Knicks · Everybody that comes here!!! is a Bad fit or has to be traded but Melo (page 2)
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CrushAlot wrote:arkrud wrote:He was talking about this year with Rose/Jennings. You are right about the same player though. The difference is one tenth. On nba.com he is plus 1/10 on Fox he is minus 1/10. I don't know why there is a difference or who is more accurate as a site but I wouldn't bring it up as a fault of Melo's. Both teams suck and have one guy that get buckets.CrushAlot wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:CrushAlot wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Link?Vmart wrote:fishmike wrote:Vmart wrote:yes... giving him a new role and him accepting a new role are two different things. The latter isnt happening and to think it is is utter follyBRIGGS wrote:I'd rather keep melo unless we get good value. Otherwise a good new role for him next year is still a good optionThat's not an option. He has to go so the team can turn the corner and define the next franchise player/players; he is actually a detriment to their growth.
The Knicks have tried to get Melo to change his game and are basically exhausted from asking him to change. Now the inevitable breaking point is here. How is he even going to change his role at this point. Another futile attempt to get him to buy in.
Melo's usage rate went up this year despite adding Rose Jennings
Go to basketball reference or NBA.com
Look up Melo advanced stats
His usage rate actually went up this season
Not by much
But shocking stillYou add Rose, KP is better this year as a scorer and BJ is added ... Noah is a great passer yet Melo plays the EXACT same game. This is on Melo as well. Yes his team mates deserve blame but so does Melo.
I went to Fox and it didn't match what you said. That was why I asked for a link.Usage is slightly less but in general he is same player... how anyone can expect otherwise?
Usage% 2pt%# 3pt%# eFG% OReb% DReb% Ast% Stl% Blk%
2015-16 New York Knicks SF 29.7 46.0 33.8 47.4 4.0 18.3 15.5 1.1 0.8
2014-15 New York Knicks SF 32.2 47.1 34.0 48.2 5.2 15.0 11.8 1.3 0.7
Wait what?
We suck defensively which Melo is also a part of the problem of.
On offense we are fine. We have enough scorers that if Melo shared the ball, aimed to play a 18 points/5 assists game that Rose and KP would be able to more as would Lee. The team would have been even better on offense, and maybe with sharing the ball they play more defense.
I know this team is not any good but it's not a team that Melo has to carry at all. He chooses to play this way. This team has a 18 point a night scorer in KP who is being underused and Rose is scoring at will on drives. Lee is one of the best shooters in the league. Come on, Melo does not have to carry this team. He chooses to play this way because it is who he is. His assists are DOWN this year. We are scoring more points, taking more shots than last year. Yet his assists are down. The reason is not that he can't pass, it's that he is not interested in playing a game like that. He loves to isolate, hold the ball long and stall the game into getting his rhythm. It makes him look good, great even at times. However it hurts teammates effectiveness and ryhthm. The best he plays is when he plays like Dad Melo. Which is not consistent at all this season. Last season in the first half he was playing great. He was in dad Melo mode. Had career high in assists. That's part of the reason the team did so well at 22-22.
Melo's who he is. I've accepted it. It makes building a team around him very tough. You may just have to go the Sixers/Allen Iverson route where you build a defensive team that caters to a ball dominant isolation scorer. Phil didn't try to build this kind of team and it was a mistake for the short run but it was also because those kind of teams would never win a title. Teams that win a title have 2-3 players sharing the ball and playing at a very high level and role players that play great off them. Phil's made mistakes with moves he's made but he's tried to install a system that encourages ball movement and player movement, sort of like what Golden State and San Antonio do. The difference is we have a ball stopper, two in Rose. We can not run system basketball at an elite level so long as we have high usage perimter players who do not move the ball.
nyknickzingis wrote:He has been in ny for 6+ years. When he was younger he could drag the team into the playoffs despite the roster. If he is your guy, the guy you give a ntc, a trade kicker and an almost max deal to you build around him. Dakich made some great points about Melo the other night as did JVG. I posted them in response to your Melo faults post but you never responded. You don't sign a guy to a deal like that if you aren't building around him. His deal isn't movable. He also is the best player on the team currently.CrushAlot wrote:arkrud wrote:He was talking about this year with Rose/Jennings. You are right about the same player though. The difference is one tenth. On nba.com he is plus 1/10 on Fox he is minus 1/10. I don't know why there is a difference or who is more accurate as a site but I wouldn't bring it up as a fault of Melo's. Both teams suck and have one guy that get buckets.CrushAlot wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:CrushAlot wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Link?Vmart wrote:fishmike wrote:Vmart wrote:yes... giving him a new role and him accepting a new role are two different things. The latter isnt happening and to think it is is utter follyBRIGGS wrote:I'd rather keep melo unless we get good value. Otherwise a good new role for him next year is still a good optionThat's not an option. He has to go so the team can turn the corner and define the next franchise player/players; he is actually a detriment to their growth.
The Knicks have tried to get Melo to change his game and are basically exhausted from asking him to change. Now the inevitable breaking point is here. How is he even going to change his role at this point. Another futile attempt to get him to buy in.
Melo's usage rate went up this year despite adding Rose Jennings
Go to basketball reference or NBA.com
Look up Melo advanced stats
His usage rate actually went up this season
Not by much
But shocking stillYou add Rose, KP is better this year as a scorer and BJ is added ... Noah is a great passer yet Melo plays the EXACT same game. This is on Melo as well. Yes his team mates deserve blame but so does Melo.
I went to Fox and it didn't match what you said. That was why I asked for a link.Usage is slightly less but in general he is same player... how anyone can expect otherwise?
Usage% 2pt%# 3pt%# eFG% OReb% DReb% Ast% Stl% Blk%
2015-16 New York Knicks SF 29.7 46.0 33.8 47.4 4.0 18.3 15.5 1.1 0.8
2014-15 New York Knicks SF 32.2 47.1 34.0 48.2 5.2 15.0 11.8 1.3 0.7
Wait what?
We suck defensively which Melo is also a part of the problem of.On offense we are fine. We have enough scorers that if Melo shared the ball, aimed to play a 18 points/5 assists game that Rose and KP would be able to more as would Lee. The team would have been even better on offense, and maybe with sharing the ball they play more defense.
I know this team is not any good but it's not a team that Melo has to carry at all. He chooses to play this way. This team has a 18 point a night scorer in KP who is being underused and Rose is scoring at will on drives. Lee is one of the best shooters in the league. Come on, Melo does not have to carry this team. He chooses to play this way because it is who he is. His assists are DOWN this year. We are scoring more points, taking more shots than last year. Yet his assists are down. The reason is not that he can't pass, it's that he is not interested in playing a game like that. He loves to isolate, hold the ball long and stall the game into getting his rhythm. It makes him look good, great even at times. However it hurts teammates effectiveness and ryhthm. The best he plays is when he plays like Dad Melo. Which is not consistent at all this season. Last season in the first half he was playing great. He was in dad Melo mode. Had career high in assists. That's part of the reason the team did so well at 22-22.
Melo's who he is. I've accepted it. It makes building a team around him very tough. You may just have to go the Sixers/Allen Iverson route where you build a defensive team that caters to a ball dominant isolation scorer. Phil didn't try to build this kind of team and it was a mistake for the short run but it was also because those kind of teams would never win a title. Teams that win a title have 2-3 players sharing the ball and playing at a very high level and role players that play great off them.
To run a good clean consistent system like that you need perimeter players that will move the ball and move off the ball. Melo stays in one spot usually (Not much of an off the ball mover) and loves to hold on to the ball. The teams that Phil had coached had players like Melo (better players but similar in that they had great isolation skills) but whom figured out how to get their points within the system and also allow teammates to succeed in the team's system.
I do concede the other part of your post, Crush. Yes Phil should have built a defensive team around Melo if he was signing Melo to a NTC, 5 year deal. If Phil wasn't interested in building a team like that he should have never kept Melo. However once again, I think Phil believed Melo would do what Kobe did and that's change his game a little for the system. The funny thing is Melo did, for a quarter of a season last year. He was leading the team in assists at one point, had career low in points per game. The team which was less talented than this year's team was playing better with dad Melo. He has it in him, but he reverts and refuses to play like that on a consistent basis.
The real bummer is Melo has all the tools and skills to be a 20 point 5 assist a night player who plays great in a system. He refuses to play this way. All his coaches have said this. From D'Antoni. Georeg Karl. Hornachek won't say it now, but I bet you after he's not coaching Melo, he'll cop to it as well. The right way for the team this year was to allow Rose/Jennings to call the shots and Melo to take a big backseat. He didn't do that. He came into the season to score and shoot, and continue his 23+ ppg career average. That's fine, but I also see why Phil had enough and put him on the block. At some point a player has to prioritize winning. Melo neither cares about winning in terms of his style of play, nor the city he plays in. He is fine being a great scorer on a bad team in NY rest of his career. How can anyone support that as your franchise guy? I just don't get it.
nyknickzingis wrote:I think Phil made the mistake of thinking Melo would adapt to team ball and play in a system similar to that of San Antonio or Golden State. What Hornachek is running is a modern version of the Triangle with more pick and rolls. The thing is we don't consistently run it, we often go into isolation mode. Kristaps said it many times as have others. That's what the team does not play 36-40 minutes of system ball. They'll run it half a game then revert into isolation ball.Great post. I agree with everything you said. I wonder how things would have gone if the Knicks only brought in Jennings and kept Grant. I am not a Phil fan but I really like the Hornacek hire. I wish Rambis was off the staff. I think Jeff with autonomy would be a lot more successful. I also think if you hire Jeff you need three quality point guards on the roster. Also, I think it is time for Melo to go. I just get frustrated when his skills are minimized and he is blamed for the mistakes of management of the Knicks. Melo is aging out but he was an amazing talent. He isn't LBJ but he was one of the best players of his era. Everyone knows what Melo is and isn't. If he is your guy you build the team to compliment that.To run a good clean consistent system like that you need perimeter players that will move the ball and move off the ball. Melo stays in one spot usually (Not much of an off the ball mover) and loves to hold on to the ball. The teams that Phil had coached had players like Melo (better players but similar in that they had great isolation skills) but whom figured out how to get their points within the system and also allow teammates to succeed in the team's system.
I do concede the other part of your post, Crush. Yes Phil should have built a defensive team around Melo if he was signing Melo to a NTC, 5 year deal. If Phil wasn't interested in building a team like that he should have never kept Melo. However once again, I think Phil believed Melo would do what Kobe did and that's change his game a little for the system. The funny thing is Melo did, for a quarter of a season last year. He was leading the team in assists at one point, had career low in points per game. The team which was less talented than this year's team was playing better with dad Melo. He has it in him, but he reverts and refuses to play like that on a consistent basis.
The real bummer is Melo has all the tools and skills to be a 20 point 5 assist a night player who plays great in a system. He refuses to play this way. All his coaches have said this. From D'Antoni. Georeg Karl. Hornachek won't say it now, but I bet you after he's not coaching Melo, he'll cop to it as well. The right way for the team this year was to allow Rose/Jennings to call the shots and Melo to take a big backseat. He didn't do that. He came into the season to score and shoot, and continue his 23+ ppg career average. That's fine, but I also see why Phil had enough and put him on the block. At some point a player has to prioritize winning. Melo neither cares about winning in terms of his style of play, nor the city he plays in. He is fine being a great scorer on a bad team in NY rest of his career. How can anyone support that as your franchise guy? I just don't get it.
His defense leaves a lot to be desired. I think Rambis has bad everyone a worse defender but Melo has not given enough effort on most nights on that side of the ball.
RE: Phil's Roster construction
What I was hoping for was a team that Portland built around Aldridge. When you have a stationary player you build a team around him that moves. When he isolates there still needs to be players that cut and set screens for each other on the weak side to create clearer passing lanes.
nyknickzingis wrote:I think Phil made the mistake of thinking Melo would adapt to team ball and play in a system similar to that of San Antonio or Golden State.
I think Phil Jackson had designs to run the LA Lakers. But Young Idiot Buss won the power struggle with his sister, and Jackson would not be the default show runner with Jeannie Buss handling the business side of the franchise.
The Knicks had a "clumsy" roster. He said so himself before they offered him a boat load of cash. He took a cushy retirement plan with the Knicks, if he failed, which he was likely to do in this situation, he could blame Dolan and Melo for it. ( Not that he'd be wrong in that regard)
I think Jackson knew exactly what Melo was and was not ( i.e. a selfish shotjacker who refuses to play defense and team basketball) and simply let it all ride out as he expected while cashing fat checks.
Melo has gotten pretty much everything he has wanted from the Knicks, and where has it gotten the franchise?
fishmike wrote:Vmart wrote:yes... giving him a new role and him accepting a new role are two different things. The latter isnt happening and to think it is is utter follyBRIGGS wrote:I'd rather keep melo unless we get good value. Otherwise a good new role for him next year is still a good optionThat's not an option. He has to go so the team can turn the corner and define the next franchise player/players; he is actually a detriment to their growth.
Has anybody else on the team stepped up?
yellowboy90 wrote:What is really interesting is that Melo is putting up numbers close to his NY Playoff days when it comes to shooting . The real problem is he is not getting to the line as much. However, if he continues on the track he has been on these last two months he will be at a respectable level. He really needs to work on becoming a top notch Ft shooter now that he is older and not getting to the line as much. He needs to be 89%+ or higher. I do agree with Dakich though that Melo really gets beat up and that probably impacts his FT shooting.
His defense leaves a lot to be desired. I think Rambis has bad everyone a worse defender but Melo has not given enough effort on most nights on that side of the ball.RE: Phil's Roster construction
What I was hoping for was a team that Portland built around Aldridge. When you have a stationary player you build a team around him that moves. When he isolates there still needs to be players that cut and set screens for each other on the weak side to create clearer passing lanes.
Been saying this for weeks, when he gets that ball in his sweet spot, everybody stops moving, ,he waits a few seconds for the double to come and by then the passing lanes are are narrow, and little margin for error.
This is the problem with this board. You have two guys who suck but you rather break apart the game of the best player on the team. Totally ignoring the real issues keeping us from winning. Yeah, I know, Rose, Noah, Lee, Kuz, Baker, KO can be great, if not for Melo. Can anyone tell me how many playoff appearances we have had since 2000? How many with Melo and how many without? Then tell me who has been on the roster, with Melo, that have gone on to do anything but be a bench or role player? The only ones I can think of are the ones Uncle Phil thought were toxic.
Melo, KP, Willy and Holiday are the only three players that would have a spot on a good NBA roster. Period! How bout we cut the Bullshit about how good the othet guys surrounding him were or are.
And if you think anyone else but Melo can carry this team, your dreaming.
Btw, I agree he is doing much more Iso this year. But it may be because Rose is a black hole. Not to mention KP has become a quick shooter. Rarely looks to set anyone else up. Specially when he takes those 30 footers. Best lineup I think, for him, is Willy, Holiday, Jennings and LT.