Knicks · 2017 NBA Draft Thread (page 22)
nixluva wrote:smackeddog wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:How i see the top prospects right now as far as upside and downside. Just trying to figure out the gambles and sure things here.Fultz- Upside: Lillard-level scoring PG, downside: maybe a better D Russell? Very little downside.
Ball- Upside: Poor man's prime J Kidd, downside: better shooting Rubio.
Jackson- Upside: Paul George, downside: Maybe a later career Shawn Marion, but likely closer to P George.
Tatum- Upside: Prime Danny Granger, downside: younger L Deng.
Smith- Upside: Kyle Lowry, downside: modern-day D Rose
Monk- Upside: Bradley Beal/McCollum: downside Eric Gordon
Fox- Upside: Poor man's Wall, downside: Rubio
Isaac- Upside: Rashard Lewis, downside: Anthony Randolph (biggest bust potential)
Ntilikina: Upside: Better Jrue Holiday, downside, maybe Mudiay?
Markkannen: Upside: Better Ryan Anderson, downside: Ryan Anderson (not much downside)
Bridges: Upside: Prime Larry Johnson, downside: Jae CrowderThat seems pretty fair.
I'm a little amused that so many guys here who want to get rid of Melo to rebuild seem to be on the Tatum train. Isn't Tatum very similar to Melo? He isos, he holds the ball with his little jab step moves... very similar to Melo... except he probably won't be as good...
Part of the reason for wanting rid of melo is his age and that he has become stubborn and refuses to be coached. I would hope that Tatum would be more shapeable.
I've watched Tatum many times and he's more UNSELFISH than Melo. I think he can fit into a team concept better. Yes he is adept at ISO but no one ever said a player should not have that skill. Tatum mixes it up well from what I've seen. He does have similar skills to Melo. I just think he's a better fit.
Melo averaged 23ppg 10rpg 2.2apg and won a championship his freshman year in college.
Tatum is at 16.8ppg 7rpg 2.2apg with very similar shooting, assist, blocks, steals, even foul numbers to Melo.
Not sure what evidence you have he's less selfish, but I'd be fascinated to see it.
crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:smackeddog wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:How i see the top prospects right now as far as upside and downside. Just trying to figure out the gambles and sure things here.Fultz- Upside: Lillard-level scoring PG, downside: maybe a better D Russell? Very little downside.
Ball- Upside: Poor man's prime J Kidd, downside: better shooting Rubio.
Jackson- Upside: Paul George, downside: Maybe a later career Shawn Marion, but likely closer to P George.
Tatum- Upside: Prime Danny Granger, downside: younger L Deng.
Smith- Upside: Kyle Lowry, downside: modern-day D Rose
Monk- Upside: Bradley Beal/McCollum: downside Eric Gordon
Fox- Upside: Poor man's Wall, downside: Rubio
Isaac- Upside: Rashard Lewis, downside: Anthony Randolph (biggest bust potential)
Ntilikina: Upside: Better Jrue Holiday, downside, maybe Mudiay?
Markkannen: Upside: Better Ryan Anderson, downside: Ryan Anderson (not much downside)
Bridges: Upside: Prime Larry Johnson, downside: Jae CrowderThat seems pretty fair.
I'm a little amused that so many guys here who want to get rid of Melo to rebuild seem to be on the Tatum train. Isn't Tatum very similar to Melo? He isos, he holds the ball with his little jab step moves... very similar to Melo... except he probably won't be as good...
Part of the reason for wanting rid of melo is his age and that he has become stubborn and refuses to be coached. I would hope that Tatum would be more shapeable.
I've watched Tatum many times and he's more UNSELFISH than Melo. I think he can fit into a team concept better. Yes he is adept at ISO but no one ever said a player should not have that skill. Tatum mixes it up well from what I've seen. He does have similar skills to Melo. I just think he's a better fit.
Melo averaged 23ppg 10rpg 2.2apg and won a championship his freshman year in college.
Tatum is at 16.8ppg 7rpg 2.2apg with very similar shooting, assist, blocks, steals, even foul numbers to Melo.
Not sure what evidence you have he's less selfish, but I'd be fascinated to see it.
SIMPLE the kid gives it up more and picks his spots! He's not ball dominant on his team. Assist numbers don't always tell the whole story.
Melo had a per 40 FGA of 19.2 whereas Tatum is at 15.2
nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:smackeddog wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:How i see the top prospects right now as far as upside and downside. Just trying to figure out the gambles and sure things here.Fultz- Upside: Lillard-level scoring PG, downside: maybe a better D Russell? Very little downside.
Ball- Upside: Poor man's prime J Kidd, downside: better shooting Rubio.
Jackson- Upside: Paul George, downside: Maybe a later career Shawn Marion, but likely closer to P George.
Tatum- Upside: Prime Danny Granger, downside: younger L Deng.
Smith- Upside: Kyle Lowry, downside: modern-day D Rose
Monk- Upside: Bradley Beal/McCollum: downside Eric Gordon
Fox- Upside: Poor man's Wall, downside: Rubio
Isaac- Upside: Rashard Lewis, downside: Anthony Randolph (biggest bust potential)
Ntilikina: Upside: Better Jrue Holiday, downside, maybe Mudiay?
Markkannen: Upside: Better Ryan Anderson, downside: Ryan Anderson (not much downside)
Bridges: Upside: Prime Larry Johnson, downside: Jae CrowderThat seems pretty fair.
I'm a little amused that so many guys here who want to get rid of Melo to rebuild seem to be on the Tatum train. Isn't Tatum very similar to Melo? He isos, he holds the ball with his little jab step moves... very similar to Melo... except he probably won't be as good...
Part of the reason for wanting rid of melo is his age and that he has become stubborn and refuses to be coached. I would hope that Tatum would be more shapeable.
I've watched Tatum many times and he's more UNSELFISH than Melo. I think he can fit into a team concept better. Yes he is adept at ISO but no one ever said a player should not have that skill. Tatum mixes it up well from what I've seen. He does have similar skills to Melo. I just think he's a better fit.
Melo averaged 23ppg 10rpg 2.2apg and won a championship his freshman year in college.
Tatum is at 16.8ppg 7rpg 2.2apg with very similar shooting, assist, blocks, steals, even foul numbers to Melo.
Not sure what evidence you have he's less selfish, but I'd be fascinated to see it.
SIMPLE the kid gives it up more and picks his spots! He's not ball dominant on his team. Assist numbers don't always tell the whole story.
Melo had a per 40 FGA of 19.2 whereas Tatum is at 15.2
Their shooting percentages are almost identical no matter how you slice them, so 4 more field goal attempts per 40min doesn't mean that much, that could be team makeup as much as anything else.
Still waiting for evidence that he gives up the ball more often. They're about as statistically equal as you can be, Melo just took a few more shots and rebounded much better. Unless Tatum is unselfishly not rebounding so his teammates can get them.
crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:smackeddog wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:How i see the top prospects right now as far as upside and downside. Just trying to figure out the gambles and sure things here.Fultz- Upside: Lillard-level scoring PG, downside: maybe a better D Russell? Very little downside.
Ball- Upside: Poor man's prime J Kidd, downside: better shooting Rubio.
Jackson- Upside: Paul George, downside: Maybe a later career Shawn Marion, but likely closer to P George.
Tatum- Upside: Prime Danny Granger, downside: younger L Deng.
Smith- Upside: Kyle Lowry, downside: modern-day D Rose
Monk- Upside: Bradley Beal/McCollum: downside Eric Gordon
Fox- Upside: Poor man's Wall, downside: Rubio
Isaac- Upside: Rashard Lewis, downside: Anthony Randolph (biggest bust potential)
Ntilikina: Upside: Better Jrue Holiday, downside, maybe Mudiay?
Markkannen: Upside: Better Ryan Anderson, downside: Ryan Anderson (not much downside)
Bridges: Upside: Prime Larry Johnson, downside: Jae CrowderThat seems pretty fair.
I'm a little amused that so many guys here who want to get rid of Melo to rebuild seem to be on the Tatum train. Isn't Tatum very similar to Melo? He isos, he holds the ball with his little jab step moves... very similar to Melo... except he probably won't be as good...
Part of the reason for wanting rid of melo is his age and that he has become stubborn and refuses to be coached. I would hope that Tatum would be more shapeable.
I've watched Tatum many times and he's more UNSELFISH than Melo. I think he can fit into a team concept better. Yes he is adept at ISO but no one ever said a player should not have that skill. Tatum mixes it up well from what I've seen. He does have similar skills to Melo. I just think he's a better fit.
Melo averaged 23ppg 10rpg 2.2apg and won a championship his freshman year in college.
Tatum is at 16.8ppg 7rpg 2.2apg with very similar shooting, assist, blocks, steals, even foul numbers to Melo.
Not sure what evidence you have he's less selfish, but I'd be fascinated to see it.
SIMPLE the kid gives it up more and picks his spots! He's not ball dominant on his team. Assist numbers don't always tell the whole story.
Melo had a per 40 FGA of 19.2 whereas Tatum is at 15.2
Their shooting percentages are almost identical no matter how you slice them, so 4 more field goal attempts per 40min doesn't mean that much, that could be team makeup as much as anything else.
Still waiting for evidence that he gives up the ball more often. They're about as statistically equal as you can be, Melo just took a few more shots and rebounded much better. Unless Tatum is unselfishly not rebounding so his teammates can get them.
This isn't about whether Tatum is better than Melo! This is about fit for this team and you seem to not really have a clear picture of how Tatum plays.
He's very similar in skills to Melo but he's not the same personality on the court. Of course all scorers look to get the ball a lot. You want the kid to have some killer instinct but they're not built the same. Tatum has a more slender build. He's more of a finesse player than a power player.
nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:smackeddog wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:How i see the top prospects right now as far as upside and downside. Just trying to figure out the gambles and sure things here.Fultz- Upside: Lillard-level scoring PG, downside: maybe a better D Russell? Very little downside.
Ball- Upside: Poor man's prime J Kidd, downside: better shooting Rubio.
Jackson- Upside: Paul George, downside: Maybe a later career Shawn Marion, but likely closer to P George.
Tatum- Upside: Prime Danny Granger, downside: younger L Deng.
Smith- Upside: Kyle Lowry, downside: modern-day D Rose
Monk- Upside: Bradley Beal/McCollum: downside Eric Gordon
Fox- Upside: Poor man's Wall, downside: Rubio
Isaac- Upside: Rashard Lewis, downside: Anthony Randolph (biggest bust potential)
Ntilikina: Upside: Better Jrue Holiday, downside, maybe Mudiay?
Markkannen: Upside: Better Ryan Anderson, downside: Ryan Anderson (not much downside)
Bridges: Upside: Prime Larry Johnson, downside: Jae CrowderThat seems pretty fair.
I'm a little amused that so many guys here who want to get rid of Melo to rebuild seem to be on the Tatum train. Isn't Tatum very similar to Melo? He isos, he holds the ball with his little jab step moves... very similar to Melo... except he probably won't be as good...
Part of the reason for wanting rid of melo is his age and that he has become stubborn and refuses to be coached. I would hope that Tatum would be more shapeable.
I've watched Tatum many times and he's more UNSELFISH than Melo. I think he can fit into a team concept better. Yes he is adept at ISO but no one ever said a player should not have that skill. Tatum mixes it up well from what I've seen. He does have similar skills to Melo. I just think he's a better fit.
Melo averaged 23ppg 10rpg 2.2apg and won a championship his freshman year in college.
Tatum is at 16.8ppg 7rpg 2.2apg with very similar shooting, assist, blocks, steals, even foul numbers to Melo.
Not sure what evidence you have he's less selfish, but I'd be fascinated to see it.
SIMPLE the kid gives it up more and picks his spots! He's not ball dominant on his team. Assist numbers don't always tell the whole story.
Melo had a per 40 FGA of 19.2 whereas Tatum is at 15.2
Their shooting percentages are almost identical no matter how you slice them, so 4 more field goal attempts per 40min doesn't mean that much, that could be team makeup as much as anything else.
Still waiting for evidence that he gives up the ball more often. They're about as statistically equal as you can be, Melo just took a few more shots and rebounded much better. Unless Tatum is unselfishly not rebounding so his teammates can get them.
This isn't about whether Tatum is better than Melo! This is about fit for this team and you seem to not really have a clear picture of how Tatum plays.
He's very similar in skills to Melo but he's not the same personality on the court. Of course all scorers look to get the ball a lot. You want the kid to have some killer instinct but they're not built the same. Tatum has a more slender build. He's more of a finesse player than a power player.
He still Isos and holds the ball just as much as Melo. Which is what supposedly broke the triangle this year. (Though weirdly it didn't seem to break the triangle when Kobe or MJ did it, though Phil said the same thing about them)
BRIGGS wrote:I guarantee that Jason Tatum--one some NBA teams boards--after his last 4 games--is a numbe5r 1 prospect on some of them. The Cs dont need either of those PGs either.
I agree he's very good. Saying the kid reminds me of Melo is not an insult in my book.
I just think it's funny that people who think Melo's Isos and holding the ball destroyed the offense this year are hyping a kid who Isos and holds the ball.
I think he'll be good. Though I do have some wariness about Duke players in the draft. Lots of busts, including Okafor who we both liked. And Winslow who I liked. Not that those guys are total busts... But they're disappointing so far to be sure.
crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:smackeddog wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:How i see the top prospects right now as far as upside and downside. Just trying to figure out the gambles and sure things here.Fultz- Upside: Lillard-level scoring PG, downside: maybe a better D Russell? Very little downside.
Ball- Upside: Poor man's prime J Kidd, downside: better shooting Rubio.
Jackson- Upside: Paul George, downside: Maybe a later career Shawn Marion, but likely closer to P George.
Tatum- Upside: Prime Danny Granger, downside: younger L Deng.
Smith- Upside: Kyle Lowry, downside: modern-day D Rose
Monk- Upside: Bradley Beal/McCollum: downside Eric Gordon
Fox- Upside: Poor man's Wall, downside: Rubio
Isaac- Upside: Rashard Lewis, downside: Anthony Randolph (biggest bust potential)
Ntilikina: Upside: Better Jrue Holiday, downside, maybe Mudiay?
Markkannen: Upside: Better Ryan Anderson, downside: Ryan Anderson (not much downside)
Bridges: Upside: Prime Larry Johnson, downside: Jae CrowderThat seems pretty fair.
I'm a little amused that so many guys here who want to get rid of Melo to rebuild seem to be on the Tatum train. Isn't Tatum very similar to Melo? He isos, he holds the ball with his little jab step moves... very similar to Melo... except he probably won't be as good...
Part of the reason for wanting rid of melo is his age and that he has become stubborn and refuses to be coached. I would hope that Tatum would be more shapeable.
I've watched Tatum many times and he's more UNSELFISH than Melo. I think he can fit into a team concept better. Yes he is adept at ISO but no one ever said a player should not have that skill. Tatum mixes it up well from what I've seen. He does have similar skills to Melo. I just think he's a better fit.
Melo averaged 23ppg 10rpg 2.2apg and won a championship his freshman year in college.
Tatum is at 16.8ppg 7rpg 2.2apg with very similar shooting, assist, blocks, steals, even foul numbers to Melo.
Not sure what evidence you have he's less selfish, but I'd be fascinated to see it.
SIMPLE the kid gives it up more and picks his spots! He's not ball dominant on his team. Assist numbers don't always tell the whole story.
Melo had a per 40 FGA of 19.2 whereas Tatum is at 15.2
Their shooting percentages are almost identical no matter how you slice them, so 4 more field goal attempts per 40min doesn't mean that much, that could be team makeup as much as anything else.
Still waiting for evidence that he gives up the ball more often. They're about as statistically equal as you can be, Melo just took a few more shots and rebounded much better. Unless Tatum is unselfishly not rebounding so his teammates can get them.
This isn't about whether Tatum is better than Melo! This is about fit for this team and you seem to not really have a clear picture of how Tatum plays.
He's very similar in skills to Melo but he's not the same personality on the court. Of course all scorers look to get the ball a lot. You want the kid to have some killer instinct but they're not built the same. Tatum has a more slender build. He's more of a finesse player than a power player.
He still Isos and holds the ball just as much as Melo. Which is what supposedly broke the triangle this year. (Though weirdly it didn't seem to break the triangle when Kobe or MJ did it, though Phil said the same thing about them)
The reason Phil would complain is when a teammate made a cut and was open you MUST make that pass. There's no reason to force a tougher shot. The entire point of team ball is to get the BEST shot and not just any shot. This is how the Spurs play and basically what the Triangle is about. So Phil who knows all about TEAM BALL from his Knicks Championship team days is only looking to teach his players how to play like that.
Those old Knicks didn't need a system but the Triangle provides a format for team ball and teaching players how to be smarter. It's deeper than PnR. PnR works but not so much when you face the top Defensive teams in the playoffs. You want to have something more to what you do that has more options when the defense stops the initial action. It's just one way to achieve that goal. Not the only way just the way Phil has become most familiar with.
Now ISO is built into the system!!! This is really not a surprise. Phil's issue is not with ISO which is part of the way the Triangle works, but his problem is when the RIGHT play is to draw the defense and make the pass then you MUST DO IT. So the ISO's that the Triangle creates forces the D to respond and if they don't then you can proceed with the ISO possession. The Offense is LITERALLY named the TRIPLE POST OFFENSE, so yeah ISO or a One on One play is going to be at the crux of that, but passing to moving teammates is also at the core of the system.
nixluva wrote:GREAT TANK NIGHT! The Kings won over the Magic and that bumps us into a tie for the 6 spot.
And the twolves won to add further separation from us. 4th spot is now a possibility, and third we have an outside shot at. After the nets game our schedule is absolutely brutal
smackeddog wrote:nixluva wrote:GREAT TANK NIGHT! The Kings won over the Magic and that bumps us into a tie for the 6 spot.And the twolves won to add further separation from us. 4th spot is now a possibility, and third we have an outside shot at. After the nets game our schedule is absolutely brutal
Phoenix has some games against the tank commanders coming up - it's good for us if Phoenix wins, good for us if they lose to Sacramento and Orlando! Phoenix has two games against Sacto
Actually Phoenix has Sacto and Orlando as its next two
AND
Sacto has Phoenix and Orlando...
Saw this on another site, if you open it in a new tab, it's big enough to read:
nixluva wrote:Now after the Knicks won we've gotta hope the Kings beat the Suns in their next game. NYK is just a half game back of the Kings for the 6 spot.
The Kings are really bad, and trying to lose. I doubt we jump ahead of them. The seedings are starting to settle a little bit. We need to keep an eye on New Orleans, Minn, Dallas, and Charlotte to make sure they stay ahead of us. 7 is probably our most likely landing spot.
Knixkik wrote:nixluva wrote:Now after the Knicks won we've gotta hope the Kings beat the Suns in their next game. NYK is just a half game back of the Kings for the 6 spot.The Kings are really bad, and trying to lose. I doubt we jump ahead of them. The seedings are starting to settle a little bit. We need to keep an eye on New Orleans, Minn, Dallas, and Charlotte to make sure they stay ahead of us. 7 is probably our most likely landing spot.
I've been watching the Kings games and they are most definitely trying to win. They just aren't consistent in any thing they do but they play hard and lost some games they led like the Knicks.
nixluva wrote:Knixkik wrote:nixluva wrote:Now after the Knicks won we've gotta hope the Kings beat the Suns in their next game. NYK is just a half game back of the Kings for the 6 spot.The Kings are really bad, and trying to lose. I doubt we jump ahead of them. The seedings are starting to settle a little bit. We need to keep an eye on New Orleans, Minn, Dallas, and Charlotte to make sure they stay ahead of us. 7 is probably our most likely landing spot.
I've been watching the Kings games and they are most definitely trying to win. They just aren't consistent in any thing they do but they play hard and lost some games they led like the Knicks.
Players don't try to lose. Of course they are going to play hard. Whenever we talk about tanking, it's not the players or the coaches. The Kings have been sitting many of their starting players, and will continue to do so. That is what upper management demands of the team, to sit guys and play the young players big minutes, that indicates a team trying to lose games.
Knixkik wrote:nixluva wrote:Knixkik wrote:nixluva wrote:Now after the Knicks won we've gotta hope the Kings beat the Suns in their next game. NYK is just a half game back of the Kings for the 6 spot.The Kings are really bad, and trying to lose. I doubt we jump ahead of them. The seedings are starting to settle a little bit. We need to keep an eye on New Orleans, Minn, Dallas, and Charlotte to make sure they stay ahead of us. 7 is probably our most likely landing spot.
I've been watching the Kings games and they are most definitely trying to win. They just aren't consistent in any thing they do but they play hard and lost some games they led like the Knicks.
Players don't try to lose. Of course they are going to play hard. Whenever we talk about tanking, it's not the players or the coaches. The Kings have been sitting many of their starting players, and will continue to do so. That is what upper management demands of the team, to sit guys and play the young players big minutes, that indicates a team trying to lose games.
I understand the Tanking principles, just that when they won their last game I didn't see them resting starting players. Perhaps I missed the games where they did that. I saw them in an overtime loss to the Wizards and the win against the Magic. I missed the game in between against the Nuggets.
Paris907 wrote:after ball fultz it's a crapshoot - fox and Tatum could gontop 5 or 5-9. Id like one of the two or Monk if both are gone.
Top 3 are Fultz, Ball and Josh Jackson. Then I'd say Tatum and Fox. Then it's unclear.
Remember we'll either have pick 1 to 3 (unlikely, but it's a possibility) or where we finish in the standings (and we could fall 2 spots if 2 teams after us move up in the draft), therefore there's basically no chance we end up with the 4th pick. If we don't finish 5th there is zero chance of that either. So basically we have no shot at the second tier talents
smackeddog wrote:Kings win again! We're in a 3 way tie with pelicans and kings - and those two teams still have to play each other. We'd better not win the nets game!
Great news! I believe that KP is out of tonight's game and that should help our efforts to tank.
Is it possible that Monk is another Rose? He is popular around here, but is a combo guard with no wingspan
Weaknesses: Certainly best as a scoring guard, though at around 6’3 with a 6’6 wingspan, definitely would be considered undersized and could struggle defending bigger guards … While some have referred to him as a combo guard, he is not particularly comfortable setting up the offense and does not really show the vision of a primary handler … Can be a bit loose with his handle and decision making, not entirely comfortable beyond a few dribbles creating for himself … Low FT rate, while he scores from all three levels does not get to the basket often enough and can be thrown off by contact … Has struggled defending at the point of attack and on-ball, one might not be sure how versatile he is as a defender … Low steal and block rates, as well as surprisingly low rebound rate given his explosive athleticism … Has not shown much ability in the pick-and-roll, once again leading to questions about his translating to a lead guard … Seems to be heavily reliant on his shooting at this point, which leads to questions about what he brings to the table if his shot is not falling … Has not been asked to do much off of the cut, which one might think he would be more involved in given his athletic gifts … Very little of his scoring has happened close to the basket off of the dribble, has needed someone to create those opportunities for him ... As great as he has proven to be as a shooter in his freshman year, he was just an average shooter throughout his high school career, adding some skepticism about his incredible shooting accuracy at Kentucky ...
Despite the fact that his shooting is not as good as Monk's, of the 2 KU kids, I would look at Fox if both are available, because of his ability to defend and a more natural tendency to be a distributor.
Would also like to see more on Frank Ntilikina, who I have mentioned before. Right now NBADraft.net has us taking him. His shooting seems to have improved, but he does need more beef on him. My natural tendency is to go for foreign talent, because I believe they understand team ball better than many of U.S. players of the same age.
DraftExpress has us taking Lauri Markkanen, who is an interesting player, but would seem redundant for us now, unless he has the ability to be a 3 down the road, which does not seem possible from what I've read.
We should get a good player whenever we draft, but I see defensive ability as a priority, especially if we draft a PG, SG, or SF.