Knicks · Ways to improve the team as is (page 1)

BRIGGS @ 1/12/2017 12:18 AM
#1 start Kyle oquinn at center and play him 35-38 minutes
#2 start Jennings and Rose together as backcourt
#3 play Willy G Kuz Courtney Lee and Baker off the bench as top 9
#4 demand Kp take better % shots I don't like his shot selection he should be shooting 50%
#5 hold each player accountable for moving the ball. To the open man more often
#6 hold each player accountable for staying. With their man on defense
crzymdups @ 1/12/2017 12:39 AM
How can there be any accountability when a player can just skip out of town if they don't like their role and not get punished. This team is toast.
BRIGGS @ 1/12/2017 12:50 AM
crzymdups wrote:How can there be any accountability when a player can just skip out of town if they don't like their role and not get punished. This team is toast.

I gotcha but this is the clay I have to work with right now

Welpee @ 1/12/2017 7:04 AM
BRIGGS wrote:#1 start Kyle oquinn at center and play him 35-38 minutes
#2 start Jennings and Rose together as backcourt
#3 play Willy G Kuz Courtney Lee and Baker off the bench as top 9
#4 demand Kp take better % shots I don't like his shot selection he should be shooting 50%
#5 hold each player accountable for moving the ball. To the open man more often
#6 hold each player accountable for staying. With their man on defense
Nothing to dispute here, but shouldn't Melo be listed somewhere or are you fine with how he's playing?
nyknickzingis @ 1/12/2017 7:54 AM
crzymdups wrote:How can there be any accountability when a player can just skip out of town if they don't like their role and not get punished. This team is toast.

I'm hoping we are trying to trade him without looking desperate. If we suspended him Rose only pouts more and situation becomes worse making it harder to get a trade that benefits us done. Right now we can shop him without actually looking desperate.
SwishAndDish13 @ 1/12/2017 8:01 AM
nyknickzingis wrote:
crzymdups wrote:How can there be any accountability when a player can just skip out of town if they don't like their role and not get punished. This team is toast.

I'm hoping we are trying to trade him without looking desperate. If we suspended him Rose only pouts more and situation becomes worse making it harder to get a trade that benefits us done. Right now we can shop him without actually looking desperate.

I hope not. They need to hold him and let his contract expire so they can start to balance the roster a little bit more. Trading will require us to take back multiple useless pieces. Those types of moves are really how the Knicks got to this point.
SwishAndDish13 @ 1/12/2017 8:01 AM
nyknickzingis wrote:
crzymdups wrote:How can there be any accountability when a player can just skip out of town if they don't like their role and not get punished. This team is toast.

I'm hoping we are trying to trade him without looking desperate. If we suspended him Rose only pouts more and situation becomes worse making it harder to get a trade that benefits us done. Right now we can shop him without actually looking desperate.

I hope not. They need to hold him and let his contract expire so they can start to balance the roster a little bit more. Trading will require us to take back multiple useless pieces. Those types of moves are really how the Knicks got to this point.
Bonn1997 @ 1/12/2017 8:03 AM
SwishAndDish13 wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:
crzymdups wrote:How can there be any accountability when a player can just skip out of town if they don't like their role and not get punished. This team is toast.

I'm hoping we are trying to trade him without looking desperate. If we suspended him Rose only pouts more and situation becomes worse making it harder to get a trade that benefits us done. Right now we can shop him without actually looking desperate.

I hope not. They need to hold him and let his contract expire so they can start to balance the roster a little bit more. Trading will require us to take back multiple useless pieces. Those types of moves are really how the Knicks got to this point.

There's only one way to find out if that's true. You don't think a team would even give up an expiring contract and a 2nd round pick for him?
nyknickzingis @ 1/12/2017 10:45 AM
Why not take back some contracts if they are good contracts? What has capspace given us in the last few years? Rolo. Noah. Afflalo. Lee. All role players. Vets. No star will sign with a lottery team with capspace which is what we are and continue to be.

If there's a good DRose trade, make it happen. I don't care about capspace at this point because no good established star player is coming to New York. Nice to dream about CP3, Steph and all that but come on. They'll get much more guaranteed money from their own teams and their teams are much better than the Knicks.

I am leaning towards either keeping Rose on a good contract value wise or to deal him now before the deadline for good value. I don't even think we'll find a better player than Rose or even similar caliber player than Rose in free agency in 2017. As much drama as has happened, Rose is playing very good individually. All the concerns about his health are being erased. He's blowing by players with ease. Some teams covet that. Many teams run a very high usage of high screen roll through their PG. Rose's value now is higher than when the Knicks traded for him, because when they traded for him there were massive concerns about whether he could stay healthy, if he could still blow by people and finish inside with ease. He's showing all of that again. If I'm the Knicks, I either lock him up with a contract that they know they can trade him in the future with that is good value, or I deal him to the highest bidder at deadline. We're not going to use the capspace in 2017 on any player better than Rose.

SupremeCommander @ 1/12/2017 11:07 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
SwishAndDish13 wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:
crzymdups wrote:How can there be any accountability when a player can just skip out of town if they don't like their role and not get punished. This team is toast.

I'm hoping we are trying to trade him without looking desperate. If we suspended him Rose only pouts more and situation becomes worse making it harder to get a trade that benefits us done. Right now we can shop him without actually looking desperate.

I hope not. They need to hold him and let his contract expire so they can start to balance the roster a little bit more. Trading will require us to take back multiple useless pieces. Those types of moves are really how the Knicks got to this point.

There's only one way to find out if that's true. You don't think a team would even give up an expiring contract and a 2nd round pick for him?

the fact that hes playing some of the worst ball of his career coupled with his trade kicker leads me to believe no one will be interested in him - $30 mil/yr for Melo?

knicks1248 @ 1/12/2017 2:09 PM
crzymdups wrote:How can there be any accountability when a player can just skip out of town if they don't like their role and not get punished. This team is toast.

but the will be docked 200k

newyorker4ever @ 1/12/2017 4:33 PM
BRIGGS wrote:#1 start Kyle oquinn at center and play him 35-38 minutes
#2 start Jennings and Rose together as backcourt
#3 play Willy G Kuz Courtney Lee and Baker off the bench as top 9
#4 demand Kp take better % shots I don't like his shot selection he should be shooting 50%
#5 hold each player accountable for moving the ball. To the open man more often
#6 hold each player accountable for staying. With their man on defense

Why don't Hornacek just give each player a list of what stats they need to put up each night and hope they can reach those numbers to round out each of their games.
Melo--22 points, 7 reb, 4 assists
D.Rose--17 points, 9 assists, 5 reb
KP--20 points, 9 reb, 3 assists, 2 blocks
C.Lee--14 points, 5 reb, 4 assists
J.Noah--12 points, 10 reb, 3 assists

And whatever for everyone else. If you don't get your stats then you get some kind of punishment. I'm pretty much joking but something like that just might work if these guys are all trying to hit these stats and they're all doing something with each stat.

newyorker4ever @ 1/12/2017 4:37 PM
SwishAndDish13 wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:
crzymdups wrote:How can there be any accountability when a player can just skip out of town if they don't like their role and not get punished. This team is toast.

I'm hoping we are trying to trade him without looking desperate. If we suspended him Rose only pouts more and situation becomes worse making it harder to get a trade that benefits us done. Right now we can shop him without actually looking desperate.

I hope not. They need to hold him and let his contract expire so they can start to balance the roster a little bit more. Trading will require us to take back multiple useless pieces. Those types of moves are really how the Knicks got to this point.

I'm not sure we'd have to take back bad contracts wioth a guy like Rose. He's still looking like he's got his legs back, he's putting up good numbers and he a expiring contract. If he was on a 3 year deal and wasn't putting up good numbers then i'd see that to be true but he's not any of that.

CrushAlot @ 1/12/2017 4:56 PM
Move Rambis upstairs and let Jeff coach with autonomy. Stop running the triangle entirely. Consider starting O'Quinn over Noah or moving Melo to the four and KP to the five. Start either Lance or Kuz at the 3 if you move KP to the 5.
TripleThreat @ 1/15/2017 1:58 AM
BRIGGS wrote:#1 start Kyle oquinn at center and play him 35-38 minutes
#2 start Jennings and Rose together as backcourt
#3 play Willy G Kuz Courtney Lee and Baker off the bench as top 9
#4 demand Kp take better % shots I don't like his shot selection he should be shooting 50%
#5 hold each player accountable for moving the ball. To the open man more often
#6 hold each player accountable for staying. With their man on defense


There is no way for the Knicks to improve except incrementally given the current design of the team.

Phil Jackson sacrificed the next four years of this team for essentially the hope that a short term burst of this season would inch the team into the playoffs.

The Derrick Rose trade was a net negative move. What would happen if he was a wild success this year? The Knicks would be under the gun to give a max contract to a player with an injury history, carrying low positional value ( you need rim protecting pivots and wings who can play 3 and D ball to win in the current NBA) who can't hit the 3 ball consistently, much less at the elite level needed to space the floor. What would happen if he was a total bust? The Knicks would have rented a player costing them a valuable trade asset ( Lopez on a team friendly contract, a team player who actually helped on defense and had a decent all around game) and a young player in Grant ( while Grant is likely not to work out long term, jettisoning young cost controlled talent for aging talent is not the way to win in the NBA) If Rose did well or poorly, either scenario hurt the Knicks.

Noah was a great player. But the last two years of his deal are likely to be pretty ugly. Aging, hurt and overpaid. Now do teams make a calculated risk considering the negative back end of a deal? Sure, but in context. Take MLB, the Tigers signed Miguel Cabrera and the LA Angels signed Albert Pujols. The back half of those super deals will likely get ugly. But the teams weighed out the front half of the contract, where the players are projected to play at an All Star level and hopefully help the team win a championship. Those are specific situations where the team weighs it out and takes the good first half for the likely risk of the bad back half. Where was the upside with Noah? They signed an aging player in his clear decline phase, not a player who would hit that decline phase a couple of years into his contract.

You want to win in the modern NBA? I've said this many times in the past

A) You need to be able to defend the rim
B) You need to be able to defend the wing
C) You need to be able to space the floor and hit the 3 ball at an elite rate

Noah is likely to be hurt a ton during his Knicks contract. Clearly in decline. He can't play Stretch 5, his defense will erode, he was never an offensive force in his career. Even with all the money spent, the Knicks created more questions, not answers, with rim protection and defense.

Rose is not an elite 3 point shooter. He's not even a decent long range shooter period. He doesn't care about defense. And he has a big injury history. And he's clearly a mental midget ( criminal problems, abandoning his team, poor composure with the press, etc) He creates more questions, not answers.

None of these guys have trade value. It would cost assets to get them and their contracts off the roster at this point.

The Knicks best hope to get better is to get cost controlled young talent, on the rise, onto the roster. Meaning they need to hit on their picks, getting a Marc Gasol or a Monta Ellis or a Gilbert Arenas type impact player later in the draft process.

That's it. Jackson sold the next four years to make this one a little better ( likely for his reputation and pride, because the last few years haven't been good to his ego or reputation)

The Knicks churned Lopez and Grant for basically nothing. The Lee and Noah contracts aren't likely to look very good in the back half. Their best young player, Zinger, plays PF, same as their "star player" in Melo. Zinger can't defend the rim, Melo can't defend the wing and just seems to not care about defense at all this season.

No one wants to hear it, but in about three years, the Knicks will have to start over, likely from scratch, and that is about the gist of it. The combination of Melo's NTC and his utter failure to be anything other than a lethal 1v1 sixth man and Noah and Lee's likely to implode deals are going to cripple this team's cap and roster flexibility.

At minimum, Hornacek had the most success using a Stretch 5 and having depth with combo guards to run his offense. The Knicks don't have the personnel he needs and don't have the resources or flexibility anymore to get what he needs.

In the next three and a half years, the Knicks need to break the general statistical odds in terms of NBA draft success to moderate get better.

This is a flawed roster that was constructed with a poor fit. The skills sets are not complimentary where they need to be, and often conflict in some very tough ways.

This team will eventually blame Hornacek for all of this. But who are we kidding here? The combination of Dolan, Jackson and Melo drove this team into the ground.

sidneydeane @ 1/15/2017 7:21 AM
Jennings and rose cant start together that would be a disaster. Going forward we need to make sure every player we look at playing or acquiring can play both ways, more so defense. We really need an elite wing defender..bad. if we took noah out of our starting 5 and replaced him with a demarre Carroll type player it would make the world of difference. But more than anything we need the team to play together on both ends. Everyone is to blame atm.
nyknickzingis @ 1/15/2017 8:03 AM
I actually like what Rose said.
Coach Horny needs to be tougher and harder on the team about defense.

The team needs to value each defensive possession. If a player takes a defensive possession off, bench.

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