Knicks · Melo: If they feel my time in NY is over that's a conversation we should have (page 6)
Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Us losing games is on Melo. Defensively he is atrocious for the team's leader. He just brings zero defensive culture to the team.I do have no hard feelings for Melo. I appreciate his talent as a scorer. He's one of the best isolation scorers in the game. However, he is not winning as the man. We're moving nowhere. We're stuck between a fringe playoff team and a lottery team. It's not a good place to be in every year. Moving Melo expediates the rebuilding process.
If the team were able to win something in the now, or Melo was drawing in all-star free agents that could put the Knicks into contending, ok. That's not the case. The trade has made sense for almost 2 years now. However Phil and everyone wanted to give it a try. They have. Time to move on now.
Phil has to step up. Take the heat. Be the bad guy. He's already vilified. He does need to make a trade that gives Knicks some capspace and longterm assets. It won't be easy to make a trade.
It's not just his defense, though. His shooting is worse than the worst shooting team in the league. If he's not going to play defense or shoot respectably, what are we paying him $25 mil for? The 5.9 rebounds? 0.9 steals?
He was shooting 48% before he injured his shoulder..His % plummeted since then..He might be getting paid since the team has no chance to win without him..
Small sample? :) He barely shot better than the worst team last year too. Who cares if the team doesn't win without him? No one's talking about just waiving him. The team doesn't win with him anyway.Small sample yes but not the point..Point is his shooting woes are due to a bad shoulder..I actually think it's just getting better..
The starters can complete..The bench has 8 guys with less than two years experience..Holiday has 3 years..They get out scored every time he leave the court..Bench has had a few shiny moments but they can't compete against good teams..Maybe he should play 48 minutes..But these are the same arguments you had in 2011/12..
That doesn't seem likely. Did he have a bad shoulder all of last year?It's a fact tha t he hurt his shoulder..
And it was hurt all of last year? (That's what I was asking.) If so, that's even more of a problem. If not, then the last 1 1/2 years indicate that he's a 43% volume shooter at this point in his career (which basically means a chucker).
Has less excuse this year. Although Lee, Rose and KP have not been the models of consistency. Oh and a starting Center that can't hit a layup or foul shot. But can you tell me the amazing cohorts he had the previous two years and what accolades they have accumulated with other teams? Or how many starter minutes they have logged? Start with his starting PG please.
HofstraBBall wrote:im not blaming melo BUT i just think its time to go in a different direction. For whatever reason it just hasnt worked out. Im not saying melo is easy to replace but i kinda want to try and build through the draft and add pieces as we go along. Its true the draft isnt a a sure thing but we did a great job with KP and hopefully we do well again this coming draftBonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Us losing games is on Melo. Defensively he is atrocious for the team's leader. He just brings zero defensive culture to the team.I do have no hard feelings for Melo. I appreciate his talent as a scorer. He's one of the best isolation scorers in the game. However, he is not winning as the man. We're moving nowhere. We're stuck between a fringe playoff team and a lottery team. It's not a good place to be in every year. Moving Melo expediates the rebuilding process.
If the team were able to win something in the now, or Melo was drawing in all-star free agents that could put the Knicks into contending, ok. That's not the case. The trade has made sense for almost 2 years now. However Phil and everyone wanted to give it a try. They have. Time to move on now.
Phil has to step up. Take the heat. Be the bad guy. He's already vilified. He does need to make a trade that gives Knicks some capspace and longterm assets. It won't be easy to make a trade.
It's not just his defense, though. His shooting is worse than the worst shooting team in the league. If he's not going to play defense or shoot respectably, what are we paying him $25 mil for? The 5.9 rebounds? 0.9 steals?
He was shooting 48% before he injured his shoulder..His % plummeted since then..He might be getting paid since the team has no chance to win without him..
Small sample? :) He barely shot better than the worst team last year too. Who cares if the team doesn't win without him? No one's talking about just waiving him. The team doesn't win with him anyway.Small sample yes but not the point..Point is his shooting woes are due to a bad shoulder..I actually think it's just getting better..
The starters can complete..The bench has 8 guys with less than two years experience..Holiday has 3 years..They get out scored every time he leave the court..Bench has had a few shiny moments but they can't compete against good teams..Maybe he should play 48 minutes..But these are the same arguments you had in 2011/12..
That doesn't seem likely. Did he have a bad shoulder all of last year?It's a fact tha t he hurt his shoulder..
And it was hurt all of last year? (That's what I was asking.) If so, that's even more of a problem. If not, then the last 1 1/2 years indicate that he's a 43% volume shooter at this point in his career (which basically means a chucker).Has less excuse this year. Although Lee, Rose and KP have not been the models of consistency. Oh and a starting Center that can't hit a layup or foul shot. But can you tell me the amazing cohorts he had the previous two years and what accolades they have accumulated with other teams? Or how many starter minutes they have logged? Start with his starting PG please.
jrodmc wrote:BRIGGS wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Problem here is, everyone is too busy whining like 2 year old little girls and looking to blame someone for not being able to wear their oversize Knick jerseys in public, that they are not seeing the real problems. Reminds me a lot of whining Yankee fans. (Probably a lot on here and in NYC)
If you watch the last 10 games, Melo is not the problem. KP is not LBJ and he will not be handing us a chip if we give him the rock every possession. People keep talking shit but they seem to not be noticing simple facts. It's easy to blame the star, I get it. Easy to say Melo can't play defense, not the best defensive player. Easy to say he takes too many shots, anyone who doesn't already know this is mentally slow. But look at why we are losing and you see a lot more obvious things to correct.Raptors back court scored 64 points yesterday...not on Melo
Melo leaves in Q2...bench plays like shit.(happens most games)
2 years of tanking by Phil..Not on Melo for losing.
2nd unit has no consistent scorers...yeah I know, Cheese, Baker and Willy are awesome.
Oh yeah, Triangle learning curve and old man Phil insistence for every coach.I still see the biggest problems as
Noah a mistake and liabilty for 17M..not on Melo (Phil?)
KP not a center and forcing 2 guys to play out of position..not on Melo
Rose not a PG no outside jumper.
Lee not the defender everyone claimed he was. JR without the energy, ability to play in spotlight and big moment and ability to drive.
Hmmmm and NO BENCH!!Is Melo the same? No. Does he miss defensive assignments? Yes. Can we win with him with a few changes to the roster? Absolutely. Fact of the matter is that the alternative is watching a bunch of young unproven guys get their shit handed to them every night, only to realize a few years later that we did not draft the next LBJ like every dreamer on this board is assuming we will. While were at it, let's all quit our jobs and play Lotto for a living. Way to build is have solid vets, Melo and trade for young 2 or 3 year pros and hope to get some luck in draft. Only reason I see to trade Melo is that KP can't play center. But then you better hope KP ia ready to turn into what everyone is claiming him to be.(Better than Melo) But be careful, he can be the next Dirk or, like someone mentioned, Bradley 2.0. Big and soft and taking 30 footers all game. Keep in mind that guys like that need players like Melo to shine.
Agree with almost every point uou said. Melo not to blame but right now the Knicks need massive change of course and melo represents the opportunity to change. We have 0 chance to win with melo none. So change course while you can
You know, it's amazing the power there is in just saying the same phrase over and over again with no allusion to any facts. We cannot win with Melo. (Even though we have) We cannot win with Melo. (Even though you just agreed with most of the points that the losing has little to nothing to do with Melo) We cannot win with Melo.
It's a great worldview. Here, let me try it:
We are going to win a chip with Melo.
The definition of madness is do the same thing which does not work over and over again.
Knicks organization and majority of Knicks fans are definitely feet the bill.
The system of bringing in a star payer or two and hope that this alone will win the games or even the chip (imagine this) never worked in any sport.
If Knick organization wanted to prove this point I think we did it with scientific precision.
So when clinical trial is over and all patients died as expected its time to use the collected knowledge and build team based on the system, culture, and plan.
Spurs, Warriors, and Cavs of NBA proved with scientific precision that stars added to the working system and culture can make team a perennial contender and win it all.
Is it a time for Knick organization and fans to stop dreaming and start working on fixing their mental issues?
Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Us losing games is on Melo. Defensively he is atrocious for the team's leader. He just brings zero defensive culture to the team.I do have no hard feelings for Melo. I appreciate his talent as a scorer. He's one of the best isolation scorers in the game. However, he is not winning as the man. We're moving nowhere. We're stuck between a fringe playoff team and a lottery team. It's not a good place to be in every year. Moving Melo expediates the rebuilding process.
If the team were able to win something in the now, or Melo was drawing in all-star free agents that could put the Knicks into contending, ok. That's not the case. The trade has made sense for almost 2 years now. However Phil and everyone wanted to give it a try. They have. Time to move on now.
Phil has to step up. Take the heat. Be the bad guy. He's already vilified. He does need to make a trade that gives Knicks some capspace and longterm assets. It won't be easy to make a trade.
It's not just his defense, though. His shooting is worse than the worst shooting team in the league. If he's not going to play defense or shoot respectably, what are we paying him $25 mil for? The 5.9 rebounds? 0.9 steals?
He was shooting 48% before he injured his shoulder..His % plummeted since then..He might be getting paid since the team has no chance to win without him..
Small sample? :) He barely shot better than the worst team last year too. Who cares if the team doesn't win without him? No one's talking about just waiving him. The team doesn't win with him anyway.Small sample yes but not the point..Point is his shooting woes are due to a bad shoulder..I actually think it's just getting better..
The starters can complete..The bench has 8 guys with less than two years experience..Holiday has 3 years..They get out scored every time he leave the court..Bench has had a few shiny moments but they can't compete against good teams..Maybe he should play 48 minutes..But these are the same arguments you had in 2011/12..
That doesn't seem likely. Did he have a bad shoulder all of last year?It's a fact tha t he hurt his shoulder..
And it was hurt all of last year? (That's what I was asking.) If so, that's even more of a problem. If not, then the last 1 1/2 years indicate that he's a 43% volume shooter at this point in his career (which basically means a chucker).
You tend to look at things in a light that favors your argument and not look at the full truth of a situation...You can call him a volume shooter or a chucker at 43%, sure..That's the percentage you shoot when you are constantly facing double teams...There were games early in the season where Melo were getting one on one looks because KP and Rose were effective which I thought contributed to his higher scoring percentage..Then he hurt his shoulder a few games before the West Coast trip and finally decided to rest it in GS, a game they more than likely would have lost...You see, I give brownie point to players who play thru injuries and take into consideration they are trying to help the team..I don't try to use it to penalize them and point out their bad play is entirely due to no unforeseen circumstances...
But it's not only Melo, look and LeBron and Wade's shooting percentage as they formed "the big three"..Their shooting percentage increased..My assumption is that as we get better players around Melo, you would see a higher shooting percentage..But I don't think you are interested in any of that...
But most of the times, he plays thru double teams..Most of the times he has been a Knick, the team can't win without him on the court...
smackeddog wrote:Melo and Rose have zero chemistry- it's like when Melo played with Amar'e, it's almost like they're in parallel dimensions.
Chemistry takes years...Bron Wade and Bosh didn't develop good chemistry until their second year...They were just out talenting people, if that's a word...They lost to Dallas their first year together...
I remember one sports commentator calling Wade and Bron dueling banjos...NY have no patients..So be it...
nyknickzingis wrote:Rose and Melo have talents that can work with one another as well as KP. The problem I've seen is that the other 2 guys with them are useually useless because Noah can not score if open unless he's wide open under the basket and Lee has not made enough baskets mainly because he doesn't take enough shots. On defense it's just awful. That's the real problem with Melo and Rose. Neither plays hard on defense.
The real problem is that Knick fans aren't patient...We traded Shump and JR a few years ago to a Cavs team hovering just above .500...We are 18-22..They took off after the trade...My only concern with this team is the bench..I have no doubt the starters can compete with the better teams in the league..The coach needs to be a defensive coach too..But we don't have that...
HofstraBBall wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:Knixkik wrote:wargames wrote:Knixkik wrote:I have always been supportive of Melo. He is the scapegoat the same way Ewing was. NY fans just don't learn. However, if it's time to move on, that's fine. It's reality that most of these relationships end in divorce. Change is the only constant. But I would have loved to see porzingis at the 5 and Melo at the 4 before a divorce. But it may be too little too late. We can't learn much the 2nd half of the year if both sides are thinking it's time to move on.I also agree. Us losing isn't Melo's fault. But the Knicks need to get younger and their time table for success likely doesn't match Melo's. The Knicks also need to keep cap space open. Literally the best time to trade Melo to would be Boston for those 2 Brooklyn Picks..... maybe through in Lee or KOQ to make it a better deal.
I doubt we can get both picks. I also doubt melo would want to go to boston. I think LAC would be his landing spot, if any. Too bad they don't have much we can use. Maybe they consider trading us Blake if we also take that terrible Wes Johnson deal off their hands and include o'quinn, who would really help them off the bench. Flip Griffin to a 3rd team. Not sure what else we can do. I'm not taking Clippers junk and they have no picks. Maybe to Cleveland for Thompson and this year's 1st rounder but Melo really doesn't make much sense for them. I'd hold off for Griffin. We could send them melo and a 3rd team can give them extra depth. If and when a deal happens, it will have to be an elaborate 3 team trade. Maybe Melo to LA, Griffin to boston, Crowder headed to LA too. Bk 1st rounder to us. Fillers to make the contracts work (boston is under the cap which makes it easier.) Something like that could work.
One of the best case scenarios for me in a Melo trade would be a 3 way and i don't care who the third team is as long as the Celtics are one of the teams and i would do everything i can and add players with Melo as long as we get J.Crowder and Avery Bradley along with a draft pick or two. Both Bradley and Crowder play strong defense and both have good offense as well and you add those two around KP and others and i'd be happy for the rebuild around KP process to start. Bradley can play the one or the two and we could even keep D.Rose with that group.
What team and/or player would the Celts take for guys mentioned. I mean you mentioned some pretty valuable assets. And why would anyone give that much for press beaten, fan shit on, Phil bashing.Melo? Think only way Melo gets traded is he gets tired of Phil and demands a trade. Which then leaves us with squat except for possibility we tank and get a KP or Khame Brown.
We can't trade Melo without his approval but we also don't have to trade Melo if we don't want to. You put his name out there and see what teams are willing to give up for him but if you don't like it then it's not a horrible thing to still have Melo on the team. We also have some good players that we could add to any deal that would make teams alright with giving up some better assets whether that be young players or draft picks. Guys like C.Lee, KOQ, J.Holiday, B.Jennings, Kuz, Billy, L.Thomas are all good pieces that we could add one or two to a deal to get a better return for Melo.
I think it's pretty funny that any fan thinks they know what teams would give up for Melo or any player cause there's no way any of us could know. I've seen many players get traded that people thought would never be able to get traded. We traded guys like A.Bargnani, Amare', J.Calderon and others that people were absolutely adamant about us never being able to trade any of them and i know you're gonna come up with what we had to do to trade them or why we ended up trading them but i don't care about all of that cause we still traded them when every single person said there was no way to do it and now people are saying there's no way we could trade Carmelo Anthony....lol.
The biggest thing with trading Melo and getting a good return will be if he gives Phil a list longer than just the Cavs and Clippers and if he doesn't then all that would need to happen is getting a third team involved and a trade can be worked out. I understand that Melo has big money still on his contract, I understand that there's also a trade kicker, i understand that Melo is 32 and will be 33 when the 2017/18 season starts, i understand that Melo is pretty much an offense only player and i also understand that every team knows all of that and everything else there is to know about Melo but even with all of that teams will still want Melo and as long as Phil doesn't get impatient and will stand by what he wants in return and doesn't give in to a team just to get the deal done then around that trade deadline someone will give in and trade for Melo, and if they don't then we just hold onto Melo and trade him in the offseason. We won't get as good a return as we would of 2/3 years ago obviously but i think we'd get a good enough return for him.
holfresh wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Rose and Melo have talents that can work with one another as well as KP. The problem I've seen is that the other 2 guys with them are useually useless because Noah can not score if open unless he's wide open under the basket and Lee has not made enough baskets mainly because he doesn't take enough shots. On defense it's just awful. That's the real problem with Melo and Rose. Neither plays hard on defense.The real problem is that Knick fans aren't patient...We traded Shump and JR a few years ago to a Cavs team hovering just above .500...We are 18-22..They took off after the trade...My only concern with this team is the bench..I have no doubt the starters can compete with the better teams in the league..The coach needs to be a defensive coach too..But we don't have that...
The Cavs getting JR and Shump had nothing to do with them winning. Lebron wins on whatever teams he plays on and no matter what players are around him. They're playing just fine without JR right now and Shump is just a piece and nothing more.
Salary will not be easy to move but Amir Johnson would have to come back as part of it.
KOQ to replace him. Im reluctant to move Willy.
Might have to involve a third team. Only thing I want back is Yoot/picks. Celtics should resist but Celtics could threaten Cav's, and if so, maybe you just go for it. I doubt they move Crowder. He is on an amazing contract.
newyorker4ever wrote:exactly. Lebron could basically win with anybody. Jr and shump had nothing to do with winning the titleholfresh wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Rose and Melo have talents that can work with one another as well as KP. The problem I've seen is that the other 2 guys with them are useually useless because Noah can not score if open unless he's wide open under the basket and Lee has not made enough baskets mainly because he doesn't take enough shots. On defense it's just awful. That's the real problem with Melo and Rose. Neither plays hard on defense.The real problem is that Knick fans aren't patient...We traded Shump and JR a few years ago to a Cavs team hovering just above .500...We are 18-22..They took off after the trade...My only concern with this team is the bench..I have no doubt the starters can compete with the better teams in the league..The coach needs to be a defensive coach too..But we don't have that...
The Cavs getting JR and Shump had nothing to do with them winning. Lebron wins on whatever teams he plays on and no matter what players are around him. They're playing just fine without JR right now and Shump is just a piece and nothing more.
newyorker4ever wrote:holfresh wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Rose and Melo have talents that can work with one another as well as KP. The problem I've seen is that the other 2 guys with them are useually useless because Noah can not score if open unless he's wide open under the basket and Lee has not made enough baskets mainly because he doesn't take enough shots. On defense it's just awful. That's the real problem with Melo and Rose. Neither plays hard on defense.The real problem is that Knick fans aren't patient...We traded Shump and JR a few years ago to a Cavs team hovering just above .500...We are 18-22..They took off after the trade...My only concern with this team is the bench..I have no doubt the starters can compete with the better teams in the league..The coach needs to be a defensive coach too..But we don't have that...
The Cavs getting JR and Shump had nothing to do with them winning. Lebron wins on whatever teams he plays on and no matter what players are around him. They're playing just fine without JR right now and Shump is just a piece and nothing more.
Well they are a different team today with Love establishing a different confidence...But to deny their impact is just silly..Just look at record and when they joined..They brought defense to a team that lacked it..They were winning because of defense at that time...Kyre was coming back from a knee injury and Love are now different players..But they need JR back for the playoffs...JR was key for them last playoff run...Sometimes you have to just give credit where it's due...
I wish we had a player like Kyre who could step out and take over games, while Melo(LeBron), pick his spots...But it's not meant to be...
newyorker4ever wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:Knixkik wrote:wargames wrote:Knixkik wrote:I have always been supportive of Melo. He is the scapegoat the same way Ewing was. NY fans just don't learn. However, if it's time to move on, that's fine. It's reality that most of these relationships end in divorce. Change is the only constant. But I would have loved to see porzingis at the 5 and Melo at the 4 before a divorce. But it may be too little too late. We can't learn much the 2nd half of the year if both sides are thinking it's time to move on.I also agree. Us losing isn't Melo's fault. But the Knicks need to get younger and their time table for success likely doesn't match Melo's. The Knicks also need to keep cap space open. Literally the best time to trade Melo to would be Boston for those 2 Brooklyn Picks..... maybe through in Lee or KOQ to make it a better deal.
I doubt we can get both picks. I also doubt melo would want to go to boston. I think LAC would be his landing spot, if any. Too bad they don't have much we can use. Maybe they consider trading us Blake if we also take that terrible Wes Johnson deal off their hands and include o'quinn, who would really help them off the bench. Flip Griffin to a 3rd team. Not sure what else we can do. I'm not taking Clippers junk and they have no picks. Maybe to Cleveland for Thompson and this year's 1st rounder but Melo really doesn't make much sense for them. I'd hold off for Griffin. We could send them melo and a 3rd team can give them extra depth. If and when a deal happens, it will have to be an elaborate 3 team trade. Maybe Melo to LA, Griffin to boston, Crowder headed to LA too. Bk 1st rounder to us. Fillers to make the contracts work (boston is under the cap which makes it easier.) Something like that could work.
One of the best case scenarios for me in a Melo trade would be a 3 way and i don't care who the third team is as long as the Celtics are one of the teams and i would do everything i can and add players with Melo as long as we get J.Crowder and Avery Bradley along with a draft pick or two. Both Bradley and Crowder play strong defense and both have good offense as well and you add those two around KP and others and i'd be happy for the rebuild around KP process to start. Bradley can play the one or the two and we could even keep D.Rose with that group.
What team and/or player would the Celts take for guys mentioned. I mean you mentioned some pretty valuable assets. And why would anyone give that much for press beaten, fan shit on, Phil bashing.Melo? Think only way Melo gets traded is he gets tired of Phil and demands a trade. Which then leaves us with squat except for possibility we tank and get a KP or Khame Brown.
We can't trade Melo without his approval but we also don't have to trade Melo if we don't want to. You put his name out there and see what teams are willing to give up for him but if you don't like it then it's not a horrible thing to still have Melo on the team. We also have some good players that we could add to any deal that would make teams alright with giving up some better assets whether that be young players or draft picks. Guys like C.Lee, KOQ, J.Holiday, B.Jennings, Kuz, Billy, L.Thomas are all good pieces that we could add one or two to a deal to get a better return for Melo.
I think it's pretty funny that any fan thinks they know what teams would give up for Melo or any player cause there's no way any of us could know. I've seen many players get traded that people thought would never be able to get traded. We traded guys like A.Bargnani, Amare', J.Calderon and others that people were absolutely adamant about us never being able to trade any of them and i know you're gonna come up with what we had to do to trade them or why we ended up trading them but i don't care about all of that cause we still traded them when every single person said there was no way to do it and now people are saying there's no way we could trade Carmelo Anthony....lol.
The biggest thing with trading Melo and getting a good return will be if he gives Phil a list longer than just the Cavs and Clippers and if he doesn't then all that would need to happen is getting a third team involved and a trade can be worked out. I understand that Melo has big money still on his contract, I understand that there's also a trade kicker, i understand that Melo is 32 and will be 33 when the 2017/18 season starts, i understand that Melo is pretty much an offense only player and i also understand that every team knows all of that and everything else there is to know about Melo but even with all of that teams will still want Melo and as long as Phil doesn't get impatient and will stand by what he wants in return and doesn't give in to a team just to get the deal done then around that trade deadline someone will give in and trade for Melo, and if they don't then we just hold onto Melo and trade him in the offseason. We won't get as good a return as we would of 2/3 years ago obviously but i think we'd get a good enough return for him.
Agreed. But question was how the Celts package mentioned would work. I'm all for trying to get better. But not for dumping our best player for a couple of long shots.
newyorker4ever wrote:holfresh wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Rose and Melo have talents that can work with one another as well as KP. The problem I've seen is that the other 2 guys with them are useually useless because Noah can not score if open unless he's wide open under the basket and Lee has not made enough baskets mainly because he doesn't take enough shots. On defense it's just awful. That's the real problem with Melo and Rose. Neither plays hard on defense.The real problem is that Knick fans aren't patient...We traded Shump and JR a few years ago to a Cavs team hovering just above .500...We are 18-22..They took off after the trade...My only concern with this team is the bench..I have no doubt the starters can compete with the better teams in the league..The coach needs to be a defensive coach too..But we don't have that...
The Cavs getting JR and Shump had nothing to do with them winning. Lebron wins on whatever teams he plays on and no matter what players are around him. They're playing just fine without JR right now and Shump is just a piece and nothing more.
Great point. Oh but you forgot to mention Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving. As good as LBJ is, he needs and needed those guys.
HofstraBBall wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Us losing games is on Melo. Defensively he is atrocious for the team's leader. He just brings zero defensive culture to the team.I do have no hard feelings for Melo. I appreciate his talent as a scorer. He's one of the best isolation scorers in the game. However, he is not winning as the man. We're moving nowhere. We're stuck between a fringe playoff team and a lottery team. It's not a good place to be in every year. Moving Melo expediates the rebuilding process.
If the team were able to win something in the now, or Melo was drawing in all-star free agents that could put the Knicks into contending, ok. That's not the case. The trade has made sense for almost 2 years now. However Phil and everyone wanted to give it a try. They have. Time to move on now.
Phil has to step up. Take the heat. Be the bad guy. He's already vilified. He does need to make a trade that gives Knicks some capspace and longterm assets. It won't be easy to make a trade.
It's not just his defense, though. His shooting is worse than the worst shooting team in the league. If he's not going to play defense or shoot respectably, what are we paying him $25 mil for? The 5.9 rebounds? 0.9 steals?
He was shooting 48% before he injured his shoulder..His % plummeted since then..He might be getting paid since the team has no chance to win without him..
Small sample? :) He barely shot better than the worst team last year too. Who cares if the team doesn't win without him? No one's talking about just waiving him. The team doesn't win with him anyway.Small sample yes but not the point..Point is his shooting woes are due to a bad shoulder..I actually think it's just getting better..
The starters can complete..The bench has 8 guys with less than two years experience..Holiday has 3 years..They get out scored every time he leave the court..Bench has had a few shiny moments but they can't compete against good teams..Maybe he should play 48 minutes..But these are the same arguments you had in 2011/12..
That doesn't seem likely. Did he have a bad shoulder all of last year?It's a fact tha t he hurt his shoulder..
And it was hurt all of last year? (That's what I was asking.) If so, that's even more of a problem. If not, then the last 1 1/2 years indicate that he's a 43% volume shooter at this point in his career (which basically means a chucker).Has less excuse this year. Although Lee, Rose and KP have not been the models of consistency. Oh and a starting Center that can't hit a layup or foul shot. But can you tell me the amazing cohorts he had the previous two years and what accolades they have accumulated with other teams? Or how many starter minutes they have logged? Start with his starting PG please.
When you overpay for all your players (especially Melo since he takes up the most $), of course the roster is weak and stretched thin.
holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Us losing games is on Melo. Defensively he is atrocious for the team's leader. He just brings zero defensive culture to the team.I do have no hard feelings for Melo. I appreciate his talent as a scorer. He's one of the best isolation scorers in the game. However, he is not winning as the man. We're moving nowhere. We're stuck between a fringe playoff team and a lottery team. It's not a good place to be in every year. Moving Melo expediates the rebuilding process.
If the team were able to win something in the now, or Melo was drawing in all-star free agents that could put the Knicks into contending, ok. That's not the case. The trade has made sense for almost 2 years now. However Phil and everyone wanted to give it a try. They have. Time to move on now.
Phil has to step up. Take the heat. Be the bad guy. He's already vilified. He does need to make a trade that gives Knicks some capspace and longterm assets. It won't be easy to make a trade.
It's not just his defense, though. His shooting is worse than the worst shooting team in the league. If he's not going to play defense or shoot respectably, what are we paying him $25 mil for? The 5.9 rebounds? 0.9 steals?
He was shooting 48% before he injured his shoulder..His % plummeted since then..He might be getting paid since the team has no chance to win without him..
Small sample? :) He barely shot better than the worst team last year too. Who cares if the team doesn't win without him? No one's talking about just waiving him. The team doesn't win with him anyway.Small sample yes but not the point..Point is his shooting woes are due to a bad shoulder..I actually think it's just getting better..
The starters can complete..The bench has 8 guys with less than two years experience..Holiday has 3 years..They get out scored every time he leave the court..Bench has had a few shiny moments but they can't compete against good teams..Maybe he should play 48 minutes..But these are the same arguments you had in 2011/12..
That doesn't seem likely. Did he have a bad shoulder all of last year?It's a fact tha t he hurt his shoulder..
And it was hurt all of last year? (That's what I was asking.) If so, that's even more of a problem. If not, then the last 1 1/2 years indicate that he's a 43% volume shooter at this point in his career (which basically means a chucker).
You tend to look at things in a light that favors your argument and not look at the full truth of a situation...You can call him a volume shooter or a chucker at 43%, sure..That's the percentage you shoot when you are constantly facing double teams...There were games early in the season where Melo were getting one on one looks because KP and Rose were effective which I thought contributed to his higher scoring percentage..Then he hurt his shoulder a few games before the West Coast trip and finally decided to rest it in GS, a game they more than likely would have lost...You see, I give brownie point to players who play thru injuries and take into consideration they are trying to help the team..I don't try to use it to penalize them and point out their bad play is entirely due to no unforeseen circumstances...
But it's not only Melo, look and LeBron and Wade's shooting percentage as they formed "the big three"..Their shooting percentage increased..My assumption is that as we get better players around Melo, you would see a higher shooting percentage..But I don't think you are interested in any of that...
But most of the times, he plays thru double teams..Most of the times he has been a Knick, the team can't win without him on the court...
How long does that take to get the players you're talking about for Melo? By year 15? 17? Of Melo's career he's going to have the right teammates? It doesn't make sense. Phil couldn't do it in 3 years but he's gonna do it in the next 2? Wade and Lebron were great together but they were extremely good apart too. They never had years in their primes where they shot worse than the worst shooting teams in the league. Perhaps they had a small increase in their percentages together, but Melo needs more than a small bump. He needs a new mindset and a gigantic bump in his shooting (and needs to care about defense again too). To be worth $25 mil, he needs to be a player he's never been. I don't buy that that's gonna happen in year 15 or 17 of his career. I just want the team to cut its losses (and do the same with all our large contract veterans - they're all on bad deals).
Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Us losing games is on Melo. Defensively he is atrocious for the team's leader. He just brings zero defensive culture to the team.I do have no hard feelings for Melo. I appreciate his talent as a scorer. He's one of the best isolation scorers in the game. However, he is not winning as the man. We're moving nowhere. We're stuck between a fringe playoff team and a lottery team. It's not a good place to be in every year. Moving Melo expediates the rebuilding process.
If the team were able to win something in the now, or Melo was drawing in all-star free agents that could put the Knicks into contending, ok. That's not the case. The trade has made sense for almost 2 years now. However Phil and everyone wanted to give it a try. They have. Time to move on now.
Phil has to step up. Take the heat. Be the bad guy. He's already vilified. He does need to make a trade that gives Knicks some capspace and longterm assets. It won't be easy to make a trade.
It's not just his defense, though. His shooting is worse than the worst shooting team in the league. If he's not going to play defense or shoot respectably, what are we paying him $25 mil for? The 5.9 rebounds? 0.9 steals?
He was shooting 48% before he injured his shoulder..His % plummeted since then..He might be getting paid since the team has no chance to win without him..
Small sample? :) He barely shot better than the worst team last year too. Who cares if the team doesn't win without him? No one's talking about just waiving him. The team doesn't win with him anyway.Small sample yes but not the point..Point is his shooting woes are due to a bad shoulder..I actually think it's just getting better..
The starters can complete..The bench has 8 guys with less than two years experience..Holiday has 3 years..They get out scored every time he leave the court..Bench has had a few shiny moments but they can't compete against good teams..Maybe he should play 48 minutes..But these are the same arguments you had in 2011/12..
That doesn't seem likely. Did he have a bad shoulder all of last year?It's a fact tha t he hurt his shoulder..
And it was hurt all of last year? (That's what I was asking.) If so, that's even more of a problem. If not, then the last 1 1/2 years indicate that he's a 43% volume shooter at this point in his career (which basically means a chucker).
You tend to look at things in a light that favors your argument and not look at the full truth of a situation...You can call him a volume shooter or a chucker at 43%, sure..That's the percentage you shoot when you are constantly facing double teams...There were games early in the season where Melo were getting one on one looks because KP and Rose were effective which I thought contributed to his higher scoring percentage..Then he hurt his shoulder a few games before the West Coast trip and finally decided to rest it in GS, a game they more than likely would have lost...You see, I give brownie point to players who play thru injuries and take into consideration they are trying to help the team..I don't try to use it to penalize them and point out their bad play is entirely due to no unforeseen circumstances...
But it's not only Melo, look and LeBron and Wade's shooting percentage as they formed "the big three"..Their shooting percentage increased..My assumption is that as we get better players around Melo, you would see a higher shooting percentage..But I don't think you are interested in any of that...
But most of the times, he plays thru double teams..Most of the times he has been a Knick, the team can't win without him on the court...
How long does that take to get the players you're talking about for Melo? By year 15? 17? Of Melo's career he's going to have the right teammates? It doesn't make sense. Phil couldn't do it in 3 years but he's gonna do it in the next 2? Wade and Lebron were great together but they were extremely good apart too. They never had years in their primes where they shot worse than the worst shooting teams in the league. Perhaps they had a small increase in their percentages together, but Melo needs more than a small bump. He needs a new mindset and a gigantic bump in his shooting (and needs to care about defense again too). To be worth $25 mil, he needs to be a player he's never been. I don't buy that that's gonna happen in year 15 or 17 of his career. I just want the team to cut its losses (and do the same with all our large contract veterans - they're all on bad deals).
I think I responded to your question about a volume scorer..LeBron went from 48% to 54/55% comparing his in Cleveland to his time in Miami back down to 49/50% in Cleveland again...So the difference is obvious...The point really isnt to wait until you finally find pieces around Melo...I'm just trying to illustrate a point that the team around a player matters...
But your argument over the years has been Melo is the problem...But you yourself said a few days ago, what is the point in building with KP when everyone else is useless??...You specifically made that point and now you want to have it the other way when it comes to Melo???..What is the point of having Melo when everyone else is useless???...You look at things in light that favors your argument but don't try reflect the actual truth of the situation...You are promoting a double standard..
Bonn1997 wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Us losing games is on Melo. Defensively he is atrocious for the team's leader. He just brings zero defensive culture to the team.I do have no hard feelings for Melo. I appreciate his talent as a scorer. He's one of the best isolation scorers in the game. However, he is not winning as the man. We're moving nowhere. We're stuck between a fringe playoff team and a lottery team. It's not a good place to be in every year. Moving Melo expediates the rebuilding process.
If the team were able to win something in the now, or Melo was drawing in all-star free agents that could put the Knicks into contending, ok. That's not the case. The trade has made sense for almost 2 years now. However Phil and everyone wanted to give it a try. They have. Time to move on now.
Phil has to step up. Take the heat. Be the bad guy. He's already vilified. He does need to make a trade that gives Knicks some capspace and longterm assets. It won't be easy to make a trade.
It's not just his defense, though. His shooting is worse than the worst shooting team in the league. If he's not going to play defense or shoot respectably, what are we paying him $25 mil for? The 5.9 rebounds? 0.9 steals?
We are paying him to hit the game ending clutch shot to win the game because we are in that situation so often (rolls eyes).
Noah is playing 22 MPG at $17 mil think about that... so in essence its like we signed him for $25 mil because he is not playing 33 mpg but 22. That's horrible PRODUCTION VS CONTRACT VALUE.
Is Rose worth $21 mil? (Not our fault, he's expiring, was a good pick up) Will he be worth what he will be seeking next year? HELL NO!!!
Noah, Rose, Melo... need to go... period.
Melo needs to go, we might not be able to win without him for now but in the overall big picture we need to take one step back before taking two steps forward. I also believe Melo style of play is rubbing off on KP. Whats sad is can Melo play defense? If he wants to. Can Melo pass the ball? Hell yeah, really well in fact. But he doesn't and wont do any of the above. From the time he has been in Syracuse until now he has not gotten any better or matured, he has not grown and is the same Melo stuck in his own little bubble he calls his life.
holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Us losing games is on Melo. Defensively he is atrocious for the team's leader. He just brings zero defensive culture to the team.I do have no hard feelings for Melo. I appreciate his talent as a scorer. He's one of the best isolation scorers in the game. However, he is not winning as the man. We're moving nowhere. We're stuck between a fringe playoff team and a lottery team. It's not a good place to be in every year. Moving Melo expediates the rebuilding process.
If the team were able to win something in the now, or Melo was drawing in all-star free agents that could put the Knicks into contending, ok. That's not the case. The trade has made sense for almost 2 years now. However Phil and everyone wanted to give it a try. They have. Time to move on now.
Phil has to step up. Take the heat. Be the bad guy. He's already vilified. He does need to make a trade that gives Knicks some capspace and longterm assets. It won't be easy to make a trade.
It's not just his defense, though. His shooting is worse than the worst shooting team in the league. If he's not going to play defense or shoot respectably, what are we paying him $25 mil for? The 5.9 rebounds? 0.9 steals?
He was shooting 48% before he injured his shoulder..His % plummeted since then..He might be getting paid since the team has no chance to win without him..
Small sample? :) He barely shot better than the worst team last year too. Who cares if the team doesn't win without him? No one's talking about just waiving him. The team doesn't win with him anyway.Small sample yes but not the point..Point is his shooting woes are due to a bad shoulder..I actually think it's just getting better..
The starters can complete..The bench has 8 guys with less than two years experience..Holiday has 3 years..They get out scored every time he leave the court..Bench has had a few shiny moments but they can't compete against good teams..Maybe he should play 48 minutes..But these are the same arguments you had in 2011/12..
That doesn't seem likely. Did he have a bad shoulder all of last year?It's a fact tha t he hurt his shoulder..
And it was hurt all of last year? (That's what I was asking.) If so, that's even more of a problem. If not, then the last 1 1/2 years indicate that he's a 43% volume shooter at this point in his career (which basically means a chucker).
You tend to look at things in a light that favors your argument and not look at the full truth of a situation...You can call him a volume shooter or a chucker at 43%, sure..That's the percentage you shoot when you are constantly facing double teams...There were games early in the season where Melo were getting one on one looks because KP and Rose were effective which I thought contributed to his higher scoring percentage..Then he hurt his shoulder a few games before the West Coast trip and finally decided to rest it in GS, a game they more than likely would have lost...You see, I give brownie point to players who play thru injuries and take into consideration they are trying to help the team..I don't try to use it to penalize them and point out their bad play is entirely due to no unforeseen circumstances...
But it's not only Melo, look and LeBron and Wade's shooting percentage as they formed "the big three"..Their shooting percentage increased..My assumption is that as we get better players around Melo, you would see a higher shooting percentage..But I don't think you are interested in any of that...
But most of the times, he plays thru double teams..Most of the times he has been a Knick, the team can't win without him on the court...
How long does that take to get the players you're talking about for Melo? By year 15? 17? Of Melo's career he's going to have the right teammates? It doesn't make sense. Phil couldn't do it in 3 years but he's gonna do it in the next 2? Wade and Lebron were great together but they were extremely good apart too. They never had years in their primes where they shot worse than the worst shooting teams in the league. Perhaps they had a small increase in their percentages together, but Melo needs more than a small bump. He needs a new mindset and a gigantic bump in his shooting (and needs to care about defense again too). To be worth $25 mil, he needs to be a player he's never been. I don't buy that that's gonna happen in year 15 or 17 of his career. I just want the team to cut its losses (and do the same with all our large contract veterans - they're all on bad deals).
I think I responded to your question about a volume scorer..LeBron went from 48% to 54/55% comparing his in Cleveland to his time in Miami back down to 49/50% in Cleveland again...So the difference is obvious...The point really isnt to wait until you finally find pieces around Melo...I'm just trying to illustrate a point that the team around a player matters...
But your argument over the years has been Melo is the problem...But you yourself said a few days ago, what is the point in building with KP when everyone else is useless??...You specifically made that point and now you want to have it the other way when it comes to Melo???..What is the point of having Melo when everyone else is useless???...You look at things in light that favors your argument but don't try reflect the actual truth of the situation...You are promoting a double standard..
Wow, nothing you said represents my view. I don't even know where to start.
I did not say Melo is the problem. He's not - he's a symptom of it. I've tried to correct your misunderstanding on this point a number of times.
I did not say your teammates don't matter. They do. But Melo needs an improbable 7 or 8 point bounce in year 14 just to become a good shooter. If you surround him with multiple HOFers, I think he'd get a good bounce (though prob not 7 or 8) but we don't have spare HOFers hanging around.
I did not say building around KP is useless. It's useless *only if* the Knicks continue to do what they've done the past 15 years.
You seem to either miss the caveats in my statements or just totally misunderstand them. If you can't understand what I've written, I'm not surprised it might sound like a double standard or look like I look at things in the wrong light. You've simply misread what I've written.