Knicks · What to do with Noah?!?! (page 1)
Willy tonight showed his entire offensive arsenal. He is a super gifted player in the post, with a wide array of moves, excellent foot work and great timing on getting offensive rebounds and getting good position. He had 17 and 11 in only 19 minutes and outplayed Harford. This is only scratching the surface of what he's capable of doing and his potential once he gets comfortable.
Plumlee, got on a train today from the D league when he was called up last minute, and was thrown in there after a long time and held his own against a contending eastern conference team. He is a floor general on Defense; Horny said today how much he screams and calls things out on D. He is a bull in the middle and gives maximum effort every second. He sets hard screens and rolls well to the hoop (perfect for the Horny spread offense style). To me, that's a perfect back up center or 3rd center. He needs minutes and to be in the rotation!
Which leaves us to Noah, who was given the huge contract by Phil, which turned out to be a mistake. Admit it was a mistake, Phil. He is no longer a starter. He is an offensive liability on offense--essentially playing 4 on 5--and he is not the stalwart on defense he once was after age, mileage and injuries have finally caught up to him.
Does he have a role on this team going forward even on the bench? Is he honestly a better option right now than the 3 aforementioned Centers above (didn't even bring up KOQ).
If you're Horny, what do you do? Do you rest him more? Play him less, or drop him out of the rotation entirely. Can he even do this and make Phil look bad after his big signing? Will it cause friction?
This is definitely a problem. Interesting to see how it will play out.
The team is 5-0 without Noah now.
Not sure what the answer is - he's a hard guy to trade. Hopefully he handles being benched gracefully.
crzymdups wrote:Agreed.The team is 5-0 without Noah now.
Not sure what the answer is - he's a hard guy to trade. Hopefully he handles being benched gracefully.
are we really 5-0 without Noah?
I can't believe that.
franco12 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Agreed.The team is 5-0 without Noah now.
Not sure what the answer is - he's a hard guy to trade. Hopefully he handles being benched gracefully.
are we really 5-0 without Noah?
I can't believe that.
It is true.
11/20 against ATL - Knicks win 104-94
11/22 against POR - Knicks win 107-103
11/30 against MIN - Knicks win 106-104
12/2 against MIN - Knicks win 118-114
Tonight against BOS - Knicks win 117-106
edit: Small sample size, but - the defense in those 5 wins gave up 104ppg. Overall on the season we are giving up 109ppg when Noah plays.
If the Knicks gave up 104ppg that'd be good for around 11th in the league. 109ppg is 25th in the league.
Knixkik wrote:He should play 15 mins or so off the bench with the 2nd unit for sure. Still brings energy and leadership. Plumlee is nice to have for sure, but we shouldn't get carried away with him yet. I wouldn't be surprised if o'quinn is dealt to fill another area of need. Willy is making it hard to keep him out if the rotation so something has to give.
The center position has been a pleasant surprise for us, despite Noah's poor play. I only gave Noah two yearz-max-as an impact player. It looks like he doesn't even have that, but it doesn't concern me. I always expected KP to takeover his role anyway. If Noah can be a mentor for the young guys I'll take it. Yes his contract is bad, but it's not so bad when you consider the cheap young talent we have and the percentage of the salary cap it actually takes up. Heck, I don't care if Noah still starts as long as the majority of the minutes are gradually given to Billy and KOQ. I'm more concerned about the pointguard spot going forward. We don't have the luxury of possessing young, cheap talent at that position to plug in.
Knixkik wrote:He should play 15 mins or so off the bench with the 2nd unit for sure. Still brings energy and leadership. Plumlee is nice to have for sure, but we shouldn't get carried away with him yet. I wouldn't be surprised if o'quinn is dealt to fill another area of need. Willy is making it hard to keep him out if the rotation so something has to give.
I agree. Noah still has worth in certain matchups. His deficiencies on offense make him a non-starter now. He can be useful against a real low post type C. Keep him but explain to him this is your role now. Help the young ones and support the team. Of course, if someone calls looking for Noah, you listen and make a deal.
KOQ and WH should come off the bench for KP and Melo.
Kuz must remain at the 3 and play 30+ mpg. HOliday must play. Lee must fight for his time. He was good last night.
SocraticBallin22 wrote:Plumlee, got on a train today from the D league when he was called up last minute, and was thrown in there after a long time and held his own against a contending eastern conference team. He is a floor general on Defense; Horny said today how much he screams and calls things out on D. He is a bull in the middle and gives maximum effort every second. He sets hard screens and rolls well to the hoop (perfect for the Horny spread offense style). To me, that's a perfect back up center or 3rd center. He needs minutes and to be in the rotation!Isn't this essentially describing Noah minus the years of playoff experience?
I agree with what others have said, Noah should come off the bench. You still can't just dismiss his rebounding and passing ability, not to mention his playoff experience if we somehow can make that happen.
SocraticBallin22 wrote:We stared discussing this in the game thread after the game, but I feel this topic is so important it deserves its own post. Horny has already hinted that when KP comes back from injury, he will play at the 5, with Melo shifting to the 4. This small ball attack is the type of spread offense that Horny wants to play, while it hides Melo more on defense at the 4 and gives him more value.Willy tonight showed his entire offensive arsenal. He is a super gifted player in the post, with a wide array of moves, excellent foot work and great timing on getting offensive rebounds and getting good position. He had 17 and 11 in only 19 minutes and outplayed Harford. This is only scratching the surface of what he's capable of doing and his potential once he gets comfortable.
Plumlee, got on a train today from the D league when he was called up last minute, and was thrown in there after a long time and held his own against a contending eastern conference team. He is a floor general on Defense; Horny said today how much he screams and calls things out on D. He is a bull in the middle and gives maximum effort every second. He sets hard screens and rolls well to the hoop (perfect for the Horny spread offense style). To me, that's a perfect back up center or 3rd center. He needs minutes and to be in the rotation!
Which leaves us to Noah, who was given the huge contract by Phil, which turned out to be a mistake. Admit it was a mistake, Phil. He is no longer a starter. He is an offensive liability on offense--essentially playing 4 on 5--and he is not the stalwart on defense he once was after age, mileage and injuries have finally caught up to him.
Does he have a role on this team going forward even on the bench? Is he honestly a better option right now than the 3 aforementioned Centers above (didn't even bring up KOQ).
If you're Horny, what do you do? Do you rest him more? Play him less, or drop him out of the rotation entirely. Can he even do this and make Phil look bad after his big signing? Will it cause friction?
This is definitely a problem. Interesting to see how it will play out.
You guys are underestimating what Noah still gives a team because you've gotten yourselves so caught up in his contract. He's averaging almost 12 boards a game and still gives all energy all the time and while his defense isn't what it was it's still not all the bad. He could start for a lot of teams but for what JH is trying to do he doesn't fut when we're playing smaller lineups but when we play big cause the other team has a big center then he's gonna be very much useful still. If you look at the contracts that got handed out last offseason Noah fits right in with the crazy ones that were given out and if he's not worth $17 mil per in todays NBA then it's not much lower than that that he is worth...maybe like $15 mil per.
newyorker4ever wrote:Yea exactly. He's a better fit with a team that moves the ball. He's a high assist guy and a ball mover. If you are going to ask him to stand around and watch Melo/Rose go 1-1 then yea... might as well run Plumleee out there. If you are going to run a real offense and move the ball Noah would be great... and we have seen that from him this season. Folks have short memoriesSocraticBallin22 wrote:We stared discussing this in the game thread after the game, but I feel this topic is so important it deserves its own post. Horny has already hinted that when KP comes back from injury, he will play at the 5, with Melo shifting to the 4. This small ball attack is the type of spread offense that Horny wants to play, while it hides Melo more on defense at the 4 and gives him more value.Willy tonight showed his entire offensive arsenal. He is a super gifted player in the post, with a wide array of moves, excellent foot work and great timing on getting offensive rebounds and getting good position. He had 17 and 11 in only 19 minutes and outplayed Harford. This is only scratching the surface of what he's capable of doing and his potential once he gets comfortable.
Plumlee, got on a train today from the D league when he was called up last minute, and was thrown in there after a long time and held his own against a contending eastern conference team. He is a floor general on Defense; Horny said today how much he screams and calls things out on D. He is a bull in the middle and gives maximum effort every second. He sets hard screens and rolls well to the hoop (perfect for the Horny spread offense style). To me, that's a perfect back up center or 3rd center. He needs minutes and to be in the rotation!
Which leaves us to Noah, who was given the huge contract by Phil, which turned out to be a mistake. Admit it was a mistake, Phil. He is no longer a starter. He is an offensive liability on offense--essentially playing 4 on 5--and he is not the stalwart on defense he once was after age, mileage and injuries have finally caught up to him.
Does he have a role on this team going forward even on the bench? Is he honestly a better option right now than the 3 aforementioned Centers above (didn't even bring up KOQ).
If you're Horny, what do you do? Do you rest him more? Play him less, or drop him out of the rotation entirely. Can he even do this and make Phil look bad after his big signing? Will it cause friction?
This is definitely a problem. Interesting to see how it will play out.
You guys are underestimating what Noah still gives a team because you've gotten yourselves so caught up in his contract. He's averaging almost 12 boards a game and still gives all energy all the time and while his defense isn't what it was it's still not all the bad. He could start for a lot of teams but for what JH is trying to do he doesn't fut when we're playing smaller lineups but when we play big cause the other team has a big center then he's gonna be very much useful still. If you look at the contracts that got handed out last offseason Noah fits right in with the crazy ones that were given out and if he's not worth $17 mil per in todays NBA then it's not much lower than that that he is worth...maybe like $15 mil per.
newyorker4ever wrote:SocraticBallin22 wrote:We stared discussing this in the game thread after the game, but I feel this topic is so important it deserves its own post. Horny has already hinted that when KP comes back from injury, he will play at the 5, with Melo shifting to the 4. This small ball attack is the type of spread offense that Horny wants to play, while it hides Melo more on defense at the 4 and gives him more value.Willy tonight showed his entire offensive arsenal. He is a super gifted player in the post, with a wide array of moves, excellent foot work and great timing on getting offensive rebounds and getting good position. He had 17 and 11 in only 19 minutes and outplayed Harford. This is only scratching the surface of what he's capable of doing and his potential once he gets comfortable.
Plumlee, got on a train today from the D league when he was called up last minute, and was thrown in there after a long time and held his own against a contending eastern conference team. He is a floor general on Defense; Horny said today how much he screams and calls things out on D. He is a bull in the middle and gives maximum effort every second. He sets hard screens and rolls well to the hoop (perfect for the Horny spread offense style). To me, that's a perfect back up center or 3rd center. He needs minutes and to be in the rotation!
Which leaves us to Noah, who was given the huge contract by Phil, which turned out to be a mistake. Admit it was a mistake, Phil. He is no longer a starter. He is an offensive liability on offense--essentially playing 4 on 5--and he is not the stalwart on defense he once was after age, mileage and injuries have finally caught up to him.
Does he have a role on this team going forward even on the bench? Is he honestly a better option right now than the 3 aforementioned Centers above (didn't even bring up KOQ).
If you're Horny, what do you do? Do you rest him more? Play him less, or drop him out of the rotation entirely. Can he even do this and make Phil look bad after his big signing? Will it cause friction?
This is definitely a problem. Interesting to see how it will play out.
You guys are underestimating what Noah still gives a team because you've gotten yourselves so caught up in his contract. He's averaging almost 12 boards a game and still gives all energy all the time and while his defense isn't what it was it's still not all the bad. He could start for a lot of teams but for what JH is trying to do he doesn't fut when we're playing smaller lineups but when we play big cause the other team has a big center then he's gonna be very much useful still. If you look at the contracts that got handed out last offseason Noah fits right in with the crazy ones that were given out and if he's not worth $17 mil per in todays NBA then it's not much lower than that that he is worth...maybe like $15 mil per.
12 boards a game? Are you looking at his 2013 stats by accident?
That said, the problem with him is entirely his contract. He's not a bad player and I'd be happy to have him at a lower price. I don't think he makes a big enough impact to use up 4 times as much cap space on him as KOQ though. You don't find old role players like him making that kind of money on the smart teams' rosters. The only somewhat close example is JR Smith in Cleveland (about 13 mil) and I think they'd admit that was a bad deal.
newyorker4ever wrote:SocraticBallin22 wrote:We stared discussing this in the game thread after the game, but I feel this topic is so important it deserves its own post. Horny has already hinted that when KP comes back from injury, he will play at the 5, with Melo shifting to the 4. This small ball attack is the type of spread offense that Horny wants to play, while it hides Melo more on defense at the 4 and gives him more value.Willy tonight showed his entire offensive arsenal. He is a super gifted player in the post, with a wide array of moves, excellent foot work and great timing on getting offensive rebounds and getting good position. He had 17 and 11 in only 19 minutes and outplayed Harford. This is only scratching the surface of what he's capable of doing and his potential once he gets comfortable.
Plumlee, got on a train today from the D league when he was called up last minute, and was thrown in there after a long time and held his own against a contending eastern conference team. He is a floor general on Defense; Horny said today how much he screams and calls things out on D. He is a bull in the middle and gives maximum effort every second. He sets hard screens and rolls well to the hoop (perfect for the Horny spread offense style). To me, that's a perfect back up center or 3rd center. He needs minutes and to be in the rotation!
Which leaves us to Noah, who was given the huge contract by Phil, which turned out to be a mistake. Admit it was a mistake, Phil. He is no longer a starter. He is an offensive liability on offense--essentially playing 4 on 5--and he is not the stalwart on defense he once was after age, mileage and injuries have finally caught up to him.
Does he have a role on this team going forward even on the bench? Is he honestly a better option right now than the 3 aforementioned Centers above (didn't even bring up KOQ).
If you're Horny, what do you do? Do you rest him more? Play him less, or drop him out of the rotation entirely. Can he even do this and make Phil look bad after his big signing? Will it cause friction?
This is definitely a problem. Interesting to see how it will play out.
You guys are underestimating what Noah still gives a team because you've gotten yourselves so caught up in his contract. He's averaging almost 12 boards a game and still gives all energy all the time and while his defense isn't what it was it's still not all the bad. He could start for a lot of teams but for what JH is trying to do he doesn't fut when we're playing smaller lineups but when we play big cause the other team has a big center then he's gonna be very much useful still. If you look at the contracts that got handed out last offseason Noah fits right in with the crazy ones that were given out and if he's not worth $17 mil per in todays NBA then it's not much lower than that that he is worth...maybe like $15 mil per.
I don't think Noah is a bad player and his contract isn't even a concern to me. The issue is, the game being played the way it is today, has essentially passed him by in some aspects. He can't have the same impact today as he did a few years ago. Everyone is playing small, spacing the game out more, and pushing the pace. Noah has an old school game that fit well 3 or 4 years ago, but has lost some of it's luster. It's the same reason you can't start the bruising low-post centers today. Noah would be unlikely to start for nearly every team in the league simply because of how the game has changed. His 7 hustle points and 10 rebs simply don't have the same impact they used to. But as a backup center, he still has some value.
You don't pay a bench center 17-19MM a season on a four year deal. Willy, KOQ and Plumee make 7MM combined and they would double his production.
It's fine to give out a two year deal, but when he starts making 18 and 19MM in years 3 and 4 it's going to prevent the team from getting the pieces they need.
His numbers and per are already pedestrian. Phil was in such a rush to give Chandler away for nothing and the guy is averaging more points, rbs and blocks.
If Noah can succeed in this role, I believe Thibs would be interested, among others.
MS wrote:He's overpaid and doesn't have much left in the tank. Unless he's attacking the basket and being active offensively he's limiting the offense.Leads team in rebounds per game and offensive rebounder per game. Is 2nd in the league behind Dwight Howard for offesive rebounding % and he's 4th in the NBA for offensive rebs per game.You don't pay a bench center 17-19MM a season on a four year deal. Willy, KOQ and Plumee make 7MM combined and they would double his production.
It's fine to give out a two year deal, but when he starts making 18 and 19MM in years 3 and 4 it's going to prevent the team from getting the pieces they need.
His numbers and per are already pedestrian. Phil was in such a rush to give Chandler away for nothing and the guy is averaging more points, rbs and blocks.
I love when guys like Plumlee have a good game and you read posts about how they would be just as good as Noah. Maybe you are right but I disagree.
The biggest problem with Noah has been fit. He's a ball mover and guy who creates many good things in motion. Tough to do that when you are staring at Rose and Melo pounding the ball. He sets a good screen but has his hands tied. In games where the ball has moved Noah has been excellent.
fishmike wrote:MS wrote:He's overpaid and doesn't have much left in the tank. Unless he's attacking the basket and being active offensively he's limiting the offense.Leads team in rebounds per game and offensive rebounder per game. Is 2nd in the league behind Dwight Howard for offesive rebounding % and he's 4th in the NBA for offensive rebs per game.You don't pay a bench center 17-19MM a season on a four year deal. Willy, KOQ and Plumee make 7MM combined and they would double his production.
It's fine to give out a two year deal, but when he starts making 18 and 19MM in years 3 and 4 it's going to prevent the team from getting the pieces they need.
His numbers and per are already pedestrian. Phil was in such a rush to give Chandler away for nothing and the guy is averaging more points, rbs and blocks.
I love when guys like Plumlee have a good game and you read posts about how they would be just as good as Noah. Maybe you are right but I disagree.
The biggest problem with Noah has been fit. He's a ball mover and guy who creates many good things in motion. Tough to do that when you are staring at Rose and Melo pounding the ball. He sets a good screen but has his hands tied. In games where the ball has moved Noah has been excellent.
i agree with this except the last point. Biggest problem is his offensive confidence is shot at the moment, and teams play 5 on 4 when the knicks have the ball. He needs a hypnotist or horse whisperer to hit his FTs and develop one or two moves (even cuts) when ignored by defense. almost all of his points are tip ins, it seems and he's having difficult even with layups.
Having said that, he has a quality winning attitude and wants to be here. We need to work with him IMO and be patient. KOQ sucked last yeat and patience helped; hoping for same here
Willy might be a trading chip.
As for Noah, he is very valuable when healthy. Watch the Milwaukee game in Milwaukee and where melo finds him for easy baskets. Watch his offensive rebounds and how HE starts a fast break.
He needs to just be decent with a 15 footer. Is it his shoulder?
If it is, let him sit.
As for Willy, he has not done well in crunch time on defense and its why he has sat. He seems to thrive in transition.