Knicks · Melo working on his ball hogging (page 1)

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18224...

On Melo:

"Carmelo a lot of times wants to hold the ball longer than -- we have a rule: If you hold a pass two seconds, you benefit the defense. So he has a little bit of a tendency to hold it for three, four, five seconds, and then everybody comes to a stop," Jackson said in an interview with CBS Sports Network that aired Tuesday. "That is one of the things we work with. But he's adjusted to [the triangle], he knows what he can do and he's willing to see its success."

Jackson's comments were prompted by a question about whether Anthony can fit in the triangle offense. Jackson made it clear he believes Anthony can.

"He can play that role that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant played," Jackson said. "It's a perfect spot for him to be in that isolated position on the weak side, because it's an overload offense and there's a weakside man that always has an advantage if the ball is swung."

On the triangle

Jackson also shared his thoughts on the resistance to the triangle offense in the modern NBA. Jackson ran the triangle while winning an NBA-record 11 championships with the Chicago Bulls and Los Angeles Lakers. The Knicks, though, have struggled with the offense, winning a total of 49 games over the past two seasons. That lack of success has led to public backlash of the triangle.

"I think there are two reasons," Jackson said of the resistance to the offense. "One is it's always a little bit of a pie-in-your-face type of thing to say that this [the triangle offense] has been the reason for winning. The reason for winning, obviously, is good players. And when good players want to play together and they join in a form or a format to play together, then really good things happen."

"I think the other thing is, simply, it becomes something to attack," Jackson added. "And I think it's easy to attack it because it doesn't promote basic basketball that's being played now in the NBA, which is an open floor. Keep the lane open, allow the opportunity of guard play, screen roll play ... big men rolling the lane, and then 3-point shooting. But there's a place for it. It doesn't matter. It's still basketball and there's still a place for it."

Have at it

Phil Jackson in an interview has said a few interesting things.

First that Melo can play the Jordan or Kobe role in the Triangle. He has the ability to dominate in an isolation from the weak wing. We see this. But like some of us have been saying he has to do it quickly, not hold on to the ball more than 2 seconds. That if he starts to hold it for 5, 6 seconds or more it kills the offensive flow. This is what I want Melo to do. He can shoot and be aggressive but do it quickly. If he wants to take it into the post or drive, he needs to make the move quickly after his catch, not hold on to it for 5 seconds, then make a move, then take a shot. That kills the offense and makes others ball watchers and allows easy chances for poor defense in transition. I think this is a key element to our season.

Next seems Phil is gushing about Kristaps. Way he plays, how he's a unicorn in the league. Nice words on KP. Considering Phil has coached and been around a couple of the greatest players of all time those are not empty words. He knows talent and he knows greatness. KP is not there at that level, but he is a star and there is no reason KP should aim any lower than being one of the best if not the best player in the league. This is also why I love Jeff as our coach, he pushes KP to be the best and believes KP has the talent. Same with Rambis. I never felt that Fisher felt KP could be that good, although Fisher was very supportive and gave KP lots of chances, you get the feeling these coaches know how to get more from KP.

Going back to what Phil said about Melo, I think the same applies to Jennings and Rose. They have too many possessions where they can just dribble the shot clock out. Not what we want to do. Make the quick move. And Jennings needs to shoot the ball when he's open. If he starts passing up good looks it hurts the team's game plan in the long run. It will make defenses not take Jennings shot as a threat and just play him as a passer. This is why he often can have high turnover games as well.

Overall I am pleased with the Jackson interview and this team's current play, They are still a work in progress but are running the Triangle, pushing the break, using screen and rolls and do a little bit of everything. We don't dump the ball in the post as much as last year which is good. Even when we set up the Triangle spacing we move towards getting a shot from using motion within the offense after screens come into play. Jeff is also doing a good job of mixing it up and in the 4th going with what has become tradiotional basketabll these days with pace and space, the paint open. If you look at the offense in the 4th with Jennings in most games, or even Rose, we are spreading the floor with KP out at the corner or wing, and having the 5 (if it's not KP) come set a high screen. Very basic pace and space game plan with no one in the post. The rest of the game we do have someone in the post. It's a nice game plan by Hornachek, I think designed in accordance with Phil.

Jennings has become the most important player on this team in terms of X factor. He is vital for the 4th Quarter pace and space game plan, he is the team's most energizing perimeter defender and he's a game changer when he's on. When he plays well, we look like contenders. When he doesn't play well we look like a .500 type of team.

Maybe I'm not the basketball genius that Phil is but it appears to me that the double teams on Melo don't happen until the 3-4 second range and then he often makes the pass to a hopefully wide open teammate. If he does that consistently,should that be considered "ball hogging"???

ActionJackson wrote:Maybe I'm not the basketball genius that Phil is but it appears to me that the double teams on Melo don't happen until the 3-4 second range and then he often makes the pass to a hopefully wide open teammate. If he does that consistently,should that be considered "ball hogging"???

From what I have seen, that is when he has the ball at the post where he can often take his man one on one. If there is help, there is someone open, but if that's the play, its intiated by the Defense.
Also I have observed when melo gets the ball and holds it, he needs to instinctively act, not think. while he has been around the triangle enough, the act must be that as a cohesive unit. Melo is often thinking about "Gee, I could have come here as a free agent and had a fuller cupboard!" Or, "Who is La La out to the movies with?".

Phil can often be seen at games smirking about his 12 mil salary in his special seat thinking about the Triangle. Not on the court, but his three bank accounts!

BTW: Jordan and Kobe were able to do things to effect games without the ball better than Melo. Astute as that statement is, its lost on some. Melo is not Jordan, but he is paid like him.
Trump is the president. Things change.

ActionJackson wrote:Maybe I'm not the basketball genius that Phil is but it appears to me that the double teams on Melo don't happen until the 3-4 second range and then he often makes the pass to a hopefully wide open teammate. If he does that consistently,should that be considered "ball hogging"???

This ball hogging stuff is going too far. I used to think the same way, that melo is a black hole. But the reason melo takes longer to make a move, is because he's reading the defense. Single coverage is the green light for melo, because he knows nobody can guard him 1 on 1. But there is a thin line between how long melo holds the ball, and how effective he can be if you allow him to find a rhythm. In the triangle, yes he can be similar to Jordan or Kobe. But as an ISO player, he's far different than most gifted 1 on 1 players.

I'm a similar player and usually my team knows I can't be stopped 1 on 1. Reminder, this was 10 years ago! But even today, 1 on 1 is very difficult to guard anybody who has a quick first step left or right....with a pull up jumper going left or right. And sometimes I need that ISO play to find a rhythm, in case my catch and shoot game is off. So I used to be hard on melo for doing that, but not anymore. When he was younger, it didn't matter what the defense was doing, he just went. But as you get older, you only do what the defense is giving you. And you need time to analyze the defense before you make a move.

Melo's an elite scorer. It's his best attribute. What's been added this year is:
1) being able to see over the double teams and see open teammates and a unicorn who can actually hit open j's and 3's.
2) having a higher caliber of teammates/unicorn gives Melo nights like last night, where opposing coaches will dare Melo to beat them one on one. Melo salivates. One on one coverage. Imagine that. Makes life easier on some nights, don't it?

Melo rebounds. Melo can dime. Melo is not Kobe or MJ because Melo don't play SG. By the way, Melo's not LeFlop, either. Just in case you forgot.

Melo gets paid like he should for what he does. A first ballot HOF forward who wants and gets buckets. Some people need to get over the money, as well as the last election.

blkexec wrote:
This ball hogging stuff is going too far. I used to think the same way, that melo is a black hole. But the reason melo takes longer to make a move, is because he's reading the defense. Single coverage is the green light for melo, because he knows nobody can guard him 1 on 1. But there is a thin line between how long melo holds the ball, and how effective he can be if you allow him to find a rhythm. In the triangle, yes he can be similar to Jordan or Kobe. But as an ISO player, he's far different than most gifted 1 on 1 players.

I'm a similar player and usually my team knows I can't be stopped 1 on 1. Reminder, this was 10 years ago! But even today, 1 on 1 is very difficult to guard anybody who has a quick first step left or right....with a pull up jumper going left or right. And sometimes I need that ISO play to find a rhythm, in case my catch and shoot game is off. So I used to be hard on melo for doing that, but not anymore. When he was younger, it didn't matter what the defense was doing, he just went. But as you get older, you only do what the defense is giving you. And you need time to analyze the defense before you make a move.

Been saying since Melo became a Knick that ISO isn't necessarily a dirty word when used effectively, and within the flow of the offense. Some folks dont like it at all. Melo has held on to the ball too long at times, and it results too often in teammates standing around when he does.

I played streetball back in the day as well. Sometimes guys would spend too much time posting up, dribbling, without actually taking the shot, and people would yell at that person to give up the rock. There are limits.

Check out this edited version which shows almost every time Duncan or Garnett went ISO against each other in the 99' playoffs. Check out how long they hold on to the ball, how long they wait until making their move.

On a related subject, one thing Melo is doing which I believe is a big deal, is he's starting to call for screens. Melo never did that before, players rarely set picks for him, most likely because he didn't want them. This should help Melo get his shot off quicker at times, give him more options.

Glad at this stage in his career that Melo is using all the weapons at his disposal to get buckets, because he's not as fast as he used to be. Still effective though.

Phil is right. When melo hods the ball, it helps the defense both against him and his teammates. That passage of time allows the defense to tee up on the right assignments, gain balance etc.

he and the team would be much better off if he made a quick decision

Is Phil feeling left out that he has to bring back up the triangle. The defense slows down nearly every time they get into their triangle sets.

Also, I'm pretty sure Melo hogging the 'll will be blown up by the media so that's another great gem by Phil when the team is starting to gel. If I am Phil I don't even address the issue and instead I would've talked about how we need to increase his catch and shoot opportunity and get him on the move more to get him some easier baskets

Hahn show...Thompson with 60pts on only 11 dribbles?!

Would love to see stats on Melo's shooting success based on:

Time he has the ball before making a jump shot

Dribbles before making or missing a shot

Making a shot with the assistance of a pick or screen

How close an opponent is to him when he makes a shot and misses a jumper.

WaltLongmire wrote:Hahn show...Thompson with 60pts on only 11 dribbles?!

Would love to see stats on Melo's shooting success based on:

Time he has the ball before making a jump shot

Dribbles before making or missing a shot

Making a shot with the assistance of a pick or screen

How close an opponent is to him when he makes a shot and misses a jumper.

I'm sure some of those stats can be found on Nba.com playertracking data

And now after last night's debacle, we can have lots of threads on how Melo doesn't shoot enough.

Klay Thompson and 11 dribbles...someone else Melo needs to be like in order to have a HOF career. SMH

jrodmc wrote:And now after last night's debacle, we can have lots of threads on how Melo doesn't shoot enough.

Klay Thompson and 11 dribbles...someone else Melo needs to be like in order to have a HOF career. SMH

simple question. If Melo makes an attempt to change his game to faster scoring and less holding the ball do you think it has a positive impact on the team? A negative impact on the team, or no impact at all? Serious honest question.

fishmike wrote:

jrodmc wrote:And now after last night's debacle, we can have lots of threads on how Melo doesn't shoot enough.

Klay Thompson and 11 dribbles...someone else Melo needs to be like in order to have a HOF career. SMH

simple question. If Melo makes an attempt to change his game to faster scoring and less holding the ball do you think it has a positive impact on the team? A negative impact on the team, or no impact at all? Serious honest question.

Are those my only choices?

Seriously simple answer in the form of a question:
A)If Melo starts implementing his own version of SSOL and starts hoisting up 3's 3 seconds into the shot clock, or
B)never gets into his moves around the basket, or
C)never manages to evolve into an older, larger, slower, stronger version of Klay Thompson, or
D)never gets Lebron/Harden calls, how exactly is he supposed to change his game to be "faster scoring"?

If he does A) we will see the loving knick fanbase petitioning Congress to declare the NTC unconstitutional and a human rights violation.
If he does B) is he still a PF or is he a really big SG? And it's a little tough to be a SG at this age and size
C) I threw this in here because of that other thread about Klay's 60 points on 11 dribbles idiocy.
D) Maybe we start an "Occupy The Effing Refs" movement?

I'd love quick scoring. I'd love to have Lebron. I'd love if Melo was actually MJ. Or BK, for that matter.

But he's not. And I think it's a bit nuts to suggest he's going to change that much, this late. Sorry, but I don't think we're ever going to see a Knicks squad that can give us Olympic Melo.

Holy sheehit, I almost felt like I was channeling dk7th there for a second.

Melo's the greatest since Sprewell! whew, I feel better now...

jrodmc wrote:And now after last night's debacle, we can have lots of threads on how Melo doesn't shoot enough.

Klay Thompson and 11 dribbles...someone else Melo needs to be like in order to have a HOF career. SMH

except that even last night he held the ball long enough, often enough for the double team to develop -- to which he tried to spin away for the fall away base line jumper (i.e., not find the uncovered man -- not saying he doesn't do that; just that he didn't do it last night)

Phil is right. The team and Melo will benefit with quicker decisions to shoot or pass

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

jrodmc wrote:And now after last night's debacle, we can have lots of threads on how Melo doesn't shoot enough.

Klay Thompson and 11 dribbles...someone else Melo needs to be like in order to have a HOF career. SMH

simple question. If Melo makes an attempt to change his game to faster scoring and less holding the ball do you think it has a positive impact on the team? A negative impact on the team, or no impact at all? Serious honest question.

Are those my only choices?

Seriously simple answer in the form of a question:
A)If Melo starts implementing his own version of SSOL and starts hoisting up 3's 3 seconds into the shot clock, or
B)never gets into his moves around the basket, or
C)never manages to evolve into an older, larger, slower, stronger version of Klay Thompson, or
D)never gets Lebron/Harden calls, how exactly is he supposed to change his game to be "faster scoring"?

If he does A) we will see the loving knick fanbase petitioning Congress to declare the NTC unconstitutional and a human rights violation.
If he does B) is he still a PF or is he a really big SG? And it's a little tough to be a SG at this age and size
C) I threw this in here because of that other thread about Klay's 60 points on 11 dribbles idiocy.
D) Maybe we start an "Occupy The Effing Refs" movement?

I'd love quick scoring. I'd love to have Lebron. I'd love if Melo was actually MJ. Or BK, for that matter.

But he's not. And I think it's a bit nuts to suggest he's going to change that much, this late. Sorry, but I don't think we're ever going to see a Knicks squad that can give us Olympic Melo.

so you cant answer the question? Seriously dude. Its not OK to ask a player to make adjustments at this stage in his career?

fishmike wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

jrodmc wrote:And now after last night's debacle, we can have lots of threads on how Melo doesn't shoot enough.

Klay Thompson and 11 dribbles...someone else Melo needs to be like in order to have a HOF career. SMH

simple question. If Melo makes an attempt to change his game to faster scoring and less holding the ball do you think it has a positive impact on the team? A negative impact on the team, or no impact at all? Serious honest question.

Are those my only choices?

Seriously simple answer in the form of a question:
A)If Melo starts implementing his own version of SSOL and starts hoisting up 3's 3 seconds into the shot clock, or
B)never gets into his moves around the basket, or
C)never manages to evolve into an older, larger, slower, stronger version of Klay Thompson, or
D)never gets Lebron/Harden calls, how exactly is he supposed to change his game to be "faster scoring"?

If he does A) we will see the loving knick fanbase petitioning Congress to declare the NTC unconstitutional and a human rights violation.
If he does B) is he still a PF or is he a really big SG? And it's a little tough to be a SG at this age and size
C) I threw this in here because of that other thread about Klay's 60 points on 11 dribbles idiocy.
D) Maybe we start an "Occupy The Effing Refs" movement?

I'd love quick scoring. I'd love to have Lebron. I'd love if Melo was actually MJ. Or BK, for that matter.

But he's not. And I think it's a bit nuts to suggest he's going to change that much, this late. Sorry, but I don't think we're ever going to see a Knicks squad that can give us Olympic Melo.

so you cant answer the question? Seriously dude. Its not OK to ask a player to make adjustments at this stage in his career?

Yes, to answer your question, faster scoring would be great; positive impact all around;

Unfortunately what does that actually mean to a player like Melo?
It means he either hoists threes and misses 70% of them or he drives to the hole and gets his bloodied head shoved up his azz with no call.
Shooting 50-60% from 3 would also be great.
Getting the trips to the line that elite scorers get would also be great.
Yes, all these things, if Melo could just change his game, if the refs suddenly change this season, would have a positive impact on the team.

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

I just don't see the point in wishing Melo into becoming H2O mixed with Klay Thompson, sorry.

So, please dude, just seriously tell me how Melo, the HOF scoring PF who put the fear of God into people like Kobe and PP with his power game is suddenly going to become Allen Iverson? How does this Knick team turn him into Olympic Melo?

Serious question.

jrodmc wrote:And now after last night's debacle, we can have lots of threads on how Melo doesn't shoot enough.

Klay Thompson and 11 dribbles...someone else Melo needs to be like in order to have a HOF career. SMH

Thompson is catching and shooting...that number, if true, is reflective of the GS offense and Klay's role in it, much more than it is of Thompson's playing style.

I was never implying that this is something Anthony can do.

It's never the # of shots a player takes, it's about when he takes them, and I don't mean the time it takes him to get a shot off.

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

jrodmc wrote:And now after last night's debacle, we can have lots of threads on how Melo doesn't shoot enough.

Klay Thompson and 11 dribbles...someone else Melo needs to be like in order to have a HOF career. SMH

simple question. If Melo makes an attempt to change his game to faster scoring and less holding the ball do you think it has a positive impact on the team? A negative impact on the team, or no impact at all? Serious honest question.

Are those my only choices?

Seriously simple answer in the form of a question:
A)If Melo starts implementing his own version of SSOL and starts hoisting up 3's 3 seconds into the shot clock, or
B)never gets into his moves around the basket, or
C)never manages to evolve into an older, larger, slower, stronger version of Klay Thompson, or
D)never gets Lebron/Harden calls, how exactly is he supposed to change his game to be "faster scoring"?

If he does A) we will see the loving knick fanbase petitioning Congress to declare the NTC unconstitutional and a human rights violation.
If he does B) is he still a PF or is he a really big SG? And it's a little tough to be a SG at this age and size
C) I threw this in here because of that other thread about Klay's 60 points on 11 dribbles idiocy.
D) Maybe we start an "Occupy The Effing Refs" movement?

I'd love quick scoring. I'd love to have Lebron. I'd love if Melo was actually MJ. Or BK, for that matter.

But he's not. And I think it's a bit nuts to suggest he's going to change that much, this late. Sorry, but I don't think we're ever going to see a Knicks squad that can give us Olympic Melo.

Just saw this...kind of object to the characterization of something I wrote AS I WAS LISTENING TO THE HAHN SHOW. Was not saying Anthony should be playing like this.

Has to do with being in an optimum position to score when you get the ball, OR BEFORE YOU GET THE BALL,and not forcing the issue...you do understand this concept...right? This goes for Melo, Rose, and KP.

You are right about his age and being a moving/cutting SF, though I think he can make better use of screens and picks, which he has done at times.

WaltLongmire wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

jrodmc wrote:And now after last night's debacle, we can have lots of threads on how Melo doesn't shoot enough.

Klay Thompson and 11 dribbles...someone else Melo needs to be like in order to have a HOF career. SMH

simple question. If Melo makes an attempt to change his game to faster scoring and less holding the ball do you think it has a positive impact on the team? A negative impact on the team, or no impact at all? Serious honest question.

Are those my only choices?

Seriously simple answer in the form of a question:
A)If Melo starts implementing his own version of SSOL and starts hoisting up 3's 3 seconds into the shot clock, or
B)never gets into his moves around the basket, or
C)never manages to evolve into an older, larger, slower, stronger version of Klay Thompson, or
D)never gets Lebron/Harden calls, how exactly is he supposed to change his game to be "faster scoring"?

If he does A) we will see the loving knick fanbase petitioning Congress to declare the NTC unconstitutional and a human rights violation.
If he does B) is he still a PF or is he a really big SG? And it's a little tough to be a SG at this age and size
C) I threw this in here because of that other thread about Klay's 60 points on 11 dribbles idiocy.
D) Maybe we start an "Occupy The Effing Refs" movement?

I'd love quick scoring. I'd love to have Lebron. I'd love if Melo was actually MJ. Or BK, for that matter.

But he's not. And I think it's a bit nuts to suggest he's going to change that much, this late. Sorry, but I don't think we're ever going to see a Knicks squad that can give us Olympic Melo.

Just saw this...kind of object to the characterization of something I wrote AS I WAS LISTENING TO THE HAHN SHOW. Was not saying Anthony should be playing like this.

Has to do with being in an optimum position to score when you get the ball, OR BEFORE YOU GET THE BALL,and not forcing the issue...you do understand this concept...right? This goes for Melo, Rose, and KP.

You are right about his age and being a moving/cutting SF, though I think he can make better use of screens and picks, which he has done at times.

I AM HEREBY HEARTFULLY SORRY FOR THE CHARACTERIZATION. As anyone on this board can tell you, i'm the Chief of the overly protective Melo police or whatever fanboy thing you want to call it.

I used to think Hahn was the last bastion of even-keeled Knick reporting, but he's turned into a low grade ESPN-lite azzhole as well, and I listen to alot of Hahn and Humpty. Way too much alot.
Your post was in the flow of what seemed to me like the normal "I hate IsoMelo, wish he was LeQ, or Chris Paul or Paul Pierce or Paul George or Boy George or ...dayum, can't they just find someway to void that effin NTC?..." so I overreacted. My bad.

Would agree with your point about optimum position, but that's never been Melo's game. His optimum position is on the court with the clock running. Should that change? absoposifucqueinlutely. Will it change completely? Well, like you pointed out, he's capable of doing it, but the mf'er wants and thinks he can score every time down. Can't fault him for that, can you? Or can you?

Even on the postgame radio coverage of the Heat game, they pointed out that Melo's calling for screens, something he normally never does. Then again, when you've spent most of your career being doubled, you're not likely to be calling your teammates over to join the party.