Milwaukee has built through the draft and they are going to DESTROY us the next two games. It's going to get ugly in here by the end of the week.
Sacremento fails, but GSW succeeds. Spurs still succeed in when Timmy was just a role player.
Balance of both is how they did it.
I'd say we can't repeat the sins of the past, and whats done is done. Philly, Minny, Orlando, Wash, Sac......All have been chronically rebuilding thru yoots with little to show for it.
Any of them can turn the corner at any time. It does take time to clean up messes. Isiah tried to mop up Laydens miscues and Donnie had to flush it out to make a run for Lebron. Melo has not lived up to the Savior status we all hoped and here we are with KP and Company.
I like the idea of building assets either by signing players (Ropez) and Im ok with Rose deal
Question is answered with a hybrid of both concepts.
I can't think of a young free agent that left his team. The Nets tried the poison pill route and teams kept their players. Portland is in a bit of a bind because of it. This management team hasn't traded any picks (other than for Willy) that I am aware of. I think young players will have to come through the draft and through smart scouting (i.e. Baker and Kuz).
Nalod wrote:Sacremento fails, but GSW succeeds. Spurs still succeed in when Timmy was just a role player.
Balance of both is how they did it. I'd say we can't repeat the sins of the past, and whats done is done. Philly, Minny, Orlando, Wash, Sac......All have been chronically rebuilding thru yoots with little to show for it.
Any of them can turn the corner at any time. It does take time to clean up messes. Isiah tried to mop up Laydens miscues and Donnie had to flush it out to make a run for Lebron. Melo has not lived up to the Savior status we all hoped and here we are with KP and Company.
I like the idea of building assets either by signing players (Ropez) and Im ok with Rose deal
Question is answered with a hybrid of both concepts.
I mention this right now because we have all our picks for once. We have not traded away future picks for the first time in years. I want to hold on to to them and not trade them away. Build organically through the draft.
I'm fine with a Robin Lopez type signing. He was traded away with our last first round pick, Jerian Grant, who we traded a former first round pick Timmy Hardaway Jr to get. Timmy Jr just had 29pts in a win on the road in San Antonio.
I don't want another attempted re-load. I want a full rebuild. Milwaukee has done it. The difference is that if we do it in NY and get a good young nucleus, free agents will want to come join it.
CrushAlot wrote:I can't think of a young free agent that left his team. The Nets tried the poison pill route and teams kept their players. Portland is in a bit of a bind because of it. This management team hasn't traded any picks (other than for Willy) that I am aware of. I think young players will have to come through the draft and through smart scouting (i.e. Baker and Kuz).
Phil's tenure is one thing - though he traded away Timmy Hardaway Jr for Jerian Grant and then traded Jerian Grant.
But I'm talking about the real management of the Knicks - Mills and Dolan.
We need to draft high too.... but that is another debate
Though I will say this KP makes it easier to build through the draft because he is a draw. Anyhow the way the rules are now there is zero hope you can steal a premier player from a franchise. They just have too much more money to offer.
wargames wrote:We need to draft high too.... but that is another debateThough I will say this KP makes it easier to build through the draft because he is a draw. Anyhow the way the rules are now there is zero hope you can steal a premier player from a franchise. They just have too much more money to offer.
Yup. Agreed. Giannis never even came close to FA - locked up to a 4yr $100M deal.
crzymdups wrote:wargames wrote:We need to draft high too.... but that is another debateThough I will say this KP makes it easier to build through the draft because he is a draw. Anyhow the way the rules are now there is zero hope you can steal a premier player from a franchise. They just have too much more money to offer.
Yup. Agreed. Giannis never even came close to FA - locked up to a 4yr $100M deal.
I'll take his brother just about now.
"Build thru the draft" - gunsnewing 2002
Free agency is going to become less and less viable to build through with the New CBA deal (in my opinion this is great and may deter the Knicks from taking the classic win now route). Building trough the draft is crucial, if we want a future and a good team around Kristaps then getting high picks is vital to ensure you get your pick of talent. If Melo can be traded (assuming he dropped the Clause) you could easily move him to someone for a combination of young talent and a pick or two. I wouldn't bring Rose back long term, I'd keep promoting Willy's growth and make Kp a centrepiece to draft for and build around. Just what I would do from here if I were the Knicks.
gunsnewing wrote:"Build thru the draft" - gunsnewing 2002
I think we all realized this sometime in the past 10-15 years... the question is why hasn't management?
Phil kind of did a full tear down... though he kept Melo. And he didn't have a 1st round pick in 2014 or 2016 - not his fault, obv.
My main thing is that I don't EVER want to trade picks going forward again. NEVER.
I rather have Rose and Holiday both in their primes than Lopez and Grant. Grant simply was not a great pick. RoLo was awesome but I like that deal for us even now.
We have not had much picks to work with. Now that we actually do I would much rather be in position to draft. Phil has done well with most of the picks so far. Outside of Grant, he has made good picks with KP and Hernangomez.
Our main problem right now is Melo. To be honest literally everything long term can be solved if Melo waived his NTC and we deal him for a younger athletic defensive wing and a draft pick. That's all I even want. Even as good as Melo is, he is the major obstacle in the team really rebuilding. With Jennings and Rose, Kristaps now has enough shot creators or players that draw defensive attention. We don't need Melo right now. We are not competing for a title if we make the playoffs with Melo and all Melo does is make the rebuild to a contender slower.
When our point guards were Jose, Grant and Gallo, KP would have been forced to carry too much of the load without Melo. Now with Rose and Jennings, KP can slide in perfectly in Melo current role. Less isolation, more spot ups and more team offense ran. As KP develops his post game we go to him more overt the coming years. The key will be keeping both Jennings and Rose. The other thing is we need to get extremely athletic at the 2 and 3. This will improve our defense. That would be my immediate plan. Get Melo to the Clippers in a 3 way trade that gets us an athletic 3 or 2, and a 1st round pick. Draft well this summer and focus on athleticism. Next year unleash KP with Rose/Jennings and an athletic team that plays hard and as a team on both ends. I think this rebuild is realistic. And we win more games than in the Melo era.
Heck even Rose and Jennings look ten fold better when they don't feel they have to feed Melo. Melo plans as if he is Kobe or Jordan in the offense, but his impact and consistency is half of theirs. We simply are a much better team on both ends if we trade Melo for a young athletic wing and a draft pick. With Rose now a Knick, we need to give him and Jennings full throttle of the team. Get younger and athletic around Rose and Jennings and hope KP keeps developing. That's my blue print.
Why are the only 2 options so extreme in 1 direction or the other? Neither option is good. Balance is the key. Add quality vets where possible, keep draft picks and draft well. Try to compete by doing both.
The bigger question is whether to rebuild or keep going with aging (and overrated) vets. They don't have to pick just one of the two routes you mentioned.
Bonn1997 wrote:The bigger question is whether to rebuild or keep going with aging (and overrated) vets. They don't have to pick just one of the two routes you mentioned.
And yet they always seem to pick the latter since Dolan has arrived. I'm trying to keep it simple for them.
Knixkik wrote:Why are the only 2 options so extreme in 1 direction or the other? Neither option is good. Balance is the key. Add quality vets where possible, keep draft picks and draft well. Try to compete by doing both.
I agree with balance - but I think it is fair to say that there are two core philosophies in the NBA - rebuild or reload. The Knicks under Dolan have always chosen to reload. Antonio McDyess, Keith Van Horn, Steph Marbury, JAmal Crawford, Eddy Curry, Steve Francis, Zach Randolph, Amar'e Stoudemire, Carmelo Anthony etc etc etc. Usually those guys come at the expense of draft picks. Just for that list above they traded 9(?? or more?) #1 picks over a span of fewer than ten years (2002 Dyess trade to 2011 Melo trade). Those picks became Nene, Gordon Hayward, LaMarcus Aldridge, Joakim Noah, and I'm counting Frye who we traded after two years - all those guys are still in the NBA, meanwhile all the guys we traded for are out and never worked out here - and in fact were usually massive disasters... except for Melo, who has not been a disaster, but has not exactly worked out the way some would have hoped.
I'm fine signing smart FA... but I want the focus to be a rebuild from the ground up through the draft around KP. I'm worried about an attempt to reload using our picks. We finally don't have future picks mortgaged away... we own all our picks in coming drafts. I'd like to keep it that way.
crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:The bigger question is whether to rebuild or keep going with aging (and overrated) vets. They don't have to pick just one of the two routes you mentioned.
And yet they always seem to pick the latter since Dolan has arrived. I'm trying to keep it simple for them.
Yeah, the team's problems ultimately trace to Dolan. Everyone else who's been blamed over the past 15 years is really just a symptom of the problem.
Are there any possible trade targets or deals you can think of if Melo waived the NTC? That's the clear way forward in my eyes
Knicks67 wrote:Are there any possible trade targets or deals you can think of if Melo waived the NTC? That's the clear way forward in my eyes
I thought he was a good fit in Boston and with the LAC last year... but I don't know if that would continue
Too bad he has the NTC because I'm sure the Kings would throw us the keys to the kingdom in exchange for Melo
Knicks67 wrote:Are there any possible trade targets or deals you can think of if Melo waived the NTC? That's the clear way forward in my eyes
I don't think he is waiving his ntc. I think Rose, Noah and Lee were brought in in part to put guys around Melo that could facilitate winning now. I also think he likes NYC and being a Knick. I think looking at ways to better the Knicks do not involve Melo leaving.
