Knicks · When is it time to hold Phil accountable? (page 1)
And did we bring in Phil to tank every year? Like some are suggesting. If so, why didnt we just save the money on Phil, tank amd then bring him on when we had a better team? After all, its been noted that Phil does not even make the picks in the draft. Gaines does?
And if his plan was to tank. Why bring over 3 guys that cost us $51 million this year and 2 in Lee and Noah that will cost us $30M a year?
There just comes a time when everyone has to buy in and rally around each other and put the effort into the teams betterment.
Knixkik wrote:It all depends on the expectation. For those who wanted to build towards the future, he has done that. He found a potential franchise player and plenty of quality young rotation players (Kuz, Baker, Willy, Holiday, O'Quinn.) He has taken a ton of short-term risks and none of them have paid off, but none of them have been at the expense of long-term building. I think he has failed, to me, in his lack of communication abilities. His job was to bring a culture-change, and his weirdness with players and media has prevented that. But to make the selection of Porzingis and maintaining draft picks while adding talent, i commend him. Adding Noah, Lee, Rose, and Jennings, on paper, looked great this summer. That's a lot of talent, and it's not working out. Not sure if that is on him. But regardless, he is getting paid the big bucks to build a team. He has been unable to do that, but at least he has some momentum going forward with the young guys.
Good post. Agree with most. Reason for thread is not so much hindsight criticism but more to note that for a guy, demanding accountability from his staff and players, he does not seem to act like he has any himself. Biggest mistakes right now is Noah and Lee. Lee I give him a pass as he is what he is. But Noah 17M will be a flexibility barrier for 4 years. And was a risk that should have been seen.
He didn't trade away any firsts, he added a potential franchise corner stone (kp), and some nice cheap players in Kuz and Willy. That's okay to me. I wasn't expecting miracles.
Last 11 not so.
Im wondering do we hold him accountable for CLee, Noah, after just half a season, when for most of it, it was quite good and improving?
If the last three years, I kind of get, Phil had to tear it down, and then rebuild from there. He has been handicapped by low value players to trade and 1st round picks.
Kerr would have bailed given a leaky spine. Fish had a leaky morality, inflated ego, and hyperactive post divorce heat seeking missle!! Too soon for him to be coach, but the guy on paper was awesome!
I don't think Phil has made a major mistake. I think he inherited Melo and there was a preordained agreement for a No Trade Clause with Dolan that he had to adhere to. Im ok with that.
Bascially up until 10 games ago I thought this franchise was really doing much better.
If we went .500, would we be freaking out? Not all the games have been disasters, and our unicorn has been hurt.
Im not sure what we should phil should do? A bad stretch on what was a great season and he should:
1. Display humility
2. Publicly flog Rose
His comments on CBS sports when taken in the full context was really not that bad. I think the media makes a big deal out of it.
I thought Derrick Rose if he was freaking out made a bad decision and suspending him kind of is stupid. I got suspended for cutting a day of school in the 9th grade. They suspended me 3 days. My mom said to principal, "This is stupid, you should make him come in on Saturday and clean for 8 hours, not give him more vacation! He will struggle to keep up with his classes if missing more!!!!! Make him do MORE SCHOOL WORK on top!!! She was right. Principle didn't change his mind. He did say we likely learned more going in to Manhattan for the day. Point is Rose bailed, but if suspended he'd be bailing again. If anything he should spend more time with his team and do something either charitable or polish the floor in the gym! He got fined for not playing, its a first offense, he not noted for being a bad teammate or tardy. If it was family, then let it be!
Somtimes kindness and empathy goes a long way to bond people. Punishment to set an example is not always the right thing. JR smith was a chronic clown and needed to be disciplined.
As for Phil, I don't know other than the win/loss record, what else is there? Are we ready to give up on Noah? Courtney was ripping it up two weeks ago, was told to shoot more and was seen as a bargain contract. Now he is a liability?
Tyson Chandler huge mistake. Signing Derek Fisher to a long term deal, huge mistake. Trading Shumpert and JR for nothing, mistake. Signing Noah huge mistake.
Talking through Rosen huge mistake.
MS wrote:Now is the time.Taking Knick job... biggest mistake. I think its obvious after Walsh, Isiah, Phil that this franchise will never learn, and neither will the fans.Tyson Chandler huge mistake. Signing Derek Fisher to a long term deal, huge mistake. Trading Shumpert and JR for nothing, mistake. Signing Noah huge mistake.
Talking through Rosen huge mistake.
Phil has done something no other GM has. He's kept our pick and added young talent. If we flounder we increase our chance of a blue chip player in the draft. Most of the very good teams were bad long enough to amass that talent in the draft. Green, Curry, Klay come to mind. Its very tough to quickly turn things around in the NBA. It happens yes, but assuming you can duplicate those circumstances isnt realistic. I think he's doing it right. He's added good player and drafted well. It will click when it clicks.
Or we could "hold Phil accountable" for our hurt feelings and 2nd guess every move, despite knowing how silly that is anyway. Tell me the GM you want why its going to be different.
Cracks me up when people like Briggs cry about the signings when the guy was pining to pay Allan Crabbe $18mm a year and the guy is total trash. Noah's value will present itself in time and Lee is a tradable player.
fishmike wrote:I think the hardest thing with Phil is that at times he appears to be so disconnected from the job he has and the team. Giving Melo a trade kicker and a ntc and then continually taking shots at him in the press is a sh@tty way to do business. I also don't like Rambis being pushed onto Hornacek and I think Rambis's presence in part has something to do with the dysfunction that is going on with the team now.MS wrote:Now is the time.Taking Knick job... biggest mistake. I think its obvious after Walsh, Isiah, Phil that this franchise will never learn, and neither will the fans.Tyson Chandler huge mistake. Signing Derek Fisher to a long term deal, huge mistake. Trading Shumpert and JR for nothing, mistake. Signing Noah huge mistake.
Talking through Rosen huge mistake.
Phil has done something no other GM has. He's kept our pick and added young talent. If we flounder we increase our chance of a blue chip player in the draft. Most of the very good teams were bad long enough to amass that talent in the draft. Green, Curry, Klay come to mind. Its very tough to quickly turn things around in the NBA. It happens yes, but assuming you can duplicate those circumstances isnt realistic. I think he's doing it right. He's added good player and drafted well. It will click when it clicks.
Or we could "hold Phil accountable" for our hurt feelings and 2nd guess every move, despite knowing how silly that is anyway. Tell me the GM you want why its going to be different.
Cracks me up when people like Briggs cry about the signings when the guy was pining to pay Allan Crabbe $18mm a year and the guy is total trash. Noah's value will present itself in time and Lee is a tradable player.
The only reason that I am not all in for Phil just leaving is that the next in command is Mills. Mills was horrible when he replaced Grunwald and he was over MSG when Isiah was ruining the Knicks.
One other thing, guys in the business talk about how little Phil puts into the job compared to other guys in the same position. Phil has the name to keep Dolan away and is smart enough to listen to Gaines and his scouts but I don't think he deserves credit for much else.
smackeddog wrote:What was he meant to do? We keep hiring these saviours, deal them a bum hand and then complain when they don't magic something out of their backsides.He didn't trade away any firsts, he added a potential franchise corner stone (kp), and some nice cheap players in Kuz and Willy. That's okay to me. I wasn't expecting miracles.
Exactly right. If the expectation wasn't tremendously high because of his name, than he hasn't done a bad job. For people who were focused on rebuilding for the future, he has done that. Added a franchise talent with his lottery pick, added potential role player talent with late picks and free agency, and maintain draft picks. Most people interested in a rebuild would have signed up for that, even if he has gone about it in an unorthodox way.
He tried to bring in a defensive SG in Lee. He looked like a solid 3nD guy but he's been bad on D this year. I don't think taking a flyer on Rose and BJ was bad at all. He's not locked into either guy long term. So basically Phil is in a good position going into the trade deadline and the offseason.
CrushAlot wrote:fishmike wrote:I think the hardest thing with Phil is that at times he appears to be so disconnected from the job he has and the team. Giving Melo a trade kicker and a ntc and then continually taking shots at him in the press is a sh@tty way to do business. I also don't like Rambis being pushed onto Hornacek and I think Rambis's presence in part has something to do with the dysfunction that is going on with the team now.MS wrote:Now is the time.Taking Knick job... biggest mistake. I think its obvious after Walsh, Isiah, Phil that this franchise will never learn, and neither will the fans.Tyson Chandler huge mistake. Signing Derek Fisher to a long term deal, huge mistake. Trading Shumpert and JR for nothing, mistake. Signing Noah huge mistake.
Talking through Rosen huge mistake.
Phil has done something no other GM has. He's kept our pick and added young talent. If we flounder we increase our chance of a blue chip player in the draft. Most of the very good teams were bad long enough to amass that talent in the draft. Green, Curry, Klay come to mind. Its very tough to quickly turn things around in the NBA. It happens yes, but assuming you can duplicate those circumstances isnt realistic. I think he's doing it right. He's added good player and drafted well. It will click when it clicks.
Or we could "hold Phil accountable" for our hurt feelings and 2nd guess every move, despite knowing how silly that is anyway. Tell me the GM you want why its going to be different.
Cracks me up when people like Briggs cry about the signings when the guy was pining to pay Allan Crabbe $18mm a year and the guy is total trash. Noah's value will present itself in time and Lee is a tradable player.
The only reason that I am not all in for Phil just leaving is that the next in command is Mills. Mills was horrible when he replaced Grunwald and he was over MSG when Isiah was ruining the Knicks.
One other thing, guys in the business talk about how little Phil puts into the job compared to other guys in the same position. Phil has the name to keep Dolan away and is smart enough to listen to Gaines and his scouts but I don't think he deserves credit for much else.
I agree - especially the bolded part.
The best thing you can credit Phil for is keeping Dolan out of the way- at least, that appears to be the case.
Where I want some kind of acceptance of blame from Phil is turning over the roster for the third time with no visible improvement. I don't want him fired, but I would like a little mea culpa.
fishmike wrote:MS wrote:Now is the time.Taking Knick job... biggest mistake. I think its obvious after Walsh, Isiah, Phil that this franchise will never learn, and neither will the fans.Tyson Chandler huge mistake. Signing Derek Fisher to a long term deal, huge mistake. Trading Shumpert and JR for nothing, mistake. Signing Noah huge mistake.
Talking through Rosen huge mistake.
Phil has done something no other GM has. He's kept our pick and added young talent. If we flounder we increase our chance of a blue chip player in the draft. Most of the very good teams were bad long enough to amass that talent in the draft. Green, Curry, Klay come to mind. Its very tough to quickly turn things around in the NBA. It happens yes, but assuming you can duplicate those circumstances isnt realistic. I think he's doing it right. He's added good player and drafted well. It will click when it clicks.
Or we could "hold Phil accountable" for our hurt feelings and 2nd guess every move, despite knowing how silly that is anyway. Tell me the GM you want why its going to be different.
Cracks me up when people like Briggs cry about the signings when the guy was pining to pay Allan Crabbe $18mm a year and the guy is total trash. Noah's value will present itself in time and Lee is a tradable player.
Fair enough. Dont think feelings have anything to do with it. If its fair game to call out players deficiencies, why not a GM's? Second guessing asside. Specially when some were bad judgements. Not to mention, we are talking about Phil Freakin Jackson. Kinda of a higher expectation? No? If Gaines was the one that wanted KP, then we can say that Phil's use was in FA. And sure, guys like Lee filled a void and made sense regardless of how he plays. Noah though? Age, injury history and on a decline? And you sign him for starter money? Rose, injury history, bad fit. Not a great decision either. Would expect more from PJ. Are these his only mistakes and is it a decent batting average. Sure. But thread was, when do we hold him accountable? 3 years, 4,5?
You asked who would do better? Well we would have to know who is working non stop in the office, on the phones building ties, working to make the organazation a player friendly destination, building a consistent hard working enviroment full of excellent flowing communnication channels . Cant say that anyone knows the answer but can tell you there are probably a lot of GM's out there doing these things 24/7.
I think Phil has only two trades that are above C, the Prigs trade and the WIlly G trade. I think both trades are As the rest of his deals suck and was very short sided. He continues to attach players with low value to players with high value which shorts the return on the trade assets he receives.
Bottom line every win now team build has been a failure. The insistence of a triangle culture was a failure. His love and devotion to Rambis is a failure. His need to create controversy win the team is doing well then hide when they are not equals failure. His arrogance has lead to poor relationships around the league which hurts his ability to build a team. His tenure as team president has not been goink that well.
fishmike wrote:MS wrote:Now is the time.Taking Knick job... biggest mistake. I think its obvious after Walsh, Isiah, Phil that this franchise will never learn, and neither will the fans.Tyson Chandler huge mistake. Signing Derek Fisher to a long term deal, huge mistake. Trading Shumpert and JR for nothing, mistake. Signing Noah huge mistake.
Talking through Rosen huge mistake.
Phil has done something no other GM has. He's kept our pick and added young talent. If we flounder we increase our chance of a blue chip player in the draft. Most of the very good teams were bad long enough to amass that talent in the draft. Green, Curry, Klay come to mind. Its very tough to quickly turn things around in the NBA. It happens yes, but assuming you can duplicate those circumstances isnt realistic. I think he's doing it right. He's added good player and drafted well. It will click when it clicks.
Or we could "hold Phil accountable" for our hurt feelings and 2nd guess every move, despite knowing how silly that is anyway. Tell me the GM you want why its going to be different.
Cracks me up when people like Briggs cry about the signings when the guy was pining to pay Allan Crabbe $18mm a year and the guy is total trash. Noah's value will present itself in time and Lee is a tradable player.
this is kind of my thinking. He made good moves. Before season we were heads we win, tails you lose. ROse pans out -- great; if he doesn't, that;s fine too -- we have cap room, picks etc.
biggest issues is we showed promised, got psyched, then crushed and now we need to burn some witches.
CrushAlot wrote:fishmike wrote:I think the hardest thing with Phil is that at times he appears to be so disconnected from the job he has and the team. Giving Melo a trade kicker and a ntc and then continually taking shots at him in the press is a sh@tty way to do business. I also don't like Rambis being pushed onto Hornacek and I think Rambis's presence in part has something to do with the dysfunction that is going on with the team now.MS wrote:Now is the time.Taking Knick job... biggest mistake. I think its obvious after Walsh, Isiah, Phil that this franchise will never learn, and neither will the fans.Tyson Chandler huge mistake. Signing Derek Fisher to a long term deal, huge mistake. Trading Shumpert and JR for nothing, mistake. Signing Noah huge mistake.
Talking through Rosen huge mistake.
Phil has done something no other GM has. He's kept our pick and added young talent. If we flounder we increase our chance of a blue chip player in the draft. Most of the very good teams were bad long enough to amass that talent in the draft. Green, Curry, Klay come to mind. Its very tough to quickly turn things around in the NBA. It happens yes, but assuming you can duplicate those circumstances isnt realistic. I think he's doing it right. He's added good player and drafted well. It will click when it clicks.
Or we could "hold Phil accountable" for our hurt feelings and 2nd guess every move, despite knowing how silly that is anyway. Tell me the GM you want why its going to be different.
Cracks me up when people like Briggs cry about the signings when the guy was pining to pay Allan Crabbe $18mm a year and the guy is total trash. Noah's value will present itself in time and Lee is a tradable player.
The only reason that I am not all in for Phil just leaving is that the next in command is Mills. Mills was horrible when he replaced Grunwald and he was over MSG when Isiah was ruining the Knicks.
One other thing, guys in the business talk about how little Phil puts into the job compared to other guys in the same position. Phil has the name to keep Dolan away and is smart enough to listen to Gaines and his scouts but I don't think he deserves credit for much else.
Phil used to needle MJ and Kobe too. Think about it. Who else can tell those guys or Shaq that they need to improve their game (especially when they were already a winning club) and have the players respond. Sure they hated it but they responded
in our case, we've been losing for years and when melo gets called out it becomes a burn Phil moment
Chandler wrote:The difference is he doesn't talk to Melo on a day to day basis like a coach would. He also doesn't talk with the media ever. Taking shots from a far and not dealing with the result is not an effective way to handle things. If Phil called out one of the guys you mentioned he had to interact with them in practice or at a game. Phil isn't interacting with anyone. He is just dropping bombs when the team is doing well and when it isn't. It is far from an effective way to communicate in my opinion.CrushAlot wrote:fishmike wrote:I think the hardest thing with Phil is that at times he appears to be so disconnected from the job he has and the team. Giving Melo a trade kicker and a ntc and then continually taking shots at him in the press is a sh@tty way to do business. I also don't like Rambis being pushed onto Hornacek and I think Rambis's presence in part has something to do with the dysfunction that is going on with the team now.MS wrote:Now is the time.Taking Knick job... biggest mistake. I think its obvious after Walsh, Isiah, Phil that this franchise will never learn, and neither will the fans.Tyson Chandler huge mistake. Signing Derek Fisher to a long term deal, huge mistake. Trading Shumpert and JR for nothing, mistake. Signing Noah huge mistake.
Talking through Rosen huge mistake.
Phil has done something no other GM has. He's kept our pick and added young talent. If we flounder we increase our chance of a blue chip player in the draft. Most of the very good teams were bad long enough to amass that talent in the draft. Green, Curry, Klay come to mind. Its very tough to quickly turn things around in the NBA. It happens yes, but assuming you can duplicate those circumstances isnt realistic. I think he's doing it right. He's added good player and drafted well. It will click when it clicks.
Or we could "hold Phil accountable" for our hurt feelings and 2nd guess every move, despite knowing how silly that is anyway. Tell me the GM you want why its going to be different.
Cracks me up when people like Briggs cry about the signings when the guy was pining to pay Allan Crabbe $18mm a year and the guy is total trash. Noah's value will present itself in time and Lee is a tradable player.
The only reason that I am not all in for Phil just leaving is that the next in command is Mills. Mills was horrible when he replaced Grunwald and he was over MSG when Isiah was ruining the Knicks.
One other thing, guys in the business talk about how little Phil puts into the job compared to other guys in the same position. Phil has the name to keep Dolan away and is smart enough to listen to Gaines and his scouts but I don't think he deserves credit for much else.Phil used to needle MJ and Kobe too. Think about it. Who else can tell those guys or Shaq that they need to improve their game (especially when they were already a winning club) and have the players respond. Sure they hated it but they responded
in our case, we've been losing for years and when melo gets called out it becomes a burn Phil moment
Melo has to deal with the media every day--drama whatever maybe BSing for Phil etc... Phil doesnt do anything with the media-so its all on Melo there and thats true.