Knicks · Insider: Is Derrick Rose helping Kristaps Porzingis, New York Knicks? (page 1)
Is Derrick Rose helping Kristaps Porzingis, New York Knicks? - NBAby Micah Adams on 2016-12-31 02:26:08 UTC (original: http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/18186804/is-derrick-rose-helping-kristaps-porzingis-new-york-knicks-nba)
Several times a game this season, you'll catch a glimpse of peak Derrick Rose pushing the pace and putting defenders on their heels like few players can. When Rose is assertive with the ball he adds a unique, dynamic dimension to the New York Knicks' offense.
But is an aggressive Rose actually a good thing for the Knicks' playoff chances? Is he helping or hurting the play of young star Kristaps Porzingis?
And with Rose saying he wants to stay with the team the rest of his life, should New York commit to him long-term this offseason?
Let's take a look.
Finding the right style
After years of playing the what-if game with Rose and wondering just how much of his former self would come back following multiple injuries, we might finally have an answer. He has yet to miss a game, the furthest into a season he's gone without sitting out since 2009-10 (the year before he won the MVP). The Knicks have been better with him on the floor than him off it. With New York in early contention for a playoff spot, it appears as though Phil Jackson's gamble might actually be paying off.
Rose has to balance playing the role of facilitator alongside a pair of offensive marvels like Carmelo Anthony and Porzingis and calling his own number. That can be a tall order for a player used to being a ball dominant No. 1 option his entire life. There's a scene in "Forgetting Sarah Marshall" where Paul Rudd is teaching Jason Segel how to surf. It's full of mixed messages, with Rudd repeatedly saying "do less" and "do more." That's Rose in 2016. You don't want him to do nothing, because that defeats the purpose of having him in the first place. But you also don't want him trying to do too much.
In small doses, Rose puts pressure on defenses in ways nobody else on the roster can. The trouble early in the season has come when Rose's assertiveness as a scorer takes on too large a role. An early trend, and one that has carried over from his final season in Chicago, is that far too often Rose's biggest nights on the offensive end result in Knicks losses.
In each of Rose's five highest usage games of the season, the Knicks have lost. (This is using the NBA.com/stats version of usage rate that doesn't factor in assists, so we can measure Rose's effect when making playing for himself). The opposite holds true as well, as the Knicks have won each of Rose's four lowest usage games of the season.
Rose's highest usage rate games
Usage Result
Oct. 25 at Cavaliers 30.2 Lost
Nov. 28 vs. Thunder 29.5 Lost
Nov. 2 vs. Rockets 29.3 Lost
Nov. 26 at Hornets 29.2 Lost
Nov. 1 at Pistons 28.9 LostThis season
Rose's usage rate this season is 23.7 in wins and 27.6 in losses. How significant is that difference? Of the more than 40 players this season with an overall usage rate of 25 or greater that have also played at least 400 minutes, only Devin Booker has a larger increase in usage when comparing wins to losses. Given that Booker is a 20-year-old shooting guard and the No. 1 option on his team, it makes sense that when losing he'd take on a larger burden trying to shoot the Suns back into games. For his own development, Phoenix probably even welcomes it.
However, for a point guard playing alongside one of the league's highest usage players in Carmelo Anthony and one of the league's brightest young stars in Kristaps Porzingis, it's a potentially troubling sign that Rose is clearly still adjusting to his evolving role in New York.
The usage rate is just one marker. Indicators of Rose looking for his own offense is significantly up in losses while his assists are slightly down.
Rose in wins vs. losses
Wins Losses
Usage rate 23.7 27.6
FGA 12.9 17.1
FTA 3.2 4.3
Fouls drawn 2.5 4.0
Assists 5.0 4.6
Per gamePlayer tracking data from SportVU further illuminates the effects of his playmaking tendencies.
In wins this season, Rose is passing on 40 percent of his 9.2 drives per game. His 11.1 drives per game in losses would rank sixth in the NBA overall while his pass percentage of 19 percent would be the lowest of any of the top 30 players in total drives per game. Simply put, in Knicks losses this season, Rose has played like one of the most aggressive players in the NBA while simultaneously not getting others involved on those forays into the lane.
It's not just a half-court issue, either. While Rose still likes to push pace in the open floor, it's not nearly the effective play you might presume.
According to Synergy video tracking, Rose ranks 11th in the NBA in plays and ninth in shot attempts as a ball handler in transition. And although he is among the league leaders in volume, the same can't be said for his effectiveness. Rose's 0.81 points per play rates far below league average and of the 25 players with the most transition plays, only Jeff Teague has produced fewer points per play.
Good or bad for Porzingis?
A potential concern when Jackson traded for Rose would be how his ball dominant presence might impact the development of Porzingis as he continues his ascent from promising rookie to franchise cornerstone. So far this season, the Knicks are 5-2 when Porzingis has a higher usage rate than Rose. When Rose has the higher usage, they are 5-7.
That makes even more sense when considering how effective Porzingis is on offense, particularly in the half court. There are more than 90 players this season who have used at least 200 plays in the half court. Porzingis ranks 10th among them in points per play, trailing players like Kevin Durant, Stephen Curry and Anthony Davis.
In that same group, Rose ranks among the least efficient. Every inefficient Rose play, be it a half-court drive into the paint or a transition push, is one fewer potential play for Porzingis, who is already among the most brutally effective offensive players in the league.
Half-court plays used this season
Rose Porzingis
Plays 309 325
Points per play 0.91 1.05
Rank* 67 10
*Among 93 players with 200 playsWith Rose's contract up at the end of the season, Jackson has a dilemma. Let's say the Knicks make the playoffs without any significant Rose injury issues. Does he sign up for several more years of a shoot-first point guard that isn't necessarily making his future franchise player better? Would the Knicks be better off signing a pass-first floor general that can help get the most out of Porzingis?
While it's not the fewest assists per game Rose has ever averaged, his assist rate of 23.2 is easily the lowest of his career. Of the 29 players with at least 10 starts this season at point guard, Rose ranks 27th in assist rate. In the 467 minutes he's shared the floor with Porzingis -- which is the most of any player on the Knicks -- he's assisted on 23 of his shots. That's one for every 20 minutes that they share the floor. By comparison, backup PG Brandon Jennings has assisted on 20 Porzingis buckets in just 247 minutes (roughly one every 12 minutes).
After big stars Steph Curry, Chris Paul and Kyle Lowry, there's (potentially) a pretty good crop of point guards in the 2017 free-agent class, including Jrue Holiday, Patty Mills, George Hill, Darren Collison and Jeff Teague. The 2017 draft could also be loaded with quality PGs, and if the Knicks start to slip they could use their pick to grab a talented prospect closer to Porzingis' timeline.
So can Rose continue his evolution and find that balance that optimizes the Knicks' potential and that of their 21-year-old franchise cornerstone? Depending on salary cap gymnastics, the answer to that question could ultimately decide Rose's long-term fate with the Knicks.
http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/...
After big stars Steph Curry, Chris Paul and Kyle Lowry, there's (potentially) a pretty good crop of point guards in the 2017 free-agent class, including Jrue Holiday, Patty Mills, George Hill, Darren Collison and Jeff Teague. The 2017 draft could also be loaded with quality PGs, and if the Knicks start to slip they could use their pick to grab a talented prospect closer to Porzingis' timeline.
Chances are pretty high that Curry, Paul and Lowry aren't coming to the Knicks lol. But I'd like us to make a big push at Holiday and Hill. They're not the most dynamic players, but they're versatile and would give us options. They could share a backcourt with either Rose or Jennings, or spot us a few years if we draft a good prospect.
As for the entire article, I don't doubt Rose is helping KP. In those losses where Rose's usage was high, the offense was stagnant and he needed to carry it for stretches. I do think that Rose could help KP even more with better, accurate passes off the penetration. Rose is never going to be Stockton, or even Jennings, but I do believe he'll be a better passer with more reps and practice.
This is my problem with some of the analytics and advanced stats... they just dont account for chemistry how things actually look. I mean if KP gets 6 points by following Rose to the basket and cleaning up his misses what does the box score say? It says KP gets 3 offensive boards, goes 3-3 and has a zero usage. What does it say for Rose? That he went 0-3, missed point blank and held the ball with a high usage. However if you actually *watch* the game you might see that the other team KNEW that Rose would score one on one, so he drew in the defense which lead to easy garbage buckets from our bigmen. Now that is simply smart and basic basketball. However in the box score it says "Rose is the worst PG in the league" and "Rose hurts his team."
This is not even me defending Rose. Im on the fence at best with him. There is plenty of good, but if he gets hurt and losses those wheels he's got no skill to fall back on. However how well he fits with KP is TBD. KP is pretty good at getting off his own shot, so he may benefit more from the space and attention another scorer gets vs. being set up by a distributor.
Personally I think we are seeing the good in both. We are seeing amazing fast break and easy buckets coming from KP/Jennings.. but we are also seeing KP beat on an inferior defender because you must respect Rose else your giving easy buckets there.
Time will tell... I think the BEST part is we are seeing KP play well with BOTH types of players and that he doesnt need to lean on one or the other to be an impact scorer.
BigDaddyG wrote:The Holiday brothers would be great, and I would be down with JRue + Jennings back over Rose (assuming we fit in Justin). I would be totally down with that. Long athletic wings. Perfect. With KP, Lee and our bigs we would be a loooong team.After big stars Steph Curry, Chris Paul and Kyle Lowry, there's (potentially) a pretty good crop of point guards in the 2017 free-agent class, including Jrue Holiday, Patty Mills, George Hill, Darren Collison and Jeff Teague. The 2017 draft could also be loaded with quality PGs, and if the Knicks start to slip they could use their pick to grab a talented prospect closer to Porzingis' timeline.Chances are pretty high that Curry, Paul and Lowry aren't coming to the Knicks lol. But I'd like us to make a big push at Holiday and Hill. They're not the most dynamic players, but they're versatile and would give us options. They could share a backcourt with either Rose or Jennings, or spot us a few years if we draft a good prospect.
As for the entire article, I don't doubt Rose is helping KP. In those losses where Rose's usage was high, the offense was stagnant and he needed to carry it for stretches. I do think that Rose could help KP even more with better, accurate passes off the penetration. Rose is never going to be Stockton, or even Jennings, but I do believe he'll be a better passer with more reps and practice.
fishmike wrote:I agree but I think Jrue gets the max and stays in NOla.BigDaddyG wrote:The Holiday brothers would be great, and I would be down with JRue + Jennings back over Rose (assuming we fit in Justin). I would be totally down with that. Long athletic wings. Perfect. With KP, Lee and our bigs we would be a loooong team.After big stars Steph Curry, Chris Paul and Kyle Lowry, there's (potentially) a pretty good crop of point guards in the 2017 free-agent class, including Jrue Holiday, Patty Mills, George Hill, Darren Collison and Jeff Teague. The 2017 draft could also be loaded with quality PGs, and if the Knicks start to slip they could use their pick to grab a talented prospect closer to Porzingis' timeline.Chances are pretty high that Curry, Paul and Lowry aren't coming to the Knicks lol. But I'd like us to make a big push at Holiday and Hill. They're not the most dynamic players, but they're versatile and would give us options. They could share a backcourt with either Rose or Jennings, or spot us a few years if we draft a good prospect.
As for the entire article, I don't doubt Rose is helping KP. In those losses where Rose's usage was high, the offense was stagnant and he needed to carry it for stretches. I do think that Rose could help KP even more with better, accurate passes off the penetration. Rose is never going to be Stockton, or even Jennings, but I do believe he'll be a better passer with more reps and practice.
Rose’s presence on the floor elevates the team (the Knicks are 6.4 points per 100 possessions better when he plays), despite what you may be hearing on Twitter or in local bars. Nuance, after all, has never been the sports fan’s strength.http://bleacherreport.com/articles/26790...
IMO Rose does need to look for KP more but overall he is helping this team win games. I expect that this team will continue to develop better chemistry and Rose should figure out how to play together with Melo and KP more effectively as time moves on. All 3 are scoring options and that can be a difficult thing to balance. Especially for Rose and Melo who are much more used to scoring than being team players.
We didn't lose because Rose's usage rating.... we lost because of defensive ineptitude which had the Knicks trying to play catch up. That's why these special stats needs to have an asterisk.
Of course Rose should not be chucking.... he isn't. He's said all the right things about passing and being a true point guard with KP and Melo out there. He's doing it. When the Knicks are behind we need him taking more risks looking for his shot and pushing the ball.
Chances are we will get better because that's the going trend this season so far. Everyone from Hornacek, Defense, Justin Holiday, Kuz, KP taking the next... we're in a great place
I like have a PG who can get to the basket like Rose and pull up for short Js, but I also want someone who recognizes his teammates more.
WaltLongmire wrote:Lot of good things from Rose so far, but he is not a player who makes others better, IMO. I have seen many assists left on the table by Rose this season...and many of them have involved KP after he has set a pick for Rose and drifted away and behind the 3pt line, with nobody near him.I like have a PG who can get to the basket like Rose and pull up for short Js, but I also want someone who recognizes his teammates more.
It's a fine balance that Rose has to be COACHED on by Jeff. I was upset with Rose at the start of the last game because he kept missing a WIDE OPEN KP! I imagine that in the film sessions Jeff is pointing this out. If we see it you know Jeff and the coaches see it and will address it. At that point it's on Rose to make the adjustment and I think he will.
EnySpree wrote:I agree with Fish...the other thing is in terms of pure PG play and the fact that he is a scorer Rose has to be careful with the ball and that means he's more tentative to making bad passes until he's 100% of where guys are etc.. that is just going to take some time. Rose also plays totally off the ball in the half court triangl-ish sets which is fine. If he gets the ball against a guy he take to the rim and their is space its a win.We didn't lose because Rose's usage rating.... we lost because of defensive ineptitude which had the Knicks trying to play catch up. That's why these special stats needs to have an asterisk.
Of course Rose should not be chucking.... he isn't. He's said all the right things about passing and being a true point guard with KP and Melo out there. He's doing it. When the Knicks are behind we need him taking more risks looking for his shot and pushing the ball.
Chances are we will get better because that's the going trend this season so far. Everyone from Hornacek, Defense, Justin Holiday, Kuz, KP taking the next... we're in a great place
fishmike wrote:EnySpree wrote:I agree with Fish...the other thing is in terms of pure PG play and the fact that he is a scorer Rose has to be careful with the ball and that means he's more tentative to making bad passes until he's 100% of where guys are etc.. that is just going to take some time. Rose also plays totally off the ball in the half court triangl-ish sets which is fine. If he gets the ball against a guy he take to the rim and their is space its a win.We didn't lose because Rose's usage rating.... we lost because of defensive ineptitude which had the Knicks trying to play catch up. That's why these special stats needs to have an asterisk.
Of course Rose should not be chucking.... he isn't. He's said all the right things about passing and being a true point guard with KP and Melo out there. He's doing it. When the Knicks are behind we need him taking more risks looking for his shot and pushing the ball.
Chances are we will get better because that's the going trend this season so far. Everyone from Hornacek, Defense, Justin Holiday, Kuz, KP taking the next... we're in a great place
Yeah people aren't noticing that with Rose and Melo in there they run a slightly different style with more of a Triangle feel to it. Rose isn't really playing a pure PG role in that. Still I think we'll see more passing from Rose the longer these guys are together and chemistry is improved. Rose is not a Pure PG. He's much more of a combo scoring guard so he needs to gain much more comfort with where guys will be. All that missed time really messed up the timetable for Rose to get acclimated!!! People seem to keep forgetting that.
fishmike wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:The Holiday brothers would be great, and I would be down with JRue + Jennings back over Rose (assuming we fit in Justin). I would be totally down with that. Long athletic wings. Perfect. With KP, Lee and our bigs we would be a loooong team.After big stars Steph Curry, Chris Paul and Kyle Lowry, there's (potentially) a pretty good crop of point guards in the 2017 free-agent class, including Jrue Holiday, Patty Mills, George Hill, Darren Collison and Jeff Teague. The 2017 draft could also be loaded with quality PGs, and if the Knicks start to slip they could use their pick to grab a talented prospect closer to Porzingis' timeline.Chances are pretty high that Curry, Paul and Lowry aren't coming to the Knicks lol. But I'd like us to make a big push at Holiday and Hill. They're not the most dynamic players, but they're versatile and would give us options. They could share a backcourt with either Rose or Jennings, or spot us a few years if we draft a good prospect.
As for the entire article, I don't doubt Rose is helping KP. In those losses where Rose's usage was high, the offense was stagnant and he needed to carry it for stretches. I do think that Rose could help KP even more with better, accurate passes off the penetration. Rose is never going to be Stockton, or even Jennings, but I do believe he'll be a better passer with more reps and practice.
A tweet i saw from Seth Rosenthal:
https://twitter.com/seth_rosenthal?ref_s...
Knick offseason--we should sign Jrue, draft Aaron (who i'm guessing is their little brother) and become a home for the Holidays.
Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://twitter.com/seth_rosenthal/status/805135403640639488
Click here to view the Tweet
fishmike wrote:this really feels agenda driven... like he had to write an article to support a point. Jennings vs. Rose is an example. One is a scorer, the other scoring 6.5ppg but leading the team in assists. Is it really fair to look at who's getting more assists to KP? Does that make ANY sense?This is my problem with some of the analytics and advanced stats... they just dont account for chemistry how things actually look. I mean if KP gets 6 points by following Rose to the basket and cleaning up his misses what does the box score say? It says KP gets 3 offensive boards, goes 3-3 and has a zero usage. What does it say for Rose? That he went 0-3, missed point blank and held the ball with a high usage. However if you actually *watch* the game you might see that the other team KNEW that Rose would score one on one, so he drew in the defense which lead to easy garbage buckets from our bigmen. Now that is simply smart and basic basketball. However in the box score it says "Rose is the worst PG in the league" and "Rose hurts his team."
This is not even me defending Rose. Im on the fence at best with him. There is plenty of good, but if he gets hurt and losses those wheels he's got no skill to fall back on. However how well he fits with KP is TBD. KP is pretty good at getting off his own shot, so he may benefit more from the space and attention another scorer gets vs. being set up by a distributor.
Personally I think we are seeing the good in both. We are seeing amazing fast break and easy buckets coming from KP/Jennings.. but we are also seeing KP beat on an inferior defender because you must respect Rose else your giving easy buckets there.
Time will tell... I think the BEST part is we are seeing KP play well with BOTH types of players and that he doesnt need to lean on one or the other to be an impact scorer.
yep, there's just also some intellectual dishonesty in that Rose usually doesn't even TRY to take over a game unless all other options are lost. Also pretty obvious that 3 of those 5 games where Rose had high usage were in the first week of the season.
I saw one of the posting and toasting authors using advanced stats to say Jose Calderon was better last year than Rose has been this year. You just have to wonder if those guys ever watch the games at all.
I wouldn't want to sign Rose long-term, still, I don't think. But to argue he's been a negative this season... stinks of BS to me and someone with an agenda. anyone who tells you Calderon on this team this year would make the team better a) probably didn't watch games last year or this year and b) just doesn't understand basketball all that well.
He should look more for KP off screens but he is also trying to get his game back. If he plays passive it will help KP but not get Rose back to where he wants to be. Slowly he has gone from being effective at driving alone to a lethal scorer as soon as he gets free throw line and in. The last 2 weeks he has been playing like an all star. This is all we could have hoped for. We didn't get him to be Jason Kidd. We got him to be aggressive and give us a 2nd star on the perimeter to take attention off Melo.
What we should do is run more 2 point guard lineups with Rose and Jennings. Jennings is a pass first guard and Rose a shoot first. Gives Knicks more weapons.
nyknickzingis wrote:Rose is a shooting guard. Not a point guard or pass first guard. Have to view him as such.
He should look more for KP off screens but he is also trying to get his game back. If he plays passive it will help KP but not get Rose back to where he wants to be. Slowly he has gone from being effective at driving alone to a lethal scorer as soon as he gets free throw line and in. The last 2 weeks he has been playing like an all star. This is all we could have hoped for. We didn't get him to be Jason Kidd. We got him to be aggressive and give us a 2nd star on the perimeter to take attention off Melo.What we should do is run more 2 point guard lineups with Rose and Jennings. Jennings is a pass first guard and Rose a shoot first. Gives Knicks more weapons.
Yeah I'm a bit surprised Jennings has not logged more minutes with Rose. Seems like that lineup only comes out in the 4th?
martin wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Rose is a shooting guard. Not a point guard or pass first guard. Have to view him as such.
He should look more for KP off screens but he is also trying to get his game back. If he plays passive it will help KP but not get Rose back to where he wants to be. Slowly he has gone from being effective at driving alone to a lethal scorer as soon as he gets free throw line and in. The last 2 weeks he has been playing like an all star. This is all we could have hoped for. We didn't get him to be Jason Kidd. We got him to be aggressive and give us a 2nd star on the perimeter to take attention off Melo.What we should do is run more 2 point guard lineups with Rose and Jennings. Jennings is a pass first guard and Rose a shoot first. Gives Knicks more weapons.
Yeah I'm a bit surprised Jennings has not logged more minutes with Rose. Seems like that lineup only comes out in the 4th?
Truthfully, I wish it would get employed more regularly when the second team needs scoring. While I do think Rose is not the right point for NY, he's still a great player and his ability to score is a big part of that
martin wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Rose is a shooting guard. Not a point guard or pass first guard. Have to view him as such.
He should look more for KP off screens but he is also trying to get his game back. If he plays passive it will help KP but not get Rose back to where he wants to be. Slowly he has gone from being effective at driving alone to a lethal scorer as soon as he gets free throw line and in. The last 2 weeks he has been playing like an all star. This is all we could have hoped for. We didn't get him to be Jason Kidd. We got him to be aggressive and give us a 2nd star on the perimeter to take attention off Melo.What we should do is run more 2 point guard lineups with Rose and Jennings. Jennings is a pass first guard and Rose a shoot first. Gives Knicks more weapons.
Yeah I'm a bit surprised Jennings has not logged more minutes with Rose. Seems like that lineup only comes out in the 4th?
I've been wondering if Hornacek holds it back for the 4th quarter only when really needed - to throw a different look at the opposing team that they haven't seen for the whole game. Catch teams off guard and have them need to make an adjustment in the 4th quarter. I kinda like that tactic. Maybe some games if really needed, they could try it earlier...
crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Rose is a shooting guard. Not a point guard or pass first guard. Have to view him as such.
He should look more for KP off screens but he is also trying to get his game back. If he plays passive it will help KP but not get Rose back to where he wants to be. Slowly he has gone from being effective at driving alone to a lethal scorer as soon as he gets free throw line and in. The last 2 weeks he has been playing like an all star. This is all we could have hoped for. We didn't get him to be Jason Kidd. We got him to be aggressive and give us a 2nd star on the perimeter to take attention off Melo.What we should do is run more 2 point guard lineups with Rose and Jennings. Jennings is a pass first guard and Rose a shoot first. Gives Knicks more weapons.
Yeah I'm a bit surprised Jennings has not logged more minutes with Rose. Seems like that lineup only comes out in the 4th?
I've been wondering if Hornacek holds it back for the 4th quarter only when really needed - to throw a different look at the opposing team that they haven't seen for the whole game. Catch teams off guard and have them need to make an adjustment in the 4th quarter. I kinda like that tactic. Maybe some games if really needed, they could try it earlier...
yeah I had been thinking the same.