Knicks · Retaining Rose, Jennings, and Holiday (page 1)
-Knicks can resign Rose prior to free agency using his bird-rights that transferred with him in the trade for up to the max.
-Knicks have Justin Holiday's early bird-right, because he was traded to us, which allows us to resign him for up to 4% above the league average salary. League average salary will jump above 8m per year this summer, so he can probably be resigned for up to 4 years and 40m, give or take with the annual raises.
-Knicks can then use the MLE, which will be about 8m per year starting to resign Jennings. His contract will likely be around 36m for 4 years with annual increases.
Considering Rose is only 28, Jennings 27, and Holiday 27, and all 3 hold key roles here, it seems like bringing them all back is necessary. I just don't see how letting them go and trying to replace them with cap space of about 30m will even be a possibility. You can't replace half of that production with 30m in cap space in the new salary cap. Obviously this assumes all of them want to come back for the money we can offer. It's feasible Jennings can get more in the open market, but i don't see any starting spots for him out there and can't see him making that much more money to come off the bench. He might have to take a slight discount to come back for the MLE. For Justin Holiday, an average of about 9 mil per year seems pretty in line with his value on the open market.
We will come back with the exact same team, but will need to hit with our draft picks to add talent. 3 draft picks should allow us to do so if we draft correctly. Does all this seem accurate when it comes to our cap situation this summer?
Resign Rose, Jennings, and Holiday or let them all go and have approx. 30 mil in space seems like a no-brainer to me.
Jennings is the wild card. I think the MLE is a good projection for him right now. It will be very interesting to see if we go high ceiling and try for bigger fish or we focus on building and continuity.
fishmike wrote:Holiday and Rose are ours to lose. We can pay them the most, the question is do we want to.Jennings is the wild card. I think the MLE is a good projection for him right now. It will be very interesting to see if we go high ceiling and try for bigger fish or we focus on building and continuity.
We only have the early bird rights for Holiday, so the most we can pay him is 104% of the average NBA salary. If a team want to pay him more than that, say, 4 years starting at 12 mil a year, i don't think we can match. With money that Solomon Hill and Evan Turner got, it's possible, but hopefully we can retain him.
Rose, I would be very careful handing him a max deal. He knows he needs to stay healthy for his next contract and his body is fragile. He has looked exceptional offensively, but doesn't play defense and doesn't make guys better.
Look at our record. We are a .500 right now. A point guard needs to be able to average 7 assists. He puts his head down and goes to the rim, he needs to show more. The east is terrible and the Knicks should win 47 games with this team.
Jennings is an enigma. Some games he's so good at opening up space for his teammates and others he's just firing off balance shots for anywhere on the court.
A lot of wear and tear on Rose's knees for max years/max dollars. Has to be a better use of a max contract. Rose still cant handle heavy minutes, dont want to give a max deal to someone whose minutes you have to monitor right out of the gate.
Hornacek is doing that with Melo, but it wasnt necessary right after inking his deal like it would be for Rose. Would like to see a max deal going to a player with less risk involved. And I still dont see much chemistry with KP, which is crucial when deciding on who to give a max deal IMO.
I thought Jennings might be able to break through, maybe make a case for starting. He has at times, but too inconsistent for the starting job. Wouldnt mind keeping him as a backup, he makes an effort to get KP going as well. You remove Jennings from the equation, amd KP wont have a PG who is looking for him, NG.
Holiday has really surprised me, not so much for his shooting, but everything else. He really has become the player we were hoping for when THJ was drafted. Have no idea of his market value, but he is a good role player, hope we can retain him.
CrushAlot wrote:Would you give Rose the 3 yr extension? It might be the smart move for the Knicks. I believe they have until the end of June to decide on giving him the extension.
An extension would be smartest. It would line up his contract with Noah and Lee too. But he seems to be playing his way into a longer deal. 3 years at 75m would be a bargain for us.
GustavBahler wrote:No way I want Rose getting the max. MVP Rose sure, not this year's model. Although I dont believe its as bad a situation, I remember reading about how Amare was in his 30s but had the knees of a 70 year old.A lot of wear and tear on Rose's knees for max years/max dollars. Has to be a better use of a max contract. Rose still cant handle heavy minutes, dont want to give a max deal to someone whose minutes you have to monitor right out of the gate.
Hornacek is doing that with Melo, but it wasnt necessary right after inking his deal like it would be for Rose. Would like to see a max deal going to a player with less risk involved. And I still dont see much chemistry with KP, which is crucial when deciding on who to give a max deal IMO.
I thought Jennings might be able to break through, maybe make a case for starting. He has at times, but too inconsistent for the starting job. Wouldnt mind keeping him as a backup, he makes an effort to get KP going as well. You remove Jennings from the equation, amd KP wont have a PG who is looking for him, NG.
Holiday has really surprised me, not so much for his shooting, but everything else. He really has become the player we were hoping for when THJ was drafted. Have no idea of his market value, but he is a good role player, hope we can retain him.
what are you willing to give Rose and what are your alternatives to not doing so?
GustavBahler wrote:No way I want Rose getting the max. MVP Rose sure, not this year's model. Although I dont believe its as bad a situation, I remember reading about how Amare was in his 30s but had the knees of a 70 year old.A lot of wear and tear on Rose's knees for max years/max dollars. Has to be a better use of a max contract. Rose still cant handle heavy minutes, dont want to give a max deal to someone whose minutes you have to monitor right out of the gate.
Hornacek is doing that with Melo, but it wasnt necessary right after inking his deal like it would be for Rose. Would like to see a max deal going to a player with less risk involved. And I still dont see much chemistry with KP, which is crucial when deciding on who to give a max deal IMO.
I thought Jennings might be able to break through, maybe make a case for starting. He has at times, but too inconsistent for the starting job. Wouldnt mind keeping him as a backup, he makes an effort to get KP going as well. You remove Jennings from the equation, amd KP wont have a PG who is looking for him, NG.
Holiday has really surprised me, not so much for his shooting, but everything else. He really has become the player we were hoping for when THJ was drafted. Have no idea of his market value, but he is a good role player, hope we can retain him.
I had to stop reading at the part that Amare had knees of a 70 year old at age 30...lol. I get it that his knees were older than his age but a 70 year old?? He definitely wouldn't be able to play any level of basketball (maybe a game of horse) if he had knees of a 70 year old.
I want J.Holiday back for sure, don't care about Jennings cause i don't think he's been all that great besides the first few weeks of the season and with Rose, i only want him back if we can't get S.Curry (not happening) C.Paul or K.Lowry. I think we could have a chance to get Lowry and would love to have him. I love the things Rose says about wanting to finish his career in New York and he's always saying the right things about the team to the media, he's very positive but the injury history is the only reason i just don't want take the chance with him. I actually love everything about him but the injury history.
K.Lowry to the Knicks is what i want.
martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:No way I want Rose getting the max. MVP Rose sure, not this year's model. Although I dont believe its as bad a situation, I remember reading about how Amare was in his 30s but had the knees of a 70 year old.A lot of wear and tear on Rose's knees for max years/max dollars. Has to be a better use of a max contract. Rose still cant handle heavy minutes, dont want to give a max deal to someone whose minutes you have to monitor right out of the gate.
Hornacek is doing that with Melo, but it wasnt necessary right after inking his deal like it would be for Rose. Would like to see a max deal going to a player with less risk involved. And I still dont see much chemistry with KP, which is crucial when deciding on who to give a max deal IMO.
I thought Jennings might be able to break through, maybe make a case for starting. He has at times, but too inconsistent for the starting job. Wouldnt mind keeping him as a backup, he makes an effort to get KP going as well. You remove Jennings from the equation, amd KP wont have a PG who is looking for him, NG.
Holiday has really surprised me, not so much for his shooting, but everything else. He really has become the player we were hoping for when THJ was drafted. Have no idea of his market value, but he is a good role player, hope we can retain him.
what are you willing to give Rose and what are your alternatives to not doing so?
Would want Rose's deal (if he makes it through this season) to run out when KP is due to renew his. Not assuming that KP wouldnt want Rose back, but if for some reason it doesnt work out chemistry wise, health wise, the Knicks would have an out, one less reason for KP to go somewhere else. How much to offer would depend on who else the Knicks pursue, would want the Knicks to leave enough cap space to add more talent.
The alternative to not signing him would be to try for someone like Teague, who should be a less expensive option.
Found this for FAs
newyorker4ever wrote:GustavBahler wrote:No way I want Rose getting the max. MVP Rose sure, not this year's model. Although I dont believe its as bad a situation, I remember reading about how Amare was in his 30s but had the knees of a 70 year old.A lot of wear and tear on Rose's knees for max years/max dollars. Has to be a better use of a max contract. Rose still cant handle heavy minutes, dont want to give a max deal to someone whose minutes you have to monitor right out of the gate.
Hornacek is doing that with Melo, but it wasnt necessary right after inking his deal like it would be for Rose. Would like to see a max deal going to a player with less risk involved. And I still dont see much chemistry with KP, which is crucial when deciding on who to give a max deal IMO.
I thought Jennings might be able to break through, maybe make a case for starting. He has at times, but too inconsistent for the starting job. Wouldnt mind keeping him as a backup, he makes an effort to get KP going as well. You remove Jennings from the equation, amd KP wont have a PG who is looking for him, NG.
Holiday has really surprised me, not so much for his shooting, but everything else. He really has become the player we were hoping for when THJ was drafted. Have no idea of his market value, but he is a good role player, hope we can retain him.
I had to stop reading at the part that Amare had knees of a 70 year old at age 30...lol. I get it that his knees were older than his age but a 70 year old?? He definitely wouldn't be able to play any level of basketball (maybe a game of horse) if he had knees of a 70 year old.
I want J.Holiday back for sure, don't care about Jennings cause i don't think he's been all that great besides the first few weeks of the season and with Rose, i only want him back if we can't get S.Curry (not happening) C.Paul or K.Lowry. I think we could have a chance to get Lowry and would love to have him. I love the things Rose says about wanting to finish his career in New York and he's always saying the right things about the team to the media, he's very positive but the injury history is the only reason i just don't want take the chance with him. I actually love everything about him but the injury history.
K.Lowry to the Knicks is what i want.
An 85 year old just ran a marathon in less than 4 hours. I believe the quote was from someone in the Suns org. who had access to his records. The people who (rightly) didnt want to offer him the max.
Its easy to say "Rose has the knees of an 80 year old" based on prevous experience with Stat but to sime extent Rose's situation is not degenerative, and they were separate issues.
While no two scenarios are like, I thought CP3 was washed up a few years back with his troubles, and to a lessor extent Steph Curry had a long drawn out ankle problem. Curry is playing on a 4 year, 44mil contract!!!!
He will no doubt get paid.
Rose has expressed his desire to keep learning to control his game and thus his body as he gets older. That said, knicks will have to decide if his game warrents the money and what his physical condition is to sustain a high level of play. If he can continue to play as he has, he is close to max type money.
So as a fan are we to object to the money, or his health?
If Rose really wants to stay in NY, and its a good fit, I'd let him seek his market value but to do so knicks have to be commited to matching that figure. Its a risk no doubt, and knicks can always say no.
Not sure what other team would give him the money?
If I had to guess, a reasonable contract is a four year contract with a TEAM option for year 4. At the same time, He could take a smaller deal and have an opt out after two years if he thinks he can get paid
GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:No way I want Rose getting the max. MVP Rose sure, not this year's model. Although I dont believe its as bad a situation, I remember reading about how Amare was in his 30s but had the knees of a 70 year old.A lot of wear and tear on Rose's knees for max years/max dollars. Has to be a better use of a max contract. Rose still cant handle heavy minutes, dont want to give a max deal to someone whose minutes you have to monitor right out of the gate.
Hornacek is doing that with Melo, but it wasnt necessary right after inking his deal like it would be for Rose. Would like to see a max deal going to a player with less risk involved. And I still dont see much chemistry with KP, which is crucial when deciding on who to give a max deal IMO.
I thought Jennings might be able to break through, maybe make a case for starting. He has at times, but too inconsistent for the starting job. Wouldnt mind keeping him as a backup, he makes an effort to get KP going as well. You remove Jennings from the equation, amd KP wont have a PG who is looking for him, NG.
Holiday has really surprised me, not so much for his shooting, but everything else. He really has become the player we were hoping for when THJ was drafted. Have no idea of his market value, but he is a good role player, hope we can retain him.
what are you willing to give Rose and what are your alternatives to not doing so?
Would want Rose's deal (if he makes it through this season) to run out when KP is due to renew his. Not assuming that KP wouldnt want Rose back, but if for some reason it doesnt work out chemistry wise, health wise, the Knicks would have an out, one less reason for KP to go somewhere else. How much to offer would depend on who else the Knicks pursue, would want the Knicks to leave enough cap space to add more talent.
The alternative to not signing him would be to try for someone like Teague, who should be a less expensive option.
Found this for FAs
that's kind of a non answer.
There is not too much out there to go after - CP3, Lowry, who else - and everything else is a downgrade with salary cap restrictions. You don't mind taking a step back if you don't keep Rose and also loose out on a replacement?
martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:No way I want Rose getting the max. MVP Rose sure, not this year's model. Although I dont believe its as bad a situation, I remember reading about how Amare was in his 30s but had the knees of a 70 year old.A lot of wear and tear on Rose's knees for max years/max dollars. Has to be a better use of a max contract. Rose still cant handle heavy minutes, dont want to give a max deal to someone whose minutes you have to monitor right out of the gate.
Hornacek is doing that with Melo, but it wasnt necessary right after inking his deal like it would be for Rose. Would like to see a max deal going to a player with less risk involved. And I still dont see much chemistry with KP, which is crucial when deciding on who to give a max deal IMO.
I thought Jennings might be able to break through, maybe make a case for starting. He has at times, but too inconsistent for the starting job. Wouldnt mind keeping him as a backup, he makes an effort to get KP going as well. You remove Jennings from the equation, amd KP wont have a PG who is looking for him, NG.
Holiday has really surprised me, not so much for his shooting, but everything else. He really has become the player we were hoping for when THJ was drafted. Have no idea of his market value, but he is a good role player, hope we can retain him.
what are you willing to give Rose and what are your alternatives to not doing so?
Would want Rose's deal (if he makes it through this season) to run out when KP is due to renew his. Not assuming that KP wouldnt want Rose back, but if for some reason it doesnt work out chemistry wise, health wise, the Knicks would have an out, one less reason for KP to go somewhere else. How much to offer would depend on who else the Knicks pursue, would want the Knicks to leave enough cap space to add more talent.
The alternative to not signing him would be to try for someone like Teague, who should be a less expensive option.
Found this for FAs
that's kind of a non answer.
There is not too much out there to go after - CP3, Lowry, who else - and everything else is a downgrade with salary cap restrictions. You don't mind taking a step back if you don't keep Rose and also loose out on a replacement?
More important than what Rose makes is how long he will be a Knick. He isnt going to be cheap. Im guessing he will get close to,or right at the max per year no matter how long he stays. Rose has made a point of saying that he is looking to get paid.
You asked me for an alternative, I gave you one. Teague. Thats my answer. Im really not in favor of maxing out another aging star who will still be on the books several years after KP renews his deal. Knicks have been down this road too many times IMO.
Knixkik wrote:Originally i was under the impression that it would be difficult to retain all 3 players given that our cap space would only be around 30 mil and we have only had each player for a year. However, i think it will actually be easy to retain all 3 if we chose to. Correct me if i am wrong about any of this:-Knicks can resign Rose prior to free agency using his bird-rights that transferred with him in the trade for up to the max.
-Knicks have Justin Holiday's early bird-right, because he was traded to us, which allows us to resign him for up to 4% above the league average salary. League average salary will jump above 8m per year this summer, so he can probably be resigned for up to 4 years and 40m, give or take with the annual raises.
-Knicks can then use the MLE, which will be about 8m per year starting to resign Jennings. His contract will likely be around 36m for 4 years with annual increases.
Considering Rose is only 28, Jennings 27, and Holiday 27, and all 3 hold key roles here, it seems like bringing them all back is necessary. I just don't see how letting them go and trying to replace them with cap space of about 30m will even be a possibility. You can't replace half of that production with 30m in cap space in the new salary cap. Obviously this assumes all of them want to come back for the money we can offer. It's feasible Jennings can get more in the open market, but i don't see any starting spots for him out there and can't see him making that much more money to come off the bench. He might have to take a slight discount to come back for the MLE. For Justin Holiday, an average of about 9 mil per year seems pretty in line with his value on the open market.
We will come back with the exact same team, but will need to hit with our draft picks to add talent. 3 draft picks should allow us to do so if we draft correctly. Does all this seem accurate when it comes to our cap situation this summer?
Resign Rose, Jennings, and Holiday or let them all go and have approx. 30 mil in space seems like a no-brainer to me.
Holiday isnt any good who cares if he goes. Seriously whoever we get in the draft will replace him
GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:No way I want Rose getting the max. MVP Rose sure, not this year's model. Although I dont believe its as bad a situation, I remember reading about how Amare was in his 30s but had the knees of a 70 year old.A lot of wear and tear on Rose's knees for max years/max dollars. Has to be a better use of a max contract. Rose still cant handle heavy minutes, dont want to give a max deal to someone whose minutes you have to monitor right out of the gate.
Hornacek is doing that with Melo, but it wasnt necessary right after inking his deal like it would be for Rose. Would like to see a max deal going to a player with less risk involved. And I still dont see much chemistry with KP, which is crucial when deciding on who to give a max deal IMO.
I thought Jennings might be able to break through, maybe make a case for starting. He has at times, but too inconsistent for the starting job. Wouldnt mind keeping him as a backup, he makes an effort to get KP going as well. You remove Jennings from the equation, amd KP wont have a PG who is looking for him, NG.
Holiday has really surprised me, not so much for his shooting, but everything else. He really has become the player we were hoping for when THJ was drafted. Have no idea of his market value, but he is a good role player, hope we can retain him.
what are you willing to give Rose and what are your alternatives to not doing so?
Would want Rose's deal (if he makes it through this season) to run out when KP is due to renew his. Not assuming that KP wouldnt want Rose back, but if for some reason it doesnt work out chemistry wise, health wise, the Knicks would have an out, one less reason for KP to go somewhere else. How much to offer would depend on who else the Knicks pursue, would want the Knicks to leave enough cap space to add more talent.
The alternative to not signing him would be to try for someone like Teague, who should be a less expensive option.
Found this for FAs
that's kind of a non answer.
There is not too much out there to go after - CP3, Lowry, who else - and everything else is a downgrade with salary cap restrictions. You don't mind taking a step back if you don't keep Rose and also loose out on a replacement?
More important than what Rose makes is how long he will be a Knick. He isnt going to be cheap. Im guessing he will get close to,or right at the max per year no matter how long he stays. Rose has made a point of saying that he is looking to get paid.
You asked me for an alternative, I gave you one. Teague. Thats my answer. Im really not in favor of maxing out another aging star who will still be on the books several years after KP renews his deal. Knicks have been down this road too many times IMO.
I would be ok with letting Rose go, If the Knicks can land Teague. Would Definitely like to see Holiday signed long term.
I think the Knicks retain 2 out of 3 and look for a PG in the draft. Don't know where he is at in mock drafts but Monte Morris from Iowa St. is a fantastic PG that should be around in the mid first round.
newyorker4ever wrote:I know Phoenix wanted Amare back but the doctors said his knees would not last the length of the contract he got from the Knicks. They didn't. But Amare had micro fracture surgery which is different from tearing your acl and the meniscus issues he has had. I think he has a better shot at sustaining his play longer.GustavBahler wrote:No way I want Rose getting the max. MVP Rose sure, not this year's model. Although I dont believe its as bad a situation, I remember reading about how Amare was in his 30s but had the knees of a 70 year old.A lot of wear and tear on Rose's knees for max years/max dollars. Has to be a better use of a max contract. Rose still cant handle heavy minutes, dont want to give a max deal to someone whose minutes you have to monitor right out of the gate.
Hornacek is doing that with Melo, but it wasnt necessary right after inking his deal like it would be for Rose. Would like to see a max deal going to a player with less risk involved. And I still dont see much chemistry with KP, which is crucial when deciding on who to give a max deal IMO.
I thought Jennings might be able to break through, maybe make a case for starting. He has at times, but too inconsistent for the starting job. Wouldnt mind keeping him as a backup, he makes an effort to get KP going as well. You remove Jennings from the equation, amd KP wont have a PG who is looking for him, NG.
Holiday has really surprised me, not so much for his shooting, but everything else. He really has become the player we were hoping for when THJ was drafted. Have no idea of his market value, but he is a good role player, hope we can retain him.
I had to stop reading at the part that Amare had knees of a 70 year old at age 30...lol. I get it that his knees were older than his age but a 70 year old?? He definitely wouldn't be able to play any level of basketball (maybe a game of horse) if he had knees of a 70 year old.
I want J.Holiday back for sure, don't care about Jennings cause i don't think he's been all that great besides the first few weeks of the season and with Rose, i only want him back if we can't get S.Curry (not happening) C.Paul or K.Lowry. I think we could have a chance to get Lowry and would love to have him. I love the things Rose says about wanting to finish his career in New York and he's always saying the right things about the team to the media, he's very positive but the injury history is the only reason i just don't want take the chance with him. I actually love everything about him but the injury history.
K.Lowry to the Knicks is what i want.
Of the three I think Jennings shows the most promise and his contract should be reasonable. He has the ability to play team ball and can hit the three. He just wants to play in NY, let him be our tank commander next year.