Knicks · I think one thing is obvious (page 1)

The team as composed is not good. I thought we'd be ok as is to make the playoffs but our defense is so bad I no longer believe that. This is a lottery team that does not have the right set of players to play two way basketball to win. Either make some wholesale changes or dump players for picks

The supporting cast is poor compared to a team like Indiana. We just don't have enough talent around our top 3 players. We need an elite offensive player off the bench and some lock down defenders and we have neither.

A lottery team is fine by me. We have our pick and some pieces that could generate interest.

What's worrisome is how the cast keeps changing, the coaches too, but the bad behavior, lack of effort and discipline remains through the years.

There is one constant.

We have a starting PG who does not excel at passing, and an aging starting big man in Noah who is no longer much of an offensive or defensive threat. That has to change if we want to move to the next level. You add a scorer like Melo into the mix, and you end up needing an undrafted rookie to run the offense.

Knicksfan wrote:A lottery team is fine by me. We have our pick and some pieces that could generate interest.

What's worrisome is how the cast keeps changing, the coaches too, but the bad behavior, lack of effort and discipline remains through the years.

The only constant since Feb 2011 is Melo? The whole team, players, coaches, even assistant coaches have been turned over a few times since then. Melo does play hurt at times and has a well-rounded game every now and again, but most of the time, he has a flat-footed attitude towards defense, can this be affecting the rest of the team.

It would be nice to have players capable of playing back to backs- don't get why they're so tired on second games, especially when they don't play any defense what so ever

BRIGGS wrote:The team as composed is not good. I thought we'd be ok as is to make the playoffs but our defense is so bad I no longer believe that. This is a lottery team that does not have the right set of players to play two way basketball to win. Either make some wholesale changes or dump players for picks

I disagree. This is a team that has only played a few months together. They've looked very good and very bad in stretches. The young newcomers look sensational. Kuz, Herman, Baker all have had their moments. Injuries have contributed to a few losses.

Given what we've seen in recent games, the Knicks are at a bit of a cross-roads. They can either continue with the old guard or shed a few of them and run with the younger guys and still make the playoffs.

My guess is that the Knicks will explore transformational trades but eventually maybe just fine tune what we have on a short-term basis. And by transformational trade, I'm not implying switching out one player for a like player.

Rose and Jennings being expiring contracts might garner consideration in a salary dump scenario. Thomas, Vujacic, Plumlee, and N'Dour could also be on the bubble assuming the right trade came along.

Atlanta's Sefaloshia, Dallas' Devin Harris, Miami's Tyler Johnson or Derrick Williams would all add some defense and stability to the current mix, IMO.

fwk00 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:The team as composed is not good. I thought we'd be ok as is to make the playoffs but our defense is so bad I no longer believe that. This is a lottery team that does not have the right set of players to play two way basketball to win. Either make some wholesale changes or dump players for picks

I disagree. This is a team that has only played a few months together. They've looked very good and very bad in stretches. The young newcomers look sensational. Kuz, Herman, Baker all have had their moments. Injuries have contributed to a few losses.

Given what we've seen in recent games, the Knicks are at a bit of a cross-roads. They can either continue with the old guard or shed a few of them and run with the younger guys and still make the playoffs.

My guess is that the Knicks will explore transformational trades but eventually maybe just fine tune what we have on a short-term basis. And by transformational trade, I'm not implying switching out one player for a like player.

Rose and Jennings being expiring contracts might garner consideration in a salary dump scenario. Thomas, Vujacic, Plumlee, and N'Dour could also be on the bubble assuming the right trade came along.

Atlanta's Sefaloshia, Dallas' Devin Harris, Miami's Tyler Johnson or Derrick Williams would all add some defense and stability to the current mix, IMO.

Yeah but you should be getting better after a few months -- not worse. The names you mentioned there-- nothing transformational about those guys

1-7 last eight , at least the team is watchable most nights. If anything, I could see a addition by trade deadline more so than a sell off

After next season, KP should be a consistent force in this league. If no one panics, there will also be good, young, role players on the roster as well.

Westbrook will be able to walk at that time, if he can't make anything happen in OKC, and KP is tearing up the league. With cap space its certainly possible that Westbrook would seriously consider NY (and the big stage) if the team doesn't make the wrong moves between now and then.

Not saying we go all LeBron for Westbrook like in 2010, don't really have to if we don't overcommit to the wrong players long term.

BRIGGS wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:The team as composed is not good. I thought we'd be ok as is to make the playoffs but our defense is so bad I no longer believe that. This is a lottery team that does not have the right set of players to play two way basketball to win. Either make some wholesale changes or dump players for picks

I disagree. This is a team that has only played a few months together. They've looked very good and very bad in stretches. The young newcomers look sensational. Kuz, Herman, Baker all have had their moments. Injuries have contributed to a few losses.

Given what we've seen in recent games, the Knicks are at a bit of a cross-roads. They can either continue with the old guard or shed a few of them and run with the younger guys and still make the playoffs.

My guess is that the Knicks will explore transformational trades but eventually maybe just fine tune what we have on a short-term basis. And by transformational trade, I'm not implying switching out one player for a like player.

Rose and Jennings being expiring contracts might garner consideration in a salary dump scenario. Thomas, Vujacic, Plumlee, and N'Dour could also be on the bubble assuming the right trade came along.

Atlanta's Sefaloshia, Dallas' Devin Harris, Miami's Tyler Johnson or Derrick Williams would all add some defense and stability to the current mix, IMO.

Yeah but you should be getting better after a few months -- not worse. The names you mentioned there-- nothing transformational about those guys

No, they aren't transformational as individual players but if we added a player or two who can play some defense or bring energystart to finish I think we get transformational basketball. Right now we are giving games away. Eliminate a culprit or two, run with another two-way player or two and I think the team goes two or three rounds into the playoffs. That's all good by me.

GustavBahler wrote:After next season, KP should be a consistent force in this league. If no one panics, there will also be good, young, role players on the roster as well.

Westbrook will be able to walk at that time, if he can't make anything happen in OKC, and KP is tearing up the league. With cap space its certainly possible that Westbrook would seriously consider NY (and the big stage) if the team doesn't make the wrong moves between now and then.

Not saying we go all LeBron for Westbrook like in 2010, don't really have to if we don't overcommit to the wrong players long term.

The problem is with the new CBA any great player is going to get 200 mil to stay. So the idea of getting a player of Melo's caliber is a distant memory. At best you would have to do what the Knicks actually did to get Melo and pay a premium in picks and players for the right to pay a star player of Melo's caliber.

More than ever teams are going to have to rely on the draft to be good.

wargames wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:After next season, KP should be a consistent force in this league. If no one panics, there will also be good, young, role players on the roster as well.

Westbrook will be able to walk at that time, if he can't make anything happen in OKC, and KP is tearing up the league. With cap space its certainly possible that Westbrook would seriously consider NY (and the big stage) if the team doesn't make the wrong moves between now and then.

Not saying we go all LeBron for Westbrook like in 2010, don't really have to if we don't overcommit to the wrong players long term.

The problem is with the new CBA any great player is going to get 200 mil to stay. So the idea of getting a player of Melo's caliber is a distant memory. At best you would have to do what the Knicks actually did to get Melo and pay a premium in picks and players for the right to pay a star player of Melo's caliber.

More than ever teams are going to have to rely on the draft to be good.

Durant would disagree. He could have stayed in OKC for more money. Durant signed a 2 year deal, just like LeBron. This is the new NBA, flexibility. I seriously doubt this will end players taking less money for a better shot at a ring. Salaries will be going up across the board.

Knicks just need to be smart, stay on course, and hopefully the chips fall in place for this team, as constructed, to make a little playoff noise the next couple years. Other than Cleveland, Boston, Toronto, and maybe Milwaukee, i don't see any other team preventing this group from being a top 5 or 6 seed the next couple of years, if things come together. This team isn't going to win a title. But we have our draft picks every season, which will land in the mid-1st round the next couple of years at least. Maybe one of them can land the next Giannis or Leonard, who both went 15 and 16 in their respective drafts. Odds are we won't, but there will be future all-stars available in the draft where we draft, we just need to find them. Just stay the course for now. We will add pieces as we go when the opportunity is there and hopefully surround KP with quality talent when he is ready to lead a team.

GustavBahler wrote:

wargames wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:After next season, KP should be a consistent force in this league. If no one panics, there will also be good, young, role players on the roster as well.

Westbrook will be able to walk at that time, if he can't make anything happen in OKC, and KP is tearing up the league. With cap space its certainly possible that Westbrook would seriously consider NY (and the big stage) if the team doesn't make the wrong moves between now and then.

Not saying we go all LeBron for Westbrook like in 2010, don't really have to if we don't overcommit to the wrong players long term.

The problem is with the new CBA any great player is going to get 200 mil to stay. So the idea of getting a player of Melo's caliber is a distant memory. At best you would have to do what the Knicks actually did to get Melo and pay a premium in picks and players for the right to pay a star player of Melo's caliber.

More than ever teams are going to have to rely on the draft to be good.

Durant would disagree. He could have stayed in OKC for more money. Durant signed a 2 year deal, just like LeBron. This is the new NBA, flexibility. I seriously doubt this will end players taking less money for a better shot at a ring. Salaries will be going up across the board.

Ok..... but we're not the GSW. The GSW won a championship with a team core composed up mostly of people they had drafted. Also the amount of money Durant is leaving is about 100 less than what is being added into the new CBA.

wargames wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

wargames wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:After next season, KP should be a consistent force in this league. If no one panics, there will also be good, young, role players on the roster as well.

Westbrook will be able to walk at that time, if he can't make anything happen in OKC, and KP is tearing up the league. With cap space its certainly possible that Westbrook would seriously consider NY (and the big stage) if the team doesn't make the wrong moves between now and then.

Not saying we go all LeBron for Westbrook like in 2010, don't really have to if we don't overcommit to the wrong players long term.

The problem is with the new CBA any great player is going to get 200 mil to stay. So the idea of getting a player of Melo's caliber is a distant memory. At best you would have to do what the Knicks actually did to get Melo and pay a premium in picks and players for the right to pay a star player of Melo's caliber.

More than ever teams are going to have to rely on the draft to be good.

Durant would disagree. He could have stayed in OKC for more money. Durant signed a 2 year deal, just like LeBron. This is the new NBA, flexibility. I seriously doubt this will end players taking less money for a better shot at a ring. Salaries will be going up across the board.

Ok..... but we're not the GSW. The GSW won a championship with a team core composed up mostly of people they had drafted. Also the amount of money Durant is leaving is about 100 less than what is being added into the new CBA.

You're right we aren't contenders. Goes back to my original point about not going for the quick fix. After next season, there is a good chance that KP will be an elite player, not even in his prime yet.

If after next season, the Knicks have a bench consisting of quality role players on reasonable contracts, a young Superstar, and plenty of cap room, there will be an interest from other elite players to join the Knicks. This isnt an unrealistic expectation. Conditions have to be right.

We build through the draft, at the same time we don't surround KP with aging, injury prone stars on long term deals. Building for the future while putting the franchise in an opportunity to land a big time FA, maybe two in their primes.

Durant and James signed those 2 year deals, as well as Westbrook, for competitive reasons as well as financial. They wanted to make sure they weren't in a bad situation long term, a bad fit. I expect that trend to continue to some degree.

GustavBahler wrote:

wargames wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

wargames wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:After next season, KP should be a consistent force in this league. If no one panics, there will also be good, young, role players on the roster as well.

Westbrook will be able to walk at that time, if he can't make anything happen in OKC, and KP is tearing up the league. With cap space its certainly possible that Westbrook would seriously consider NY (and the big stage) if the team doesn't make the wrong moves between now and then.

Not saying we go all LeBron for Westbrook like in 2010, don't really have to if we don't overcommit to the wrong players long term.

The problem is with the new CBA any great player is going to get 200 mil to stay. So the idea of getting a player of Melo's caliber is a distant memory. At best you would have to do what the Knicks actually did to get Melo and pay a premium in picks and players for the right to pay a star player of Melo's caliber.

More than ever teams are going to have to rely on the draft to be good.

Durant would disagree. He could have stayed in OKC for more money. Durant signed a 2 year deal, just like LeBron. This is the new NBA, flexibility. I seriously doubt this will end players taking less money for a better shot at a ring. Salaries will be going up across the board.

Ok..... but we're not the GSW. The GSW won a championship with a team core composed up mostly of people they had drafted. Also the amount of money Durant is leaving is about 100 less than what is being added into the new CBA.

You're right we aren't contenders. Goes back to my original point about not going for the quick fix. After next season, there is a good chance that KP will be an elite player, not even in his prime yet.

If after next season, the Knicks have a bench consisting of quality role players on reasonable contracts, a young Superstar, and plenty of cap room, there will be an interest from other elite players to join the Knicks. This isnt an unrealistic expectation. Conditions have to be right.

We build through the draft, at the same time we don't surround KP with aging, injury prone stars on long term deals. Building for the future while putting the franchise in an opportunity to land a big time FA, maybe two in their primes.

Durant and James signed those 2 year deals, as well as Westbrook, for competitive reasons as well as financial. They wanted to make sure they weren't in a bad situation long term, a bad fit. I expect that trend to continue to some degree.

I agree with most of this. Think is the short term deals they signed will also enable them to resign with their bird-right team for a much higher scale than if they went longer term.

I don't know how GSW can afford to pay Curry, Durant and Klay the big money with the new deal.
And Im passing on Chris Paul unless he wants to take a pay cut.
Gordon Haywood is intriguing but he can command a big deal in Utah or find his way to Boston. White kid, Wicked Boston, his college coach and a good on at that is very attractive for the kid.

I think the crux of the problem is that Melo and Rose don't fit- they both have the same flaw as and strengths (and I said this when all the pundits were saying Melo should sign with the Bulls). We have our top two vets playing abysmal defense. Both like the ball, both are volume scorers, neither are particularly vocal leaders.

meloanyk wrote:1-7 last eight , at least the team is watchable most nights. If anything, I could see a addition by trade deadline more so than a sell off

they arent making the playoffs unless they trade their first round pick

The next couple of years? Look how old Melo and Noah look , Rose could be gone at any time. I'm sorry but I think this roster has maybe a 1 year window where they can be pretty good and than its off the deep end

Knixkik wrote:Knicks just need to be smart, stay on course, and hopefully the chips fall in place for this team, as constructed, to make a little playoff noise the next couple years. Other than Cleveland, Boston, Toronto, and maybe Milwaukee, i don't see any other team preventing this group from being a top 5 or 6 seed the next couple of years, if things come together. This team isn't going to win a title. But we have our draft picks every season, which will land in the mid-1st round the next couple of years at least. Maybe one of them can land the next Giannis or Leonard, who both went 15 and 16 in their respective drafts. Odds are we won't, but there will be future all-stars available in the draft where we draft, we just need to find them. Just stay the course for now. We will add pieces as we go when the opportunity is there and hopefully surround KP with quality talent when he is ready to lead a team.