Knicks · Rose and Melo conundrum (page 1)

Lets assume Rose is not going to get the max 150/5. Only we could offer him that much and we would not. I do not see other teams offering Rose more than 20 million a year and a contract longer than 3 years. Just too many injury risks. Lets just say for arguments sake that we can keep Rose on a reasonable deal.

For all the flaws with Rose and Melo culture wise, the way they can play selfishly, they are also still damn good players. Rose is impossible to stop from driving by you. Melo is still a great post up mid-wing or elbow player and has a good outside jump shot. Neither player can win as the man on the team, but both are still capable of all-star level play at what they do. Will it be easy to find talent like this? Not so much. Kristaps is a great talent. We know what he is capable of and we know he has to work on his post game and rolling harder to the basket after setting screens. He will get better with time.

So now it comes to this. Lets assume we keep KP, Melo and Rose. Because still on paper talet wise, that is incredible talent to work with. What should be done around those guys?

Here's the conundrum.

If we keep Rose and Melo, I think Horny has to go. He just can not get enough out of these guys. His style does not suit Rose. Rose needs a defensive minded head coach who will encourage the team to play around Rose/Melo/KP. We have to let Horny go, and we have to completely change the supporting cast around the big 3 towards players like O'Quinn. Players that play hard defensively, are physical, challenge everything and are threats as spot up shooters or when open.

It's a bit of a conundrum, because the hardest thing to get in the league is talent. To have three players like KP, Rose and Melo is a strong position to start from. What could be needed is a coachiing change and to find better defensive role players around them. More O'Quinn type of players. Courtney Lee's defense has been underwhelming. Noah is a one way threat.

Could this team's best bet be simply to change coaches, shuffle the role players around and try again? We'll be adding a lottery pick to our team and that's youth we really need next year. Melo is old, but he can score with ease.

Part of me says blow it up. I am infuriated. When I calm down I tend to see how hard it is to get talent like Rose, Melo, KP on the same team. With the right head coach and right defensive minded role players, this team could still do major damage.

What I'm trying to say is say if this team drafts 10 in the summer. We could add a really athletic talented wing. That's what we need. We need someone to pair Rose with. Someone that can be a defender and all that. The lottery could bring us that player. If we shuffle the deck a little, you know make some changes with the role players, we may be able to win with the group we have.

The alternative is to let Rose go, and to trade Melo. Which is blowing it up. I'm fine with that. However it won't happen easily. Melo is seemingly hell bent on retiring a Knick. He's practically given up hope of a ring even with his talk about having won Olympic medals proving his championship pedigree. So any rebuild can't really happen until Melo decides to waive his NTC. If Melo is a Knick, then you might as well try to win because there just isn't going to be any true re-building. You try to draft well you try to keep your younger players and develop them. Sort of like Phil has already.

However a coaching change is a must if we are keeping Rose and Melo. One could argue considering Fisher got fired last year, with a lesser team and much more depleted roster, that this current stretch should have Horny fired. How does a team with Calderon, Afflalo and Lopez defend better with Melo/KP than with Rose/Lee/Noah. Noah and Lee have good standing as defenders. It has to be something where the players are simply not responding to the coaches and that Horny may not have a good defensive vision for the team.

There is NO deal that I would keep Rose. His behavior this week, his likelihood of injuries, his lack of team play and his inability to get the best out of KP mean he's a bad fit. Has he improved our PG situation given what we've endured in recent years? Yes. Has he done nearly enough to suggest we would want him back for another 3 years or more? In no way.

At this point I can only hope that Jackson is in the process of looking to trade both Anthony and Rose. As you say that won't be easy but we have reached the point it's very necessary.

Seems like it's best to move on from Rose. I would rather just keep Jennings as a stopgap. It's all about building around Porzingis. For all of Rose's talents, he's not a great fit with Porzingis, and his attitude is clearly counter-productive to building the culture we want here.

Knixkik wrote:Seems like it's best to move on from Rose. I would rather just keep Jennings as a stopgap. It's all about building around Porzingis. For all of Rose's talents, he's not a great fit with Porzingis, and his attitude is clearly counter-productive to building the culture we want here.

I am fully on board with moving on from Rose. I have been advocating that for over a week now before this whole AWOL stuff even transpired. However what happens without Rose and still having Anthony? Are the Knicks better? Not really. Are they bad enough that they can go and get another KP type of talent up high in the draft? No.

Hard to build around Porzingis so long as Anthony is around. Anthony has a NTC. He won't go anywhere. He's too happy living in NY. He
wants to retire a Knick, and although that may not happen, he certainly won't waive his NTC. If you're keeping Anthony, you may as well try to win as many games as possible, because if he plays 70 or more games a season, the Knicks will win 25+ of them. That's just the way it is.

Anthony has 2 more years left on his contract after this one. After that, Knicks can truly reform the team around KP and any other goods draft picks they have made in that time. Until then, I don't see what else we can do but to try and win the most games possible and have a coaching staff in place that thrives with Anthony.

I am at a loss what makes them good players? They can't win, they put themselves over the team. One guy goes AWOL and the other thinks he is good but the honest truth is he is shooting below 43%. He doesn't make his team better he is just a volume shooter and his numbers are inflated.

Vmart wrote:I am at a loss what makes them good players? They can't win, they put themselves over the team. One guy goes AWOL and the other thinks he is good but the honest truth is he is shooting below 43%. He doesn't make his team better he is just a volume shooter and his numbers are inflated.

They're good players, but not great players. Lets say we had Lance Thomas at 3 and Brandon Jennings at 1 with KP as the man. KP may average 3-4 more points a game, however I think we would have won maybe 10 games at most right now. Yes, that's probably even better for us, because we'd have a chance at season's end to grab a top 4 pick and pair someone with KP the next 10 yeras. However, with Melo on the roster that's just not happening. Unless Melo gets hurt and misses most of the season like he did a few years ago.

The Knicks are stuck with this until Melo moves on. Which won't be for 2 more years. In the mean time, you need to try different things maybe to win. This coaching staff was good for offense, but very bad for defense. May want to try bringing in a defensive minded coaching staff. Horny's teams in Pheonix didn't defend either.

Best case for us Melo waives his NTC and we truly re-build, KP becomes the man now, he gets more chances and despite losing much more like Towns and others are, he also gets rewarded at year's end with some elite young drafted talent that can partner with him in their prime. However that scenario is not plausible because Melo won't waive his NTC. So with Melo, here's the conundrum. Do you keep Rose and try to win with a different group of role players and coaching staff? I don't see any other solutions until Melo waives his NTC or his contract expires. Earliest we can truly rebuild around KP is 2019.

nyknickzingis wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Seems like it's best to move on from Rose. I would rather just keep Jennings as a stopgap. It's all about building around Porzingis. For all of Rose's talents, he's not a great fit with Porzingis, and his attitude is clearly counter-productive to building the culture we want here.

I am fully on board with moving on from Rose. I have been advocating that for over a week now before this whole AWOL stuff even transpired. However what happens without Rose and still having Anthony? Are the Knicks better? Not really. Are they bad enough that they can go and get another KP type of talent up high in the draft? No.

Hard to build around Porzingis so long as Anthony is around. Anthony has a NTC. He won't go anywhere. He's too happy living in NY. He
wants to retire a Knick, and although that may not happen, he certainly won't waive his NTC. If you're keeping Anthony, you may as well try to win as many games as possible, because if he plays 70 or more games a season, the Knicks will win 25+ of them. That's just the way it is.

Anthony has 2 more years left on his contract after this one. After that, Knicks can truly reform the team around KP and any other goods draft picks they have made in that time. Until then, I don't see what else we can do but to try and win the most games possible and have a coaching staff in place that thrives with Anthony.

At the very least, Melo has proven to be a good fit with Porzingis. He looks for him, and has maintained a big brother role. Having Melo is not the end of the world. He can provide help on the offensive end. I would love to see this team with KP at center, Melo at the 4, and a bigger combo forward who can provide defense and rebounding. I think it would make a world of difference.

I'm not ready to quit on Rose only If and hopefully when he sees his next contract ain't gonna be near a max contract. I would propose a 3 years 10/12 millions per. It's fair I think for what he provides and would not kill this team If he breaks given the future salary cap.

He's still a good player who could bring something. However he's nowhere near a 20 millions player, mind a max one.
If he wants more or another team makes a better offer, farewell.

Knixkik wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Seems like it's best to move on from Rose. I would rather just keep Jennings as a stopgap. It's all about building around Porzingis. For all of Rose's talents, he's not a great fit with Porzingis, and his attitude is clearly counter-productive to building the culture we want here.

I am fully on board with moving on from Rose. I have been advocating that for over a week now before this whole AWOL stuff even transpired. However what happens without Rose and still having Anthony? Are the Knicks better? Not really. Are they bad enough that they can go and get another KP type of talent up high in the draft? No.

Hard to build around Porzingis so long as Anthony is around. Anthony has a NTC. He won't go anywhere. He's too happy living in NY. He
wants to retire a Knick, and although that may not happen, he certainly won't waive his NTC. If you're keeping Anthony, you may as well try to win as many games as possible, because if he plays 70 or more games a season, the Knicks will win 25+ of them. That's just the way it is.

Anthony has 2 more years left on his contract after this one. After that, Knicks can truly reform the team around KP and any other goods draft picks they have made in that time. Until then, I don't see what else we can do but to try and win the most games possible and have a coaching staff in place that thrives with Anthony.

At the very least, Melo has proven to be a good fit with Porzingis. He looks for him, and has maintained a big brother role. Having Melo is not the end of the world. He can provide help on the offensive end. I would love to see this team with KP at center, Melo at the 4, and a bigger combo forward who can provide defense and rebounding. I think it would make a world of difference.

This is my thinking as well. Rose has to go but Melo is fine with KP. The only way I trade away Melo is for Blake Griffin. Honestly, I think that is the only place he would agree to be traded to. We need a Derrick McKey type player to play alongside Melo. Right now, I think Luol Deng is the only player that comes to mind.

NYKBocker wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Seems like it's best to move on from Rose. I would rather just keep Jennings as a stopgap. It's all about building around Porzingis. For all of Rose's talents, he's not a great fit with Porzingis, and his attitude is clearly counter-productive to building the culture we want here.

I am fully on board with moving on from Rose. I have been advocating that for over a week now before this whole AWOL stuff even transpired. However what happens without Rose and still having Anthony? Are the Knicks better? Not really. Are they bad enough that they can go and get another KP type of talent up high in the draft? No.

Hard to build around Porzingis so long as Anthony is around. Anthony has a NTC. He won't go anywhere. He's too happy living in NY. He
wants to retire a Knick, and although that may not happen, he certainly won't waive his NTC. If you're keeping Anthony, you may as well try to win as many games as possible, because if he plays 70 or more games a season, the Knicks will win 25+ of them. That's just the way it is.

Anthony has 2 more years left on his contract after this one. After that, Knicks can truly reform the team around KP and any other goods draft picks they have made in that time. Until then, I don't see what else we can do but to try and win the most games possible and have a coaching staff in place that thrives with Anthony.

At the very least, Melo has proven to be a good fit with Porzingis. He looks for him, and has maintained a big brother role. Having Melo is not the end of the world. He can provide help on the offensive end. I would love to see this team with KP at center, Melo at the 4, and a bigger combo forward who can provide defense and rebounding. I think it would make a world of difference.

This is my thinking as well. Rose has to go but Melo is fine with KP. The only way I trade away Melo is for Blake Griffin. Honestly, I think that is the only place he would agree to be traded to. We need a Derrick McKey type player to play alongside Melo. Right now, I think Luol Deng is the only player that comes to mind.

PJ Tucker is a short-term option also. Does a lot of dirt work. Good defender, good rebounder.

magicTs wrote:There is NO deal that I would keep Rose. His behavior this week, his likelihood of injuries, his lack of team play and his inability to get the best out of KP mean he's a bad fit. Has he improved our PG situation given what we've endured in recent years? Yes. Has he done nearly enough to suggest we would want him back for another 3 years or more? In no way.

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. If he'd do something like 1 year, $5 mil, I'd do it but I assume that kind of deal is out of the question. So I'd just trade him for whatever we could get or let him expire.

Vmart wrote:I am at a loss what makes them good players? They can't win, they put themselves over the team. One guy goes AWOL and the other thinks he is good but the honest truth is he is shooting below 43%. He doesn't make his team better he is just a volume shooter and his numbers are inflated.

They're considered good players because they score a lot of points. They're badly overrated. Neither is playing like they're worth more than $5 mil a year (maybe generously 7 or 8 mil for Melo and 3 or 4 for Rose). We're getting pennies on the dollar from almost all our players.

Culture and system makes NBA team a contender.
Players are as good as they fit into both.
Granted you need talent but there is a lot of talent in NBA and more coming at every draft.
Both Melo and Rose should win and make team a contender when they fit the system and culture.
But both of them are not capable individuals to recognize how and where they have to play to be successful and make team succeed.
The system and culture Phis and Horny trying to build is not for Melo and Rose type of players.
It demanded leadership, bbal IQ, character, team first attitude, sacrifice.
They both are in wrong place.
Phil is making everything possible to setup things to indirectly send them clear message that they need to move on.
Lets see if they can get the memo...

arkrud wrote:Culture and system makes NBA team a contender.
Players are as good as they fit into both.
Granted you need talent but there is a lot of talent in NBA and more coming at every draft.
Both Melo and Rose should win and make team a contender when they fit the system and culture.
But both of them are not capable individuals to recognize how and where they have to play to be successful and make team succeed.
The system and culture Phis and Horny trying to build is not for Melo and Rose type of players.
It demanded leadership, bbal IQ, character, team first attitude, sacrifice.
They both are in wrong place.
Phil is making everything possible to setup things to indirectly send them clear message that they need to move on.
Lets see if they can get the memo...

Yeah like signing one to big contract and trading for the other...Did they send a private jet to get 🌹 from Chicago??

arkrud wrote:Culture and system makes NBA team a contender.
Players are as good as they fit into both.
Granted you need talent but there is a lot of talent in NBA and more coming at every draft.
Both Melo and Rose should win and make team a contender when they fit the system and culture.
But both of them are not capable individuals to recognize how and where they have to play to be successful and make team succeed.
The system and culture Phis and Horny trying to build is not for Melo and Rose type of players.
It demanded leadership, bbal IQ, character, team first attitude, sacrifice.
They both are in wrong place.
Phil is making everything possible to setup things to indirectly send them clear message that they need to move on.
Lets see if they can get the memo...

I think Melo is in NY longer than Phil. I think he might be waiting for him to move on.

If Rose and Melo are as good as you and some others claim how come the Knicks are so bad? Currently on pace to win 35 games, 3 more than last year.

I think Phil's tied Jeff's hands a bit too much with the Triangle stuff. They are running it more and more from what i've seen but it's not as easy for people to pick up unless you're really focused on it. The way they start most plays is purely Triangle. You get the predictable 3 passes up top and Melo quickly occupying the Pinch Post. But now with Noah and Rose in the Mix it often leaves nowhere for KP to go!!! RoLo strictly posted up LOW and opposite from Melo and that left space for KP. The way Noah plays is Mid Post and some High Post which doesn't really leave anywhere for KP to go but perimeter.

One way around this would be for Jeff to run what he did in PHX. He often ran Horns or some 4 Out looks and a bunch of other stuff that was just simple but effective. I see no reason he couldn't run this stuff with Rose, Melo and KP. I think Jeff's stuff was less predictable and easier for these players to run. PLUS it was proven to work with Guards like Rose and Jennings that can drive around screens.

PLEASE WATCH THIS VIDEO AND LISTEN TO THE DETAILS OF HOW JEFF'S OFFENSE WORKED!

I for one agree with the OP. we need a demanding coach who creates a culture and doesn't allow any superstar treatment. With that though i am n ok t referring to the rose thing even though he was in the wrong it was well out of character and it wasnt hard to see he had some issues going on. Everything else he has done has been completely prifessional. If we take this team add a nice draft pick..what choice do we have anyway as long as we have melo. Id take rose for 20-3 years no problem. The real problem is Noah's contract that has to be one of the worst ever

nyknickzingis wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Seems like it's best to move on from Rose. I would rather just keep Jennings as a stopgap. It's all about building around Porzingis. For all of Rose's talents, he's not a great fit with Porzingis, and his attitude is clearly counter-productive to building the culture we want here.

I am fully on board with moving on from Rose. I have been advocating that for over a week now before this whole AWOL stuff even transpired. However what happens without Rose and still having Anthony? Are the Knicks better? Not really. Are they bad enough that they can go and get another KP type of talent up high in the draft? No.

Hard to build around Porzingis so long as Anthony is around. Anthony has a NTC. He won't go anywhere. He's too happy living in NY. He
wants to retire a Knick, and although that may not happen, he certainly won't waive his NTC. If you're keeping Anthony, you may as well try to win as many games as possible, because if he plays 70 or more games a season, the Knicks will win 25+ of them. That's just the way it is.

Anthony has 2 more years left on his contract after this one. After that, Knicks can truly reform the team around KP and any other goods draft picks they have made in that time. Until then, I don't see what else we can do but to try and win the most games possible and have a coaching staff in place that thrives with Anthony.

This is where this type of thinking goes wrong. Giving him an NTC was a horrible mistake and just plain stupid. Making that the reason now to compound the mistake and make it even less about KP is about the worst thing we can do. You don't throw good money after bad money, you cut your losses and move on. If Melo takes the floor as Knick for two more seasons let him. We don't owe it to him or to anyone to try and put anything around him. That reasoning is self defeating and meaningless.