Knicks · Ive done a 180 on Rose and Noah (page 1)

When the season began, the first 10 games or so, maybe 15, I thought Rose would be fantastic for us and Noah would be one of the decisions Phil regrets. As the season is unfolding and I'm seeing more playing time with both players with Porzingis, I am appreciating Noah much more and Rose much less.

Noah keeps Centers away from KP, and that's important. KP can't defend post match ups great. He's definitely showing more promise as a 4 man this year than last (when he looked better at 5 match up wise). Noah plays hard. Real hard. He's been slowly figuring out ways not to be a liability on offense. He's cutting really well. This is beyond this game. It's about the last month or so. I tend to see Noah as a good complement to KP and even Melo.

Rose while a great driver, I've began to cringe at much of his stuff. He's predictable. He's got bad energy out there. He just seems like a lousy teammate. He's the team's point guard and you're supposed to bring leadership. I know Jose sucked but Jose was a very good teammate and leader. We responded to that. Rose just seems to care only about Rose.

It may change again and Noah may begin to stink again. However right now I'd say if he had to choose, I'd be happy to see Noah back next year while KP keeps developing and I'd want Rose sold to the highest bidder before deadline. I simply have come to detest Rose's body languahe and demeanor.

Do others see this?

Here's the thing...they're both players with injury histories, and both have already missed games with exactly that in half a season. noah's contract thankfully in today's nba $$$ is tradeable. Rose i dont think is coming back. if the bulls trade rondo, i can esily see rose going back to the bulls again.

Noah just seems to play in a manner that one could see a good team build a culture with. Hard work. Defensive effort. Sharing the ball.
Rose sends the opposite message to me. Thus his teammates. He's probably the worst culprit on the team with the 1 on 1 stuff. Right now I think Rose would be a great 6th man instant scorer off the bench. I know it will never happen but I'd love Horny to have the balls to start Baker. Even if Ron just starts 6 minutes each half. Would send the right message about what kind of effort you want them to play with and what type of basketball.

Its funny because the guy I am tiring of is Jennings. Rose since coming back has at times tried to score too much but some of that is because guys have been out or nothing else is working. Jennings warts have been showing. He really thrives as a back up but recently has not looked as good. It is a long season. Both guys are on a one year deal. I think of the two Rose is the keeper

CrushAlot wrote:Its funny because the guy I am tiring of is Jennings. Rose since coming back has at times tried to score too much but some of that is because guys have been out or nothing else is working. Jennings warts have been showing. He really thrives as a back up but recently has not looked as good. It is a long season. Both guys are on a one year deal. I think of the two Rose is the keeper

My concern with Rose are follows

1) He's got bad intangibles as a point guard. All point guards on ring teams or contenders have great intangibles.
2) He's got no jumpshot or 3 ball. Too easy to hurt us in a playoff setting when teams can design specific defenses for that.
3) He's a great driver but has tunnel vision. Refuses to look and even see the open man.
4) If we do keep him, he's going to ask for superstar money and why should we pay a guy 20+ million a year to give us 15/5 on a .500 tea, when he doesn't even complement Porzingis all that well.

nyknickzingis wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Its funny because the guy I am tiring of is Jennings. Rose since coming back has at times tried to score too much but some of that is because guys have been out or nothing else is working. Jennings warts have been showing. He really thrives as a back up but recently has not looked as good. It is a long season. Both guys are on a one year deal. I think of the two Rose is the keeper

My concern with Rose are follows

1) He's got bad intangibles as a point guard. All point guards on ring teams or contenders have great intangibles.
2) He's got no jumpshot or 3 ball. Too easy to hurt us in a playoff setting when teams can design specific defenses for that.
3) He's a great driver but has tunnel vision. Refuses to look and even see the open man.
4) If we do keep him, he's going to ask for superstar money and why should we pay a guy 20+ million a year to give us 15/5 on a .500 tea, when he doesn't even complement Porzingis all that well.

I think he compliments porzingis more than most realize. He breaks down defenses and takes a ton of pressure off of porzingis. He's not a pass first player but his ability to make plays opens things up. It has a domino effect. It's more valuable than just having a facilitator that might think pass first but can't really create plays at will.

Lol at noah being tradable....what exactly do you think we could get for rose? Anyway i agree with rose complimenting KP, he's actually perfect for him we just dont see enough high PnR. Past first pg's are all good, then again think of the elite teams-cavs, dubbs, celtics, raps, spurs, rockets, thunder, all except spurs are shoot first pg's. Better to have a player that creates and breaks down the defense they are what every elite team needs

nyknickzingis wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:4) If we do keep him, he's going to ask for superstar money and why should we pay a guy 20+ million a year to give us 15/5 on a .500 tea, when he doesn't even complement Porzingis all that well.

Hes averaging 17.5pts 4.5 assists but those stats are skewed because he has had a few games ge left after 10 minutes i think second half of the season he will be around 19-20pts 6 assista which is worth paying for.

sidneydeane wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:4) If we do keep him, he's going to ask for superstar money and why should we pay a guy 20+ million a year to give us 15/5 on a .500 tea, when he doesn't even complement Porzingis all that well.

Hes averaging 17.5pts 4.5 assists but those stats are skewed because he has had a few games ge left after 10 minutes i think second half of the season he will be around 19-20pts 6 assista which is worth paying for.

But he's brutally inefficient from the field. He's shooting .255 from 3 point range and .461 from 2 point range (the worst team in the league is .458 on 2 pointers and the good teams are over .500.) Like NYK was saying, he's great at driving to the basket but the tunnel vision is terrible. His FT shooting and assists help his efficiency a bit but he's still below average. His offensive rating is as good as the 22nd best team (103 points per 100 possessions). Then add to that his injury risk, and I want no part of him at the kind of salary he'll demand. If we could get a pick for him, that would be great.

Rose has a high usage rate and is very one on one oriented. Of course with his great driving skills and high usage rate he will put up good numbers. But what about wins? The Knicks went 0-3 without KP and having a winning record with him. That's a player worth paying max money or 20+ million a year for. Melo - for all his faults - the Knicks are winless without him. So these are your two cornerstone guys. You just can't pay a player like Rose who does not bring the intangibles or valuable skillsets required around a team built with KP/Melo as the top 2, you just can not pay a guy like that 20 or 25 million a year. I rather have some bench depth and a role player starting at point guard.

Think of it this way. We have a better Porzingis this year. Melo's still an all-star level player (whether he makes it or not). Yet adding Rose, who is this very good individual player, has not led the Knicks to any better record than a year ago when Jose was our point guard. I am not putting it all on Rose, but some of it is. He does not shoot well. He does not pass much. He often misses wide open teammates as he has tunnel vision when he drives. He does not defend, The biggest thing is as the point guard he should be the leader of the team and he rarely shows any of that. Think of Jason Kidd's time as a Knick. The guy was way past his prime and we saw leadership and impact from him. That's just not there with Rose, in his athletic prime. His game does not lead to wins, and that is why I think Chicago sold him off so cheap. He's in his prime, and playing very well individually. Yet he was sold for pretty cheap. I think we're seeing why.

I'd like us to get someone better, of a higher level, who can play the game Baker did last night in the 4th. High IQ. Good passing. Tough physical defense. Able to shoot from outside. Push the ball up the floor. I know Baker is not a NBA level starter. So look for one who is, who brings those qualities. That's what we need more than Rose's game. Come to think of it, I wish we had gotten someone like Dellavedova this past summer.

nyknickzingis wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Its funny because the guy I am tiring of is Jennings. Rose since coming back has at times tried to score too much but some of that is because guys have been out or nothing else is working. Jennings warts have been showing. He really thrives as a back up but recently has not looked as good. It is a long season. Both guys are on a one year deal. I think of the two Rose is the keeper

My concern with Rose are follows

1) He's got bad intangibles as a point guard. All point guards on ring teams or contenders have great intangibles.
2) He's got no jumpshot or 3 ball. Too easy to hurt us in a playoff setting when teams can design specific defenses for that.
3) He's a great driver but has tunnel vision. Refuses to look and even see the open man.
4) If we do keep him, he's going to ask for superstar money and why should we pay a guy 20+ million a year to give us 15/5 on a .500 tea, when he doesn't even complement Porzingis all that well.

1) Like Rondo (Celtics '08) or Jason Williams (Heat '06)?
2) I've seen evidence that he can hit enough jumpers to keep the defense honest, but no he's not Steph Curry on the perimeter. But if your desire is to find a perfect, complete PG good luck with that unless you want to roll the dice on an aging/injury prone Chris Paul or if you think Jrue Holiday is an upgrade.
3) I totally disagree with this. How many point blank layups has Noah blown this season. Prior to the season I heard a pundit say the scouting report last season was to not contest Noah on layups because he misses a high percentage of them. I thought this sounded like BS until watching him every game this season. So I can understand Rose taking his chances on himself versus feeding Noah. Now this tunnel vision regarding everyone else I don't know about that. I don't recall seeing him ignore many open players when driving to the hoop.
4) That remains to be seen. He can ask for whatever he wants, the market will dictate his salary and there aren't many desirable teams in need of a PG.

sidneydeane wrote:Lol at noah being tradable....what exactly do you think we could get for rose? Anyway i agree with rose complimenting KP, he's actually perfect for him we just dont see enough high PnR. Past first pg's are all good, then again think of the elite teams-cavs, dubbs, celtics, raps, spurs, rockets, thunder, all except spurs are shoot first pg's. Better to have a player that creates and breaks down the defense they are what every elite team needs

I agree. Of course we would all love to have a John Stockton clone but where are you going to find such a PG?

Welpee wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Its funny because the guy I am tiring of is Jennings. Rose since coming back has at times tried to score too much but some of that is because guys have been out or nothing else is working. Jennings warts have been showing. He really thrives as a back up but recently has not looked as good. It is a long season. Both guys are on a one year deal. I think of the two Rose is the keeper

My concern with Rose are follows

1) He's got bad intangibles as a point guard. All point guards on ring teams or contenders have great intangibles.
2) He's got no jumpshot or 3 ball. Too easy to hurt us in a playoff setting when teams can design specific defenses for that.
3) He's a great driver but has tunnel vision. Refuses to look and even see the open man.
4) If we do keep him, he's going to ask for superstar money and why should we pay a guy 20+ million a year to give us 15/5 on a .500 tea, when he doesn't even complement Porzingis all that well.

1) Like Rondo (Celtics '08) or Jason Williams (Heat '06)?
2) I've seen evidence that he can hit enough jumpers to keep the defense honest, but no he's not Steph Curry on the perimeter. But if your desire is to find a perfect, complete PG good luck with that unless you want to roll the dice on an aging/injury prone Chris Paul or if you think Jrue Holiday is an upgrade.
3) I totally disagree with this. How many point blank layups has Noah blown this season. Prior to the season I heard a pundit say the scouting report last season was to not contest Noah on layups because he misses a high percentage of them. I thought this sounded like BS until watching him every game this season. So I can understand Rose taking his chances on himself versus feeding Noah. Now this tunnel vision regarding everyone else I don't know about that. I don't recall seeing him ignore many open players when driving to the hoop.
4) That remains to be seen. He can ask for whatever he wants, the market will dictate his salary and there aren't many desirable teams in need of a PG.

#3 - Noah is shooting 54% on shoots at the rim (Rose is at 55%).

Bonn1997 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Its funny because the guy I am tiring of is Jennings. Rose since coming back has at times tried to score too much but some of that is because guys have been out or nothing else is working. Jennings warts have been showing. He really thrives as a back up but recently has not looked as good. It is a long season. Both guys are on a one year deal. I think of the two Rose is the keeper

My concern with Rose are follows

1) He's got bad intangibles as a point guard. All point guards on ring teams or contenders have great intangibles.
2) He's got no jumpshot or 3 ball. Too easy to hurt us in a playoff setting when teams can design specific defenses for that.
3) He's a great driver but has tunnel vision. Refuses to look and even see the open man.
4) If we do keep him, he's going to ask for superstar money and why should we pay a guy 20+ million a year to give us 15/5 on a .500 tea, when he doesn't even complement Porzingis all that well.

1) Like Rondo (Celtics '08) or Jason Williams (Heat '06)?
2) I've seen evidence that he can hit enough jumpers to keep the defense honest, but no he's not Steph Curry on the perimeter. But if your desire is to find a perfect, complete PG good luck with that unless you want to roll the dice on an aging/injury prone Chris Paul or if you think Jrue Holiday is an upgrade.
3) I totally disagree with this. How many point blank layups has Noah blown this season. Prior to the season I heard a pundit say the scouting report last season was to not contest Noah on layups because he misses a high percentage of them. I thought this sounded like BS until watching him every game this season. So I can understand Rose taking his chances on himself versus feeding Noah. Now this tunnel vision regarding everyone else I don't know about that. I don't recall seeing him ignore many open players when driving to the hoop.
4) That remains to be seen. He can ask for whatever he wants, the market will dictate his salary and there aren't many desirable teams in need of a PG.

#3 - Noah is shooting 54% on shoots at the rim (Rose is at 55%).

That's shocking because I've seen him blow a ton of layups. When he has a running start and gets a wide open dunk he's fine, otherwise...

I am optimistic on both. And optimistic that their best ball for this team is still ahead

Right now Rose is pressing. I think he has a winning attitude

Hornacek is right though. She. Rose drives he needs to seek contact if he wants calls and we should want them. They're the most efficient team to score. They soften the defense and it is the best way for us to transition to defense. 3 pointers less so. And driving and missing layup a w no fouls is the worst bc the other team is off to the races

I am very glad to see his speed back. His present issues are easily fixed.

Noah is trending well too (except for his shoulder).

Knixkik wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Its funny because the guy I am tiring of is Jennings. Rose since coming back has at times tried to score too much but some of that is because guys have been out or nothing else is working. Jennings warts have been showing. He really thrives as a back up but recently has not looked as good. It is a long season. Both guys are on a one year deal. I think of the two Rose is the keeper

My concern with Rose are follows

1) He's got bad intangibles as a point guard. All point guards on ring teams or contenders have great intangibles.
2) He's got no jumpshot or 3 ball. Too easy to hurt us in a playoff setting when teams can design specific defenses for that.
3) He's a great driver but has tunnel vision. Refuses to look and even see the open man.
4) If we do keep him, he's going to ask for superstar money and why should we pay a guy 20+ million a year to give us 15/5 on a .500 tea, when he doesn't even complement Porzingis all that well.

I think he compliments porzingis more than most realize. He breaks down defenses and takes a ton of pressure off of porzingis. He's not a pass first player but his ability to make plays opens things up. It has a domino effect. It's more valuable than just having a facilitator that might think pass first but can't really create plays at will.

Rose has already shown he has the ability to pass first, set up players, and do everything a solid pg can do..

If he would stop avoiding contact, it would change a whole lot of things. His ppg would go up, teams would be in foul trouble early, getting other bigs in foul trouble,Less fast breaks off his misses.

he just doesn't understand the impact he would have. He's so fast he's a blur to defenders and the ref

Does anyone know our record when all 3 of Melo, KP, and rose play? It has to be pretty good, and terrible when 1 is out. That's more a reflection on the supporting cast and their inability to step up beyond their usual roles.

IMO we need to let Jeff continue to coach up guys like Rose. He's working on him but it's not easy to change old habits. The raw talent Rose has can be useful and it just needs to be refined and tweaked. Jeff knows what needs to happen and he's been in Rose's ear. Let's see how it works out.

We've seen progress from Kuz and Holiday. Baker looked great. Willy still needs work but you can see the talent. Jeff has a LOT of work to do with so many players. It's gonna take time but I'm starting to believe more and more in Jeff's abilities.

nyknickzingis wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Its funny because the guy I am tiring of is Jennings. Rose since coming back has at times tried to score too much but some of that is because guys have been out or nothing else is working. Jennings warts have been showing. He really thrives as a back up but recently has not looked as good. It is a long season. Both guys are on a one year deal. I think of the two Rose is the keeper

My concern with Rose are follows

1) He's got bad intangibles as a point guard. All point guards on ring teams or contenders have great intangibles.
2) He's got no jumpshot or 3 ball. Too easy to hurt us in a playoff setting when teams can design specific defenses for that.
3) He's a great driver but has tunnel vision. Refuses to look and even see the open man.
4) If we do keep him, he's going to ask for superstar money and why should we pay a guy 20+ million a year to give us 15/5 on a .500 tea, when he doesn't even complement Porzingis all that well.

1)he's a scorer and thats how he impacts the game.
2)wrong on the jumper. He's shown an excellent mid range game. Albeit streaky, but he's shooting 41% from midrange and while not fantastic its been enough to score in bunches and keep defenders honest.
3)a) fair b) focusing on finishing does not = "refusing." Rose is shooting 55% around the rim and as we know from watching him thats often attacking the teeth of the defense. "Refuse" is dishonest. He's focusing on something else.
4) Thats 100% fair. The simple answer may be he's the best option out there for the money (especially when you consider what guys got this offseason). That being said we have another half+ of the season to evaluate. Having chemistry like KG/Pierce/Ray had right out of the gate is so rare. At some point I at least expect KP to anticipate Rose's drives better so he can follow him to the basket for easy garbage points.

Part of the reason I am still optimistic is they are still playing hard. They really grinded vs. the Bucks after the tough home loss that was won on a shot that should not have counted. Melo is nursing a shoulder and gets 10 dimes and played his best defense of the year. They are not a disciplined bunch and that's easy to see because of their defense, but they arent quitting. Interesting how a day after Jennings said "we have to hold ourselves accountable" he got yanked after 4 dreadful minutes for Ron Baker. There are some stories to follow and not all good. Coach has to mix things up a big and that is always a challenge as someone's feelings are at risk of getting hurt. Fingers crossed but overall I see mostly positive. The negative is unavoidable when you dont play well. They are pros.. they know they drill. Question is can they take it?

fishmike wrote:Part of the reason I am still optimistic is they are still playing hard. They really grinded vs. the Bucks after the tough home loss that was won on a shot that should not have counted. Melo is nursing a shoulder and gets 10 dimes and played his best defense of the year. They are not a disciplined bunch and that's easy to see because of their defense, but they arent quitting. Interesting how a day after Jennings said "we have to hold ourselves accountable" he got yanked after 4 dreadful minutes for Ron Baker. There are some stories to follow and not all good. Coach has to mix things up a big and that is always a challenge as someone's feelings are at risk of getting hurt. Fingers crossed but overall I see mostly positive. The negative is unavoidable when you dont play well. They are pros.. they know they drill. Question is can they take it?

How can these guys not look at a tape of a game they had 29 assist and realize, Hey, if we move the ball, were going to win majority of the time.

This sqaud will never be a good defensive team, but if they can make enough key stops in spurts, the offensive system can put up 110 points, just by making the extra pass which they did majority of the night against the bucks.

Melo looked like Labron last night the way he was whipping those passes.

It's also on the coach to know when and who to play , I thought JH has done a really solid job, but he does go a little overboard sometimes, and that has cost us a few games