosh, etc. were available and a risky Amare (who nobody else wanted to sign for 5 years) and a perpetually overweight Felton was all we could land. So there isn't much to lead me to believe we would have landed better players than Melo in free agency with all of this cap space. Especially after Amare started breaking down.Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:You gotta give me names not hypotheticals. Who do you think we realistically could've obtained?Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I don't think anyone left here hates Melo. At a salary commensurate with his production, I'd actually love to have him here. I realized that wouldn't happen and wanted him traded though.When analyzing the cost of Melo, you have to look at how much we could have gotten instead for those young players on rookie contracts and have to consider the picks and 200 mil in salary room we've given up.
And considering how people overrate how much big time free agents want to come to NY, you can't count on anyone better coming here via free agency. Dallas has had one of the best situations in the NBA: superstar franchise player in his prime, great owner, great environment, great city, winning teams and could never land a big time free agent.
I've been giving names over the past 5 years. There's no reason a fan who doesn't do this for a living should have to come up with a comprehensive list though. And I'm not stuck on only one person replacing Melo. I've indicated who I'd be looking to hire to make these kinds of decisions. Plenty of metrics and common sense would indicate Melo was not worth the largest contract on the planet. Now if you want to argue our management was not competent enough to build a situation that attracts good FAS, you're probably right. (Overpaying for Melo twice was just a symptom of many problems and we probably would have overpaid for someone else instead.) But that takes the conversation in a much broader direction.
I just don't think there's much tangible evidence that we would've been better not acquiring Melo unless part of your thought process is keeping our picks and a boatload of mediocre players would've resulted in worse winning records and would've yielded a franchise player in the draft, which is somewhat dubious.
You have to build a desirable situation first. Then FAs come.Since Melo came, the Knicks have signed as free agents:
Tyson Chandler
JR Smith
Jason Kidd
Rasheed Wallace
Kurt Thomas
Arron Afflalo
Robin Lopez
Derrick Williams
Joakim Noah
Courtney Lee
Brandon Jennings
Mindagaus Kuzminskas
Lance Thomas took less to re-signThose are all desireable players other teams wanted. Seems FA are not exactly staying away
I meant, you want to get good FAs on good contracts, not just by badly outbidding everyone else.
Courtney Lee took far less than he could've gotten elsewhere to sign with the Knicks. Noah was offered more by the Wizards than he took from the Knicks.
When we traded Robin Lopez, everyone said it was such a bad trade because he was on such a good contract.
JR Smith took far below market value to stay with the Knicks.
Tyson Chandler even had a similar offer from the Warriors in 2011 and chose the Knicks.
Amar'e was overpaid, but that was pre-Melo, which only proves the point.
So, in summary, ...what?
crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, but think about it, we cleared the deck for the great free agent class when Lebron, Wade, Bosh, etc. were available and a risky Amare (who nobody else wanted to sign for 5 years) and a perpetually overweight Felton was all we could land. So there isn't much to lead me to believe we would have landed better players than Melo in free agency with all of this cap space. Especially after Amare started breaking down.Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:You gotta give me names not hypotheticals. Who do you think we realistically could've obtained?Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I don't think anyone left here hates Melo. At a salary commensurate with his production, I'd actually love to have him here. I realized that wouldn't happen and wanted him traded though.When analyzing the cost of Melo, you have to look at how much we could have gotten instead for those young players on rookie contracts and have to consider the picks and 200 mil in salary room we've given up.
And considering how people overrate how much big time free agents want to come to NY, you can't count on anyone better coming here via free agency. Dallas has had one of the best situations in the NBA: superstar franchise player in his prime, great owner, great environment, great city, winning teams and could never land a big time free agent.
I've been giving names over the past 5 years. There's no reason a fan who doesn't do this for a living should have to come up with a comprehensive list though. And I'm not stuck on only one person replacing Melo. I've indicated who I'd be looking to hire to make these kinds of decisions. Plenty of metrics and common sense would indicate Melo was not worth the largest contract on the planet. Now if you want to argue our management was not competent enough to build a situation that attracts good FAS, you're probably right. (Overpaying for Melo twice was just a symptom of many problems and we probably would have overpaid for someone else instead.) But that takes the conversation in a much broader direction.
I just don't think there's much tangible evidence that we would've been better not acquiring Melo unless part of your thought process is keeping our picks and a boatload of mediocre players would've resulted in worse winning records and would've yielded a franchise player in the draft, which is somewhat dubious.
You have to build a desirable situation first. Then FAs come.Since Melo came, the Knicks have signed as free agents:
Tyson Chandler
JR Smith
Jason Kidd
Rasheed Wallace
Kurt Thomas
Arron Afflalo
Robin Lopez
Derrick Williams
Joakim Noah
Courtney Lee
Brandon Jennings
Mindagaus Kuzminskas
Lance Thomas took less to re-signThose are all desireable players other teams wanted. Seems FA are not exactly staying away
I meant, you want to get good FAs on good contracts, not just by badly outbidding everyone else.Courtney Lee took far less than he could've gotten elsewhere to sign with the Knicks. Noah was offered more by the Wizards than he took from the Knicks.
When we traded Robin Lopez, everyone said it was such a bad trade because he was on such a good contract.
JR Smith took far below market value to stay with the Knicks.
Tyson Chandler even had a similar offer from the Warriors in 2011 and chose the Knicks.
Amar'e was overpaid, but that was pre-Melo, which only proves the point.
So, in summary, ...what?
We could go through each player individually but the cliffs notes version is that we're going to disagree on which of those players in that list are "good FAs" and which were not overpaid. (Overpaying would have been a better word than outbidding.)
Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, but think about it, we cleared the deck for the great free agent class when Lebron, Wade, Bosh, etc. were available and a risky Amare (who nobody else wanted to sign for 5 years) and a perpetually overweight Felton was all we could land. So there isn't much to lead me to believe we would have landed better players than Melo in free agency with all of this cap space. Especially after Amare started breaking down.Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:You gotta give me names not hypotheticals. Who do you think we realistically could've obtained?Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I don't think anyone left here hates Melo. At a salary commensurate with his production, I'd actually love to have him here. I realized that wouldn't happen and wanted him traded though.When analyzing the cost of Melo, you have to look at how much we could have gotten instead for those young players on rookie contracts and have to consider the picks and 200 mil in salary room we've given up.
And considering how people overrate how much big time free agents want to come to NY, you can't count on anyone better coming here via free agency. Dallas has had one of the best situations in the NBA: superstar franchise player in his prime, great owner, great environment, great city, winning teams and could never land a big time free agent.
I've been giving names over the past 5 years. There's no reason a fan who doesn't do this for a living should have to come up with a comprehensive list though. And I'm not stuck on only one person replacing Melo. I've indicated who I'd be looking to hire to make these kinds of decisions. Plenty of metrics and common sense would indicate Melo was not worth the largest contract on the planet. Now if you want to argue our management was not competent enough to build a situation that attracts good FAS, you're probably right. (Overpaying for Melo twice was just a symptom of many problems and we probably would have overpaid for someone else instead.) But that takes the conversation in a much broader direction.
I just don't think there's much tangible evidence that we would've been better not acquiring Melo unless part of your thought process is keeping our picks and a boatload of mediocre players would've resulted in worse winning records and would've yielded a franchise player in the draft, which is somewhat dubious.
You have to build a desirable situation first. Then FAs come.Since Melo came, the Knicks have signed as free agents:
Tyson Chandler
JR Smith
Jason Kidd
Rasheed Wallace
Kurt Thomas
Arron Afflalo
Robin Lopez
Derrick Williams
Joakim Noah
Courtney Lee
Brandon Jennings
Mindagaus Kuzminskas
Lance Thomas took less to re-signThose are all desireable players other teams wanted. Seems FA are not exactly staying away
I meant, you want to get good FAs on good contracts, not just by badly outbidding everyone else.Courtney Lee took far less than he could've gotten elsewhere to sign with the Knicks. Noah was offered more by the Wizards than he took from the Knicks.
When we traded Robin Lopez, everyone said it was such a bad trade because he was on such a good contract.
JR Smith took far below market value to stay with the Knicks.
Tyson Chandler even had a similar offer from the Warriors in 2011 and chose the Knicks.
Amar'e was overpaid, but that was pre-Melo, which only proves the point.
So, in summary, ...what?
We could go through each player individually but the cliffs notes version is that we're going to disagree on which of those players in that list are "good FAs" and which were not overpaid. (Overpaying would have been a better word than outbidding.)
So, they're paying less than other teams offered, but it's still an overpay? Ok.
crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, but think about it, we cleared the deck for the great free agent class when Lebron, Wade, Bosh, etc. were available and a risky Amare (who nobody else wanted to sign for 5 years) and a perpetually overweight Felton was all we could land. So there isn't much to lead me to believe we would have landed better players than Melo in free agency with all of this cap space. Especially after Amare started breaking down.Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:You gotta give me names not hypotheticals. Who do you think we realistically could've obtained?Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I don't think anyone left here hates Melo. At a salary commensurate with his production, I'd actually love to have him here. I realized that wouldn't happen and wanted him traded though.When analyzing the cost of Melo, you have to look at how much we could have gotten instead for those young players on rookie contracts and have to consider the picks and 200 mil in salary room we've given up.
And considering how people overrate how much big time free agents want to come to NY, you can't count on anyone better coming here via free agency. Dallas has had one of the best situations in the NBA: superstar franchise player in his prime, great owner, great environment, great city, winning teams and could never land a big time free agent.
I've been giving names over the past 5 years. There's no reason a fan who doesn't do this for a living should have to come up with a comprehensive list though. And I'm not stuck on only one person replacing Melo. I've indicated who I'd be looking to hire to make these kinds of decisions. Plenty of metrics and common sense would indicate Melo was not worth the largest contract on the planet. Now if you want to argue our management was not competent enough to build a situation that attracts good FAS, you're probably right. (Overpaying for Melo twice was just a symptom of many problems and we probably would have overpaid for someone else instead.) But that takes the conversation in a much broader direction.
I just don't think there's much tangible evidence that we would've been better not acquiring Melo unless part of your thought process is keeping our picks and a boatload of mediocre players would've resulted in worse winning records and would've yielded a franchise player in the draft, which is somewhat dubious.
You have to build a desirable situation first. Then FAs come.Since Melo came, the Knicks have signed as free agents:
Tyson Chandler
JR Smith
Jason Kidd
Rasheed Wallace
Kurt Thomas
Arron Afflalo
Robin Lopez
Derrick Williams
Joakim Noah
Courtney Lee
Brandon Jennings
Mindagaus Kuzminskas
Lance Thomas took less to re-signThose are all desireable players other teams wanted. Seems FA are not exactly staying away
I meant, you want to get good FAs on good contracts, not just by badly outbidding everyone else.Courtney Lee took far less than he could've gotten elsewhere to sign with the Knicks. Noah was offered more by the Wizards than he took from the Knicks.
When we traded Robin Lopez, everyone said it was such a bad trade because he was on such a good contract.
JR Smith took far below market value to stay with the Knicks.
Tyson Chandler even had a similar offer from the Warriors in 2011 and chose the Knicks.
Amar'e was overpaid, but that was pre-Melo, which only proves the point.
So, in summary, ...what?
We could go through each player individually but the cliffs notes version is that we're going to disagree on which of those players in that list are "good FAs" and which were not overpaid. (Overpaying would have been a better word than outbidding.)So, they're paying less than other teams offered, but it's still an overpay? Ok.
Just because another owner is willing to give a similar contract doesn't mean you're getting a good deal. If you think Melo is a great player and we've attracted very good players on good contracts, then you must be really perplexed by our teams' records.
Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, but think about it, we cleared the deck for the great free agent class when Lebron, Wade, Bosh, etc. were available and a risky Amare (who nobody else wanted to sign for 5 years) and a perpetually overweight Felton was all we could land. So there isn't much to lead me to believe we would have landed better players than Melo in free agency with all of this cap space. Especially after Amare started breaking down.Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:You gotta give me names not hypotheticals. Who do you think we realistically could've obtained?Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I don't think anyone left here hates Melo. At a salary commensurate with his production, I'd actually love to have him here. I realized that wouldn't happen and wanted him traded though.When analyzing the cost of Melo, you have to look at how much we could have gotten instead for those young players on rookie contracts and have to consider the picks and 200 mil in salary room we've given up.
And considering how people overrate how much big time free agents want to come to NY, you can't count on anyone better coming here via free agency. Dallas has had one of the best situations in the NBA: superstar franchise player in his prime, great owner, great environment, great city, winning teams and could never land a big time free agent.
I've been giving names over the past 5 years. There's no reason a fan who doesn't do this for a living should have to come up with a comprehensive list though. And I'm not stuck on only one person replacing Melo. I've indicated who I'd be looking to hire to make these kinds of decisions. Plenty of metrics and common sense would indicate Melo was not worth the largest contract on the planet. Now if you want to argue our management was not competent enough to build a situation that attracts good FAS, you're probably right. (Overpaying for Melo twice was just a symptom of many problems and we probably would have overpaid for someone else instead.) But that takes the conversation in a much broader direction.
I just don't think there's much tangible evidence that we would've been better not acquiring Melo unless part of your thought process is keeping our picks and a boatload of mediocre players would've resulted in worse winning records and would've yielded a franchise player in the draft, which is somewhat dubious.
You have to build a desirable situation first. Then FAs come.Since Melo came, the Knicks have signed as free agents:
Tyson Chandler
JR Smith
Jason Kidd
Rasheed Wallace
Kurt Thomas
Arron Afflalo
Robin Lopez
Derrick Williams
Joakim Noah
Courtney Lee
Brandon Jennings
Mindagaus Kuzminskas
Lance Thomas took less to re-signThose are all desireable players other teams wanted. Seems FA are not exactly staying away
I meant, you want to get good FAs on good contracts, not just by badly outbidding everyone else.Courtney Lee took far less than he could've gotten elsewhere to sign with the Knicks. Noah was offered more by the Wizards than he took from the Knicks.
When we traded Robin Lopez, everyone said it was such a bad trade because he was on such a good contract.
JR Smith took far below market value to stay with the Knicks.
Tyson Chandler even had a similar offer from the Warriors in 2011 and chose the Knicks.
Amar'e was overpaid, but that was pre-Melo, which only proves the point.
So, in summary, ...what?
We could go through each player individually but the cliffs notes version is that we're going to disagree on which of those players in that list are "good FAs" and which were not overpaid. (Overpaying would have been a better word than outbidding.)So, they're paying less than other teams offered, but it's still an overpay? Ok.
Just because another idiot is willing to pay more doesn't mean you're getting a good deal. If you think Melo is a great player and we've attracted very good players on good contracts, then you must be really perplexed by our teams' records.
No, I'm perplexed by your posts. The Knicks stopped making the playoffs because of a terrible trade for Bargnani and a Tyson Chandler injury. Then Phil blew it up. Just to refresh your memory.
crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, but think about it, we cleared the deck for the great free agent class when Lebron, Wade, Bosh, etc. were available and a risky Amare (who nobody else wanted to sign for 5 years) and a perpetually overweight Felton was all we could land. So there isn't much to lead me to believe we would have landed better players than Melo in free agency with all of this cap space. Especially after Amare started breaking down.Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:You gotta give me names not hypotheticals. Who do you think we realistically could've obtained?Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I don't think anyone left here hates Melo. At a salary commensurate with his production, I'd actually love to have him here. I realized that wouldn't happen and wanted him traded though.When analyzing the cost of Melo, you have to look at how much we could have gotten instead for those young players on rookie contracts and have to consider the picks and 200 mil in salary room we've given up.
And considering how people overrate how much big time free agents want to come to NY, you can't count on anyone better coming here via free agency. Dallas has had one of the best situations in the NBA: superstar franchise player in his prime, great owner, great environment, great city, winning teams and could never land a big time free agent.
I've been giving names over the past 5 years. There's no reason a fan who doesn't do this for a living should have to come up with a comprehensive list though. And I'm not stuck on only one person replacing Melo. I've indicated who I'd be looking to hire to make these kinds of decisions. Plenty of metrics and common sense would indicate Melo was not worth the largest contract on the planet. Now if you want to argue our management was not competent enough to build a situation that attracts good FAS, you're probably right. (Overpaying for Melo twice was just a symptom of many problems and we probably would have overpaid for someone else instead.) But that takes the conversation in a much broader direction.
I just don't think there's much tangible evidence that we would've been better not acquiring Melo unless part of your thought process is keeping our picks and a boatload of mediocre players would've resulted in worse winning records and would've yielded a franchise player in the draft, which is somewhat dubious.
You have to build a desirable situation first. Then FAs come.Since Melo came, the Knicks have signed as free agents:
Tyson Chandler
JR Smith
Jason Kidd
Rasheed Wallace
Kurt Thomas
Arron Afflalo
Robin Lopez
Derrick Williams
Joakim Noah
Courtney Lee
Brandon Jennings
Mindagaus Kuzminskas
Lance Thomas took less to re-signThose are all desireable players other teams wanted. Seems FA are not exactly staying away
I meant, you want to get good FAs on good contracts, not just by badly outbidding everyone else.Courtney Lee took far less than he could've gotten elsewhere to sign with the Knicks. Noah was offered more by the Wizards than he took from the Knicks.
When we traded Robin Lopez, everyone said it was such a bad trade because he was on such a good contract.
JR Smith took far below market value to stay with the Knicks.
Tyson Chandler even had a similar offer from the Warriors in 2011 and chose the Knicks.
Amar'e was overpaid, but that was pre-Melo, which only proves the point.
So, in summary, ...what?
We could go through each player individually but the cliffs notes version is that we're going to disagree on which of those players in that list are "good FAs" and which were not overpaid. (Overpaying would have been a better word than outbidding.)So, they're paying less than other teams offered, but it's still an overpay? Ok.
Just because another idiot is willing to pay more doesn't mean you're getting a good deal. If you think Melo is a great player and we've attracted very good players on good contracts, then you must be really perplexed by our teams' records.No, I'm perplexed by your posts. The Knicks stopped making the playoffs because of a terrible trade for Bargnani and a Tyson Chandler injury. Then Phil blew it up. Just to refresh your memory.
Wow, our views are so far apart I wouldn't even know where to begin. I'd say the Knicks have been bad nearly all of the century (and during most of the Melo era) because they've overpaid in most of their transactions. It's not one or two transactions. It's 90 plus percent of the transactions. Look at the payrolls of the Warriors, Spurs, or Cavs, for example. Those are organizations that (with rare exceptions) have had players on excellent deals.
Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, but think about it, we cleared the deck for the great free agent class when Lebron, Wade, Bosh, etc. were available and a risky Amare (who nobody else wanted to sign for 5 years) and a perpetually overweight Felton was all we could land. So there isn't much to lead me to believe we would have landed better players than Melo in free agency with all of this cap space. Especially after Amare started breaking down.Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:You gotta give me names not hypotheticals. Who do you think we realistically could've obtained?Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I don't think anyone left here hates Melo. At a salary commensurate with his production, I'd actually love to have him here. I realized that wouldn't happen and wanted him traded though.When analyzing the cost of Melo, you have to look at how much we could have gotten instead for those young players on rookie contracts and have to consider the picks and 200 mil in salary room we've given up.
And considering how people overrate how much big time free agents want to come to NY, you can't count on anyone better coming here via free agency. Dallas has had one of the best situations in the NBA: superstar franchise player in his prime, great owner, great environment, great city, winning teams and could never land a big time free agent.
I've been giving names over the past 5 years. There's no reason a fan who doesn't do this for a living should have to come up with a comprehensive list though. And I'm not stuck on only one person replacing Melo. I've indicated who I'd be looking to hire to make these kinds of decisions. Plenty of metrics and common sense would indicate Melo was not worth the largest contract on the planet. Now if you want to argue our management was not competent enough to build a situation that attracts good FAS, you're probably right. (Overpaying for Melo twice was just a symptom of many problems and we probably would have overpaid for someone else instead.) But that takes the conversation in a much broader direction.
I just don't think there's much tangible evidence that we would've been better not acquiring Melo unless part of your thought process is keeping our picks and a boatload of mediocre players would've resulted in worse winning records and would've yielded a franchise player in the draft, which is somewhat dubious.
You have to build a desirable situation first. Then FAs come.Since Melo came, the Knicks have signed as free agents:
Tyson Chandler
JR Smith
Jason Kidd
Rasheed Wallace
Kurt Thomas
Arron Afflalo
Robin Lopez
Derrick Williams
Joakim Noah
Courtney Lee
Brandon Jennings
Mindagaus Kuzminskas
Lance Thomas took less to re-signThose are all desireable players other teams wanted. Seems FA are not exactly staying away
I meant, you want to get good FAs on good contracts, not just by badly outbidding everyone else.Courtney Lee took far less than he could've gotten elsewhere to sign with the Knicks. Noah was offered more by the Wizards than he took from the Knicks.
When we traded Robin Lopez, everyone said it was such a bad trade because he was on such a good contract.
JR Smith took far below market value to stay with the Knicks.
Tyson Chandler even had a similar offer from the Warriors in 2011 and chose the Knicks.
Amar'e was overpaid, but that was pre-Melo, which only proves the point.
So, in summary, ...what?
We could go through each player individually but the cliffs notes version is that we're going to disagree on which of those players in that list are "good FAs" and which were not overpaid. (Overpaying would have been a better word than outbidding.)So, they're paying less than other teams offered, but it's still an overpay? Ok.
Just because another idiot is willing to pay more doesn't mean you're getting a good deal. If you think Melo is a great player and we've attracted very good players on good contracts, then you must be really perplexed by our teams' records.No, I'm perplexed by your posts. The Knicks stopped making the playoffs because of a terrible trade for Bargnani and a Tyson Chandler injury. Then Phil blew it up. Just to refresh your memory.
Wow, our views are so far apart I wouldn't even know where to begin. I'd say the Knicks have been bad nearly all of the century (and during most of the Melo era) because they've overpaid in most of their transactions. It's not one or two transactions. It's 90 plus percent of the transactions. Look at the payrolls of the Warriors, Spurs, or Cavs, for example. Those are organizations that (with rare exceptions) have had players on excellent deals.
Well that's because their best players are home grown and thus cheaper..
Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, but think about it, we cleared the deck for the great free agent class when Lebron, Wade, Bosh, etc. were available and a risky Amare (who nobody else wanted to sign for 5 years) and a perpetually overweight Felton was all we could land. So there isn't much to lead me to believe we would have landed better players than Melo in free agency with all of this cap space. Especially after Amare started breaking down.Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:You gotta give me names not hypotheticals. Who do you think we realistically could've obtained?Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I don't think anyone left here hates Melo. At a salary commensurate with his production, I'd actually love to have him here. I realized that wouldn't happen and wanted him traded though.When analyzing the cost of Melo, you have to look at how much we could have gotten instead for those young players on rookie contracts and have to consider the picks and 200 mil in salary room we've given up.
And considering how people overrate how much big time free agents want to come to NY, you can't count on anyone better coming here via free agency. Dallas has had one of the best situations in the NBA: superstar franchise player in his prime, great owner, great environment, great city, winning teams and could never land a big time free agent.
I've been giving names over the past 5 years. There's no reason a fan who doesn't do this for a living should have to come up with a comprehensive list though. And I'm not stuck on only one person replacing Melo. I've indicated who I'd be looking to hire to make these kinds of decisions. Plenty of metrics and common sense would indicate Melo was not worth the largest contract on the planet. Now if you want to argue our management was not competent enough to build a situation that attracts good FAS, you're probably right. (Overpaying for Melo twice was just a symptom of many problems and we probably would have overpaid for someone else instead.) But that takes the conversation in a much broader direction.
I just don't think there's much tangible evidence that we would've been better not acquiring Melo unless part of your thought process is keeping our picks and a boatload of mediocre players would've resulted in worse winning records and would've yielded a franchise player in the draft, which is somewhat dubious.
You have to build a desirable situation first. Then FAs come.Since Melo came, the Knicks have signed as free agents:
Tyson Chandler
JR Smith
Jason Kidd
Rasheed Wallace
Kurt Thomas
Arron Afflalo
Robin Lopez
Derrick Williams
Joakim Noah
Courtney Lee
Brandon Jennings
Mindagaus Kuzminskas
Lance Thomas took less to re-signThose are all desireable players other teams wanted. Seems FA are not exactly staying away
I meant, you want to get good FAs on good contracts, not just by badly outbidding everyone else.Courtney Lee took far less than he could've gotten elsewhere to sign with the Knicks. Noah was offered more by the Wizards than he took from the Knicks.
When we traded Robin Lopez, everyone said it was such a bad trade because he was on such a good contract.
JR Smith took far below market value to stay with the Knicks.
Tyson Chandler even had a similar offer from the Warriors in 2011 and chose the Knicks.
Amar'e was overpaid, but that was pre-Melo, which only proves the point.
So, in summary, ...what?
We could go through each player individually but the cliffs notes version is that we're going to disagree on which of those players in that list are "good FAs" and which were not overpaid. (Overpaying would have been a better word than outbidding.)So, they're paying less than other teams offered, but it's still an overpay? Ok.
Just because another idiot is willing to pay more doesn't mean you're getting a good deal. If you think Melo is a great player and we've attracted very good players on good contracts, then you must be really perplexed by our teams' records.No, I'm perplexed by your posts. The Knicks stopped making the playoffs because of a terrible trade for Bargnani and a Tyson Chandler injury. Then Phil blew it up. Just to refresh your memory.
Wow, our views are so far apart I wouldn't even know where to begin. I'd say the Knicks have been bad nearly all of the century (and during most of the Melo era) because they've overpaid in most of their transactions. It's not one or two transactions. It's 90 plus percent of the transactions. Look at the payrolls of the Warriors, Spurs, or Cavs, for example. Those are organizations that (with rare exceptions) have had players on excellent deals.
I thought we were talking about Melo's impact on Free Agent signings? Not the entire century.
crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, but think about it, we cleared the deck for the great free agent class when Lebron, Wade, Bosh, etc. were available and a risky Amare (who nobody else wanted to sign for 5 years) and a perpetually overweight Felton was all we could land. So there isn't much to lead me to believe we would have landed better players than Melo in free agency with all of this cap space. Especially after Amare started breaking down.Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:You gotta give me names not hypotheticals. Who do you think we realistically could've obtained?Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I don't think anyone left here hates Melo. At a salary commensurate with his production, I'd actually love to have him here. I realized that wouldn't happen and wanted him traded though.When analyzing the cost of Melo, you have to look at how much we could have gotten instead for those young players on rookie contracts and have to consider the picks and 200 mil in salary room we've given up.
And considering how people overrate how much big time free agents want to come to NY, you can't count on anyone better coming here via free agency. Dallas has had one of the best situations in the NBA: superstar franchise player in his prime, great owner, great environment, great city, winning teams and could never land a big time free agent.
I've been giving names over the past 5 years. There's no reason a fan who doesn't do this for a living should have to come up with a comprehensive list though. And I'm not stuck on only one person replacing Melo. I've indicated who I'd be looking to hire to make these kinds of decisions. Plenty of metrics and common sense would indicate Melo was not worth the largest contract on the planet. Now if you want to argue our management was not competent enough to build a situation that attracts good FAS, you're probably right. (Overpaying for Melo twice was just a symptom of many problems and we probably would have overpaid for someone else instead.) But that takes the conversation in a much broader direction.
I just don't think there's much tangible evidence that we would've been better not acquiring Melo unless part of your thought process is keeping our picks and a boatload of mediocre players would've resulted in worse winning records and would've yielded a franchise player in the draft, which is somewhat dubious.
You have to build a desirable situation first. Then FAs come.Since Melo came, the Knicks have signed as free agents:
Tyson Chandler
JR Smith
Jason Kidd
Rasheed Wallace
Kurt Thomas
Arron Afflalo
Robin Lopez
Derrick Williams
Joakim Noah
Courtney Lee
Brandon Jennings
Mindagaus Kuzminskas
Lance Thomas took less to re-signThose are all desireable players other teams wanted. Seems FA are not exactly staying away
I meant, you want to get good FAs on good contracts, not just by badly outbidding everyone else.Courtney Lee took far less than he could've gotten elsewhere to sign with the Knicks. Noah was offered more by the Wizards than he took from the Knicks.
When we traded Robin Lopez, everyone said it was such a bad trade because he was on such a good contract.
JR Smith took far below market value to stay with the Knicks.
Tyson Chandler even had a similar offer from the Warriors in 2011 and chose the Knicks.
Amar'e was overpaid, but that was pre-Melo, which only proves the point.
So, in summary, ...what?
We could go through each player individually but the cliffs notes version is that we're going to disagree on which of those players in that list are "good FAs" and which were not overpaid. (Overpaying would have been a better word than outbidding.)So, they're paying less than other teams offered, but it's still an overpay? Ok.
Just because another idiot is willing to pay more doesn't mean you're getting a good deal. If you think Melo is a great player and we've attracted very good players on good contracts, then you must be really perplexed by our teams' records.No, I'm perplexed by your posts. The Knicks stopped making the playoffs because of a terrible trade for Bargnani and a Tyson Chandler injury. Then Phil blew it up. Just to refresh your memory.
Wow, our views are so far apart I wouldn't even know where to begin. I'd say the Knicks have been bad nearly all of the century (and during most of the Melo era) because they've overpaid in most of their transactions. It's not one or two transactions. It's 90 plus percent of the transactions. Look at the payrolls of the Warriors, Spurs, or Cavs, for example. Those are organizations that (with rare exceptions) have had players on excellent deals.I thought we were talking about Melo's impact on Free Agent signings? Not the entire century.
Melo's negative impact extends beyond all borders of space and monetary boundaries...
Overpaying for free agents in New York. Of all places. How in the world would that ever happen?
crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, but think about it, we cleared the deck for the great free agent class when Lebron, Wade, Bosh, etc. were available and a risky Amare (who nobody else wanted to sign for 5 years) and a perpetually overweight Felton was all we could land. So there isn't much to lead me to believe we would have landed better players than Melo in free agency with all of this cap space. Especially after Amare started breaking down.Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:You gotta give me names not hypotheticals. Who do you think we realistically could've obtained?Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I don't think anyone left here hates Melo. At a salary commensurate with his production, I'd actually love to have him here. I realized that wouldn't happen and wanted him traded though.When analyzing the cost of Melo, you have to look at how much we could have gotten instead for those young players on rookie contracts and have to consider the picks and 200 mil in salary room we've given up.
And considering how people overrate how much big time free agents want to come to NY, you can't count on anyone better coming here via free agency. Dallas has had one of the best situations in the NBA: superstar franchise player in his prime, great owner, great environment, great city, winning teams and could never land a big time free agent.
I've been giving names over the past 5 years. There's no reason a fan who doesn't do this for a living should have to come up with a comprehensive list though. And I'm not stuck on only one person replacing Melo. I've indicated who I'd be looking to hire to make these kinds of decisions. Plenty of metrics and common sense would indicate Melo was not worth the largest contract on the planet. Now if you want to argue our management was not competent enough to build a situation that attracts good FAS, you're probably right. (Overpaying for Melo twice was just a symptom of many problems and we probably would have overpaid for someone else instead.) But that takes the conversation in a much broader direction.
I just don't think there's much tangible evidence that we would've been better not acquiring Melo unless part of your thought process is keeping our picks and a boatload of mediocre players would've resulted in worse winning records and would've yielded a franchise player in the draft, which is somewhat dubious.
You have to build a desirable situation first. Then FAs come.Since Melo came, the Knicks have signed as free agents:
Tyson Chandler
JR Smith
Jason Kidd
Rasheed Wallace
Kurt Thomas
Arron Afflalo
Robin Lopez
Derrick Williams
Joakim Noah
Courtney Lee
Brandon Jennings
Mindagaus Kuzminskas
Lance Thomas took less to re-signThose are all desireable players other teams wanted. Seems FA are not exactly staying away
I meant, you want to get good FAs on good contracts, not just by badly outbidding everyone else.Courtney Lee took far less than he could've gotten elsewhere to sign with the Knicks. Noah was offered more by the Wizards than he took from the Knicks.
When we traded Robin Lopez, everyone said it was such a bad trade because he was on such a good contract.
JR Smith took far below market value to stay with the Knicks.
Tyson Chandler even had a similar offer from the Warriors in 2011 and chose the Knicks.
Amar'e was overpaid, but that was pre-Melo, which only proves the point.
So, in summary, ...what?
We could go through each player individually but the cliffs notes version is that we're going to disagree on which of those players in that list are "good FAs" and which were not overpaid. (Overpaying would have been a better word than outbidding.)So, they're paying less than other teams offered, but it's still an overpay? Ok.
Just because another idiot is willing to pay more doesn't mean you're getting a good deal. If you think Melo is a great player and we've attracted very good players on good contracts, then you must be really perplexed by our teams' records.No, I'm perplexed by your posts. The Knicks stopped making the playoffs because of a terrible trade for Bargnani and a Tyson Chandler injury. Then Phil blew it up. Just to refresh your memory.
Wow, our views are so far apart I wouldn't even know where to begin. I'd say the Knicks have been bad nearly all of the century (and during most of the Melo era) because they've overpaid in most of their transactions. It's not one or two transactions. It's 90 plus percent of the transactions. Look at the payrolls of the Warriors, Spurs, or Cavs, for example. Those are organizations that (with rare exceptions) have had players on excellent deals.I thought we were talking about Melo's impact on Free Agent signings? Not the entire century.
The point was the Melo trade and then contract are just examples of the overpaying that far predated him. They're not the main problem. They're just symptoms of it.
crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, but think about it, we cleared the deck for the great free agent class when Lebron, Wade, Bosh, etc. were available and a risky Amare (who nobody else wanted to sign for 5 years) and a perpetually overweight Felton was all we could land. So there isn't much to lead me to believe we would have landed better players than Melo in free agency with all of this cap space. Especially after Amare started breaking down.Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:You gotta give me names not hypotheticals. Who do you think we realistically could've obtained?Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I don't think anyone left here hates Melo. At a salary commensurate with his production, I'd actually love to have him here. I realized that wouldn't happen and wanted him traded though.When analyzing the cost of Melo, you have to look at how much we could have gotten instead for those young players on rookie contracts and have to consider the picks and 200 mil in salary room we've given up.
And considering how people overrate how much big time free agents want to come to NY, you can't count on anyone better coming here via free agency. Dallas has had one of the best situations in the NBA: superstar franchise player in his prime, great owner, great environment, great city, winning teams and could never land a big time free agent.
I've been giving names over the past 5 years. There's no reason a fan who doesn't do this for a living should have to come up with a comprehensive list though. And I'm not stuck on only one person replacing Melo. I've indicated who I'd be looking to hire to make these kinds of decisions. Plenty of metrics and common sense would indicate Melo was not worth the largest contract on the planet. Now if you want to argue our management was not competent enough to build a situation that attracts good FAS, you're probably right. (Overpaying for Melo twice was just a symptom of many problems and we probably would have overpaid for someone else instead.) But that takes the conversation in a much broader direction.
I just don't think there's much tangible evidence that we would've been better not acquiring Melo unless part of your thought process is keeping our picks and a boatload of mediocre players would've resulted in worse winning records and would've yielded a franchise player in the draft, which is somewhat dubious.
You have to build a desirable situation first. Then FAs come.Since Melo came, the Knicks have signed as free agents:
Tyson Chandler
JR Smith
Jason Kidd
Rasheed Wallace
Kurt Thomas
Arron Afflalo
Robin Lopez
Derrick Williams
Joakim Noah
Courtney Lee
Brandon Jennings
Mindagaus Kuzminskas
Lance Thomas took less to re-signThose are all desireable players other teams wanted. Seems FA are not exactly staying away
I meant, you want to get good FAs on good contracts, not just by badly outbidding everyone else.Courtney Lee took far less than he could've gotten elsewhere to sign with the Knicks. Noah was offered more by the Wizards than he took from the Knicks.
When we traded Robin Lopez, everyone said it was such a bad trade because he was on such a good contract.
JR Smith took far below market value to stay with the Knicks.
Tyson Chandler even had a similar offer from the Warriors in 2011 and chose the Knicks.
Amar'e was overpaid, but that was pre-Melo, which only proves the point.
So, in summary, ...what?
We could go through each player individually but the cliffs notes version is that we're going to disagree on which of those players in that list are "good FAs" and which were not overpaid. (Overpaying would have been a better word than outbidding.)So, they're paying less than other teams offered, but it's still an overpay? Ok.
Your being way too logical and informed. Lol. Melo hate will always counter with it was Melo's fault for the Denver trade. Cuz the GM and Dolan should had no responsibility to be better negotiators and realized NY was only place Melo wanted to go to. Then the haters will bring up how much we gave up. Because all those players went on to be All Stars. Plus he left us decimated. But they expected him to win with the decimated crew. But what about extinguisher punching, knee absent STAT? LBJ, Duncan, Curry, Blake, Wade etc would have won with such a great sidekick. Your right, its funny how everyone knew we were blowing the team and tanking....except Melo haters, who still demanded him to win. A mive which btw got us KP.
As for free agents, if not for Melo they were lined up to play for a blown up team with a rookie coach and, oh yes, the free flowing, talent showcasing Triangle. Think a better question is why the Fuck would an All star like Melo stay with such a dysfunctional organazation? Probably the money, cuz that's hard to get in this budget pinching NBA.
HofstraBBall wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, but think about it, we cleared the deck for the great free agent class when Lebron, Wade, Bosh, etc. were available and a risky Amare (who nobody else wanted to sign for 5 years) and a perpetually overweight Felton was all we could land. So there isn't much to lead me to believe we would have landed better players than Melo in free agency with all of this cap space. Especially after Amare started breaking down.Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:You gotta give me names not hypotheticals. Who do you think we realistically could've obtained?Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I don't think anyone left here hates Melo. At a salary commensurate with his production, I'd actually love to have him here. I realized that wouldn't happen and wanted him traded though.When analyzing the cost of Melo, you have to look at how much we could have gotten instead for those young players on rookie contracts and have to consider the picks and 200 mil in salary room we've given up.
And considering how people overrate how much big time free agents want to come to NY, you can't count on anyone better coming here via free agency. Dallas has had one of the best situations in the NBA: superstar franchise player in his prime, great owner, great environment, great city, winning teams and could never land a big time free agent.
I've been giving names over the past 5 years. There's no reason a fan who doesn't do this for a living should have to come up with a comprehensive list though. And I'm not stuck on only one person replacing Melo. I've indicated who I'd be looking to hire to make these kinds of decisions. Plenty of metrics and common sense would indicate Melo was not worth the largest contract on the planet. Now if you want to argue our management was not competent enough to build a situation that attracts good FAS, you're probably right. (Overpaying for Melo twice was just a symptom of many problems and we probably would have overpaid for someone else instead.) But that takes the conversation in a much broader direction.
I just don't think there's much tangible evidence that we would've been better not acquiring Melo unless part of your thought process is keeping our picks and a boatload of mediocre players would've resulted in worse winning records and would've yielded a franchise player in the draft, which is somewhat dubious.
You have to build a desirable situation first. Then FAs come.Since Melo came, the Knicks have signed as free agents:
Tyson Chandler
JR Smith
Jason Kidd
Rasheed Wallace
Kurt Thomas
Arron Afflalo
Robin Lopez
Derrick Williams
Joakim Noah
Courtney Lee
Brandon Jennings
Mindagaus Kuzminskas
Lance Thomas took less to re-signThose are all desireable players other teams wanted. Seems FA are not exactly staying away
I meant, you want to get good FAs on good contracts, not just by badly outbidding everyone else.Courtney Lee took far less than he could've gotten elsewhere to sign with the Knicks. Noah was offered more by the Wizards than he took from the Knicks.
When we traded Robin Lopez, everyone said it was such a bad trade because he was on such a good contract.
JR Smith took far below market value to stay with the Knicks.
Tyson Chandler even had a similar offer from the Warriors in 2011 and chose the Knicks.
Amar'e was overpaid, but that was pre-Melo, which only proves the point.
So, in summary, ...what?
We could go through each player individually but the cliffs notes version is that we're going to disagree on which of those players in that list are "good FAs" and which were not overpaid. (Overpaying would have been a better word than outbidding.)So, they're paying less than other teams offered, but it's still an overpay? Ok.
Your being way too logical and informed. Lol. Melo hate will always counter with it was Melo's fault for the Denver trade. Cuz the GM and Dolan should had no responsibility to be better negotiators and realized NY was only place Melo wanted to go to. Then the haters will bring up how much we gave up. Because all those players went on to be All Stars. Plus he left us decimated. But they expected him to win with the decimated crew. But what about extinguisher punching, knee absent STAT? LBJ, Duncan, Curry, Blake, Wade etc would have won with such a great sidekick. Your right, its funny how everyone knew we were blowing the team and tanking....except Melo haters, who still demanded him to win. A mive which btw got us KP.As for free agents, if not for Melo they were lined up to play for a blown up team with a rookie coach and, oh yes, the free flowing, talent showcasing Triangle. Think a better question is why the Fuck would an All star like Melo stay with such a dysfunctional organazation? Probably the money, cuz that's hard to get in this budget pinching NBA.
Who here do you think falls into that Melo hate group? I do not think anyone does. Virtually everything you wrote above doesn't reflect my thinking.
Bonn1997 wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, but think about it, we cleared the deck for the great free agent class when Lebron, Wade, Bosh, etc. were available and a risky Amare (who nobody else wanted to sign for 5 years) and a perpetually overweight Felton was all we could land. So there isn't much to lead me to believe we would have landed better players than Melo in free agency with all of this cap space. Especially after Amare started breaking down.Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:You gotta give me names not hypotheticals. Who do you think we realistically could've obtained?Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I don't think anyone left here hates Melo. At a salary commensurate with his production, I'd actually love to have him here. I realized that wouldn't happen and wanted him traded though.When analyzing the cost of Melo, you have to look at how much we could have gotten instead for those young players on rookie contracts and have to consider the picks and 200 mil in salary room we've given up.
And considering how people overrate how much big time free agents want to come to NY, you can't count on anyone better coming here via free agency. Dallas has had one of the best situations in the NBA: superstar franchise player in his prime, great owner, great environment, great city, winning teams and could never land a big time free agent.
I've been giving names over the past 5 years. There's no reason a fan who doesn't do this for a living should have to come up with a comprehensive list though. And I'm not stuck on only one person replacing Melo. I've indicated who I'd be looking to hire to make these kinds of decisions. Plenty of metrics and common sense would indicate Melo was not worth the largest contract on the planet. Now if you want to argue our management was not competent enough to build a situation that attracts good FAS, you're probably right. (Overpaying for Melo twice was just a symptom of many problems and we probably would have overpaid for someone else instead.) But that takes the conversation in a much broader direction.
I just don't think there's much tangible evidence that we would've been better not acquiring Melo unless part of your thought process is keeping our picks and a boatload of mediocre players would've resulted in worse winning records and would've yielded a franchise player in the draft, which is somewhat dubious.
You have to build a desirable situation first. Then FAs come.Since Melo came, the Knicks have signed as free agents:
Tyson Chandler
JR Smith
Jason Kidd
Rasheed Wallace
Kurt Thomas
Arron Afflalo
Robin Lopez
Derrick Williams
Joakim Noah
Courtney Lee
Brandon Jennings
Mindagaus Kuzminskas
Lance Thomas took less to re-signThose are all desireable players other teams wanted. Seems FA are not exactly staying away
I meant, you want to get good FAs on good contracts, not just by badly outbidding everyone else.Courtney Lee took far less than he could've gotten elsewhere to sign with the Knicks. Noah was offered more by the Wizards than he took from the Knicks.
When we traded Robin Lopez, everyone said it was such a bad trade because he was on such a good contract.
JR Smith took far below market value to stay with the Knicks.
Tyson Chandler even had a similar offer from the Warriors in 2011 and chose the Knicks.
Amar'e was overpaid, but that was pre-Melo, which only proves the point.
So, in summary, ...what?
We could go through each player individually but the cliffs notes version is that we're going to disagree on which of those players in that list are "good FAs" and which were not overpaid. (Overpaying would have been a better word than outbidding.)So, they're paying less than other teams offered, but it's still an overpay? Ok.
Your being way too logical and informed. Lol. Melo hate will always counter with it was Melo's fault for the Denver trade. Cuz the GM and Dolan should had no responsibility to be better negotiators and realized NY was only place Melo wanted to go to. Then the haters will bring up how much we gave up. Because all those players went on to be All Stars. Plus he left us decimated. But they expected him to win with the decimated crew. But what about extinguisher punching, knee absent STAT? LBJ, Duncan, Curry, Blake, Wade etc would have won with such a great sidekick. Your right, its funny how everyone knew we were blowing the team and tanking....except Melo haters, who still demanded him to win. A mive which btw got us KP.As for free agents, if not for Melo they were lined up to play for a blown up team with a rookie coach and, oh yes, the free flowing, talent showcasing Triangle. Think a better question is why the Fuck would an All star like Melo stay with such a dysfunctional organazation? Probably the money, cuz that's hard to get in this budget pinching NBA.
Who here do you think falls into that Melo hate group? I do not think anyone does. Virtually everything you wrote above doesn't reflect my thinking.
By "here" do you mean this particular thread, or the UK in general? You can't be serious that you don't think there are any Melohaters on the board.
If not knicks, he would be a Net. He was getting traded.
So the fantasy of "If he waited" was fiction.
And don't think Deron Williams wouldn't have happend. Might not have cost as much as much as what paid for melo, but world of differenece!
jrodmc wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Yeah, but think about it, we cleared the deck for the great free agent class when Lebron, Wade, Bosh, etc. were available and a risky Amare (who nobody else wanted to sign for 5 years) and a perpetually overweight Felton was all we could land. So there isn't much to lead me to believe we would have landed better players than Melo in free agency with all of this cap space. Especially after Amare started breaking down.Welpee wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:You gotta give me names not hypotheticals. Who do you think we realistically could've obtained?Welpee wrote:Nalod wrote:Melo came via trade to play last 26 games. King 3 full seasons, then blew out the knee 6 games in. Both were Knicks at same age.It's all about expectations.
========Games played==========Rebound avg.=============Wins per season=============+++++++++Pt averageMelo----------215====================7.0===================42, 36, 53 Total:131================26.25
King----------208====================5.2===================48, 48, 24 Total:120================26.5
Signature Knick Moments....King:
"He almost single-handely led the Knicks to their first-round series win over the Detroit Pistons in 1984 as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the '84 playoffs as New York reached the Eastern Conference semifinals, where it lost to Boston in seven games.
In 1984-85, King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring (32.9 ppg) and provided a memorable heat wave in the middle of winter.Melo: Led league in scoring! Won a playoff series.
Why do this? I long thought about Kings bloated cred with knick fans which was a wonderful brief run and we tend to think that torrid streak was for his whole knick career. Don't get me wrong, I loved it but we tend to romance it. Melo we tend to do the opposite. Melo has not provided many "Knick" moments largely because we have not played many important games. Much of bernard's were individual efforts. He carried the team on his back and beat detroit nearly single handed! Melo, came to a depleted squad that under achieved. King's first season was a wonderful suprise, while the last a 24 win season.Im not saying we should love on Melo. King came to us undervaled while we payed dearly for Melo. Melo in my view has held up his end of the deal and does what he always did, score points. King had a very inconsistent career with alcohol problems and some small altercations with the law. He was really "coming home" and really stepped up. Thats why we loved him. Melo star was always up for debate, his numbers solid and really had no substance or legal problems.
Very different paths to the knicks, but similar results over all. Expectations played a big part of the legacies.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/team...Before King's arrival we only won 33 games. So expectations weren't that high when he (along with Hubie Brown) lead us to two 2nd round playoff appearances. Plus that historic playoff run he had against Detroit and Boston made him a legend. We essentially traded one head case (Michael Ray Richardson) for someone many folks also considered a head case. So when King played close to Larry Bird's level (finished 2nd in the MVP voting to him) nobody really expected that. On the other hand, expectations were high when Melo arrived even though we hadn't made the playoffs in six years.
King was also a way more efficient scorer than Melo. His near MVP year King shot 57% from the field averaging 26+ ppg! So its safe to say you didn't see many nights from King like Melo has had the past couple of games.
So I kinda get why King is more beloved than Melo, but I also do get the hateraid so many have for Melo.
I don't think anyone left here hates Melo. At a salary commensurate with his production, I'd actually love to have him here. I realized that wouldn't happen and wanted him traded though.When analyzing the cost of Melo, you have to look at how much we could have gotten instead for those young players on rookie contracts and have to consider the picks and 200 mil in salary room we've given up.
And considering how people overrate how much big time free agents want to come to NY, you can't count on anyone better coming here via free agency. Dallas has had one of the best situations in the NBA: superstar franchise player in his prime, great owner, great environment, great city, winning teams and could never land a big time free agent.
I've been giving names over the past 5 years. There's no reason a fan who doesn't do this for a living should have to come up with a comprehensive list though. And I'm not stuck on only one person replacing Melo. I've indicated who I'd be looking to hire to make these kinds of decisions. Plenty of metrics and common sense would indicate Melo was not worth the largest contract on the planet. Now if you want to argue our management was not competent enough to build a situation that attracts good FAS, you're probably right. (Overpaying for Melo twice was just a symptom of many problems and we probably would have overpaid for someone else instead.) But that takes the conversation in a much broader direction.
I just don't think there's much tangible evidence that we would've been better not acquiring Melo unless part of your thought process is keeping our picks and a boatload of mediocre players would've resulted in worse winning records and would've yielded a franchise player in the draft, which is somewhat dubious.
You have to build a desirable situation first. Then FAs come.Since Melo came, the Knicks have signed as free agents:
Tyson Chandler
JR Smith
Jason Kidd
Rasheed Wallace
Kurt Thomas
Arron Afflalo
Robin Lopez
Derrick Williams
Joakim Noah
Courtney Lee
Brandon Jennings
Mindagaus Kuzminskas
Lance Thomas took less to re-signThose are all desireable players other teams wanted. Seems FA are not exactly staying away
I meant, you want to get good FAs on good contracts, not just by badly outbidding everyone else.Courtney Lee took far less than he could've gotten elsewhere to sign with the Knicks. Noah was offered more by the Wizards than he took from the Knicks.
When we traded Robin Lopez, everyone said it was such a bad trade because he was on such a good contract.
JR Smith took far below market value to stay with the Knicks.
Tyson Chandler even had a similar offer from the Warriors in 2011 and chose the Knicks.
Amar'e was overpaid, but that was pre-Melo, which only proves the point.
So, in summary, ...what?
We could go through each player individually but the cliffs notes version is that we're going to disagree on which of those players in that list are "good FAs" and which were not overpaid. (Overpaying would have been a better word than outbidding.)So, they're paying less than other teams offered, but it's still an overpay? Ok.
Your being way too logical and informed. Lol. Melo hate will always counter with it was Melo's fault for the Denver trade. Cuz the GM and Dolan should had no responsibility to be better negotiators and realized NY was only place Melo wanted to go to. Then the haters will bring up how much we gave up. Because all those players went on to be All Stars. Plus he left us decimated. But they expected him to win with the decimated crew. But what about extinguisher punching, knee absent STAT? LBJ, Duncan, Curry, Blake, Wade etc would have won with such a great sidekick. Your right, its funny how everyone knew we were blowing the team and tanking....except Melo haters, who still demanded him to win. A mive which btw got us KP.As for free agents, if not for Melo they were lined up to play for a blown up team with a rookie coach and, oh yes, the free flowing, talent showcasing Triangle. Think a better question is why the Fuck would an All star like Melo stay with such a dysfunctional organazation? Probably the money, cuz that's hard to get in this budget pinching NBA.
Who here do you think falls into that Melo hate group? I do not think anyone does. Virtually everything you wrote above doesn't reflect my thinking.
By "here" do you mean this particular thread, or the UK in general? You can't be serious that you don't think there are any Melohaters on the board.
UK in general and I am 100% serious. TKF doesn't post here anymore, and I don't think anyone close to his views does.