Knicks · open up cap sapce for Jru Holiday (page 3)
newyorker4ever wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:BRIGGS wrote:I'd give him an offer 4 years 100mm. 25 mm per for 4
We just spent 30 mm per for Noah and Lee. We pay Rose over 20 mm. Paying Holiday 25 mm is reasonable for a guy who when he is healthy is an upper tier pg.
Maybe we should look at how much the smart teams are paying players and try to follow that rather than repeating our own mistakes.The smart teams? I'm guessing the Spurs would top your list of smart teams and they way overpaid for Danny Green.
is that true? I thought Danny accepted a deal from SAS much lower than other offers, because he wanted to stay in SAS
So SAS may have overpaid (as of today) but compared to the market at time I thought they got a discount. AM I misremembering?
newyorker4ever wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:BRIGGS wrote:I'd give him an offer 4 years 100mm. 25 mm per for 4
We just spent 30 mm per for Noah and Lee. We pay Rose over 20 mm. Paying Holiday 25 mm is reasonable for a guy who when he is healthy is an upper tier pg.
Maybe we should look at how much the smart teams are paying players and try to follow that rather than repeating our own mistakes.The smart teams? I'm guessing the Spurs would top your list of smart teams and they way overpaid for Danny Green.
IF the Spurs overpaid for Green what the heck did Phil do when he gave Lee his contract. Lee is a worse player that is older and still makes more than Green. Green is ahigher volume 3pt shooter and one of the best defensive guards in the game.
newyorker4ever wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:BRIGGS wrote:I'd give him an offer 4 years 100mm. 25 mm per for 4
We just spent 30 mm per for Noah and Lee. We pay Rose over 20 mm. Paying Holiday 25 mm is reasonable for a guy who when he is healthy is an upper tier pg.
Maybe we should look at how much the smart teams are paying players and try to follow that rather than repeating our own mistakes.The smart teams? I'm guessing the Spurs would top your list of smart teams and they way overpaid for Danny Green.
I wasn't implying that the smart teams are perfect. If you take the 6 best run teams, that's close to 100 players. Of course not all 100 are gonna be good decisions. I meant, look at how much production they generally get out of $5 mil, $10 mil, $15 mil, $20 mil, etc.
Think younger and more athletic. Players who will peak with KP, Willy and the 2017 lottery pick.
franco12 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:franco12 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:franco12 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:crzymdups wrote:BRIGGS wrote:I'd give him an offer 4 years 100mm. 25 mm per for 4
We just spent 30 mm per for Noah and Lee. We pay Rose over 20 mm. Paying Holiday 25 mm is reasonable for a guy who when he is healthy is an upper tier pg.Agree completely - he'd be my Number 1 target in FA. Unless we are able to get a true stud PG in the draft. Then I'd re-sign Jennings for cheap and try to maintain cap flexibility.
The question is whether Jennings is a good person to mentor young players. He's had kind of a care-free JR Smith-light persona about him in the past. Jrue on the other end has been a model citizem on-and-off the court. I also think that Jrue's style of play is more conducive to winning and has qualities young players ahould emulate. Not so sure that is the case with Brandon though.
do we need to cap out to do that, and win 36 games?
There are plenty of options for vet min type players that can come in and hold down the fort.
But how many of those veteran minimum types can be more than just mentors on the bench? The Andre Millers of the world (aka guys who have solid resumes) may have some wisdom to impart on developing players but their days of contributing meaningful basketball are over. So you can you think of that has some game left, with a resume AND will come here at a discount?
Why does everyone want to spend every possible dollar, and cap out? Can't we just keep some financial flexibility in case there is another Wade that leaves his team. I mean, we might have been much better off if we were Lopez, Jennings & Wade vs. Rose, Noah, Lee & Jennings.
I'm not talking about going on a mediocre free agent bonanza. I'm not sure if Jrue Holiday alone would cap us out. If he does, then I'd have to reconsider.
But I do agree with you that last offseason was a collosal mistake and I argued as much as it was unfurling. Gambling on Rose was fine. Giving up assets to gamble on Rose was not. Gambling on Joakim Noah was alright. Gambling on Joakim Noah long-term was not. It seems that regardless of who is in charge, we keep making the same dumb attempts to try and win in the immediate, only to have it blow up in our faces in a spectacular fashion. The sad thing is that we actually had a strong offseason the year before, which had offered a glimmer of hope.
We have $76M committed in 2017-2018 & 2018-2019.
The cap next year is going to be around $103M.
So is Holiday the only major move you want to make for the next two years?
Are we keeping Jennings? At $10M for 3-4 years, I would I think.
I'd rather us add 2-3 guys around $10M ea that do a lot of little things - like defend, pass first PG- and keep some flexibility so we can facilitate a trade and pick up a draft pick, we can sign someone like a Wade that leaves an organization, or a talent that is left out because of numbers, etc.
Yes, Melo has an opt out in 2018-2019. Do you think he is going to exercise that? Who is lining up to give him another deal? If it's Phil Jackson, I'm going to buy a ticket and strangle him at the next game. Maybe he does.
Then we might have enough room for 2 max deals, right as Porzingis starts to come into his own - but not if we sign Holiday for stupid money this off season.
Then you're right; Holiday shouldn't even be considered. But this is indicative of just how bad that Noah contract is. If he wasn't on the team, I'd be inclined to roll the dice on Holiday but not with Noah locked in long-term.
yellowboy90 wrote:I'd rather trade for Tim Frazier and sign TeodiscI would love for the Knicks to get Frazier.
CrushAlot wrote:http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18496...
That would leave only Sacramento, Philadelphia, New York, and perhaps Orlando as big-money suitors in dire need of a point guard. The Sixers will take a hard look at Holiday, sources say; he fits what they need around Ben Simmons, and the hilariousness of Philly bringing Holiday back after flipping him to start The Process is irresistible. Orlando has expressed interest in Dragic, sources have said, but Elfrid Payton has surged over the last month.If the Pelicans can nab Holiday for $15 million or so, that might be their best option, even with his scary injury history. Commit to Davis at center, and spend every other asset searching for shooting and cheapo bigs who can absorb some punishment when Davis needs a break. One realistic exception: If Teague bolts Indiana, New Orleans should be prepared to spend extra on him. He's more reliable, and he spent years conducting Mike Budenholzer's side-to-side orchestra.
Holiday at that salary would give New Orleans some flexibility in 2018 and beyond. He's also good, and the Pelicans can't exactly be super-picky with good players who want to be in New Orleans.
I would say at this point keep Melo
And offer Jru Holiday a max contract
Look to the draft for players who can help fix our perimeter defense three point shooting and toughness
Jru holiday to me is our high priority transaction and if that includes giving his brother a 3-4 year deal so be it
The guy is 27 and now playing at a superstar type level from the pg position. It's a no brainer. Whatever the money is pay it
BRIGGS wrote:This should be priority one
I would say at this point keep Melo
And offer Jru Holiday a max contract
Look to the draft for players who can help fix our perimeter defense three point shooting and toughnessJru holiday to me is our high priority transaction and if that includes giving his brother a 3-4 year deal so be it
The guy is 27 and now playing at a superstar type level from the pg position. It's a no brainer. Whatever the money is pay it
Jrue Holiday is a league average player and you want to lock him (and his brother) up to a long term, big money deal? Jrue would be just another player in a long line of starphuching that doesn't improve the team at all.
VCoug wrote:BRIGGS wrote:This should be priority one
I would say at this point keep Melo
And offer Jru Holiday a max contract
Look to the draft for players who can help fix our perimeter defense three point shooting and toughnessJru holiday to me is our high priority transaction and if that includes giving his brother a 3-4 year deal so be it
The guy is 27 and now playing at a superstar type level from the pg position. It's a no brainer. Whatever the money is pay itJrue Holiday is a league average player and you want to lock him (and his brother) up to a long term, big money deal? Jrue would be just another player in a long line of starphuching that doesn't improve the team at all.
Jru holiday started the season late. At this point he is playing like an all star In the last 20 years we haven't got a player like this through free agency. We spent 300 mm on leer and Noah. Nope the way holiday is dominating right now he's better than any current Kbick by a longshot Hoping draft picks pan out isn't the only avenue. We need free agency but we haven't used it well. It's been desperately miscalculated. This is a no brainer. It would be my move. Max contract at 12:01
BRIGGS wrote:VCoug wrote:BRIGGS wrote:This should be priority one
I would say at this point keep Melo
And offer Jru Holiday a max contract
Look to the draft for players who can help fix our perimeter defense three point shooting and toughnessJru holiday to me is our high priority transaction and if that includes giving his brother a 3-4 year deal so be it
The guy is 27 and now playing at a superstar type level from the pg position. It's a no brainer. Whatever the money is pay itJrue Holiday is a league average player and you want to lock him (and his brother) up to a long term, big money deal? Jrue would be just another player in a long line of starphuching that doesn't improve the team at all.
Jru holiday started the season late. At this point he is playing like an all star In the last 20 years we haven't got a player like this through free agency. We spent 300 mm on leer and Noah. Nope the way holiday is dominating right now he's better than any current Kbick by a longshot Hoping draft picks pan out isn't the only avenue. We need free agency but we haven't used it well. It's been desperately miscalculated. This is a no brainer. It would be my move. Max contract at 12:01
2016-17 Career League Average
TS% 0.545 0.516 0.551
eFG 0.522 0.484 0.512
ORtg 105 102
DRtg 108 107
WS/48 0.094 0.079 0.087
OWS 1 1.2 0.9
DWS 1.4 1.8 0.8
WS 2.4 3 1.8
OBPM 1.9 1.2
DBPM 0.2 -0.3
VORP 1.3 1.4
He's the very definition of average.
newyorker4ever wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:BRIGGS wrote:I'd give him an offer 4 years 100mm. 25 mm per for 4
We just spent 30 mm per for Noah and Lee. We pay Rose over 20 mm. Paying Holiday 25 mm is reasonable for a guy who when he is healthy is an upper tier pg.
Maybe we should look at how much the smart teams are paying players and try to follow that rather than repeating our own mistakes.The smart teams? I'm guessing the Spurs would top your list of smart teams and they way overpaid for Danny Green.
Danny Green is/was a 3 and D wing player. He was resigned because
1) The market for effective wing players, even marginal ones, is generally robust.
2) The Spurs were trying to maximize their contention window with Tim Duncan on the edge of retirement.
3) Green had an established rapport with the long time Spurs core unit, which offered understood abilities and expectations that factored into team chemisty
4) As the cap would naturally rise, the scope of the deal would normalize given relative cost of a 3 and D wing in the future
If Jrue Holiday could defend the rim and/or play elite wing defense and drop 3s at an elite rate, then I'd say, sure, a slight overpay or even a moderate overpay might not be the worst thing in the world. However he's a point guard, non elite, out of his cost controlled cycle. He also has an injury history and likely entering his decline phase. Point guards have the lowest positional value of any position in the entire league.
Modern NBA draft history, trade history and FA history shows you can mine the PG position from all over the place. This is not as true for elite pivots and wings. This is no different than the NFL, where elite left tackles and QB1 prospects tend to come at the very top of the draft class. But you can find safeties and linebackers who are very useful all over the draft board.
The Knicks overpaying Jrue Holiday would be like the NY Jets having the top pick in the draft and taking a linebacker, or a safety, or a fullback. Instead of an elite QB1, left tackle or defensive line prospect.
A lot of wings and wing prospects are misses. No doubt, but they re misses taken in line with general marketplace conditions in consideration.
Can you get 75 percent of the production at 15 percent of the cost? With a rim protecting pivot who can score enough to be a factor in a game, the answer is very very rarely. But a point guard? Happens literally all the time. Why pay max money when you don't have to do so?
A short stretch of good games isn't something built into concrete. (Kevin Maas anyone? )
A coach has to think about today. A GM has to think about tomorrow. You can't have a GM that rationalizes personnel like a coach.
Hmm, it seems C Ajinca ($4mil) and SG E'Twaun Moore ($8mil) were kept out of the Pelicans last game for 'personal reasons' so, the likely deal is those two and their first rounder for OK4. Good deal for the Sixers, pretty bad for the Pelicans. For us this isn't great as it rules out Sixers as a dumping ground for Crawford if we end up doing the Clippers deal.
smackeddog wrote:Sixers wanted him for OK4, Pelicans wanted to keep him and trade their pick for OK4- Sixers sat OK4 in their last game due to trade talks heating up so I guess we'll find out soon. It would be nice if the Pelicans traded their first to the Sixers, then the Sixers traded that to us for Rose- ha! It's crazy though- if they do do that deal with the Pelicans, they could have up to THREE first rounders in the top of the draft (their own, Lakers if they fall outside of the top 3 and then the pelicans)Hmm, it seems C Ajinca ($4mil) and SG E'Twaun Moore ($8mil) were kept out of the Pelicans last game for 'personal reasons' so, the likely deal is those two and their first rounder for OK4. Good deal for the Sixers, pretty bad for the Pelicans. For us this isn't great as it rules out Sixers as a dumping ground for Crawford if we end up doing the Clippers deal.
Bonn1997 wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:he is an average basketball player. I thought he had potential but hasn't improved like I thought and paying him $20m when he has had injury issues is a huge gamble.
Yeah terrible gamble. If we can't attract legit max contract players, we need to do small deals and gradually build a team that can attract them. We can't keep paying players double what they're worth.
You can overpay on short term deals because you need to spend so much of the cap anyway. You want to give Holiday a max deal for 2 years fine , you just cant do 4 years 100 million it hamstrings the team long term.Briggs may be right, advanced stats show Holiday as a max player by supply and demand. The problem is the gap between Holiday and a real max player like Westbrook is wider than than the differance between Holiday and an 10 million dollar PG. You add in the injury history your risking destroying the franchise for 4 years. The Knicks need to maintain flexibility. Absorb a bad contract for 2 years if it means we take back first round picks. Maxing out our payroll removes those kind of opportunities. Until we find a core of young players keep going after the Euros on 5 million dollar deals, Players like Jennings looking to reestablish value, keep the roster open for 2nd rounders and Dleaguers maybe you get lucky. Sign role players and try to unload them at the deadline for more picks. Its a shame Phil didnt have anymore picks over the last 3 years, you add 2 more lottery picks to this team we would be almost there. Its unfortunate we will have to tank away another season next year but it must be done. Keep Melo but make the moves about getting younger and more athletic so when he leaves in 2 years we have a semblance of a core