Knicks · We suck. Wake up - we're not one piece away (page 4)
nyknickzingis wrote:Knicks need to rebuild the team position by position.
Way I see it they are only set at two spots. C/PF. Willy is 22, KP is 21. Also have nice backups there with O'Quinn, Kuz can play some 4 as well, and KP may be a great 5 in the future.So what we need right now is to get more younger players and longterm investments at 3, 2 and 1. Jennings, Holiday and Lee are all decent/solid stop gaps. We need some young players here.
You can't predict how good your team's young players will be. You give them an opportunity to show what they can do. And go from there. The Knicks need to do that longterm.
Im not sure those 2 at the 4 and 5 are even workable. Good athletes for the 5 but terrible for the 4. Really in this day and age we are loaded with 5's. We are without a legitimate SF. If this team is keeping Melo the goal has to be to get the most athletic defensive minded 3 they can possibly get. If we continue to get banged upfront by our terrible defenders we need wings that can lock down the 2 and 3. Really the Rose trade was frickin horrible, we gave up a fantastic contract in Lopez for a terrible Iso player in Rose. To think the best asset we got from the Bulls roster raid was Justin Holiday and we spent almost 40 million of our cap this season on that garbage. If there is anyway to move Rose, Noah, or Lee we need to do it now. Even if it means giving up a protected pick, Noah has to go. There has to be a team out there that would be willing to give up a late first to take on Rose for a playoff push.
fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:why not? This is the part that I dont get. If you have the cap space and you like the player why not?fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:This makes even less sense. You have outlined Melo's failures here but now you are waiting for him to rescue the team? Or that since Noah hasnt been a good fit now future FAs dont make sense?fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:So the simple retort is you want to keep cap space for players you have zero zilch nada none chance in signing? I mean look at the NBA and tell me what bigtime FAs have gone and signed with bad teams that didnt already have marquee talent. If this was the NFL I would 100% agree with you. The only time cap space is an asset in the NBA is when the team is already winning and has high caliber talent on the roster... unless you are waiting for the Knicks to be the Heat part II. Could be a long waitfishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:So by your logic every team that signs a high priced FA should only do so if that means they are close to contending? Sorry, but that makes zero sense. Zilch. That is just "how you feel."fishmike wrote:VCoug wrote:one has nothing to do with the other. Signing Holiday doesnt mean "OK, this is the player that leads us to a title." Only Knick fans think (and more importantly FEEL) that and they are stupid and entitled. The only question is if that player makes sense at that price tag for this team.fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:who? Who says we are one player away? I mean if I have to read a daily 'we suck' thread on the Knicks fan site maybe you can clarify us on your audience?EnySpree wrote:I just want to know who is this everybody that thinks were one player away?Figure of speech. An expression about the mindset of many.
I don't want to call anyone out because it's easy to take things out of context here.
I certainly was starting to think that earlier in the season.
To me, Phil operated that way in the off season when, in my mind, he went all in, turned the roster over again and brought in win now veterans with Rose, Noah and Lee. Yes he filled in with youth, but I think that was as much due to the fact that he had no cap left to overspend on veterans.
I think the #1 problem with this franchise is the owner, Dolan.
Phil has apparently kept him at bay, but we still seem to be catering to his desire to field a winner NOW.
Anyone arguing to sign Jrue Holiday to a max deal this Summer.
franco?
I agree with VCoug. If you are signing anyone to that kind of money ($20M), and you already have unproductive veterans (compared to their money) like Noah and Lee (to a lesser extent) and Melo who kinda wants to be here, kinda doesn't - that is $75M of our $103M cap- then you are most certainly saying - yes, that is the piece we need to be markedly better.
We're on pace to win 34 games this year.
Swapping Rose out for Holiday is going to be what, a 10 game improvement? I doubt. Lets say conservatively 5 games. Now, we're sniffing the play offs. And probably missing, or getting in and getting trounced in 4 games. And our ability to improve after that is contingent on our rookies getting better and our old guys like Noah, Melo and Lee fighting off father time in a sport dominated by athletes.
We need a plan, that isn't myopically focused on moves that can be made now for immediate satisfaction.
The plan has to be 2-3 years out. Accumulate draft picks, get some top 5/10 talent in the draft, find some gems in the 2nd round, let the guys that are here stay together for 2-3 years- and if Phil wants them to play with triangles, great - maybe in year 3 they'll have an understanding of the system. Melo can leave or assume a Paul Pierce kinda role. Maybe Noah can turn into Herb Williams on the bench and mentor Porzingas.
How is sucking with cap flexibility better than getting better by adding players? Even if they carry a high cost?
Again.. you cant get past "Jru is our savior" when in fact he may simply be a nice player the Knicks are trying to add to improve the team. You sound like a grumpy parent grounding your kids. "Knicks cant spend ANY money until this room is CLEANED!" (Even if it makes sense.)
If the Knicks are still losing should we give KP that max contract extension? Or does that also make zero sense since again we are not one player away... It doesnt matter where the players come from. If they are talented they will cost money.
You guys are turning FA into some emotional measuring stick for the team, when all it is is another way to add talent and pieces.
To me, cap space is an asset. Given where we are as a franchise, I'd rather hold on to it for use in the future, and in the near term, spread it out over 2-3 players rather than spend it on one player.
There has to be balance to the roster - I don't think you can spend $75M or about 75% of our cap on 4 players- not when three of them are on the wrong side of 30- and especially not when we're not winning games. We can lose just as easily with Jennings at $8-10M and a draft pick and Ron Baker at the PG spot.
I don't think there is a rule that says only winning teams should spend max type money on players - but we already have 2 guys that fit that description (Melo & Noah) and we're not winning.
Keep cap space open this summer. Keep flexibility.
Chris Paul has a player option in 2017/18. If we max out Holiday, we have no real chance at him. And I'm not saying we do have a shot - but I'd rather keep my options open.
I don't think it's a simple retort.
Do we have zero chance at Paul? Probably - but what if Melo finally comes through? What if we put it together next year, and KP and Willy take the next step- much more attractive destination.
Maxing someone out this summer means we've tied our hands for the following summer- unless Melo opts out.
And I think I'd have a very different perspective if Noah hasn't been such a disappointment. If Noah were hurt and showed like he might be worth his money next year, I'd have a very different approach to our cap.
We should be looking for FAs that accomplish a few things, starting with raising the play of our young players.
To me this was a learning year, and what we learned is that Melo is Melo and that DadMelo was a flash in the pants. He's still a ball holding ISO scorer and a jump shooter and not much else. He's got plenty of value around the league but not to team that is rebuilding around guys that play the same position. So #1 is to decide if we are keeping him or pushing him out. If you keep him there is some need to balance the roster and have enough guys that can win. That means spending on FAs to make this group better.
If you move Melo than you decide if you want to add pieces, or just run the youth out there and if they lose a ton of games its another lottery pick. Thats actually what most teams do as they are acquiring enough youth worth building around.
Holding out hope for Melo to fix this? Thats not his job, but would explain why so many people around here dog him.
Listen, if we can move Melo, that changes everything. I just don't see him leaving or us being able to move him.
I'm not holding out hope for Melo to save the franchise, but if there was, I'd like to have the flexibility to entertain Paul as a signing.
And my point with Noah isn't that he didn't work out, I'll never sign another FA - it's that given what our cap looks like with Noah, Lee & Melo, we can't add another max type deal and have 75% of our cap locked into just 4 players.
Think it through.. Melo goes nowhere. Knicks keep Lee. Rose walks. Knicks have $25mm in cap space. You just let it sit instead of trying to go out and get guys? The cap has changed... Melo's got 2 years left. He will be gone before we have to resign Willy and KP.
I mean once CP3 resigns with LAC whats your play? Whats your offseason plan? Sorry to needle you man, but I just dont get "we have spent, so now we shouldnt" when you may have a chance to add a nice piece to your team moving forward.
George Hill is really good but always hurt. He could be added, but costly. Jeff Teague is really good also. Patty Mills could be a good fit. We know what we are getting from Rose... all those guys are going to cost a ton of money. Whats your play? Be OK with stinking and drafting or are you willing to spend enough to get one of these guys in or back to help the backcourt?
You can overpay just make sure the deal isnt long. You are forced to spend the cap money anyway just dont do it for 3 or 4 years
Jmpasq wrote:fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:why not? This is the part that I dont get. If you have the cap space and you like the player why not?fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:This makes even less sense. You have outlined Melo's failures here but now you are waiting for him to rescue the team? Or that since Noah hasnt been a good fit now future FAs dont make sense?fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:So the simple retort is you want to keep cap space for players you have zero zilch nada none chance in signing? I mean look at the NBA and tell me what bigtime FAs have gone and signed with bad teams that didnt already have marquee talent. If this was the NFL I would 100% agree with you. The only time cap space is an asset in the NBA is when the team is already winning and has high caliber talent on the roster... unless you are waiting for the Knicks to be the Heat part II. Could be a long waitfishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:So by your logic every team that signs a high priced FA should only do so if that means they are close to contending? Sorry, but that makes zero sense. Zilch. That is just "how you feel."fishmike wrote:VCoug wrote:one has nothing to do with the other. Signing Holiday doesnt mean "OK, this is the player that leads us to a title." Only Knick fans think (and more importantly FEEL) that and they are stupid and entitled. The only question is if that player makes sense at that price tag for this team.fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:who? Who says we are one player away? I mean if I have to read a daily 'we suck' thread on the Knicks fan site maybe you can clarify us on your audience?EnySpree wrote:I just want to know who is this everybody that thinks were one player away?Figure of speech. An expression about the mindset of many.
I don't want to call anyone out because it's easy to take things out of context here.
I certainly was starting to think that earlier in the season.
To me, Phil operated that way in the off season when, in my mind, he went all in, turned the roster over again and brought in win now veterans with Rose, Noah and Lee. Yes he filled in with youth, but I think that was as much due to the fact that he had no cap left to overspend on veterans.
I think the #1 problem with this franchise is the owner, Dolan.
Phil has apparently kept him at bay, but we still seem to be catering to his desire to field a winner NOW.
Anyone arguing to sign Jrue Holiday to a max deal this Summer.
franco?
I agree with VCoug. If you are signing anyone to that kind of money ($20M), and you already have unproductive veterans (compared to their money) like Noah and Lee (to a lesser extent) and Melo who kinda wants to be here, kinda doesn't - that is $75M of our $103M cap- then you are most certainly saying - yes, that is the piece we need to be markedly better.
We're on pace to win 34 games this year.
Swapping Rose out for Holiday is going to be what, a 10 game improvement? I doubt. Lets say conservatively 5 games. Now, we're sniffing the play offs. And probably missing, or getting in and getting trounced in 4 games. And our ability to improve after that is contingent on our rookies getting better and our old guys like Noah, Melo and Lee fighting off father time in a sport dominated by athletes.
We need a plan, that isn't myopically focused on moves that can be made now for immediate satisfaction.
The plan has to be 2-3 years out. Accumulate draft picks, get some top 5/10 talent in the draft, find some gems in the 2nd round, let the guys that are here stay together for 2-3 years- and if Phil wants them to play with triangles, great - maybe in year 3 they'll have an understanding of the system. Melo can leave or assume a Paul Pierce kinda role. Maybe Noah can turn into Herb Williams on the bench and mentor Porzingas.
How is sucking with cap flexibility better than getting better by adding players? Even if they carry a high cost?
Again.. you cant get past "Jru is our savior" when in fact he may simply be a nice player the Knicks are trying to add to improve the team. You sound like a grumpy parent grounding your kids. "Knicks cant spend ANY money until this room is CLEANED!" (Even if it makes sense.)
If the Knicks are still losing should we give KP that max contract extension? Or does that also make zero sense since again we are not one player away... It doesnt matter where the players come from. If they are talented they will cost money.
You guys are turning FA into some emotional measuring stick for the team, when all it is is another way to add talent and pieces.
To me, cap space is an asset. Given where we are as a franchise, I'd rather hold on to it for use in the future, and in the near term, spread it out over 2-3 players rather than spend it on one player.
There has to be balance to the roster - I don't think you can spend $75M or about 75% of our cap on 4 players- not when three of them are on the wrong side of 30- and especially not when we're not winning games. We can lose just as easily with Jennings at $8-10M and a draft pick and Ron Baker at the PG spot.
I don't think there is a rule that says only winning teams should spend max type money on players - but we already have 2 guys that fit that description (Melo & Noah) and we're not winning.
Keep cap space open this summer. Keep flexibility.
Chris Paul has a player option in 2017/18. If we max out Holiday, we have no real chance at him. And I'm not saying we do have a shot - but I'd rather keep my options open.
I don't think it's a simple retort.
Do we have zero chance at Paul? Probably - but what if Melo finally comes through? What if we put it together next year, and KP and Willy take the next step- much more attractive destination.
Maxing someone out this summer means we've tied our hands for the following summer- unless Melo opts out.
And I think I'd have a very different perspective if Noah hasn't been such a disappointment. If Noah were hurt and showed like he might be worth his money next year, I'd have a very different approach to our cap.
We should be looking for FAs that accomplish a few things, starting with raising the play of our young players.
To me this was a learning year, and what we learned is that Melo is Melo and that DadMelo was a flash in the pants. He's still a ball holding ISO scorer and a jump shooter and not much else. He's got plenty of value around the league but not to team that is rebuilding around guys that play the same position. So #1 is to decide if we are keeping him or pushing him out. If you keep him there is some need to balance the roster and have enough guys that can win. That means spending on FAs to make this group better.
If you move Melo than you decide if you want to add pieces, or just run the youth out there and if they lose a ton of games its another lottery pick. Thats actually what most teams do as they are acquiring enough youth worth building around.
Holding out hope for Melo to fix this? Thats not his job, but would explain why so many people around here dog him.
Listen, if we can move Melo, that changes everything. I just don't see him leaving or us being able to move him.
I'm not holding out hope for Melo to save the franchise, but if there was, I'd like to have the flexibility to entertain Paul as a signing.
And my point with Noah isn't that he didn't work out, I'll never sign another FA - it's that given what our cap looks like with Noah, Lee & Melo, we can't add another max type deal and have 75% of our cap locked into just 4 players.
Think it through.. Melo goes nowhere. Knicks keep Lee. Rose walks. Knicks have $25mm in cap space. You just let it sit instead of trying to go out and get guys? The cap has changed... Melo's got 2 years left. He will be gone before we have to resign Willy and KP.
I mean once CP3 resigns with LAC whats your play? Whats your offseason plan? Sorry to needle you man, but I just dont get "we have spent, so now we shouldnt" when you may have a chance to add a nice piece to your team moving forward.
George Hill is really good but always hurt. He could be added, but costly. Jeff Teague is really good also. Patty Mills could be a good fit. We know what we are getting from Rose... all those guys are going to cost a ton of money. Whats your play? Be OK with stinking and drafting or are you willing to spend enough to get one of these guys in or back to help the backcourt?
You can overpay just make sure the deal isnt long. You are forced to spend the cap money anyway just dont do it for 3 or 4 years
And then he's an FA in 1 or 2 years and you overpay again? That's not what the best teams are doing IMO. And they're definitely not giving long-term max deals to guys like Holiday.
Bonn1997 wrote:Jmpasq wrote:fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:why not? This is the part that I dont get. If you have the cap space and you like the player why not?fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:This makes even less sense. You have outlined Melo's failures here but now you are waiting for him to rescue the team? Or that since Noah hasnt been a good fit now future FAs dont make sense?fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:So the simple retort is you want to keep cap space for players you have zero zilch nada none chance in signing? I mean look at the NBA and tell me what bigtime FAs have gone and signed with bad teams that didnt already have marquee talent. If this was the NFL I would 100% agree with you. The only time cap space is an asset in the NBA is when the team is already winning and has high caliber talent on the roster... unless you are waiting for the Knicks to be the Heat part II. Could be a long waitfishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:So by your logic every team that signs a high priced FA should only do so if that means they are close to contending? Sorry, but that makes zero sense. Zilch. That is just "how you feel."fishmike wrote:VCoug wrote:one has nothing to do with the other. Signing Holiday doesnt mean "OK, this is the player that leads us to a title." Only Knick fans think (and more importantly FEEL) that and they are stupid and entitled. The only question is if that player makes sense at that price tag for this team.fishmike wrote:franco12 wrote:who? Who says we are one player away? I mean if I have to read a daily 'we suck' thread on the Knicks fan site maybe you can clarify us on your audience?EnySpree wrote:I just want to know who is this everybody that thinks were one player away?Figure of speech. An expression about the mindset of many.
I don't want to call anyone out because it's easy to take things out of context here.
I certainly was starting to think that earlier in the season.
To me, Phil operated that way in the off season when, in my mind, he went all in, turned the roster over again and brought in win now veterans with Rose, Noah and Lee. Yes he filled in with youth, but I think that was as much due to the fact that he had no cap left to overspend on veterans.
I think the #1 problem with this franchise is the owner, Dolan.
Phil has apparently kept him at bay, but we still seem to be catering to his desire to field a winner NOW.
Anyone arguing to sign Jrue Holiday to a max deal this Summer.
franco?
I agree with VCoug. If you are signing anyone to that kind of money ($20M), and you already have unproductive veterans (compared to their money) like Noah and Lee (to a lesser extent) and Melo who kinda wants to be here, kinda doesn't - that is $75M of our $103M cap- then you are most certainly saying - yes, that is the piece we need to be markedly better.
We're on pace to win 34 games this year.
Swapping Rose out for Holiday is going to be what, a 10 game improvement? I doubt. Lets say conservatively 5 games. Now, we're sniffing the play offs. And probably missing, or getting in and getting trounced in 4 games. And our ability to improve after that is contingent on our rookies getting better and our old guys like Noah, Melo and Lee fighting off father time in a sport dominated by athletes.
We need a plan, that isn't myopically focused on moves that can be made now for immediate satisfaction.
The plan has to be 2-3 years out. Accumulate draft picks, get some top 5/10 talent in the draft, find some gems in the 2nd round, let the guys that are here stay together for 2-3 years- and if Phil wants them to play with triangles, great - maybe in year 3 they'll have an understanding of the system. Melo can leave or assume a Paul Pierce kinda role. Maybe Noah can turn into Herb Williams on the bench and mentor Porzingas.
How is sucking with cap flexibility better than getting better by adding players? Even if they carry a high cost?
Again.. you cant get past "Jru is our savior" when in fact he may simply be a nice player the Knicks are trying to add to improve the team. You sound like a grumpy parent grounding your kids. "Knicks cant spend ANY money until this room is CLEANED!" (Even if it makes sense.)
If the Knicks are still losing should we give KP that max contract extension? Or does that also make zero sense since again we are not one player away... It doesnt matter where the players come from. If they are talented they will cost money.
You guys are turning FA into some emotional measuring stick for the team, when all it is is another way to add talent and pieces.
To me, cap space is an asset. Given where we are as a franchise, I'd rather hold on to it for use in the future, and in the near term, spread it out over 2-3 players rather than spend it on one player.
There has to be balance to the roster - I don't think you can spend $75M or about 75% of our cap on 4 players- not when three of them are on the wrong side of 30- and especially not when we're not winning games. We can lose just as easily with Jennings at $8-10M and a draft pick and Ron Baker at the PG spot.
I don't think there is a rule that says only winning teams should spend max type money on players - but we already have 2 guys that fit that description (Melo & Noah) and we're not winning.
Keep cap space open this summer. Keep flexibility.
Chris Paul has a player option in 2017/18. If we max out Holiday, we have no real chance at him. And I'm not saying we do have a shot - but I'd rather keep my options open.
I don't think it's a simple retort.
Do we have zero chance at Paul? Probably - but what if Melo finally comes through? What if we put it together next year, and KP and Willy take the next step- much more attractive destination.
Maxing someone out this summer means we've tied our hands for the following summer- unless Melo opts out.
And I think I'd have a very different perspective if Noah hasn't been such a disappointment. If Noah were hurt and showed like he might be worth his money next year, I'd have a very different approach to our cap.
We should be looking for FAs that accomplish a few things, starting with raising the play of our young players.
To me this was a learning year, and what we learned is that Melo is Melo and that DadMelo was a flash in the pants. He's still a ball holding ISO scorer and a jump shooter and not much else. He's got plenty of value around the league but not to team that is rebuilding around guys that play the same position. So #1 is to decide if we are keeping him or pushing him out. If you keep him there is some need to balance the roster and have enough guys that can win. That means spending on FAs to make this group better.
If you move Melo than you decide if you want to add pieces, or just run the youth out there and if they lose a ton of games its another lottery pick. Thats actually what most teams do as they are acquiring enough youth worth building around.
Holding out hope for Melo to fix this? Thats not his job, but would explain why so many people around here dog him.
Listen, if we can move Melo, that changes everything. I just don't see him leaving or us being able to move him.
I'm not holding out hope for Melo to save the franchise, but if there was, I'd like to have the flexibility to entertain Paul as a signing.
And my point with Noah isn't that he didn't work out, I'll never sign another FA - it's that given what our cap looks like with Noah, Lee & Melo, we can't add another max type deal and have 75% of our cap locked into just 4 players.
Think it through.. Melo goes nowhere. Knicks keep Lee. Rose walks. Knicks have $25mm in cap space. You just let it sit instead of trying to go out and get guys? The cap has changed... Melo's got 2 years left. He will be gone before we have to resign Willy and KP.
I mean once CP3 resigns with LAC whats your play? Whats your offseason plan? Sorry to needle you man, but I just dont get "we have spent, so now we shouldnt" when you may have a chance to add a nice piece to your team moving forward.
George Hill is really good but always hurt. He could be added, but costly. Jeff Teague is really good also. Patty Mills could be a good fit. We know what we are getting from Rose... all those guys are going to cost a ton of money. Whats your play? Be OK with stinking and drafting or are you willing to spend enough to get one of these guys in or back to help the backcourt?
You can overpay just make sure the deal isnt long. You are forced to spend the cap money anyway just dont do it for 3 or 4 years
And then he's an FA in 1 or 2 years and you overpay again? That's not what the best teams are doing IMO. And they're definitely not giving long-term max deals to guys like Holiday.
we need to be preserving minutes for guys that can grow with Willy, Kuz, KOQ, and KP. There's room for signings but I think misallocating our minutes to guys that are already at their peak instead of approaching their peak would be a huge mistake